28 Film Discussion Threads Later [Archive] - Page 22

MadMan

01-16-2008, 03:16 AM

Posted from another board are the thoughts I wrote on the Val Lewton films I spent all night watching:

First bunch, posted around 3 am-

Tonight TCM aired some of the films from Val Lewton, along with a documentary about the man's work and life narrated by Martin Scoressee, which was really cool. I actually saw The Leopard Man for the second time and liked it a lot more, and thus upped my rating of the film from a 5.0 to a 7.0. I'd actually place it above the interesting but somewhat muddled I Walked With a Zombie, which they also showed along with Cat People earlier tonight. After a second showing of the documentary they screened The Seventh Victim, which was rather disappointing and cheesy despite having a solid premise. I tried to view Curse of the Cat People which is on right now, but I just simply lost interest all together and am currently waiting for The Body Snatcher to start. That's a film I've been wanting to see for some time now, along with the film that will follow it, The Isle of the Dead-although I don't know if I'll have time to watch that one since I have class earlier in the morning on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I'll report back later but so far I think Lewton did his best work with Jacques Tourneur and its a damn shame that RKO seperated the two.

Around 5 am:

The Body Snatcher was pretty darn good, which is remarkable for a Lewton film that didn't have Jacques Tourneur at the helm-but Robert Wise was behind the camera, which partly explains why the finished product was satisifying. Borris Karloff is delicious as the personalification of evil, having fun with a rather dark and sinister part as the title character, and thus stealing the film from the other, lesser known actors. Although the others were decent in their parts and the film featured a great deal of thought provoking moral ambiguity and ethical qualms, without Karloff the movie wouldn't have been half as good nor deserving of the somewhat generous 8.0 I gave it. I say that because the film did drag in some parts, and the film's ending came a couple scenes too late. Still I think this one of my favorites among the Lewton horror flicks and is one that I would like to see again.

Right now I've made time for Isle of the Dead, which also has Karloff. So far the film seems decent at best, but the premise and some of the subtitle themes and atmosphere are holding it up. Plus the premise is rather unique. I'd love to get my hands on the Val Lewton collection.

After finishing Isle=Despite being somewhat sluggish in parts and featuring a rather weak cast, the film achieves a rather chlostrophobic, depressing and dark atmosphere. How people deal with death and when faced with the possibility of dying in a horrible fashion (the characters are stuck on an island full of plague) is illustrated well here in the usual Lewton fashion. To me the use of shadows, eeriely crafted moments, showing horrible things offscreen to up their effect and creating a great sense of dread are all why I love the Lewton collaborations he had with different directors. They're all showcased here in a film that is more solid than truly good, but still one that is good even though Borris Karloff is really not utilized at all here.

Oh and ratings for all of the films:

Cat People-8.5
I Walked With a Zombie-7.0
The Leopard Man-7.0
The Seventh Victim-4.5
Curse of the Cat People-I wasn't able to finish it. Maybe I'll give the film another shot someday.
The Body Snatcher-8.0
The Isle of the Dead-7.5
Curse of the Demon-8.0

I want to see Bedlam and Ghost Ship next.

Raiders

01-16-2008, 03:17 AM

:|

The Seventh Victim is my favorite Lewton film.

megladon8

01-16-2008, 03:18 AM

Awesome, MadMan! Those are some of the best examples of atmospheric and gothic horror ever.

The Body Snatcher is one of my personal faves, and it was wicked to see Karloff and Lugosi on screen together.

Cat People is surprisingly creepy considering the premise, and it's beautifully shot.

MadMan

01-16-2008, 03:25 AM

:|

The Seventh Victim is my favorite Lewton film.One would think a movie featuring Satantic worshippers wouldn't bore the hell out of me, but it did. At least I discovered one of the possible inspirations for what is one of the most beautiful horror films ever, Suspira.

Awesome, MadMan! Those are some of the best examples of atmospheric and gothic horror ever.

The Body Snatcher is one of my personal faves, and it was wicked to see Karloff and Lugosi on screen together.

Cat People is surprisingly creepy considering the premise, and it's beautifully shot.Yeah I was surprised when I saw Lugosi's name in the credits. I liked the scene that him and Karloff had together.

And of course Cat People rules. The pool scene is easily the best and most eerie part about that film.

megladon8

01-16-2008, 03:27 AM

And of course Cat People rules. The pool scene is easily the best and most eerie part about that film.

Yep, it's the one that sticks out in my mind as well.

It's rightfully earned legendary status.

megladon8

01-16-2008, 03:31 AM

Wow, Time Magazine's list of the "top 10 best movie costumes of all time is a disgrace".

It's basically a list of dresses that made women look hot. I'm all for a sexy dress, but come on.

Sycophant

01-16-2008, 03:43 AM

Wow, Time Magazine's list of the "top 10 best movie costumes of all time is a disgrace".

It's basically a list of dresses that made women look hot. I'm all for a sexy dress, but come on.This? (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1699703,00.html)

Maybe it was lowered expectations, but I was surprised at how diverse and, frankly, good and tasteful it was. Atonement was an odd choice, but it was a popular poll and was one of the few, really, that seemed to fit your description. Otherwise, they range from the incredibly iconic (Monroe, Hepburn) to the "Hey, that's a really good choice, actually." (Keaton)

(Also, it's called "The Movies' Best-Loved Costumes," a title that pretty much rejects much critical pretense.)

What do you have against women looking hot, meg? :sad:

megladon8

01-16-2008, 03:44 AM

What do you have against women looking hot, meg? :sad:

Nothing...I think Keira looked divine in Atonement.

But the list should have been "best movie dresses of all time", not "best costumes".

Sycophant

01-16-2008, 03:53 AM

It's Always Fair Weather - Is that...? Is that Gene Kelly... tap-dancing in roller skates? Yes, it is. Yes, it fucking is.
Um... yes, please?

Sven

01-16-2008, 03:57 AM

Um... yes, please?

And boy, Cyd Charisse moves like heaven. She contorts her body in such violently interesting ways in her one number in this that it's just like... wow.

If the first half of it weren't so random and slightly protracted, this would be comparable to the musical giants. As it is, it's totally marvelous, with some great, great performances (I love Dan Dailey in this) and a very tender heart. It's raw and it's beautiful and I love it.

Philosophe_rouge

01-16-2008, 04:20 AM

I still have lots of Lewton to see, my favourite is the Body Snatcher, delicious indeed.
My ratings for the others:
Cat People-8.5
I Walked With a Zombie-8
The Leopard Man-NA :(
The Seventh Victim-NA :(
Curse of the Cat People-NA :(
The Body Snatcher- 9
The Isle of the Dead-7.5
Curse of the Demon-NA

+ I've seen Bedlam, which is serviceable but probably my least favourite I've seen. It dose have Karloff though, and he's always good. I turned off Ghost Ship, I might try it again sometime.

Ezee E

01-16-2008, 04:46 AM

The list is half-great, half-horrible. Moulin Rouge, Elizabeth, and Titanic have no reason to be there.

The rest, and this even includes Atonement, are pretty good choices, as I can immediately think of the movie they are associated with.

jesse

01-16-2008, 05:10 AM

Snakes and chickens get murdered left and right in a lot of older Hong Kong cinema. Pretty sad, but we have to remember it really is just an aspect of a different culture and their norms. This reminds me of a scene in Help Me Eros where a clip from an Asian cooking show is played where a traditional dish is prepared and a live fish is cooked and eaten while its still quite visably alive. I could hardly watch it.

EDIT: And I think we can all agree there's a big fucking difference between gay marriage and killing an animal needlessly for the sake of making a movie. Yes, of course, but it was used as an example of logic and similar thought processes. My point was about human intelligence.

Philosophe_rouge

01-16-2008, 05:10 AM

As for the costume list, I love the GWTW choice, especially the particular costume they chose to feature. As sometimes the list seems to veer towards individual costumes (like Keira's in Atonement), the single dress that came to mind was Grace Kelly's in Rear Window:
http://alabasterbrow.blogsome.com/images/gracelovely3.JPG
Of all Hitchcock films though, I think overall Rebecca's costumes are the best as reflections of the characters. From Joan Fontaine's simple attire, Mrs. Danvers, even Rebecca's gown. It all works in a wonderfully expressive way.

Von Sternberg's films had brilliant costumes;
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc211/zombierouge/MDtux.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc211/zombierouge/2637896.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc211/zombierouge/14658_0002.jpg

Since I don't want to flood the place with images, other films I think have smashing costume design:
Meet me in St. Louis
The Wizard of Oz
The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp
All About Eve
The Importance of Being Earnest (1952)
Vertigo
Some Like it Hot
Bonnie and Clyde
Demoiselles de Rochefort
Two for the Road
The Conformist
McCabe and Mrs. Miller
Blade Runner
The House of Mirth (2000)
In the Mood for Love
Marie Antoinette

I got a little carried away, but it was fun :pritch:

jesse

01-16-2008, 05:15 AM

What are everyone's feelings on Mississippi Mermaid? I have some friends who think it's top tier Truffaut but I found it to be pretty average. Thoughts? I'd tend to side with you. Disappointingly flat, especially considering you've got young Belmondo and Deneuve to work with...

jesse

01-16-2008, 05:30 AM

the single dress that came to mind was Grace Kelly's in Rear Window:
http://alabasterbrow.blogsome.com/images/gracelovely3.JPG YES.

For my junior year banquet (my good Christian school's equivalent to the prom) my girlfriend at the time had her grandmother recreate this dress for her (gloves and all). The skirt wasn't as full---which I think really makes the look--but she still looked stunning.

jesse

01-16-2008, 05:46 AM

...Titanic have no reason to be there. Errr... why's that? The costumes in Titanic were both meticulous recreations and beautifully made. The giant purple hat she wears when her character is first introduced is the costume that sticks out to me, but just the beading on the dress in question is amazing (and amazing looking). I thought it was an excellent choice.

And even if there's no reason to rank it among the best of all time, the costumes in Elizabeth: The Golden Age were mind-blowing. Personally, I find it odd that of all the costumes to chose in Gone with the Wind they go with the red velvet. Not the green curtain creation?

Some memorable costumes for me:

-Barbarella's space suit
-the iconic Chanel dress Audrey wore in Sabrina
-James Dean's red leather jacket in Rebel Without a Cause
-Brando's ripped white t-shirt in A Streetcar Named Desire
-Liz Taylor's white party dress (or just her slip even) in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof
-the costumes in The Tempest (1979)

-and I second Rouge's suggestions from Rear Window, Vertigo (that white jacket and black scarf), In the Mood for Love and Marie Antoinette.

Can you tell I've spent most of the evening reading Project Runway blogs? :)

Philosophe_rouge

01-16-2008, 05:58 AM

I ALMOST put Barbarella on my list,I don't know why I didn't in the end but it's not there. The other suggestions are all good in my book, especially for Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. It certainly doesn't hurt that Taylor was at her peak in 58'-59'. Her costumes in Suddenly, Last Summer also were quite stunning, if not iconic, as is the case with the white bathing suit. It's a shame I can't find a good shot of her black dress, and while these look great in colour the film is actually in BW.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc211/zombierouge/TaylorE09SuddenlyLastSummer195 9.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc211/zombierouge/3756_0040.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc211/zombierouge/3756_0039.jpg

Bosco B Thug

01-16-2008, 08:16 AM

YES.

For my junior year banquet (my good Christian school's equivalent to the prom) my girlfriend at the time had her grandmother recreate this dress for her (gloves and all). The skirt wasn't as full---which I think really makes the look--but she still looked stunning. Oh, that's something. Haha, you know, Hitchcock surely would have approved!

Hot Fuzz was very very funny, largely because of the delivery and comic timing of the performers. I also liked its favoring of thoughtless anarchism over senseless conservativism. Figuring out what the third act will consist of is a moment of unadultered glee, but it sort of declined in inventiveness as the antics went on in that act. I would've liked to have seen Die Hard big in the climax.

soitgoes...

01-16-2008, 11:39 AM

Okay. Flash Gordon is fucking awesome. I do realize that it's awful, but the silliness, cheesiness, corniness is... well, fucking awesome. Fantastic soundtrack. Tons of memorable dialogue. I must own this movie. That is all.

transmogrifier

01-16-2008, 12:04 PM

megladon8

01-16-2008, 02:29 PM

So I love Freddy vs. Jason.

Not like "holy crap that movie is brilliant, here's a 10 rating" love - the acting is terrible and a lot of the dialogue isn't much better. But that's pretty much to be expected, and most of it is done with a wink at the audience - which is all embodied in the final, literal wink at the audience.

It is just so much damn fun, and it's surprisingly well shot. Ronny Yu knows how to shoot an action scene, and it shows in the massive bloodbaths which occur. Considering how brief it is, the cornfiel rave scene is really well shot.

For a "vs." movie between characters from two franchises which had been done to death and absolutely destroyed in the last couple of installments, it's a great, fun movie.

D_Davis

01-16-2008, 02:32 PM

D_Davis

01-16-2008, 02:32 PM

megladon8

01-16-2008, 02:38 PM

Ronny Yu is awesome, and so is FvJ. One of my favorite, favorite films. It gets so much right, and is really creative in terms of exploring the two characters and their mythos, that it is easy to forgive it of its lofty shortcomings. I also think it is one of the (top 10) best looking horror films ever made. The color, lighting and shot selection are amazing. The final 20 minutes are absolutely brilliant.

Yes, the actual fight between Freddy and Jason is an awesome hyper-violent bloodbath.

The whole movie is made with an obvious love and nostalgia for both series', and it really understand the key elements of both characters. I remember when the movie first came out, and I read people complaining that it portrayed Jason in too sympathetic a light and, alternately, that Freddy was too evil.

While I hadn't seen the Jason movies until just now, I never understood this complaint about Freddy. He was always a horrible, evil character with no redeeming "goodness" whatsoever.

And now, after watching all the Jason movies over the last couple of days (save for Part IX) I think it really nailed Jason, too. Sure he's a bloodthirsty killer, but he's totally mindless, and his backstory does provoke a bit of sympathy. It's only natural that he would be the "better" of the two when they are in a movie together.

And I have to say I loved the brief scene on the dock of Crystal Lake where everything turns red and Demon Freddy jumps out of the water. He actually looked really scary there, it was well done.

And the scene in the hospital with all the children with bandages over their eyes mouthing silently was also pretty creepy.

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 02:49 PM

So....uh, what is everyone's tolerance for atrocious acting by foreigners in Asian movies? Because, you know, Once Upon a Time in China is cool and everything, but the white guys are fucking terrible in every single way. It more or less destroys any pathos the film is trying to generate.
This is true, I had the same feeling while watching that movie. It's probably because of the language barrier or simply crappy casting.

I saw The Last Man on Earth, which is a movie largely carried on the shoulders of Price's incredible ability to emote shit dialogue. Seriously, he's an amazing actor, lacking any subtlety but convincing, passionate and extremely intense. The movie is not without its merits, and it's actually a lot darker and grim than I am Legend, with the flashback to the protagonist's previous life carrying a lot more emotional weight and dramatic purpose. The vampire/zombies (I'm pretty sure Romero saw this movie before making Night of the Living Dead) are also significantly scarier. The script, however, does the whole thing little service. It's amateurish, filled with cheesy dialogue, and events pile up way too quickly for their own good. This is clearly a movie in need of more runtime and fleshing up. I liked it, however. I still prefer Omega Man, but this one beats the socks out of the Will Smith crapfest.

D_Davis

01-16-2008, 02:52 PM

This is true, I had the same feeling while watching that movie. It's probably because of the language barrier or simply crappy casting.

Actually, it's because most of the white actors in these movies aren't actors. Many of them are hired off of military bases, or they're tourists, or foreign business men. At best, they are "actors" who couldn't make it anywhere else in the world. I do give HK props though - they give white people more parts in their films than the west gives to Asians. :)

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 03:18 PM

Actually, it's because most of the white actors in these movies aren't actors. Many of them are hired off of military bases, or they're tourists, or foreign business men. At best, they are "actors" who couldn't make it anywhere else in the world. I do give HK props though - they give white people more parts in their films than the west gives to Asians. :)
Hah!

Ok, going to the cinema tonight. What would you guys recommend, American Gangster or Alien vs. Predator: Requiem?

Ezee E

01-16-2008, 03:22 PM

Hah!

Ok, going to the cinema tonight. What would you guys recommend, American Gangster or Alien vs. Predator: Requiem?
Uh, American Gangster easily.

But why not There Will Be Blood?

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 03:23 PM

But why not There Will Be Blood?
It hasn't been released yet. I can watch it in bootleg, actually, but I'd rather wait for the theater.

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 03:24 PM

Oh, and Sleuth is also in theaters, but I haven't seen the first version.

Sycophant

01-16-2008, 03:36 PM

I liked Horse Feathers. I did. But it didn't really strike me as transcendently brilliant and funny as my favorite Marx brothers efforts.

Sundance is going to be around over the next week-and-a-half. I'm not sure how much of it I'm going to take in.

Skitch

01-16-2008, 03:57 PM

So I love Freddy vs. Jason.

You can mark me down for this side of the fence as well. Ronny Yu rocks.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 04:00 PM

That might make sense if every character was being implicated, but that's not the case. What about the son? What about the last shot? I think you're being too general with your reading, anyways. It assumes every citizen has the same relationship with his/her country or government.

(I wouldn't know how any of this applies to Funny Games as I haven't seen it.)

OK, I'll rephrase. I think we're being implicated as inherently guilty in so far as we're not meeting Haneke's conception of justice which seems to recommend purely isolationist politics as the only morally acceptable kind (i.e. kid helping with the cam (assumedly) redefined as engaging in political activism for Algiers/Iraq). I think the father is pretty clearly implicated as the guilty party in the film which I find when extrapolated to an allegorical level, to be politically reductionist. Give me Battle of Algiers over this any day for a more nuanced perception of political culpability.

Morris Schæffer

01-16-2008, 04:06 PM

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 04:19 PM

I do not tolerate. The rice scene from A Better Tomorrow 2 springs to mind, but I'm not sure how much pathos an heroic bloodshed movie is capable of generating.
A lot. It's what those movies are all about, actually.

Sycophant

01-16-2008, 04:21 PM

A lot. It's what those movies are all about, actually.Thanks for saying that. I tried to say it, but I was too baffled ot respond. It's a special kind of pathos, but the traditional heroic bloodshed model is all about that stuff. And the best really, really works (see: Bullet in the Head or pretty much any vintage Woo).

D_Davis

01-16-2008, 04:32 PM

Thanks for saying that. I tried to say it, but I was too baffled ot respond. It's a special kind of pathos, but the traditional heroic bloodshed model is all about that stuff. And the best really, really works (see: Bullet in the Head or pretty much any vintage Woo).

Yep, yep, yep. Or go back even further to the work of Chang Cheh for even more examples.

Sycophant

01-16-2008, 04:41 PM

Yep, yep, yep. Or go back even further to the work of Chang Cheh for even more examples.Speaking of which, I've now seen Blood Brothers and Boxer from Shantung, the latter of which I particularly liked. What Chang Cheh should I check out next?

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 04:53 PM

Bullet in the Head engenders pity, sympathy and deep sadness? I find that difficult to believe.

Woo's films are about blowing shit up with a modicum of characterization to make it psychologically feasible. There's nothing wrong with watching shit blow or blowing it up well. In fact I enjoy it a great deal. But Woo's sensitivity to the human condition is not especially elevated. Which is not to say that films that have action can't contain compelling pathos (i.e. Seven Samurai, etc), but the intent of the filmmaker in the construction of the scene and the work is relevant. You don't see slow motion bullets to the head in Kurosawa's work because even his 'bad guys' are human beings. Furthermore, a film doesn't have to humanize all it's characters or have pathos to be a compelling work of art. However, I do not watch kung fu, martial arts and action films to be deeply saddened and self-reflective. I did not cry over the tragedy of the Predator's demise when Ahnuld took the poor sod out.

D_Davis

01-16-2008, 04:55 PM

Speaking of which, I've now seen Blood Brothers and Boxer from Shantung, the latter of which I particularly liked. What Chang Cheh should I check out next?

Boxer From Shantung is the best. Very, very, very high on my Top 100 :)

To stay in the classic era (pre-Venom Mob, more serious works), I would check out:

Shaolin Temple
5 Shaolin Masters
One-Armed Swordsman trilogy
The Assassin
Have Sword, Will Travel
Heroes Two
Men from the Monastery

Venom Mob era (more comical, or action packed):

Five Deadly Venoms
Crippled Avengers
Shaolin Martial Arts
Kid With the Golden Arm
Chinese Super Ninjas

megladon8

01-16-2008, 04:55 PM

While my opinion on it has greatly changed - I used to find it OK, but now consider it brilliant - I still contend that Seven Samurai is not an action film.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 04:58 PM

While my opinion on it has greatly changed - I used to find it OK, but now consider it brilliant - I still contend that Seven Samurai is not an action film.

Of course not, but it has action.

megladon8

01-16-2008, 04:58 PM

Of course not, but it has action.

Yes - great stuff, at that.

I also always loved the more sensational violence in Yojimbo and Sanjuro.

Sycophant

01-16-2008, 04:58 PM

I doubt if I could disagree with your remarks more thoroughly, Qrazy (though I'm sure you're not alone in your reading of Woo's films). When I see Bullet in the Head, I see an angry, passionate work less involved with making shit blow up real cool, but rather mourning the amoral, nihilistic world we live in and prizing the honorable, loving (and slightly homoerotic) relationships that allow us to live in them. Woo frequently depicts this in black-and-white terms that make a caricature of these things, but I don't think that deprives them of their potency. There are innocents in Woo's world (the babies in Hard Boiled, the singer in The Killer) and the taboo of hurting them is an outrageous sin in his book. It's an almost cartoonishly painted moral universe, but it's there.

Sycophant

01-16-2008, 05:00 PM

One-Armed Swordsman trilogyThanks. I think I've got a winner with these.

megladon8

01-16-2008, 05:01 PM

Thanks. I think I've got a winner with these.

You sure do.

All of those movies rock.

Even Zatoichi vs. The One-Armed Swordsman is great.

D_Davis

01-16-2008, 05:01 PM

However, I do not watch kung fu, martial arts and action films to be deeply saddened and self-reflective.

A lot of the classic stuff, late '60s to early '70s, have these elements as their over riding themes. The wuxia pian is a genre all about isolation and loneliness, and the plight of the warrior who must turn his back on one world to enter another. A lot of the early Chang and King Hu films are full of incredibly nuanced characterizations and ideas that go much deeper than most people care to give them credit for, as deep as any film I've seen in some cases.

While many of the characters in these films are just archetypes, what they represent is important, and can offer a great deal of insight into the human condition.

The Boxer From Shantung is not only the best gangster film I've ever seen (I'd argue the best ever made), but it is detailed examination of the relationships between the characters, their desires, and their dreams. It also happens to contain a great deal of awesome action, but the action also serves as a physical representation of inner turmoil of the characters.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 05:17 PM

A lot of the classic stuff, late '60s to early '70s, have these elements as their over riding themes. The wuxia pian is a genre all about isolation and loneliness, and the plight of the warrior who must turn his back on one world to enter another. A lot of the early Chang and King Hu films are full of incredibly nuanced characterizations and ideas that go much deeper than most people care to give them credit for, as deep as any film I've seen in some cases.

While many of the characters in these films are just archetypes, what they represent is important, and can offer a great deal of insight into the human condition.

The Boxer From Shantung is not only the best gangster film I've ever seen (I'd argue the best ever made), but it is detailed examination of the relationships between the characters, their desires, and their dreams. It also happens to contain a great deal of awesome action, but the action also serves as a physical representation of inner turmoil of the characters.

I haven't seen The Boxer so you may well be right. In a similar vein films with action like The Godfather One and Two have a great deal of pathos to them as well. But neither Woo films nor films like Five Deadly Venoms, A Chinese Ghost Story or any of the Zatoichi's inspire great sadness in me. Something like Inagaki's Samurai Trilogy I'd say fits the bill better.

Just because Woo deals with moral issues that doesn't mean his films are pathos proficient. I would contend that manifesting his themes in such black and white characterizations really limits the films ability to inspire a nuanced emotional response.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 05:22 PM

I see an angry, passionate work less involved with making shit blow up real cool, but rather mourning the amoral, nihilistic world we live in and prizing the honorable, loving (and slightly homoerotic) relationships that allow us to live in them. Woo frequently depicts this in black-and-white terms that make a caricature of these things, but I don't think that deprives them of their potency. There are innocents in Woo's world (the babies in Hard Boiled, the singer in The Killer) and the taboo of hurting them is an outrageous sin in his book. It's an almost cartoonishly painted moral universe, but it's there.

It's ridiculously hypocritical of Woo to romanticize the nihilistic world if he disdains it so much. I don't see viewing the killing of innocents as taboo or prizing camaraderie as refutation of that romanticization.

PS Whatever spell-check Match-cut uses is terrible.

Yxklyx

01-16-2008, 05:35 PM

Faces was just as good or better than Shadows. Both are wonderful movies. Breaths of fresh air.

number8

01-16-2008, 06:27 PM

It's ridiculously hypocritical of Woo to romanticize the nihilistic world if he disdains it so much. I don't see viewing the killing of innocents as taboo or prizing camaraderie as refutation of that romanticization.

Hold up.

Woo NEVER romanticized the gangster lifestyle, this is what is most misunderstood about him that got him in trouble when HK kids were imitating his movies. Woo didn't do that. He romanticizes male bonding and camaraderie, and puts them to the test by putting them in the most dangerous life-or-death situations. In all of his movies, his characters always end up rejecting that nihilistic world to attain something more meaningful (love, honor, family, etc), and what makes him such a great tragedy director is that Woo would still make his characters pay for their crimes, even though they've turned around. There are no happy endings for crime-doers in Woo's world. This is most heartbreaking in The Killer's ending.

He even took a jab at this misunderstanding in A Better Tomorrow II, when he showed kids dressing up as Chow Yun Fat's character from the first movie, thinking they're cool... then Chow Yun Fat shows up and slaps them upside the head for being idiots.

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 06:35 PM

megladon8

01-16-2008, 06:50 PM

Sweet, I got 97% on my TV show pitch of "I Was a Teenage Behemoth".

Thanks for the help, everyone!

Sycophant

01-16-2008, 06:52 PM

Hold up. I owe you rep.

megladon8

01-16-2008, 07:00 PM

Did anyone see that documentary Zoo, about the guy who died trying to screw a horse?

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 07:04 PM

Hold up.

Woo NEVER romanticized the gangster lifestyle, this is what is most misunderstood about him that got him in trouble when HK kids were imitating his movies. Woo didn't do that. He romanticizes male bonding and camaraderie, and puts them to the test by putting them in the most dangerous life-or-death situations. In all of his movies, his characters always end up rejecting that nihilistic world to attain something more meaningful (love, honor, family, etc), and what makes him such a great tragedy director is that Woo would still make his characters pay for their crimes, even though they've turned around. There are no happy endings for crime-doers in Woo's world. This is most heartbreaking in The Killer's ending.

He even took a jab at this misunderstanding in A Better Tomorrow II, when he showed kids dressing up as Chow Yun Fat's character from the first movie, thinking they're cool... then Chow Yun Fat shows up and slaps them upside the head for being idiots.

All of this is beside the point though. The romanticization is implicit in the tone and style of the film. Making the morally culpable character pay the price for their acts has nothing to do with not romanticizing violence and the criminal element.

What are the great moral and metaphysical lessons to be learned when we watch a grenade bounce in slow motion off a wall in Hard Boiled?

Rowland

01-16-2008, 07:15 PM

Did anyone see that documentary Zoo, about the guy who died trying to screw a horse?He died because the horse screwed him, actually.

Yeah, I saw it, and liked it a lot.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 07:18 PM

Anyone who thinks there's not any pathos or drama in John Woo films needs to revisit The Killer and Hard Boiled ASAP. If the latter was just an action film using the characters and their dramatic conflicts as excuses, then why would it end in such a downbeat, sad, unsatisfying note? Because Woo had a message to convey.

The tragic is often more satisfying than the false happy ending. Anyway this has nothing to do with whether or not Woo is a good director, whether his films are good or whether knows how to craft a satisfying narrative. This is about the pathos his films are capable of engendering based on their formal/functional merits. The definition of pathos I'm using is of a quality which arouses sympathy, pity or sorrow... Not the Aristotlean definition whereby pathos is just a persuasive appeal to emotion.

number8

01-16-2008, 07:21 PM

All of this is beside the point though. The romanticization is implicit in the tone and style of the film. Making the morally culpable character pay the price for their acts has nothing to do with not romanticizing violence and the criminal element.

I'm strongly baffled. I have no idea how that is beside the point. That's exactly the point. It's about Woo condemning the treachery and cowardice that common criminals display, instead promoting honor and friendship as the foremost motivation in his characters. What's hypocritical about it? What exactly are you referring to when you say that he romanticizes the criminal element? Woo doesn't even portray them as swanky like Scorsese or Scarface did. Of course he romanticizes violence when he's dealing with heroic bloodshed, but lumping violence together is unfair when there are different levels to the reasoning. When Tony Leung's character picks up a gun and executes American soldiers to save Jacky Cheung's innocence, is it just an excuse to see some guy's head blow off? I refuse to see it that way.

Please enlighten me as to the great moral and metaphysical lessons to be learned when we watch a grenade bounce in slow motion off a wall in Hard Boiled?

Why specifically that moment? We're not arguing that Woo isn't an action director good at blowing shit up. He is. He's also great at creating suspense in his action scenes. That's pretty much why the grenade bounces in slow motion. Suspense.

Spinal

01-16-2008, 07:23 PM

I thought Zoo was dreadful.

My review. (http://filmepidemic.blogspot.com/2007/02/zoo-devor-2007.html)

Yxklyx

01-16-2008, 07:24 PM

Sweet, I got 97% on my TV show pitch of "I Was a Teenage Behemoth".

Thanks for the help, everyone!

Sounds like a show about an obese high schooler.

Yxklyx

01-16-2008, 07:25 PM

I thought Zoo was dreadful.

My review. (http://filmepidemic.blogspot.com/2007/02/zoo-devor-2007.html)

Phew, for a second I thought you were talking about the Greenaway film.

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 07:27 PM

The tragic is often more satisfying than the false happy ending. Anyway this has nothing to do with whether or not Woo is a good director, whether his films are good or whether knows how to craft a satisfying narrative. This is about the pathos his films are capable of engendering based on their formal/functional merits. The definition of pathos I'm using is of a quality which arouses sympathy, pity or sorrow... Not the Aristotlean definition whereby pathos is just a persuasive appeal to emotion.
Yeah, man, I know what we're talking about. And the accepted modern definition is only an expansion of the meaning Aristotle gave to the word in Poetics, so it's oranges and ouranges all the way. I suggest you watch those two movies again, plus A Better Tomorrow, with an eye to the amount of time spent by Woo on the personalities and feelings of his cops and mobsters. The tragic ending in Hard Boiled would be out of place in any action movie made just for the sake of filming cool action, yet it makes sense because of the themes of the movie.

megladon8

01-16-2008, 07:28 PM

He died because the horse screwed him, actually.

Yeah, I saw it, and liked it a lot.

*shudders*

I actually think I would choose animal death over that.

Is the film played out seriously and/or sympathetic to the "victim", or is it done in a satirical "what a freak!" type tone?

I imagine the latter could be rather tasteless and offensive, even.

Spinal

01-16-2008, 07:30 PM

Is the film played out seriously and/or sympathetic to the "victim", or is it done in a satirical "what a freak!" type tone?

I imagine the latter could be rather tasteless and offensive, even.

I would definitely say it's more sympathetic than not, although it's kind of hard to avoid the 'what a freak' aspect of the story completely. I thought it was sympathetic to the point of unintentional comedy at times.

Spinal

01-16-2008, 07:31 PM

Phew, for a second I thought you were talking about the Greenaway film.

Oh no. That's a top 5 film for me.

D_Davis

01-16-2008, 07:31 PM

Please enlighten me as to the great moral and metaphysical lessons to be learned when we watch a grenade bounce in slow motion off a wall in Hard Boiled?

It seems like you're saying that you can't have stylized action AND deeper stuff, which, of course, is just not true. While the pathos and nuanced characterizations in genre cinema may be more archetypal and mythological in nature, therefor dealing in more overt symbolism, it is still, none the less, there in the well made films.

While one scene may show a grenade bouncing in slow motion, or a dude getting ripped to shreds with bullets, another scene may just as easily show something more.

For instance, in The Killer there is a scene where Lee has a kind of psychic bond with Chow. He not only intuitively knows how Chow handled a certain situation, but it is apparent that he also feels Chow's loneliness, a loneliness birthed from Chow's decision to turn his back on the outside world and enter the dark alleyways of the jiang hu. The life of a wuxia warrior (and most of Woo's films were modern updates of the wuxia pian) is one of extreme loneliness and sorrow.

Later in the film, Chow embraces Lee and, what might be for the first time, he truly trusts someone from the outside. In this sense, we see the outsider and the insider crossing over the boundaries set up by both worlds.

That this takes place in a Catholic church in Hong Kong is also symbolic of the outsider's presence in a foreign land.

Also, note where Chow lives, and the view he has. His view is of the Catholic church, but the church is in disrepair. The church is surrounded by scaffolding, and is being repaired, renovated. I see this as symbolizing Chow's longing to rejoin the outside world. He has spent so long on the inside that he has forgotten what it is like to be on the outside, but to do so feels he must build up defenses. For even though his world is in fact the dangerous one, he perceives it as a safe haven because it is the one familiar to him. Chow, Lee and the church share a symbiotic relationship.

Rowland

01-16-2008, 07:31 PM

*shudders*

I actually think I would choose animal death over that.

Is the film played out seriously and/or sympathetic to the "victim", or is it done in a satirical "what a freak!" type tone?

I imagine the latter could be rather tasteless and offensive, even.It's about more than just the victim, but yeah, it approaches the subject with a probing curiosity. Almost all of the narration in the movie is by people who were involved, including some of his fellow zoophilists.

megladon8

01-16-2008, 07:34 PM

I would definitely say it's more sympathetic than not, although it's kind of hard to avoid the 'what a freak' aspect of the story completely. I thought it was sympathetic to the point of unintentional comedy at times.

From reading your review, it reminds me somewhat of a recent legal case I was reading about.

A man put up a website for "child lovers" - people who have sexual relationships with children, but insist that they feel genuine love, and that the children love them too.

Because the website does not actually contain pornographic material, he can't get in trouble because it falls under free speech. And because he never actually names names or put up pictures of the child he is "with", again, it's simply free speech.

But people are outraged because he openly admits that he is a child molester, and nothing can be done about it.

Anyways that was quite a tangent and represents a completely different issue, but your review where you talk about how they wish to be acknowledged by society as genuine "couples" - and even insist that the animals love them too - I saw a similarity.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 07:38 PM

I'm strongly baffled. I have no idea how that is beside the point. That's exactly the point. It's about Woo condemning the treachery and cowardice that common criminals display, instead promoting honor and friendship as the foremost motivation in his characters. What's hypocritical about it? What exactly are you referring to when you say that he romanticizes the criminal element? Woo doesn't even portray them as swanky like Scorsese or Scarface did. Of course he romanticizes violence when he's dealing with heroic bloodshed, but lumping violence together is unfair when there are different levels to the reasoning. When Tony Leung's character picks up a gun and executes American soldiers to save Jacky Cheung's innocence, is it just an excuse to see some guy's head blow off? I refuse to see it that way.

I have no interest in giving a carte blanch to Scarface. I think it has the same problems we're discussing here. Scorsese is a different story (for the most part) because the violence maintains some reality and the characters are multi-faceted. Some of the characters in Scorsese's films may enjoy the killing but rarely is the audience supposed to, and we're shown the brutality of the acts for just that purpose.

I don't see violence as you do. I see violence as an inherently ugly act, although unfortunately necessary at times. There is no heroic bloodshed, that thought disgusts me. There is the bloodshed of necessity, but it is never balletic or pretty. To make it so is to romanticize it.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 07:43 PM

Yeah, man, I know what we're talking about. And the accepted modern definition is only an expansion of the meaning Aristotle gave to the word in Poetics, so it's oranges and ouranges all the way. I suggest you watch those two movies again, plus A Better Tomorrow, with an eye to the amount of time spent by Woo on the personalities and feelings of his cops and mobsters. The tragic ending in Hard Boiled would be out of place in any action movie made just for the sake of filming cool action, yet it makes sense because of the themes of the movie.

I suggest you stop suggesting that I re-watch the films as if that was an actual argument for anything, beyond what it actually is, an assumption of your superior skills at narrative analysis.

Plenty of action movies end on a dour note, I have no idea what you are talking about in that regard.

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 07:43 PM

I have no interest in giving a carte blanch to Scarface. I think it has the same problems we're discussing here. Scorsese is a different story (for the most part) because the violence maintains some reality and the characters are multi-faceted. Some of the characters in Scorsese's films may enjoy the killing but rarely is the audience supposed to, and we're shown the brutality of the acts for just that purpose.

I don't see violence as you do. I see violence as an inherently ugly act, although unfortunately necessary at times. There is no heroic bloodshed, that thought disgusts me. There is the bloodshed of necessity, but it is never balletic or pretty. To make it so is to romanticize it.
Ok, so basically you have an issue with screen violence in general and you decided to take it out on Woo. Court dismissed, there was no case in the first place, just a bunch of elephant shit.

Speaking of which, the Scarface game for PC is still awesome after months without playing.

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 07:44 PM

Plenty of action movies end on a dour note, I have no idea what you are talking about in that regard.
No, actually, they don't.

megladon8

01-16-2008, 07:45 PM

OK, what is this tragic ending in Hard Boiled?

I watched it three times since August and I don't remember a great tragedy, unless it was symbolic and I didn't pick up on it.

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 07:55 PM

OK, what is this tragic ending in Hard Boiled?

I watched it three times since August and I don't remember a great tragedy, unless it was symbolic and I didn't pick up on it.

Tony Leung dies.

megladon8

01-16-2008, 07:56 PM

Tony Leung dies.

What???

The last shot of the movie is him riding his boat.

Was that just symbolic? Did he die in that scene by the vault?

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 08:00 PM

What???

The last shot of the movie is him riding his boat.

Was that just symbolic? Did he die in that scene by the vault?
Huh, now you're making me doubt it. I've seen other Woo films recently, but the last (and first) time I watched Hard Boiled was over a year ago.

Didn't Leung die at the very end by a stray bullet? Doesn't it end with his funeral and Chow Yun Fat attending?

D_Davis

01-16-2008, 08:01 PM

Huh, now you're making me doubt it. I've seen other Woo films recently, but the last time I watched Hard Boiled was over a year ago.

Didn't Leung die at the very end? Doesn't it end with a funeral?

I think you are thinking of Infernal Affairs.

number8

01-16-2008, 08:01 PM

I see violence as an inherently ugly act, although unfortunately necessary at times. There is no heroic bloodshed, that thought disgusts me.

These two sentences are contradictory, because heroic bloodshed is always about the necessity of that bloodshed, that's what makes it heroic--it's the shedding of one's own blood in an act of heroism, against impossible odds. But to get into it would be to stray from the discussion of the movies and into the merits of violence, which I don't really care for.

There is the bloodshed of necessity, but it is never balletic or pretty. To make it so is to romanticize it.

Ehhh. If you say so. Woo works in the action genre. As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason why he can't make his Shakesperean operas as fun and engaging as possible, while also establishing as a master choreographer. To say that you can't look past your own feelings on violence to see and sympathize with the sadness of the John Woo's characters doesn't mean that Woo's movies don't have elements of pathos.

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 08:02 PM

I think you are thinking of Infernal Affairs.
No, I knew what movie I was talking about, but it looks like I made up an ending. Man, I fucked up. So, how does Hard Boiled actually end?

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 08:03 PM

It seems like you're saying that you can't have stylized action AND deeper stuff, which, of course, is just not true. While the pathos and nuanced characterizations in genre cinema may be more archetypal and mythological in nature, therefor dealing in more overt symbolism, it is still, none the less, there in the well made films.

I didn't say you can't have 'deeper stuff', 'deeper stuff' and pathos are not synonymous.

While one scene may show a grenade bouncing in slow motion, or a dude getting ripped to shreds with bullets, another scene may just as easily show something more.

For instance, in The Killer there is a scene where Lee has a kind of psychic bond with Chow. He not only intuitively knows how Chow handled a certain situation, but it is apparent that he also feels Chow's loneliness, a loneliness birthed from Chow's decision to turn his back on the outside world and enter the dark alleyways of the jiang hu. The life of a wuxia warrior (and most of Woo's films were modern updates of the wuxia pian) is one of extreme loneliness and sorrow.

Later in the film, Chow embraces Lee and, what might be for the first time, he truly trusts someone from the outside. In this sense, we see the outsider and the insider crossing over the boundaries set up by both worlds.

Creating a character who feels lonely and kills a bunch of people as a result is not the same thing as generating pathos or adequately expressing that character's loneliness in the work itself. Just because we're led to believe he's alienated, that does not mean we feel that alienation beyond anything but a superficial level. What Time is it There? is a good example of a film which internalizes this narrative and thematic loneliness into tonal loneliness.

That this takes place in a Catholic church in Hong Kong is also symbolic of the outsider's presence in a foreign land.

Also, note where Chow lives, and the view he has. His view is of the Catholic church, but the church is in disrepair. The church is surrounded by scaffolding, and is being repaired, renovated. I see this as symbolizing Chow's longing to rejoin the outside world. He has spent so long on the inside that he has forgotten what it is like to be on the outside, but to do so feels he must build up defenses. For even though his world is in fact the dangerous one, he perceives it as a safe haven because it is the one familiar to him. Chow, Lee and the church share a symbiotic relationship.

I find this to be a fairly specious reading of the symbolic role of the scaffolding in the film, but that disagreement aside, even if I agreed with your interpretation, the presence of alienated symbolism in the film has little to no impact on whether the viewer feels pity or sorrow for the goings on of the film. Even if we are to assume your reading was correct, and even if the scaffolding contributed an implicit and unconscious awareness to the viewer of the character's loneliness (none of which I remotely agree with, but if it did), that still would not add any sympathy or sorrow from the viewer toward the character or work.

number8

01-16-2008, 08:04 PM

I think you are thinking of Infernal Affairs.

Actually, the first time I saw IA, I noticed so many similarities to Hard Boiled, I was convinced that it was a remake.

number8

01-16-2008, 08:05 PM

No, I knew what movie I was talking about, but it looks like I made up an ending. Man, I fucked up. So, how does Hard Boiled actually end?

Tony Leung is held hostage. Chow Yun Fat shoots the bad guy and saves him. Chow goes on being an honored cop. Leung rides on merrily as a free man on his boat.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 08:06 PM

Ok, so basically you have an issue with screen violence in general and you decided to take it out on Woo. Court dismissed, there was no case in the first place, just a bunch of elephant shit.

Speaking of which, the Scarface game for PC is still awesome after months without playing.

The only thing less argumentatively valid than claiming the ignorance of the opposing party is to dismiss the entire issue completely.

Grouchy

01-16-2008, 08:13 PM

Tony Leung is held hostage. Chow Yun Fat shoots the bad guy and saves him. Chow goes on being an honored cop. Leung rides on merrily as a free man on his boat.
Yeah, I remember the boat part now.

I thought Leung died in the shooting when the gang lord had him hostage for some reason. I should watch it again.

And Qrazy, I'm not shying away from discussion, I just think you're coming from a way too personal standpoint and not really willing to analyze what anyone else is saying, so, no point wasting time over it. Also, I never said you were ignorant, pilgrim. Get a shrink for those issues.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 08:16 PM

These two sentences are contradictory, because heroic bloodshed is always about the necessity of that bloodshed, that's what makes it heroic--it's the shedding of one's own blood in an act of heroism, against impossible odds. But to get into it would be to stray from the discussion of the movies and into the merits of violence, which I don't really care for.

I don't see that they're remotely contradictory. I can say that sometimes it proves necessary to kill another man without it proving necessary to glorify the act itself. I see no contradiction there.

Ehhh. If you say so. Woo works in the action genre. As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason why he can't make his Shakesperean operas as fun and engaging as possible, while also establishing as a master choreographer. To say that you can't look past your own feelings on violence to see and sympathize with the sadness of the John Woo's characters doesn't mean that Woo's movies don't have elements of pathos.

It has nothing to do with how I feel about violence. I enjoy these types of films, Jesus you people and your straw men. We don't even have to discuss Woo, he was just a convenient example used as counterpoint by someone else. I'm saying that I find it difficult to feel much emotional resonance in terms of sympathy, sorrow, what have you, with characters who go rampaging through a building killing all the cardboard people around (no citizens mind you). It just doesn't move me.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 08:19 PM

Yeah, I remember the boat part now.

I thought Leung died in the shooting when the gang lord had him hostage for some reason. I should watch it again.

And Qrazy, I'm not shying away from discussion, I just think you're coming from a way too personal standpoint and not really willing to analyze what anyone else is saying, so, no point wasting time over it. Also, I never said you were ignorant, pilgrim. Get a shrink for those issues.

Telling someone to re-watch the film because their perspective must be predicated on a faulty understanding of what occurred is roughly equivalent to claiming ignorance of the work in question? No? ... And now I'm crazy too? *slap* ... Oh wait that's my username... Damn.

If it helps let's discuss another film or filmmaker aside from Woo.

origami_mustache

01-16-2008, 08:21 PM

Faces was just as good or better than Shadows. Both are wonderful movies. Breaths of fresh air.

I loved Faces...finally seeing Shadows this week.

number8

01-16-2008, 08:32 PM

I don't see that they're remotely contradictory. I can say that sometimes it proves necessary to kill another man without it proving necessary to glorify the act itself. I see no contradiction there.

So you agree that heroic bloodshed exists?

It has nothing to do with how I feel about violence. I enjoy these types of films, Jesus you people and your straw men. We don't even have to discuss Woo, he was just a convenient example used as counterpoint by someone else. I'm saying that I find it difficult to feel much emotional resonance in terms of sympathy, sorrow, what have you, with characters who go rampaging through a building killing all the cardboard people around (no citizens mind you). It just doesn't move me.

Dude, I know you enjoy it. You've said so by referencing Predator and I'm not blind. I was referring to how you say that you don't feel the pathos in their acts because you don't think heroic bloodshed exists. Which is true, isn't it? I'm saying that your feeling on that matter negates your view on Woo's films as dramatic, violent representations of morality tales. You just think they're run-and-gun blow-em-up films. Which is fine, lots of people do. But I'm not trying to argue that Woo is a master dramatist (although I do believe that his sense of sentimentality is powerful). I was responding to your accusal that he's hypocritical because he romanticizes a lifestyle that he is morally against. Which I don't think is true in the very least.

number8

01-16-2008, 08:33 PM

If it helps let's discuss another film or filmmaker aside from Woo.

Yes. Where do we stand on Ringo Lam and Tsui Hark?

D_Davis

01-16-2008, 09:09 PM

Yes. Where do we stand on ... Tsui Hark?

Need you ask? ;)

Although I do think Woo is better at delivering pathos than Tsui. For me, Tsui is all about the aesthetics and visceral thrills of cinema.

D_Davis

01-16-2008, 09:10 PM

Actually, the first time I saw IA, I noticed so many similarities to Hard Boiled, I was convinced that it was a remake.

IA is kind of like the more quiet, introspective brother to Hard Boil's bombast.

Qrazy

01-16-2008, 09:18 PM

So you agree that heroic bloodshed exists?

I agree that there can be self-less acts of heroism in the midst of battle, but not that bloodshed in and of itself is ever heroic. Which is to say that I would have incarcerated Beowulf.

Dude, I know you enjoy it. You've said so by referencing Predator and I'm not blind. I was referring to how you say that you don't feel the pathos in their acts because you don't think heroic bloodshed exists. Which is true, isn't it?

It's more the way the bloodshed is expressed in these and similar films. For instance, I am moved by the heroism of Ivan in Ivan's Childhood, by the Lieutenant in Das Boot, by Col. Dax in Paths of Glory, etc. I am moved by their self-less acts in the face of great danger, but Woo's characters barely seem to even experience danger. There's no gravitas to ground these characters for me to be able to feel any pathos toward them.

I'm saying that your feeling on that matter negates your view on Woo's films as dramatic, violent representations of morality tales. You just think they're run-and-gun blow-em-up films. Which is fine, lots of people do. But I'm not trying to argue that Woo is a master dramatist (although I do believe that his sense of sentimentality is powerful). I was responding to your accusal that he's hypocritical because he romanticizes a lifestyle that he is morally against. Which I don't think is true in the very least.

OK sure, he's against the lifestyle of the amoral liar versus camaraderie etc, I'll grant you that's the case. However, I thought you meant that he was against a lifestyle of death and violence which is what I was arguing gives rise to the hypocrisy. I meant that his style is not against violence and murder and that when his films claim (or the claim is made by someone), that the totality of the work represents the converse, that this is untrue.

I've only seen Peking Opera Blues out of those two directors but we can move the discussion there, although maybe it's been played out already (the discussion).

Philosophe_rouge

01-16-2008, 10:16 PM

I watched Waitress last night, I enjoyed it far more than I expected. Much like Juno, I thought the first few scenes were a little awkward but it eventually found it's ground. The actors were wonderful, and carried the film for me. They were earnest and played to the style very well. I like pies, so that also helped.

Sven

01-17-2008, 02:07 AM

I don't know about heroic bloodshed and male bonding, but, boy, do John Woo's movies suck.

Rowland

01-17-2008, 02:13 AM

I don't know about heroic bloodshed and male bonding, but, boy, do John Woo's movies suck.Reeeeeeeeduuuundancy... :P

Sven

01-17-2008, 02:15 AM

Reeeeeeeeduuuundancy... :P

Yeah, I know. But dissing Woo at any opportunity that presents itself is my mission! *gets shot in slow-motion without any kind of moral recompense by a badass Chow Yun Fat in shades*

megladon8

01-17-2008, 02:20 AM

Just adding my (very simple) two cents...it's in our nature - especially males - to be excited by violence. Maybe "excited" is not the right word, but I can't think of something more effective because I'm tired and worn out from the day.

I'd say watching a John Woo movie - or any action movies where "bad guys" are senselessly dispensed in the name of sheer testosterone-fuelled bravado - is a positive way to channel that carnal desire for stuff blowing up real good.

Eleven

01-17-2008, 02:25 AM

My personal favorite '07 biopic (loosely-termed) I'm Not There made me think of Paul Schrader's similarly structured and fascinating Mishima, so much so that I messed with each movie, chopping them up and reorganizing them together in equal parts nonlinear editing practice and free association video essaying. I hope to do some writing on it on my blog, but for now you can see the youTube video at Film at 11 (http://film-at-11.blogspot.com/). Took about a week, but it was fun.

Watashi

01-17-2008, 03:25 AM

Well, I'm back.

Mysterious Dude

01-17-2008, 03:30 AM

Well, I'm back.
Did you remember to pick up my medication?

Raiders

01-17-2008, 03:31 AM

Well, I'm back.

You were gone?

Watashi

01-17-2008, 03:51 AM

You were gone?
*single tear*

MadMan

01-17-2008, 03:53 AM

You were gone?I'm thinking the same thing.

So I decided to rent 1941 and Snakes on a Plane for a double dose of cheesiness this week. I tried watching the former on Tuesday night and only made it through the first 20 minutes before turning it off. I know there's something said for patience but most good or even decent at best comedies have at least one good joke in the first 20 minutes. I'll give it another shot maybe but compound that with the fact that its 2 hours 25 minutes long and I may surrender to the fact that it sucks. SOAP I'll probably like more than I should though.

Mysterious Dude

01-17-2008, 03:55 AM

I watched some of Snakes on a Plane and could hardly believe how boring it was. It's no wonder it's been almost completely forgotten (and after all that hype).

Spinal

01-17-2008, 04:31 AM

I think action movies that exist solely to showcase 'splosions, gun battles and the like are pretty much the most boring kinds of films I can imagine.

Grouchy

01-17-2008, 04:31 AM

Telling someone to re-watch the film because their perspective must be predicated on a faulty understanding of what occurred is roughly equivalent to claiming ignorance of the work in question? No?
No. Different people, different mindframes, diff'rent strokes. I was suggesting you watch those movies again with different thoughts in mind so you could appreciate the pathos in them. I wasn't saying you were ignorant of them or of anything else in the world.

transmogrifier

01-17-2008, 04:42 AM

I think action movies that exist solely to showcase 'splosions, gun battles and the like are pretty much the most boring kinds of films I can imagine.

for action, read kung-fu
for 'spolsions, read roundhouse kicks
for gun battles, read ostentatious wire-work
for the like, read the like

and you have my take

also:

biopics
Oscar-winning qualities
period art design
the like

MadMan

01-17-2008, 04:43 AM

I think action movies that exist solely to showcase 'splosions, gun battles and the like are pretty much the most boring kinds of films I can imagine.But I like some of those films, although some of the worst films I've seen are just what you describe. The best ones go above those simplistic and basic concepts of course.

Watashi

01-17-2008, 04:45 AM

I rewatched The Host today and was really engrossed from beginning to end. I'm sure there will be many comparisons between this and Cloverfield, but I'm sure I will side with Joon-ho Bong's film when the dust and rubble is settled. The humor rocks and the cinematography is gorgeous. If only more big monster films could have crisp composition and colors like this one.

Sycophant

01-17-2008, 06:37 AM

I don't remember a lot of reactions around here to Margot at the Wedding, though that might have partially been due to my trying to block out all noise about the movie before I saw it. Finally caught it tonight before it leaves theaters and liked it a whole hell of a lot. Can't quite place my finger on it, but there's something about the pacing and structure of middle of the film that struck me as off. However, almost every individual moment in the film worked for me. I hope people keep letting Baumbach make movies.

And I sometimes forget how incredibly sexy Nicole Kidman is. Yow.

origami_mustache

01-17-2008, 07:34 AM

The Apartment (Billy Wilder, 1960)

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r269/dontslatahate/apt4.jpg

I have enjoyed every film I've seen directed by Billy Wilder, and many people consider The Apartment to be one of his better, if not his best film, so coming into this I had pretty high expectations. The film is formally and technically a great achievement, from the editing and sound, to the art direction, blocking and framing, and so on. Jack Lemmon is excellent in his role and Shirley MacLaine is adorable. Unfortunately the story felt like something I've seen hundreds of times in romantic comedies and sitcom television, chalked full of stereotypical characters and familiar genre devices. Wilder brings a few tinges of darkness as usual with a suicide attempt and excessive infidelity, but nothing stood out enough for me to consider it great.

Sycophant

01-17-2008, 08:35 AM

Both films I watched tonight--I'm Not There and Margot at the Wedding--are ones I really look forward to getting on DVD and picking apart. I may be raising my Margot grade to a four-star, because the more I think about it, the more I like it.

lovejuice

01-17-2008, 05:34 PM

damn. i miss woo discussion. :frustrated::sad:

Spinal

01-17-2008, 06:44 PM

Philosophe_rouge

01-17-2008, 06:48 PM

Kurosawa Fan

01-17-2008, 06:49 PM

Sunshine just might inspire me to break out of my review writing (semi)-retirement. I read up on the discussion at the old site and no one seemed to say the things that I thought were important about the film. Maybe tonight I'll put something together.

Awesome. This is in the top five of my queue, behind 12:08 to Bucharest. I'm trying to squeeze in as many 2007 films as I can before I post a list for the Match Cut awards.

Philosophe_rouge

01-17-2008, 06:52 PM

Sunshine just might inspire me to break out of my review writing (semi)-retirement. I read up on the discussion at the old site and no one seemed to say the things that I thought were important about the film. Maybe tonight I'll put something together.
I wasn't a huge fan of this when I saw it in theatres. Unlike most people though, I didn't really have a problem with the third act... I feel it worked in context of the film. Now although near the bottom of my favourite films of the year, it's probably aside from films in my top 5 I'm most anxious to revisit. I'd love to see what you'd have to say.

Rowland

01-17-2008, 07:16 PM

Sunshine just might inspire me to break out of my review writing (semi)-retirement. I read up on the discussion at the old site and no one seemed to say the things that I thought were important about the film. Maybe tonight I'll put something together.Even if you don't write up a full-length review, be sure to post your thoughts. I'd love to read a different angle on the film.

Sunshine is one that I'd like to revisit as well, though I fear that viewing it at home won't match the pure visceral impact it had in the theater, which I felt was its strongest feature.

Rowland

01-17-2008, 07:33 PM

I'm disappointed by how remarkably unexceptional Rescue Dawn wound up being. I was primed to jump on the bandwagon, but I can't think of much to praise it for besides being serviceably engaging and resolutely fine at being exactly what it is. Hrmph.

Sycophant

01-17-2008, 08:21 PM

I don't often like to dismiss films offhand, but The Bucket List is an exception to that, methinks, and, well, it's nice to see Ebert really hating something again (http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080110/REVIEWS/801100301).

Further critic watch: I wish Film Freak Central would update.

Qrazy

01-17-2008, 08:24 PM

I agree with this blurb on Sunshine: "So what starts out as fascinating sci-fi becomes just fi, and winds up pulp fi."

MadMan

01-17-2008, 08:28 PM

Sunshine just might inspire me to break out of my review writing (semi)-retirement. I read up on the discussion at the old site and no one seemed to say the things that I thought were important about the film. Maybe tonight I'll put something together.You stopped writing reviews? That's a damn shame considering you've penned some great ones. Especially that 2001 one that's really fantastic.

For the most part I usually go to this site for thoughts on movies, especially reviews. Many folks around here (largely the FDT bunch) sure know how to write a good piece about a flick.

Dillard

01-17-2008, 08:31 PM

I don't really know what to say about Andrei Rublev, it's my first Tarkovsky and for most of the film there were only brief moments where I was truly engaged. The last hour or so though, easily captured me into a world where art and faith are or can be closely tied together. The final act, that almost feels like a final film awestruck me, only to leave me dissapointed that it was so short. The more I think about the film, replay parts of it, the more it effects me. A unique experience.I saw Rublev as my first Tarkovsky and I also didn't know what to think. I felt like it was a completely new filmic experience for me, even though I wasn't sure what to make of it. As time passed and I saw a couple other Tarkovsky, the films - their themes and images - impressed themselves into my mind (and into my heart, sappy, I know). I think I was ready to declare Tarkovsky my favorite filmmaker after watching Nostalghia and The Sacrifice a couple times each. I find that every film of his is worth visiting, revisiting, and discussing.

Spinal

01-17-2008, 08:32 PM

You stopped writing reviews? That's a damn shame considering you've penned some great ones. Especially that 2001 one that's really fantastic.

For the most part I usually go to this site for thoughts on movies, especially reviews. Many folks around here (largely the FDT bunch) sure know how to write a good piece about a flick.

I've been working on another writing project, so my review output has really slowed down quite a bit.

Boner M

01-17-2008, 08:37 PM

Weekend!

Grindhouse
The War Zone (rpt.)

And a few of these:

A Bucket of Blood
Moonlighting (1982)
The Player (rpt)
Spirit of the Beehive
Good Men, Good Women
Peter Ibbetson

Kurosawa Fan

01-17-2008, 08:38 PM

Weekend:

12:08 East of Bucharest
No End in Sight

dreamdead

01-17-2008, 08:40 PM

Weekend:

Mr. Smith goes to Washington
The Company of Wolves

Possibly Maybes:

Damnation
Atonement

Winston*

01-17-2008, 08:40 PM

Might see either The Darjeeling Limited or The Clover Monster, depending on screening times of the former.

Li Lili

01-17-2008, 08:41 PM

I watched Lost In Beijing by Li Yu, her the third film, I've seen her two previous film : Fish and Elephant (about lesbians, shot in DV), Dam Street (a portrait young woman and her difficulty to live in a moral, traditional society).
Lost in Beijing was presented at The Berlin Film Festival last year and got hit by the Chinese censors for pornography and moral decadence. The production company is forbidden to make another film for 2 years.
Lost In Beijing starts Tony Leung Ka Fai and Fan Bingbing (a very good Chinese actress!). The film is particularly interesting because it really depicts the changing of Chinese society today (the economic boom, the thirst for money, the loss of points of reference, the fast economic and social changing, the corruption, the migrants & workers ....).
I would really recommend it especially the films is very well-acted and well-handled right to the end.

The story : Liu Ping Guo (Fan BingBing) works as a masseuse at reputated massage salon owned by Lin Dong and his wife who wish to have a baby. One night, after drinking with a friend of her, Liu Ping Guo comes back to work drunk. Taking advantage of her, Lin Dong rapes her. Liu Ping Guo's husband who works as a window cleaner (like many migrants), sees the scene. He decides to blackmail the boss and then the boss's wife. But, then, Liu Ping Guo falls pregnant, and her husband thinks that the boss is the father, so he blackmails again (to earn as much money as possible), and a strange agreement between the couple is set....

Philosophe_rouge

01-17-2008, 08:42 PM

I saw Rublev as my first Tarkovsky and I also didn't know what to think. I felt like it was a completely new filmic experience for me, even though I wasn't sure what to make of it. As time passed and I saw a couple other Tarkovsky, the films - their themes and images - impressed themselves into my mind (and into my heart, sappy, I know). I think I was ready to declare Tarkovsky my favorite filmmaker after watching Nostalghia and The Sacrifice a couple times each. I find that every film of his is worth visiting, revisiting, and discussing.
I'll probably be seeing Ivan's Childhood or The Mirror next as those interest me that most as of yet. I don't know how soon I'll get around to it though, I feel like I need to pace myself on this.

Philosophe_rouge

01-17-2008, 08:43 PM

Weeekkkeeend
How Green was my Valley
Farewell, my Concubine
The Band Wagon
Zoo
The Naked Kiss

Rowland

01-17-2008, 08:44 PM

Weekend:

Aqua Teen Hunger Force Movie
Regular Lovers
Golden Door
Cloverfield

Qrazy

01-17-2008, 08:46 PM

I'll probably be seeing Ivan's Childhood or The Mirror next as those interest me that most as of yet. I don't know how soon I'll get around to it though, I feel like I need to pace myself on this.

Watch The Mirror last or near last. Ivan's Childhood is a good bet as is Stalker and The Sacrifice.

Sycophant

01-17-2008, 08:47 PM

Wurkurnd:
Interstella 555
Chameleon Street
Saints and Soldiers
The Orphanage
5 Centimeters Per Second
Dororo
Cloverfield

Sycophant

01-17-2008, 08:48 PM

I watched Lost In Beijing by Li Yu, her the third film, I've seen her two previous film : Fish and Elephant (about lesbians, shot in DV), Dam Street (a portrait young woman and her difficulty to live in a moral, traditional society).Thanks for the report. I keep meaning to check out Li Yu's work, and this might just get me to do it.

MadMan

01-17-2008, 08:50 PM

I've been working on another writing project, so my review output has really slowed down quite a bit.Oh, that makes sense.

Also I had a question for all of you: would you read a top 10 list that started at #1 and worked its way down? I ask you this because I've been writing commentary for my Top 10 of the 2000s and funny enough I'm going in actual order from #1 to #10 (I'm currently stuck on trying to finish thoughts for #6). Especially since this site is chock full of lists....

Weekend:

Snakes On a Plane(2006)
Barbarella(1968)
1941 (maybe)

Sorry potential drinkers but I'll be working on Sunday and thus unable to watch any football. So that won't be on the list. Don't hate me booze lovers :sad:

Stay Puft

01-17-2008, 08:52 PM

I watched Lost In Beijing by Li Yu

I was looking at this a couple days ago, but wasn't sure if it would be worth the plunge (I am unfamiliar with Li Yu's previous work). Sounds good, though - I'll try to check it out.

Qrazy

01-17-2008, 08:59 PM

Marlon Brando made for a fairly poor Zapata.

Li Lili

01-17-2008, 08:59 PM

Thanks for the report. I keep meaning to check out Li Yu's work, and this might just get me to do it.
Especially there aren't many female directors in China (but more than in other Asian countries). Lost in Beijing shouldn't be too hard to find, and far better than Lou Ye's Summer Palace (although very different, but he got banned too).
I've got The Fish and The Elephant, so it can be found too, it's a bit typical of dv production though. Dam Street is more "classical" (it's set in the 80s) but Li Yu knows how to make touching and accurate portrait of her characters and has a pertinent observation of Chinese society.

edit : a couple other female Chinese directors interesting to check out : Ning Ying, Li Shaohong.

Rowland

01-17-2008, 09:00 PM

Exterminating Angels (Brisseau, 2006) - It's like 100 minutes of Shyamalan rocking back and forth on a toilet, cradling his script, being told by a narf that he'll change the world.Hah. Yeah, it's pathologically insular nonsense. Thankfully, while it's still not a good movie, I found it more palatable than the likes of LitW. Probably because of all the sexy shenanigans.

Grouchy

01-17-2008, 09:06 PM

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/HawleyGriffin/Alien_vs_Predator_2_poster_sto ry.jpg?t=1200605473

AVPR: Alien vs. Predator Requiem
The Strause Brothers, 2007

Is anyone here enough of a nerd to have read the first Alien vs. Predator story of all time, the 8-part comic-book that started it all? Written and illustrated by complete strangers (well, to me, at least), this comic's greatest strenght was in the first three issues. You know why? NO. HUMAN. CHARACTERS. Aliens and Predators skinning the everlasting shit out of one another. There was also a voice-over dialogue between two human space travellers, which mimics the action taking place between the non-speaking creatures, but that device (a feature-lenght v.o.) would never work in cinema, and in any case would be too Godardian for an AvP movie. But take those first three issues, cut the boxed dialogue, and you have at least an hour of solid, engaging, fantasy action. Who cares about the humans trapped in the middle? Well, apparently, Hollywood cares. A lot.

The first Alien vs. Predator was a disgrace, and I hope we can all agree on that. Not only it was rated PG-13, it spent a goofy amount of time in exposition and cut the action very short. It changed Giger's Xenomorph designs into something which was unpractical and ugly in a really bad way. It featured the most clichéd storyline possible and tried to make a new Ripley out of that chick from Blade. Whenever there was violence on screen, it was dark, fuzzy, cut seemingly at random, and the geography was all around confusing. It was like Paul The Man Anderson suddenly decided the easiest movie to direct in the world had to be a John Carpenter masterpiece, and then forgot what makes Carpenter's 100% actioners (the Escape duet, Ghosts of Mars) great, which is clear storytelling, sense of timing and amazing set designs - well, that and an actual script. Enter Requiem. Requiem for what, anyhow?

After watching the trailer for this sequel I was tremendously hopeful. It looked like, at least, there was some gore. Well, that's right, there's lots of gore and this is one sadistic little film. Love interests are mercilessly impaled against walls, and plenty of kids under 10 and pregnant women are eviscerated and exploded. One guy gets his face dissolved on screen by Alien slime. The movie also has the good sense to open inside a Predator spaceship, with the birth of a Predalien generated in the previous film. But from then onwards, things are equal or worse than in the original stinker. There at least ten characters with their own subplots in this movie, and all of those stories are discarded by the filmmakers at mid-term. Why in the hell, if all of these dudes are clearly cannon fodder, do we have to watch them getting kicked into the curb by school bullies or having communication issues with their fucking sons? Give me two, three protagonists with actual character arcs and let the rest of the meat be skinned in peace.

The guys who directed this are FX artists with an impressive resume, from the X-Files movie to Titanic. They must've gotten a kick outta the carnage, and, to be fair, they were quite respectful with Yautja and Xenomorph mythos alike. The movie features only one Predator against an increasing horde of Aliens, and that is one cool hunter in both design and attitude. They even introduced the Company (Weyland-Yutani) in a subtle, ironic way. But they failed at the most basic level, which was making a watchable, entertaining action film. The characters make decisions with zero logic, seem to be taking turns to speak and, when they do, they vomit incredibly stupid bullshit. In short, this movie needed a writer, who was probably still on strike. It had a great DP, but it needed a camera operator that explained to the Strauses that drawing with shadows only makes sense when the audience knows what's being outlined in the shadows first. It's a movie that boycotts itself at every turn, and the biggest misstep of all comes at the very end.

Predator fights Predalien, looks like the rumble in the jungle everyone's expecting, and then an atomic nuke comes out of the sky and stops the fight before it even gets started.

I'd rather read one of the trippiest mainstream comics of all time, the Chris Claremont book Aliens vs. Predators: Deadliest of the Species. Now, that's a story that can never be made into a satisfactory movie. Lovers of femdom and drug-free mindfucks, check it out.

Watashi

01-17-2008, 09:08 PM

Weekend:

Cloverfield
Cassandra's Dream
The Good German
Killer of Sheep
Air Guitar Nation

Boner M

01-17-2008, 09:11 PM

Air Guitar Nation
This one's great fun. Hope you enjoy.

Watashi

01-17-2008, 09:12 PM

Yeah, like Rowland, I'm trying to get my documentary fix in for last year considering I've only seen two so far.

Bosco B Thug

01-17-2008, 09:13 PM

I had problems with Sunshine that I don't quite remember... I think it was that it gave compelling portraits of each character's mental states and preoccupations, but failed to tie them all together in any effective way. Eh, this one needs a rewatch.

soitgoes...

01-17-2008, 09:15 PM

Weekend:
Magnificent Butcher
The Naked Prey
Runaway Train
Running Out of Time
The Passenger

soitgoes...

01-17-2008, 09:17 PM

Sunshine features one of the best scores from last year. Just a random tidbit I thought I'd throw out there.

MadMan

01-17-2008, 09:17 PM

baby doll

01-17-2008, 09:18 PM

So, Jia Zhang-ke's Still Life was pretty awesome, even if it has a less interesting story than The World. I can't wait to see it again. Just throwing that out there.

Grouchy

01-17-2008, 09:22 PM

Yeah AVP 2 is a trashy film that's a guilty pleasure at best. Even though the script and screenplay were awful the film does have one great line, which is when that chick goes "The government would never lie to us." My friends and I, who had decided to see this the night of the Iowa caucuses (after we had voted of course) all burst out laughing. Okay two good lines-" You're too stupid to talk Dale. Shut the fuck up." was fairly funny as well.
True, I laughed with both of those.

Another good one was when Dallas said "People are dying! We need to do something!". Well no fucking shit. And you're supposed to be the brains of this outfit.

Ezee E

01-17-2008, 09:28 PM

Weekend:

Cloverfield
The Orphanage

Halloween
28 Up
Cabaret

baby doll

01-17-2008, 09:30 PM

The OrphanageDon't do it! It sucks!

Watashi

01-17-2008, 09:36 PM

Don't do it! It sucks!
You could fill an entire book with films you think suck.

And they have.

Li Lili

01-17-2008, 09:37 PM

So, Jia Zhang-ke's Still Life was pretty awesome, even if it has a less interesting story than The World. I can't wait to see it again. Just throwing that out there.
Yes, Still-Life was good, however to me, his best films are Xiao Wu and Platform. I've been following his works since the beginning. The World was the one that impressed me the less.
Have you seen Dong ? I think it makes Still Life even more interesting.

MadMan

01-17-2008, 09:37 PM

Weekend:

Cloverfield
The Orphanage

Halloween
28 Up
CabaretIs that the remake or the original? The former is surprisingly solid. The latter is of course a horror classic.

Russ

01-17-2008, 09:42 PM

Weekend:

Big Bang Love, Juvenile A
My Neighbor Totoro
Beatdown in Foxboro

Sycophant

01-17-2008, 09:43 PM

Weekend:

Big Bang Love, Juvenile AI totally forgot that this is my YES MUST SEE film of the weekend.

baby doll

01-17-2008, 09:50 PM

Yes, Still-Life was good, however to me, his best films are Xiao Wu and Platform. I've been following his works since the beginning. The World was the one that impressed me the less.
Have you seen Dong ? I think it makes Still Life even more interesting.I haven't seen Dong (or any of his documentaries, actually) though of course I'd love to. The film that impressed me the least was Unknown Pleasures just because it was so ugly; it was the first film of his I saw and I so disliked it at the time that I haven't had the courage to give it another go. I haven't seen Xiao Wu yet (I downloaded it off a torrent site, so I'll probably be seeing it soon), but Platform is indeed heartbreaking (the cousin from the country and Zhao Tao dancing in the post office are especially vivid in my memory), so it's a close call between that film and The World, which just has so many memorable characters in it.

baby doll

01-17-2008, 09:51 PM

You could fill an entire book with films you think suck.

And they have.I also have a pretty long list on my Facebook page of movies I love.

Yxklyx

01-17-2008, 10:00 PM

If we were to vote on best weekend viewings, soitgoes would win with The Passenger and Runaway Train.

My Weekend:

Joshua
The River (Tsai)
maybe; The Ice Storm

origami_mustache

01-17-2008, 10:10 PM

Weekend:
Cloverfield
The Human Condition

soitgoes...

01-17-2008, 10:15 PM

The Human Condition
The whole thing? If so I'm jealous.

origami_mustache

01-17-2008, 10:26 PM

The whole thing? If so I'm jealous.

I have the whole thing...whether I actually get through it all is another story.

Li Lili

01-17-2008, 10:31 PM

I haven't seen Dong (or any of his documentaries, actually) though of course I'd love to. The film that impressed me the least was Unknown Pleasures just because it was so ugly; it was the first film of his I saw and I so disliked it at the time that I haven't had the courage to give it another go. I haven't seen Xiao Wu yet (I downloaded it off a torrent site, so I'll probably be seeing it soon), but Platform is indeed heartbreaking (the cousin from the country and Zhao Tao dancing in the post office are especially vivid in my memory), so it's a close call between that film and The World, which just has so many memorable characters in it.
Well, Dong can also be downloaded on some torrent sites (I didn't need to download it because I got a copy direct from a film festival a couple of years ago).
Xiao Wu is very important to many independent Chinese filmmakers, a film that represents a new way of independent Chinese cinema; it is perhaps as important as Yellow Earth by Chen Kaige was at the time for the 5th generation.
I saw 2 versions of Platform : the one for the festivals and the one for released on dvd. The end was different and the film was a bit longer for the festivals. I love the tone and the subtleties in his films.
Another documentary which I like very much is In Public, perhaps harder to find. You should watch again Unknown Pleasures, you may have another view on it.
Now, there are many films like his, like there are many films about the Three Gorges Dam, not many are as good.
I'm not too sure about his next project, The Age of Tatoo :confused:.

Stay Puft

01-17-2008, 10:32 PM

Hah. Yeah, it's pathologically insular nonsense.

I find it kind of admirable as such. Yeah, it's nonsense - just like LitW - but it's compelling to watch events unfold, to be so far immersed in that worldview. The last fifteen minutes are simply incredible. I immediately thought of Rochester having to be physically maimed before being Jane Eyre's equal in love. Not that the events are similar, but it's that kind of absurd masculine imagery that is just icing on the cake. What a bewildering and unbelievable movie! A qualitative assessment almost seems unnecessary.

Stay Puft

01-17-2008, 10:35 PM

I'm not too sure about his next project, The Age of Tatoo :confused:.

What did you think of Wuyong? Or have you not seen it?

Mr. Valentine

01-17-2008, 11:00 PM

weekend:

Cloverfield
Joshua
rewatch of Pulse (Kairo)

Ezee E

01-17-2008, 11:19 PM

Is that the remake or the original? The former is surprisingly solid. The latter is of course a horror classic.
The Rob Zombie remake. I have no idea what to expect. And that's good.

chrisnu

01-17-2008, 11:59 PM

Sunshine features one of the best scores from last year. Just a random tidbit I thought I'd throw out there.
Indeed it does. Composed by Underworld!

Qrazy

01-18-2008, 12:12 AM

So, Jia Zhang-ke's Still Life was pretty awesome, even if it has a less interesting story than The World. I can't wait to see it again. Just throwing that out there.

Interesting, I just watched Saless's Still Life yesterday (Iranian). It's perhaps the slowest moving film I've ever watched and yet still managed to remain genuine in it's simplicity. It's not perfect, but very affecting all the same.

Qrazy

01-18-2008, 12:18 AM

If we were to vote on best weekend viewings, soitgoes would win with The Passenger and Runaway Train.

My Weekend:

Joshua
The River (Tsai)
maybe; The Ice Storm

Runaway train never going back. Wrong way on a one way track.

Qrazy

01-18-2008, 12:19 AM

The whole thing? If so I'm jealous.

Download it.

Qrazy

01-18-2008, 12:34 AM

Weekend: A few of the following

Distant Voices, Still Lives
Kundun
Les Enfants Terribles
My Name is Joe
Texas Chainsaw Massacre
The Abyss
The Bird People in China
Talk to Her
Napoleon
The Official Story
Senso
Smiles of a Summer Night
Ginger and Fred

megladon8

01-18-2008, 01:07 AM

Watched Hellraiser last night.

It was interesting to do so, having just recently read Barker's "The Hellbound Heart". The book is far better, giving much more insight into the "pain as pleasure" examination, while also just giving a more rounded look at the characters.

However, I still absolutely love the movie, and it's one of my favorites. Going to watch the second installment this weekend in order to decide which I like best. They're very similar to the Alien films, actually - Hellraiser is a close-quarters horror film just like Alien, while Hellbound ups the stakes and widens the scope, giving a more action and spectacle-oriented film.

Anyways, yeh, Hellraiser, it's great.

BirdsAteMyFace

01-18-2008, 02:29 AM

Weekend:
Magnificent ButcherYay!

Weekend; a few of these:
There Will Be Blood
The Taste of Tea
Big Bang Love, Juvenile A
I'm a Cyborg, But That's Okay
The Nines
Fido

Bosco B Thug

01-18-2008, 02:59 AM

Re: The Orphanage
Don't do it! It sucks! Yeah, allow me to indulge myself and pipe in and agree, in retaliation from the frustrating love its getting from my personal sphere (and then further an 84% on RT!).

Lots of people seem to have Miike's Big Bang Love up for the weekend. I'll be viewing it too this weekend.

Mr. Valentine

01-18-2008, 03:15 AM

Lots of people seem to have Miike's Big Bang Love up for the weekend. I'll be viewing it too this weekend.

i watched it last week and continue to be amazed at Miike's ability to competely surprise me with every movie he makes.

origami_mustache

01-18-2008, 03:20 AM

i watched it last week and continue to be amazed at Miike's ability to competely surprise me with every movie he makes.

It's interesting to say the least, I had mixed feeling about certain aspects of it, but it's definitely worth seeing.

Mr. Valentine

01-18-2008, 03:24 AM

i just found out Persepolis opens in my area tomorrow so i'll be seeing that tomorrow night.

Qrazy

01-18-2008, 03:52 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_to_Be_a_God_%282007_film% 29

Color me excited.

Rowland

01-18-2008, 03:58 AM

Good lord, Revolver is ridiculously operatic. Its narrative logic may develop into complete inscrutability in the final reel, but its explicitly spiritual/metaphysical themes shine through loud and clear, and they are bold for this sort of movie. Otherwise, it's frequently inventive and fun, about as much as it is hellishly overwritten and incoherently silly. Still, I can't say I've seen anything quite like it, and the performances go a long way towards selling the material. Statham has a five-minute argument with himself that is a show-stopper. If the movie is a failure, it's at least the overreaching sort that I admire.

Buffaluffasaurus

01-18-2008, 03:58 AM

Saw Grindhouse in its original incarnation last night. It kinda sucked.

Rodriguez's contribution (including his trailer, which was the best of the lot) worked in the sense that he managed to strike a pretty good balance between authentic homage and tongue-in-cheek pisstake. However, he clutters the film with too many characters and stupid plot turns that not only makes it too long, but a far cry from the lean and mean films he's meant to be aping. Marley Shelton's whole character and subplot could've been stricken from the film with no great loss. The film stress effects worked well throughout (I was constantly impressed how the colours accurately achieved the look of stained and aged film stock from the '70s), but Rodriguez fails to maximise the effect by choosing too many elaborate crane and dolly shots that are well out of the realms of traditional grindhouse filmmakers.

Tarantino's effort is much, much worse. I appreciate the fact that he wanted to do a very different take on the whole concept to Rodriguez, but he misfires badly. The incessant dialogue is so self-indulgent and self-enamoured that it's nearly impossible to take, making the protracted climax less enjoyable than desperately necessary. And making Kurt Russell into a whining little girl is about the most juvenile and idiotically obvious reversal possible on this genre.

Both films are 45 minute exercises dragged out to feature length, and both would've benefitted greatly from a real grindhouse-level approach of drastically reduced budgets that would've forced a bit more directorial inventiveness and authenticity. I'm glad this whole thing died at the box office, because it exposes how it's little more than a gloriously misjudged vanity project from filmmakers granted too much critical and commercial cache. It's not without its charms, but it is without a point and a sense of self awareness.

4/10

Boner M

01-18-2008, 04:04 AM

Tarantino's effort is much, much worse. I appreciate the fact that he wanted to do a very different take on the whole concept to Rodriguez, but he misfires badly. The incessant dialogue is so self-indulgent and self-enamoured that it's nearly impossible to take, making the protracted climax less enjoyable than desperately necessary. And making Kurt Russell into a whining little girl is about the most juvenile and idiotically obvious reversal possible on this genre.

Mmm-hmm. Think I might avoid the whole thing tomorrow since I completely share your opinion on DP (though I thought it had a few more virtues - at least the longer cut that was released in our parts two months ago).

Rowland

01-18-2008, 04:05 AM

For what it's worth, I feel that Death Proof works better as a standalone feature, free of its Grindhouse shackles. Still, you kinda have to grok the Tarantino sensibility to really dig it. His heavily dialog-centric approach, and the overly measured vibe he imbues it with probably make Death Proof his most uncompromising effort.

origami_mustache

01-18-2008, 04:07 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_to_Be_a_God_%282007_film% 29

Color me excited.

That should be quite interesting.

Bosco B Thug

01-18-2008, 04:09 AM

i watched it last week and continue to be amazed at Miike's ability to competely surprise me with every movie he makes. I really don't know what to expect from it. I've seen very few non-horror, non-action, non-'Katakuris'-or-'Visitor Q' Miike films.

Saw Grindhouse in its original incarnation last night. It kinda sucked. I disagree on Death Proof... but haha, I've already gotten into it twice (on how I love Death Proof) and I'm sure I'm already pushing it.

Buuuuut, re: the "Russell turns into a whiny wimp" thing, but for the record (to get my argument for it out there), not to make you change your mind (I felt the same way upon first viewing)... upon 2nd viewing, it doesn't seem like as much of a glib turn-around on his character. I mean...

He gets shot, and he actually calms down... but then his wound gets bludgeoned over and over by a metal rod and then in the end, he's probably seriously broken something from the final car collision. Not too far off to assume he can no longer defend himself and is seriously vulnerable.

dreamdead

01-18-2008, 04:15 AM

origami_mustache

01-18-2008, 04:17 AM

Buffaluffasaurus

01-18-2008, 04:29 AM

Mmm-hmm. Think I might avoid the whole thing tomorrow since I completely share your opinion on DP (though I thought it had a few more virtues - at least the longer cut that was released in our parts two months ago).
As a theatre experience is was quite good - the Chauvel was nearly sold out and the audience was whooping it up throughout (until Tarantino's effort pretty much killed all the joy in the room). The trailers got probably the best reactions of the night, mainly the final gag in Edgar Wright's one. His whole trailer is a glorious evocation of 1960s British horror cheapies.

But yeah... if you've already seen Death Proof I don't know that the whole thing if worth seeing since you'll probably spend the whole time dreading DP's interminable dialogue scenes.

For what it's worth, I feel that Death Proof works better as a standalone feature, free of its Grindhouse shackles. Still, you kinda have to grok the Tarantino sensibility to really dig it. His heavily dialog-centric approach, and the overly measured vibe he imbues it with probably make Death Proof his most uncompromising effort
It was a major misjudgment to screen Death Proof after the gonzo Planet Terror and those trailers.

I respect that Tarantino wanted to do something different, but it just didn't fit in the context of the whole "Grindhouse" concept. The basic Death Proof idea could've been made into a wonderfully trashy, 45-minute cheapie that genuinely evokes Vanishing Point rather than just name-dropping it every fucking 15 minutes.

Buuuuut, re: the "Russell turns into a whiny wimp" thing, but for the record (to get my argument for it out there), not to make you change your mind (I felt the same way upon first viewing)... upon 2nd viewing, it doesn't seem like as much of a glib turn-around on his character. I mean...

He gets shot, and he actually calms down... but then his wound gets bludgeoned over and over by a metal rod and then in the end, he's probably seriously broken something from the final car collision. Not too far off to assume he can no longer defend himself and is seriously vulnerable.
It was more his reaction to being shot that I'm talking about than his taking a beating. Tarantino very intentionally spends an uncomfortable amount of time with him screaming and crying about his wound. He's obvious trying to deconstruct everything that makes the character a badass - including the fact he's played by Kurt Goddamn Russell. He's very obviously only cast Russell so that his breakdown (no pun intended) is so unexpected... and in my mind it's a very simplistic and uninteresting twist on the grindhouse experience.

Mr. Valentine

01-18-2008, 04:31 AM

Buffaluffasaurus

01-18-2008, 04:33 AM

Some friends of mine really talked up the Cowboy Bebop series and peaked my interest, however my only experience with anime is the American versions of Dragonball Z and Sailor Moon when I was younger. It's not that I think I would dislike anime, but in general I've sort of limited myself, and avoided most animation in favor of other things. Anyone familiar with the series? What are your thoughts?
I hate most anime with a passion that's normally reserved for kiddie porn, but I love Bebop. It's a phenomenal series, and features perhaps the greatest soundtrack ever for a TV show. What I love most about it is how it balances the standalone episodes (which are, I admit, sometimes hit and miss) with the larger-scale mythology ones, and how the major story arc is so compelling, complete and uncompromising. The final episodes of each season are flat-out masterpieces.

Sure, it does bear the hallmarks of bad anime (the lead female has a ridiculously pervy costume and there's a kid who is incredibly annoying and adds little to the show), but it's so unlike anything I've ever seen in terms of tone and style that I have no hesitation to recommend it.

Sven

01-18-2008, 04:43 AM

The final episodes of each season are flat-out masterpieces.

I liked Bebop alright the first time I saw it. Second time, I couldn't make it through. It all felt like so much posturing. Worst moment: when Spike's old flame gets shot in the head in slow-mo while doves fly and some sentimental tune starts playing. Soooooo terrible.

Buffaluffasaurus

01-18-2008, 04:49 AM

I liked Bebop alright the first time I saw it. Second time, I couldn't make it through. It all felt like so much posturing.
It is very postured, but I like that part of the style. It's very archetypal in the way it treats the characters and story arc, but that's what I like about it. It's like a giant, pan-genre pantomime in space.

Spinal

01-18-2008, 04:50 AM

... (until Tarantino's effort pretty much killed all the joy in the room) ...

:lol:

That was pretty much my experience too.

Sven

01-18-2008, 04:54 AM

It is very postured, but I like that part of the style. It's very archetypal in the way it treats the characters and story arc, but that's what I like about it. It's like a giant, pan-genre pantomime in space.

I can see that, but unfortunately, one of the primary objects of its hyper-cool pantomime (Asian action films--notably John Woo) are already mostly parodies of themselves and increasingly hard to tolerate. In my mind, Spike shouldn't be as straightforwardly "cooool" as he is, because it means that the writers are taking themselves too seriously.

I do dig a lot of it, though. In small doses, it's pretty fun. I like Samurai Champloo better, surprisingly. That one seemed to break away from its mimicking formula enough to display some real invention.

Rowland

01-18-2008, 04:57 AM

Oohh, I just discovered that There Will Be Blood is playing near me. The closest theater is only a few minutes away, but it's a dump in a crummy area of the city, so instead, I'll be making a half hour drive on the thruway to see it somewhere decent. Forget Cloverfield, I'll be seeing this over the weekend.

Buffaluffasaurus

01-18-2008, 05:02 AM

I can see that, but unfortunately, one of the primary objects of its hyper-cool pantomime (Asian action films--notably John Woo) are already mostly parodies of themselves and increasingly hard to tolerate. In my mind, Spike shouldn't be as straightforwardly "cooool" as he is, because it means that the writers are taking themselves too seriously.
I dunno... I liked the balance they struck with him. He is the archetypal lone cowboy of the title, and so the character fit with what I felt they were trying to do. And they do undercut his "coolness" frequently - especially in the episode when the "real" cowboy shows up and they're just shown to be like a couple of petulant kids.

I never really got into Samuari Champloo. Saw the first three episodes and then gave it a miss. The theme song is wretched, which probably had more to do with me not bothering than anything else. :lol:

Philosophe_rouge

01-18-2008, 05:06 AM

Watched two films tonight, and my reactions to either was unexpected.

First, How Green was my Valley (1941), I didn't know what to expect only that I didn't think I'd be enjoy it or be swept up by it. I was pleasently surprised; not only is it a beautiful film, unlike many films of the time it doesn't feel restrained by sets or the indoors, but it's a wonderful and sometimes tragic story about a family in a coal mining town. It's much harsher than I imagine, although it does end on a somewhat happy note.. in context of the opening scene which is never directly referenced again, there is a very real sense that bad only becomes worst. The film does romanticize an era, but doesn't shy from it's harsh realities.

The second film was Farewell my Concubine, which I expected to love, was only dissapointing. I was engrossed for the first half hour or so, but soon afterwards I stopped caring as the characters, and events...surprising for me because few events in recent history anger me more than the Cultural Revolution. The film manages to be overlong, while also failing to truly take the time to emphasis the character's motivations and intentions. The first revalatory moment when Douzi falls in love with Opera, for whatever reason, failed to convince or inspire me... and in turn the rest of the film just fell apart. Also, covering such a wide time period doesn't help... few films suceed at tying the events together, giving them enough time, without feeling rushed or sacrificing the characters or the intention. I find the subject matter fascinating in theory, but the film failed to bring it to life.

Sven

01-18-2008, 05:07 AM

I never really got into Samuari Champloo. Saw the first three episodes and then gave it a miss. The theme song is wretched, which probably had more to do with me not bothering than anything else. :lol:

That theme song does suck. And Bebop's is awesome.

Buffaluffasaurus

01-18-2008, 05:13 AM

That theme song does suck. And Bebop's is awesome.
The theme song was actually how I first came to watch it. It played on an internet radio station I listen to, and I was like, "What the hell is this? I need it!" I ended up buying all of the soundtrack CDs before I even saw the show! :lol:

Sven

01-18-2008, 05:16 AM

On a randomly different note:

The more I think about I'm Not There, the "meh"ier it becomes. Still love Gere's bit, but I find that its overly textual approach (and its hokey whale special effects aside) does little for my need of a cinema that considers geography and lack of David Cross trying to be serious.

The more I think about There Will Be Blood, the better it becomes. As a literal character motivated narrative, I'm beginning to feel satisfied (on themes, though, I still have my issues). Cinematically, I did find the way Anderson painted the desert to be rather dull (you want hellish? see No Country for Old Men... Anderson makes the desert look flat and dusty, like a desert, and you know what? Deserts are BO-ring.) and his floaty little pans were unnecessary (how about those grand pans, PT? the kind we used to love you for?). But Day Lewis and Dano sure do create a resonant impression.

Qrazy

01-18-2008, 05:51 AM

Finally saw Hustle and Flow! Some dreams need to dry up like a raisin in the sun.

Qrazy

01-18-2008, 05:54 AM

Justin

01-18-2008, 06:20 AM

I was thinking today, what the hell happened to My Blueberry Nights?

Sycophant

01-18-2008, 06:27 AM

I was thinking today, what the hell happened to My Blueberry Nights?
Release dates (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0765120/releaseinfo).

Limited in the US starting in four weeks. Cool.

Lucky

01-18-2008, 06:52 AM

I was thinking today, what the hell happened to My Blueberry Nights?

I just watched Fallen Angels tonight and was wondering the same exact thing. I know feelings have been mixed towards the film, but I still can't wait.

Justin

01-18-2008, 06:58 AM

I just watched Fallen Angels tonight and was wondering the same exact thing. I know feelings have been mixed towards the film, but I still can't wait.

I have held off buying that for so long even though there is a used copy at the local record store, how is the transfer on this copy?

http://www.amazon.com/Fallen-Angels-Takeshi-Kaneshiro/dp/B0002X7GY8/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1200643084&sr=8-3

Lucky

01-18-2008, 07:05 AM

I have held off buying that for so long even though there is a used copy at the local record store, how is the transfer on this copy?

http://www.amazon.com/Fallen-Angels-Takeshi-Kaneshiro/dp/B0002X7GY8/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1200643084&sr=8-3

I didn't have any complaints. It was very similar to Chungking Express, I thought.

Bosco B Thug

01-18-2008, 07:18 AM

Neil Jordan's The Company of Wolves is so tied to a certain 80s aesthetic, wherein sequences shift tone and score on the flip of a hat, that it undermines some of the deeper dramas at work in the film. Specifically, the magnificent closing/coda sequence with the wolves in the hallway, which is seriously effed up stuff. Yet for every sequence like that, another exists wherein we get ball costumes and shattered mirrors and unconvincing werewolf effects, which detracts from some frequently stunning cinematography by Jordan's crew. For all of that, the lead young girl is a wonder in the film, and its moments of wonder still offset some cheesy 80s schlock and bad fx. I had a similar reaction, but I don't like to admit it. :P Yeah, I was distracted too. The film partakes in very effective thematic play, but perhaps it is a bit "overcooked."

It was more his reaction to being shot that I'm talking about than his taking a beating. Tarantino very intentionally spends an uncomfortable amount of time with him screaming and crying about his wound. He's obvious trying to deconstruct everything that makes the character a badass - including the fact he's played by Kurt Goddamn Russell. He's very obviously only cast Russell so that his breakdown (no pun intended) is so unexpected... and in my mind it's a very simplistic and uninteresting twist on the grindhouse experience. I find the complaint to be a bit thin... I mean, we're compounding our conception of a "badass" and imposing it on this character when really, it must hurt being shot like that and, I mean, in other instances he is the one purposefully getting himself into full-on, very pain-inducing car collisions... but yeah, I totally see what you mean, no arguments from me here with why it felt forced. :P

MadMan

01-18-2008, 08:01 AM

Ooooh, talk. I have nothing left to say on the matter, although I may write a long review for it someday. But not now as the film is simply too recent and the discussions are very well worn.

[i]To Catch a Thief(1955)
This was pretty much a breazy, entertaining and effortless film from the master of suspense. Alfred Hitchcock could have directed this film in his sleep with one arm tied behind his back, and thus I'm reminded of Steven Soderbergh's Ocean's 11 remake and its sequels, among other films made by directors that are really not requiring much effort. But that's not to say that those films or To Catch a Thief do not involve a great deal of talent, and they still contain a good deal of skill and to a degree intelligence. Hitchcock's film of course greatly benefits from having the wonderously talented Cary Grant and the lovely brilliant actress Grace Kelly as the stars, and they play off of each other and breath much life into what is a rather witty and sharp script. Even though I can't consider this film amongst Hitchcock's best, I can say that I liked it a great deal, maybe even loved it. Oh and the Rivera was simply the perfect backdrop for a man of his considerable talents, and the fireworks scene is everything its really cracked up to be.

origami_mustache

01-18-2008, 10:01 AM

Thanks for the thoughts on Cowboy Bebop everyone...I'll definitely be watching it soon.

Boner M

01-18-2008, 11:14 AM

I've been reading Kent Jones' new compilation book all day:

http://www.anotacoescinefilo.blogger. com.br/joneslivro.jpg

Pretty awesome so far, a must for any fans of exhaustively in-depth but compulsively readable film criticism. His chapter on John Carpenter is particularly excellent.

Raiders

01-18-2008, 02:04 PM

The Company of Wolves ... unconvincing werewolf effects

Are you uh, serious? Those effects are friggin' masterful. You are easily the first person I have ever heard trash and diss those wonderful organic, creepy transformations.

I'm afraid I have to bust out the iosos smiley:

:crazy:

Kurosawa Fan

01-18-2008, 02:09 PM

Well, for some reason Netflix skipped over 12:08 East of Bucharest, so I'll be watching Johnny To's Exiled this weekend instead.

Skitch

01-18-2008, 02:47 PM

Exiled was good...and my first Netflix! :p

dreamdead

01-18-2008, 03:11 PM

Are you uh, serious? Those effects are friggin' masterful. You are easily the first person I have ever heard trash and diss those wonderful organic, creepy transformations.

I'm afraid I have to bust out the iosos smiley:

:crazy:

Sounds like you're being a bit facetious here. Regardless, it's not a bad film. Segments are scary as all getout. When Stephen Rea reappears in the narrative, it's quite haunting. And when the focus remains on Rosaleen, Jordan has an ethereal story. But whenever the stories explore past narratives, the flow kind of dies and relegates the central characters to tangents, whereas the short story doesn't have this ontological hindrance somehow (can't really explain it better than that; my apologies). There's also the slight bothersome issue of the grandmother continually educating Rosaleen on the whole one-eyebrow thing, and then Rosaleen appearing blissfully unaware of when she's in danger. That kind of incredulity bothered me a bit, though if I could be slightly convinced to believe that she's aware the gentleman's a wolf the whole time.

Sven

01-18-2008, 03:15 PM

...though if I could be slightly convinced to believe that she's aware the gentleman's a wolf the whole time.

it's my understanding that the whole point of Carter's story (and the movie, too) is the sexual curiosity and budding appetite for the carnal in a young woman.

dreamdead

01-18-2008, 03:21 PM

it's my understanding that the whole point of Carter's story (and the movie, too) is the sexual curiosity and budding appetite for the carnal in a young woman.

Oh, I know it's there in the Carter short story. That's why I was so bewildered by the understated if not completely expurgated lack of sexual curiosity shown in the film. It's there, but it's there in such minute clips that the reversal at film's end (of the celebratory wolves fleeing together) doesn't work for me like it did in Carter's story. I know they would have to tred carefully to avoid any suggestions of sexual impropiety with the actress, but Rosaleen didn't resonate with these carnal interests like she did in the short story. That's my basic beef, I guess. Thanks for helping me get to it...

Sven

01-18-2008, 03:32 PM

Thanks for helping me get to it...

*tips hat*

Raiders

01-18-2008, 03:39 PM

Oh, I know it's there in the Carter short story. That's why I was so bewildered by the understated if not completely expurgated lack of sexual curiosity shown in the film. It's there, but it's there in such minute clips that the reversal at film's end (of the celebratory wolves fleeing together) doesn't work for me like it did in Carter's story. I know they would have to tred carefully to avoid any suggestions of sexual impropiety with the actress, but Rosaleen didn't resonate with these carnal interests like she did in the short story. That's my basic beef, I guess. Thanks for helping me get to it...

I one had written a long analysis for the film at some site, but who knows where that is. Basically, it said that the whole film is a dream (which it objectively is), a fantasy in which pure Rosaleen is constantly confronted with the monster of the id, the wolf in grandmother's clothing, the secret desire she dare not think about while awake. She is innocent because her character itself represents only one side: the purity she likes to project. The whole of the film, the surroundings, the wolf, etc. represent the seething carnal desires that lurk within. The end, the false return to purity, is interrupted by the innocence being consumed by the wolves. I like to think of it as a furthering of the dream allegory, Rosaleen's conscious decision to give in to her carnal desires.

Mr. Valentine

01-18-2008, 03:53 PM

lovejuice

01-18-2008, 04:14 PM

i feel sad when people's knowledge of anime extends to Dragonball Z & Sailor Moon which turns them off of it. That's like being turned off watching films because the only thing you've seen is the Fast & The Furious and Fantastic Four franchises.

don't know about sailor moon, but dragonball z is an atrocious of anime. and at one time, one of the most famous and popular series. 'tis pretty sad.

Ivan Drago

01-18-2008, 04:14 PM

Worst moment: when Spike's old flame gets shot in the head in slow-mo while doves fly and some sentimental tune starts playing. Soooooo terrible.

There wasn't a sentimental tune playing when that happened. There was when Spike died, though.

Ivan Drago

01-18-2008, 04:25 PM

I saw Across The Universe yesterday at the Student Center here at school last night. I did like it, but there were times when it fucked with my head, like the Mr. Kite sequence. The film also felt like there were some pieces missing, but that's no surprise considering Taymor's dispute with Columbia about the film. Still, there are some awe-inspiring sequences, like Strawberry Fields Forever, Dear Prudence, and the Bono songs. And I never thought Evan Rachel Wood could sing that good. She was great.

Weekend:

Cloverfield
Atonement

Grouchy

01-18-2008, 04:31 PM

Bad werewolf FX in Company of Wolves? Crazy talk. That movie has some of the best special effects of all frigging time, particularly the werewolf transformations.

And Buff, totally agreed on the Grindhouse post. Word by word.

Have you guys ever thought about a Horror version of Sunset Blvd.? Well, producer Sam Arkoff from AIP thought about it too, and came out with Madhouse, starring Vincent Price and Peter Cushing. It's an incredibly goofy, smirking movie which both homages and makes fun of Vincent Price the star, playing himself as an actor who grows too fond of a character named Dr. Death. I loved inside jokes like Cushing dressing up as Dracula for a party or telling Price (very convincingly) that he's the better drama man. This was one of the last low-budget Horrors starring the traditional faces of these types of movies, released by the time The Exorcist took the game back to A-list Hollywood, and works as a homage to the genre and to AIP movies in general, constantly featuring clips of the Roger Corman series of Poe adaptations. Every fan owes himself to watch this at least once.