28 Film Discussion Threads Later [Archive] - Page 218

elixir

05-19-2011, 10:01 PM

Safe was unsettling in the best way. I'm still trying to sort my thoughts out on it and it feels like something where I'll notice so many more things upon each new viewing of it...the environmental illness part seems to be merely ostensibly the subject of it, or the catalyst perhaps...while there is definitely something being said about the toxicity of modern life, it extends way beyond pollution and beyond the normal "suburbia sucks" genre of films...the main character is a void and I feel like it's this absence of self that is the reason for her decline (at least metaphorically), and the self-help center is simply further destroying her chance for a strong personality or any real interactions (the sad glimpses of one with her cooking partner are devastating). While maybe not "realistic" as a person (I don't really give a fuck about that, I'm just saying), the film uses this extreme example of a void, a nothing--a person defined by their negative capabilities and absences (of true friends, of any opinions that seems to strong) to get across its points. The film perfectly captures malaise and one going through the motions and feeling sick from it all (obviously in extremes) and the final moments are ultimately quite depressing I think (though apparently others see it differently).

I feel like I haven't really even begun to gone beneath the surface right now with my incoherent ramblings, but suffice it to say that even if I didn't understand it all, I loved it.

Pop Trash

05-19-2011, 11:03 PM

LOLERSKATES @ your Dancer in the Dark rating elixir. Don't let Spinal see that. Oh and Safe rulez.

soitgoes...

05-19-2011, 11:09 PM

Dancer in the Dark (Lars von Trier, 2000) 3
Ugh. This distracts me from your Safe review. Trier's film is one of the best ever. Spinal's eyes aren't the only ones that need shielding from such things.

Irish

05-19-2011, 11:10 PM

http://i.imgur.com/iIqgG.jpg

Interesting article on the genesis of Paddy Chayefsky's Network script, including photographs of handwritten notes and outlines made during development:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/movies/paddy-chayefskys-notes-for-network-film.htm

Ivan Drago

05-20-2011, 02:19 AM

Wavelength (Michael Snow, 1967) zooooooooooooooooom

You still liked it, though, right?

elixir

05-20-2011, 02:59 AM

You still liked it, though, right?

Not really. I'm not going to call it a bad film and I'm glad I watched it, but it was pretty much just an endurance test for me.

Ivan Drago

05-20-2011, 03:39 AM

Not really. I'm not going to call it a bad film and I'm glad I watched it, but it was pretty much just an endurance test for me.

Aw, dude, I was in a trance throughout the whole movie. I also saw it on projected film which made the experience even more awesome.

You'd probably like WVLNT: Wavelength For Those Who Don't Have The Time.

Watashi

05-20-2011, 06:29 AM

The 400 Blows (Truffaut, 1960) 7.5
Thor (Branagh, 2011) 8.5

This is worse than elixer's Dancer in the Dark rating.

soitgoes...

05-20-2011, 06:45 AM

Weekend:

Il Bidone (Fellini)
The Tiger of Eschnapur (Lang)
A Time to Love and a Time to Die (Sirk)
The Roof (De Sica)
Kapo (Pontecorvo)
Il Generale della Rovere (Rossellini)

soitgoes...

05-20-2011, 06:54 AM

This is worse than elixer's Dancer in the Dark rating.
No it isn't. He nailed the Truffaut rating, and yeah, the Thor rating is high, but nowhere near as off as a 3/10 is to a 10/10.

B-side

05-20-2011, 07:02 AM

Yeah, 400 Blows isn't great. Dancer in the Dark is better.

Watashi

05-20-2011, 07:03 AM

Yeah, 400 Blows isn't great. Dancer in the Dark is better.
Your mom is better.

B-side

05-20-2011, 07:05 AM

Your mom is better.

Dorothy Mantooth is a saint!

Qrazy

05-20-2011, 07:28 AM

Best thing about Dancer in the Dark is that opening credit sequence. The rest of the film is all downhill from there.

elixir

05-20-2011, 08:27 AM

Yeah, 400 Blows isn't great. Dancer in the Dark is better.

No.

elixir

05-20-2011, 08:28 AM

Best thing about Dancer in the Dark is that opening credit sequence. The rest of the film is all downhill from there.

Yes.

elixir

05-20-2011, 08:30 AM

Aw, dude, I was in a trance throughout the whole movie. I also saw it on projected film which made the experience even more awesome.

You'd probably like WVLNT: Wavelength For Those Who Don't Have The Time.

I'm not sure whether to be offended by this or not. Though I don't really think I'll get anything more out of a shorter version.

EDIT: I'm not actually serious about being offended.

elixir

05-20-2011, 08:32 AM

(s) Les mistons (Truffaut 57) ***½

Please tell me you don't rate this higher than The 400 Blows (if you agree with Ivan's rating). But more I'm just interested in this...I'm a pretty big fan of Truffaut, more than most, but this was just alright at best for me. Maybe the least favorite thing I've seen from him so far.

soitgoes...

05-20-2011, 08:57 AM

Please tell me you don't rate this higher than The 400 Blows (if you agree with Ivan's rating). But more I'm just interested in this...I'm a pretty big fan of Truffaut, more than most, but this was just alright at best for me. Maybe the least favorite thing I've seen from him so far.

Yes I do, but for the most part I'm not a big fan of Truffaut at all. It was fun and whimsical and captured youth well for a fifteen minute short. Plus the girl is hot. But really give me Godard and Rohmer for New Wave directors.

elixir

05-20-2011, 11:04 AM

Yes I do, but for the most part I'm not a big fan of Truffaut at all. It was fun and whimsical and captured youth well for a fifteen minute short. Plus the girl is hot. But really give me Godard and Rohmer for New Wave directors.

The girl is indeed hot. I prefer Godard too.

I realize I hadn't anything seen by Rohmer, so I just watched The Bakery Girl of Monceau and I liked it enough that I'm gonna watch the rest of the Six Moral Tales soon.

B-side

05-20-2011, 03:18 PM

The seeds of Mann's now digital cityscape obsession is prevalent in Heat, which, for my money, is as good, if not better, than Miami Vice. Mann contrasts high romance with routine cop/criminal activity, using the former to subvert the latter. The domestic drama feels like the fumbling poem of an awkwardly romantic man(n?), willing to slide into melodrama a bit to further the contrast. The cop/criminal dichotomy is nearly completely destroyed, and the ending really solidifies the muddied waters. The nighttime, neon-lighted metropolitan American backdrop always present behind their respective domestic relationships. Sometimes, it feels threatening. Threatening to pull a character back into something they want to escape from. Sometimes, it feels ripe with possibility. The blurred lights accentuating a romantic conversation. Sometimes, it's both at the same time. It's a wonderful and grand, yet intimate information age crime saga.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3460/3405359533_6ce8b966a1.jpg

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz70/SalvadorDali_2010/vlcsnap-2011-05-20-08h02m47s8_800x335.png

Raiders

05-20-2011, 03:21 PM

Your love of Miami Vice counterbalances your love of Tony Scott. So we're cool, bro.

B-side

05-20-2011, 03:22 PM

Your love of Miami Vice counterbalances your love of Tony Scott. So we're cool, bro.

:pritch:

number8

05-20-2011, 05:09 PM

HAHAHAHAHA.

http://movies.sky.com/blitz/jason-statham-movie-quiz

Sven

05-20-2011, 05:15 PM

HAHAHAHAHA.

http://movies.sky.com/blitz/jason-statham-movie-quiz

I got 16/20. I'm hoping that's not an embarrassing piece of information. I don't know Blitz from The Mechanic.

number8

05-20-2011, 05:16 PM

I actually got 17, although half of them were just lucky guesses. by process of elimination.

Dukefrukem

05-20-2011, 05:33 PM

I got 7 right. Hardest movie quiz ever.

B-side

05-20-2011, 06:47 PM

Forgot to mention how cool the Tom Noonan cameo was in Heat.

Kurosawa Fan

05-20-2011, 09:49 PM

I got 10, and other than the Ritchie films, I don't think I've seen any of those mentioned.

soitgoes...

05-20-2011, 09:51 PM

The Tiger of Eschnapur is a fun film by Fritz Lang. A love triangle set in exotic India featuring Debra Paget as the love interest of a German architect and an Indian maharaja. Beautiful sets and costumes abound. It feels like Lang from the silent era. He put all the film noir aside, and returned to his roots for one last hurrah.

I grew up watching movies where Americans and English played the roles of various cultures. It's always something that has bothered me. I'd much rather roles be played by those of the same culture speaking the language of said culture, but something was quite unsettling having Germans play the roles of the Indians in brown-face. The thought of Aryans playing brown people crossed my mind, but that was more of an amusement than a distraction. It had to do more with just hearing another language, as I guess I have become somewhat desensitized to hearing English in these sorts of roles.

Raiders

05-20-2011, 10:03 PM

I got 13. That's the greatest quiz ever.

soitgoes...

05-20-2011, 10:20 PM

I realize I hadn't anything seen by Rohmer, so I just watched The Bakery Girl of Monceau and I liked it enough that I'm gonna watch the rest of the Six Moral Tales soon.Just know that he doesn't start hitting greatness until My Night at Maud's, but with that film and the following, Claire's Knee, he totally trumps anything that Truffaut ever did.

Qrazy

05-20-2011, 10:30 PM

Just know that he doesn't start hitting greatness until My Night at Maud's, but with that film and the following, Claire's Knee, he totally trumps anything that Truffaut ever did.

Nah, Rohmer never had the formal panache of Truffaut's first three features.

D_Davis

05-20-2011, 10:39 PM

7/20

I guess based on how old I though he looked.

Ivan Drago

05-21-2011, 12:21 AM

13/20, and I haven't even seen most of the films he was pictured in.

StanleyK

05-21-2011, 01:30 AM

La Ciénaga is one of the most palpably dirty films I can remember seeing. The half-naked people sweating like pigs, the pouring rain turning everything into mud, which the people then roll around in... I often rail against movies with abundant editing, but movies like this remind that the problem isn't cutting often, it's cutting limp. Martel cuts hard. She's a wonderful montage filmmaker, evident from the opening scene which emphasizes the noise and the air, evoking a tactility essential to the film's feel; she's also a wonderful writer, creating a cast of convincingly horrible people, none caricaturally bad but all so very hateable. Their pathetic drunkenness, the constant digs at everyone, the blatant racism, the kids playing with guns and large knives... the film is brilliant in that I started it feeling ill because of the filth, and by the end it was indistinguishable from the characters' moral repugnance. Excellent film, maybe marred a little bit by an extraneous subplot concerning people seeing the Virgin Mary leading to a slightly indulgent ending, the only self-conscious bit in an otherwise effortlessly natural ensemble piece.

Ezee E

05-21-2011, 01:42 AM

Wow. Red Beard puts itself right in the top tier of Kurosawa films. Probably his most powerful, affecting movie. When the movie expands into the patients' backstories... Just wow.

Spinal

05-21-2011, 04:09 AM

We're up to 5 Fast and the Furious movies now? Clearly, I haven't been paying attention.

D_Davis

05-21-2011, 04:13 AM

We're up to 5 Fast and the Furious movies now? Clearly, I haven't been paying attention.

What are you some kind of dweeb?

Spinal

05-21-2011, 04:17 AM

What are you some kind of dweeb?

:sad:

Yes.

Dead & Messed Up

05-21-2011, 04:19 AM

We're up to 5 Fast and the Furious movies now? Clearly, I haven't been paying attention.

http://www.krackblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/vin_diesel_paul_walker_the_fas t_and_the_furious_003.jpg
Try and keep up, homes.

Spinal

05-21-2011, 04:23 AM

Try and keep up, homes.

But, you're too darn FAST!!!

soitgoes...

05-21-2011, 05:29 AM

Wow. Red Beard puts itself right in the top tier of Kurosawa films. Probably his most powerful, affecting movie. When the movie expands into the patients' backstories... Just wow.My favorite Kurosawa (maybe Ikiru). Yeah, as it started I questioned how Kurosawa was going to keep my attention for three hours of a rural doctor's drama. But man, the second half is Kurosawa's humanism at its best. It's a shame that the film marked the end of his amazing twenty year run of films. Everything unraveled afterwards. I guess it could be said that Kurosawa's decline started because of the lengthy production of Red Beard.

Kurosawa Fan

05-21-2011, 05:39 AM

My favorite Kurosawa (maybe Ikiru). Yeah, as it started I questioned how Kurosawa was going to keep my attention for three hours of a rural doctor's drama. But man, the second half is Kurosawa's humanism at its best. It's a shame that the film marked the end of his amazing twenty year run of films. Everything unraveled afterwards. I guess it could be said that Kurosawa's decline started because of the lengthy production of Red Beard.

Ran begs to differ.

soitgoes...

05-21-2011, 05:45 AM

Ran begs to differ.
Him trying to kill himself, and going from a film a year release to a film every five agrees with me.

But yeah, Ran, Dersu Uzala and Madadayo are all great, but his career definitely changed post-Red Beard.

transmogrifier

05-21-2011, 05:54 AM

High Plains Drifter - 66

Not as successful as the later Josey Wales, this is a more obtuse affair, and the bitterness and misanthropy on show is off-putting for much of the time. Of course, it all retroactively makes sense given that final scene (which also explains the flashbacks, which made no sense at the time) and the film is the better for it. Definitely one of those films that would be better revisiting with an awareness of what is actually going on, but you can't help but wish it was a little better constructed for the first-timer.

The Five Obstructions - 68

Interesting look at the creative process and the value of not having complete freedom to indulge your ideas - there is something to be said about the filtering that goes on when you have to put your ideas into practice, where you find that you can find certain aspects of your vision disposable that you once thought absolutely crucial. I mean, do we really need to look over George Lucas' career again to be reminded of that? Von Trier is a winning presence here, and the actual short film being remade is an interesting piece of work in iteself and a good choice for the treatment. It's pretty slight at the end of the day, and the ending is a little too obvious, but fun while it lasts.

Ezee E

05-21-2011, 06:06 AM

I was fearful of the three hours either. It's been a while since I've seen any three hour movie. But I was caught within the first twenty minutes. I knew it had to be good as the village was explained person by person.

And then the scene with The Mantis...

Ezee E

05-21-2011, 06:07 AM

Still, there's 3-4 heartbreaking scenes, one right after another. It nearly brought me to tears.

Ezee E

05-21-2011, 06:16 AM

soitgoes...

05-21-2011, 06:25 AM

Kurosawa rated:

Sanshiro Sugata (1943) **½
The Most Beautiful (1944) **½
The Men Who Tread on the Tiger’s Tail (1945) **
Sanshiro Sugata II (1945) *
No Regrets for Our Youth (1946) ***½
One Wonderful Sunday (1947) ***
Drunken Angel (1948) ***½
The Quiet Duel (1949) ***
Stray Dog (1949) ***½
Rashômon (1950) ***½
Scandal (1950) **½
The Idiot (1951) ***
Ikiru (1952) ****
Seven Samurai (1954) ****
I Live in Fear (1955) ***
The Lower Depths (1957) ***
Throne of Blood (1957) ***½
The Hidden Fortress (1958) ***
The Bad Sleep Well (1960) **½
Yojimbo (1961) ****
Sanjuro (1962) ***
High and Low (1963) ***½
Red Beard (1965) ****
Dodesukaden (1970) **½
Dersu Uzala (1975) ***½
Kagemusha (1980) ***
Ran (1985) ***½
Dreams (1990) **
Rhapsody in August (1991) ***
Madadayo (1993) ***½

And that is all of them.

MadMan

05-21-2011, 06:28 AM

I've only seen Seven Samurai (brilliant), Yojimbo (pretty damn good), and The Hidden Fortress (great). I have Sanjuro on DVD, but school took over this month and I haven't been doing any movie watching for weeks now. Also I viewed some of Stray Dog on TV, and I'll have to finish watching that one soon.

soitgoes...

05-21-2011, 06:35 AM

I want to discuss Red Beard some more...
I would love to discuss this one more with you, but I haven't seen it in a good five+ years. I have solid impressions, and I remember the film well enough, but not in detail. I do know that his blocking of actors is perhaps the best of his career.

elixir

05-21-2011, 06:39 AM

I watched all of Vigo's films today, and I must say that I love the guy (and might need to get that box set that's about to be released). He captures whimsy well (i.e. without calculation) and he has a vibrancy and energy that is unmatched by most, lending itself to simply joyous filmmaking. I especially like his longer two features, with Zero de Conduite being a surreal, hilarious (and yes, disjointed, but I don't mind) childhood fantasy and L'Atalante being a deceptively simple love story in which the small moments matter and lead to the grander gestures (the underwater scene being one of the finest and most lovingly rendered scenes I've had the pleasure of watching). The latter especially grew on me over its run-time, and I have a feeling all of his films will be very welcoming and rewarding on re-watches.

Ezee E

05-21-2011, 12:45 PM

I would love to discuss this one more with you, but I haven't seen it in a good five+ years. I have solid impressions, and I remember the film well enough, but not in detail. I do know that his blocking of actors is perhaps the best of his career.
Funny you say that, since this was two years after High & Low, which probably used it to beetter effect in the first half of its movie. However, this uses that same technique for the entire three hours.

B-side

05-21-2011, 02:27 PM

Kurosawa Fan

05-21-2011, 03:03 PM

I want to discuss Red Beard some more, so I hope this doesn't derail that discussion, but I realized that I have a lot of Kurosawa to watch still, and some that are due for a rewatch.

**** Kurosawa movies:
High & Low
Throne of Blood
Red Beard

Like soitgoes, it's been a long time for me with Red Beard as well. Probably closer to ten years than to five. Here's a quick ranking of the Kurosawa films I've seen:

1. Ran - ****
2. Ikiru
3. Throne of Blood
4. Red Beard
5. Yojimbo
6. Seven Samurai
7. High and Low
8. Stray Dog
9. Sanjuro
10. Rashomon - ***1/2
11. Madadayo
12. Dersu Uzala
13. Kagemusha
14. The Lower Depths
15. Hidden Fortress
16. Akira Kurosawa's Dreams
17. Drunken Angel - ***
18. Rhapsody in August - *1/2

Rhapsody in August is his only film that I dislike, pretty strongly, actually. I have five or six of his films in my possession that I haven't seen yet, and I hope to get to some of them this summer.

StanleyK

05-21-2011, 03:29 PM

The Curse of the Were-Rabbit is pretty good. It's got all the exciting action, well-constructed character humor and fun with genre conventions (the best way to make a pop culture reference: ingrain it into the film's story and themes while still keeping its unique, recognizable style. This film has to contain the best riffs on A Clockwork Orange and The Fly ever) that the shorts have. But I think that the short movie format is ideal for Wallace and Gromit; at 80 minutes, this is just too damn long. By the end, it starts to wear out and falls back on stale gags and lame puns. I fully expect A Matter of Loaf and Death to be superior.

Sven

05-21-2011, 08:51 PM

I fully expect A Matter of Loaf and Death to be superior.

'S not.

soitgoes...

05-21-2011, 10:11 PM

Rhapsody in August is his only film that I dislike, pretty strongly, actually. I have five or six of his films in my possession that I haven't seen yet, and I hope to get to some of them this summer.I probably give it more of a pass because of it being the third to last film of his I watched. It fits in well with his whole filmography, but there are some problems evident. Regardless, it is miles better than Sanshiro Sugata II.

MadMan

05-21-2011, 10:22 PM

I'd place Curse of the Were-Rabbit only below The Wrong Trousers. A Matter of Loaf and Death was still great, though. My favorite is A Grand Day Out.

Winston*

05-21-2011, 11:26 PM

The rabbit that thinks he's Wallace is the funniest thing of all time.

Derek

05-21-2011, 11:30 PM

I'd place Curse of the Were-Rabbit only below The Wrong Trousers. A Matter of Loaf and Death was still great, though. My favorite is A Grand Day Out.

Wait, so Were-Rabbit is only below Wrong Trousers meaning that your favorite, A Grand Day Out, would still be below both of them?

Spinal

05-21-2011, 11:45 PM

Wait, so Were-Rabbit is only below Wrong Trousers meaning that your favorite, A Grand Day Out, would still be below both of them?

Well, there is a precedent. (http://www.match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=272380&postcount=14)

Qrazy

05-21-2011, 11:51 PM

Well, there is a precedent. (http://www.match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=272380&postcount=14)

Is Madman the supreme court equivalent of MatchCut?

StanleyK

05-22-2011, 02:02 AM

'S not.

Well, a man can hope...

Wait, so Were-Rabbit is only below Wrong Trousers meaning that your favorite, A Grand Day Out, would still be below both of them?

Sounds to me like a case of separating 'best' from 'favorite'. I don't understand it myself, but plenty of folks do that.

StanleyK

05-22-2011, 02:10 AM

I think I didn't 'get' All About Eve. I recognize its formal excellence and the rich characterizations, but the actual drama did nothing for me. I kept thinking about Sunset Blvd. (I realize this approach gets me nowhere, but I couldn't help it), and for two meta movies about acting with after-the-fact voiceover and a tendency to neatly explain motivations, the latter somehow strikes me as more subtle and meaningful. I don't know, there isn't something I can point out and say that bothered me about this movie, it just never engaged me. I probably need another viewing with a few months' distance.

Qrazy

05-22-2011, 02:22 AM

Kurosawa Fan

05-22-2011, 02:50 AM

I probably give it more of a pass because of it being the third to last film of his I watched. It fits in well with his whole filmography, but there are some problems evident. Regardless, it is miles better than Sanshiro Sugata II.

Haven't seen that one yet (obviously) and with everything I've read about it, I'm in no rush.

transmogrifier

05-22-2011, 03:01 AM

Pale Rider - 62

It's been interesting watching High Plains Drifter, The Outlaw Josey Wales and Pale Rider back to back - you can see a clear shift away from edgy, amoral violence (and a morally dubious protagonist) towards a more sandpapered, morally pure vision (and more conventional in a narrative and directiorial sense as well). At least Eastwood had the good sense to take a step back for Unforgiven and aim for a more mediative, melancholy mood piece before leaving the Western behind - because though Pale Rider is entertaining enough, it is remarkably cookie-cutter and just (almost, not quite) verging on self-parody.

baby doll

05-22-2011, 03:50 AM

The Insider is Manntastic. The blocking is quintessential Mann. A lot of over the shoulder and shots near the face and eyes. The handheld is immaculate. Mann and Spinotti work very well together. It lacks the romanticism of his crime films, but the measured narrative maintains a brisk clip. It's just very capably mounted and certainly among his best.Just out of curiosity, how is that any different from the vast majority of contemporary Hollywood features, which rely heavily on over-the-shoulder shots and close-ups during dialogue sequences? And isn't the whole point of handheld camerawork that it's noticably not immaculate?

Dead & Messed Up

05-22-2011, 07:41 AM

It was a Trek-a-thon.

Most of them were "new views" (I've only ever seen Wrath of Khan before), so I'm having trouble holding it all together in my brain, and the overabundance of sitting and sugary foods and staring at a screen gave me a headache, so I'll be brief.

I was intriguing and overlong.
II was simplistic and satisfying.
III was fun and incomplete.
IV was ridiculous and lovable.
V was ridiculous and awful.
VI was admirable and conclusive.

I didn't find a hell of a lot to love, so variable was the tone and style and type of story, but I respected most of what I saw. Now, I'm going to go pass out. We'll be watching the four TNG films and the reboot tomorrow.

MadMan

05-22-2011, 09:45 AM

Wait, so Were-Rabbit is only below Wrong Trousers meaning that your favorite, A Grand Day Out, would still be below both of them?Yep. Favorite doesn't equal best. Not sure why that's a hard concept, but hey there it is, I guess.

Ratings/rankings for all of the Wallace and Gromits:

1. The Wrong Trousers-10.0
2. Curse of the Were-Rabbit-10.0 (or 9.5, depending on my mood)
3. A Matter of Loaf and Death-9.5
4. A Close Shave-9.0
5. A Grand Day Out-9.0/8.5, not really 100% sure.

While I haven't seen Sunset Blvd, I think All About Eve is magnificent. However, its bested by In An Lonely Place, from the same year, which to me is just slightly more masterful.

When it comes to the original series Star Trek movies, I haven't seen the first one yet. But I think Khan is great, Search for Spock is underrated, IV is decent at best (and thus overrated by fans), V is not a good movie-its really messy, and in the end it fails, and that VI is near great. The reboot is better than all of those save for II and VI.

B-side

05-22-2011, 10:59 AM

Just out of curiosity, how is that any different from the vast majority of contemporary Hollywood features, which rely heavily on over-the-shoulder shots and close-ups during dialogue sequences? And isn't the whole point of handheld camerawork that it's noticably not immaculate?

Mann's framing is certainly formidable, though not exactly wholly unique, no. The Mann stamp is placed on the events mostly in the sequence of shots and the staging. I don't know of many contemporary Hollywood directors who use over-the-shoulder shots the way Mann does, and you'll notice I said "near the face and eyes," not close-ups. I didn't bother to grab any great examples of this while I had the films on my hard drive, but if you're saying you don't think Mann has much of a visual style, I'd have to disagree wholeheartedly.

Winston*

05-22-2011, 10:59 AM

I would like to know the objective criteria one uses to judge the best Wallace and Gromit film.

StanleyK

05-22-2011, 01:52 PM

Yep. Favorite doesn't equal best. Not sure why that's a hard concept, but hey there it is, I guess.

It's hard to understand because it implies that you are making two separate judgments on movies, one subjective, and the other from an objective viewpoint. As Winston* says, the latter is impossible, for Wallace & Gromit or any other movie.

Raiders

05-22-2011, 02:52 PM

Ah, MadMan. He's probably not the best poster, but he is usually my favorite.

Boner M

05-22-2011, 03:03 PM

I don't know what's so hard to understand about MadMan's position. Best = most accomplished / Favorite = worst. Pretty simple, really.

Dukefrukem

05-22-2011, 03:38 PM

When it comes to the original series Star Trek movies, I haven't seen the first one yet. But I think Khan is great, Search for Spock is underrated, IV is decent at best (and thus overrated by fans), V is not a good movie-its really messy, and in the end it fails, and that VI is near great. The reboot is better than all of those save for II and VI.

If I Were to post the ManMan gif here, you have no right to be angry.

Dukefrukem

05-22-2011, 03:42 PM

It was a Trek-a-thon.

Most of them were "new views" (I've only ever seen Wrath of Khan before), so I'm having trouble holding it all together in my brain, and the overabundance of sitting and sugary foods and staring at a screen gave me a headache, so I'll be brief.

My take for the hell of it.

I was boring and reiterated.
II was overrated and overrated.
III was the best in the series.
IV was ridiculous and lovable. (yes)
V was ridiculous and awful.
VI was awful and awful.

Sven

05-22-2011, 03:42 PM

It's hard to understand because it implies that you are making two separate judgments on movies, one subjective, and the other from an objective viewpoint.

Strangely, ask anyone what they think the best part of a movie is and I bet you it's their favorite part.

EyesWideOpen

05-22-2011, 03:45 PM

I can understand people differentiating between best and favorite. Moulin Rouge is one of my favorite movies. Would I consider it one of the best movies ever, um no.

Dukefrukem

05-22-2011, 03:46 PM

It's hard to understand because it implies that you are making two separate judgments on movies, one subjective, and the other from an objective viewpoint. As Winston* says, the latter is impossible, for Wallace & Gromit or any other movie.

I'll give you an example.

The Chronicles of Riddick

MY grade: 75
Actual Grade: 45

It's one of my favorite movies.

Mysterious Dude

05-22-2011, 03:49 PM

I give my highest score to all my favorite movies.

If "best" and "favorite" are different things, it seems silly to me to think that one can declare which films are the best. That's for history to decide.

elixir

05-22-2011, 03:51 PM

I'll give you an example.

The Chronicles of Riddick

MY grade: 75
Actual Grade: 45

It's one of my favorite movies.

How did you determine the "actual grade" here? That is--why isn't your grade the actual grade? What's the difference?

EyesWideOpen

05-22-2011, 03:53 PM

I give my highest score to all my favorite movies.

I definitely do that too. But at the same time if I was asked to make a list of the best movies of all time and my favorite it would be quite different.

Dukefrukem

05-22-2011, 03:54 PM

How did you determine the "actual grade" here? That is--why isn't your grade the actual grade? What's the difference?

The difference is I can see through the movie's many flaws to love the film.

So I guess I'm agreeing with MadMan here.

elixir

05-22-2011, 03:56 PM

The difference is I can see through the movie's many flaws to love the film.

So I guess I'm agreeing with MadMan here.

I guess I still don't get this. Does each flaw dock the movie 5 points in the actual grade? When you look at it holistically, if you still think the movie is more good than bad, why wouldn't the "actual grade" be a positive score? (And incidentally, you only give a 75 to one of your favorite movies?)

B-side

05-22-2011, 03:56 PM

You wouldn't know from his use of the frame, but apparently John Ford wasn't all that taken with widescreen. The Horse Soldiers was a pleasant surprise. At this point in time, Ford feels a bit anachronistic. Not in a bad way, mind you, but there's a feeling that his form and sensibilities belong more in the black and white classic Hollywood era. I'm sure this happens with many directors of his era and age. Anyway, this has to be the first Ford film I've seen that sees the action from the point of view of the Yankees. The big generational conflict here is between Holden as Kendall, a doctor forced into the action, and John Wayne's aged veteran Marlowe, reluctant to bring a doctor and med supplies along as opposed to more artillery. One change I've noticed in Ford's later years is that he begins to more directly address racial issues. Typically the tension is between the Natives and the Caucasian soldiers, but here the tension revolves around the Confederates and slave labor and the Union's displacement among it.

Marlowe isn't exactly free of his own prejudice, evident in his frustration with Kendall leaving the soldiers to help deliver a black child. Ford muddies the moral waters as he usually does, but here in a few unique ways. First of all, Marlowe's aggravation with Kendall is revealed to have much to do with a bad diagnosis of his late wife that ended up killing her. What's odd here is that more advanced medical techniques would've prevented this, so perhaps Marlowe, a man whose age and outdated ideals are highlighted, is more angry at the lack of satisfactory progression in the medical field, which is a neat contradiction of his outdated ideals. Second, when Hannah Hunter's, a southern woman brought along for the ride because she spied on a key meeting detailing the group's plan of action, maid, a black woman, is seemingly targeted and killed in action in the south in a surprise attack, Ford plays Hannah and her relationship as somewhat sisterly and perhaps not as racially tinged as once thought.

Marlowe ends up taking the blame as he insisted they come along because of what they knew and adopts a sort of self-loathing and self-sacrificing demeanor, which moves his character arc in a surprising direction. Given the state of racial segregation issues when the film was released, and how and when Ford was raised, it's hard for me to not be pleased with Ford's sympathy for other races. Sergeant Rutledge may be a bit more palatable in this regard if only because not two decades earlier, black people were fighting even harder for rights on the basis of their military service, and that film utilizes that premise well.

Derek

05-22-2011, 03:59 PM

I'll give you an example.

The Chronicles of Riddick

MY grade: 75
Actual Grade: 45

It's one of my favorite movies.

If I Were to post the ManMan gif here, you have no right to be angry.

Derek

05-22-2011, 04:00 PM

Sans Soleil (Chris Marker, 1983) 4

Dude. Your 10 for L'Atalante is almost enough for me to overlook this, but uh, what's going on here?

Dukefrukem

05-22-2011, 04:01 PM

I guess I still don't get this. Does each flaw dock the movie 5 points in the actual grade? When you look at it holistically, if you still think the movie is more good than bad, why wouldn't the "actual grade" be a positive score? (And incidentally, you only give a 75 to one of your favorite movies?)

I just made up an arbitrary number (75) since I don't track movies that way.

Qrazy

05-22-2011, 04:33 PM

StanleyK

05-22-2011, 04:41 PM

Moulin Rouge is one of my favorite movies. Would I consider it one of the best movies ever, um no.

The difference is I can see through the movie's many flaws to love the film.

I just can't understand this. It's insane to me. If you think a movie is so flawed, how can you love it? If you you think a movie is far from the best then how can it be one of your favorites?

MY grade: 75
Actual Grade: 45

What are the criteria you use for the different scales? Does the 'actual' grade not factor in your enjoyment of the film, for example? If so, why not?

StanleyK

05-22-2011, 04:45 PM

It's pretty god damn simple people and I've explained this in the past.

Favorite: Subjective appraisal of a film based upon personal emotional response, nostalgia and/or elements of the film that speak to your individual identity.

Best: Different form of subjective appraisal of a film whereby you are rating/ranking the film based primarily on formal elements whether it's visual/script/acting or otherwise and not on whether one of the characters in the film reminded you of your great grandmother.

Both are subjective appraisals, they're just different forms of subjective appraisal.

I have a much more simple method: if the movie is good, I like it. If I don't like the movie, it's because it isn't good.

Since as you said all forms of appraisal are subjective, I don't see the point of separating your emotional reaction to the film from its formal qualities. It's the same damn movie.

Dukefrukem

05-22-2011, 04:46 PM

I just can't understand this. It's insane to me. If you think a movie is so flawed, how can you love it? If you you think a movie is far from the best then how can it be one of your favorites?

What are the criteria you use for the different scales? Does the 'actual' grade not factor in your enjoyment of the film, for example? If so, why not?

It's too insane for your comprehension therefore I am not going to explain it.

StanleyK

05-22-2011, 04:47 PM

Dude. Your 10 for L'Atalante is almost enough for me to overlook this, but uh, what's going on here?

Yeah, I was gonna rep elixir for being the sane man in this discussion, but that made me do a double-take.

elixir

05-22-2011, 04:50 PM

Dude. Your 10 for L'Atalante is almost enough for me to overlook this, but uh, what's going on here?

I'm having a bit of trouble articulating my dislike/distaste for it, but I'll try. I hated the narration--I'm trying hard to avoid the word pseudo-philosophizing, but it was just completely humorless and bombastic...whereas something like F For Fake's narration is fun yet still very thought-provoking. I found its associative framework underwhelming, its connections either too obvious or not there at all, and something like Isle of Flowers does globe-trotting better in under 20 minutes than this does in 140. I'm not just namedropping to be annoying, just trying to explain myself. And for more namedropping, its visiting of Vertigo locations was nice, but it just made me think of how much of a better movie that is. Essentially, I found it not very compelling and I don't want to say pretentious, but it did feel like the movie carried a sense of importance that I didn't feel was there. Uh...yeah.

elixir

05-22-2011, 04:51 PM

It's pretty god damn simple people and I've explained this in the past.

Favorite: Subjective appraisal of a film based upon personal emotional response, nostalgia and/or elements of the film that speak to your individual identity.

Best: Different form of subjective appraisal of a film whereby you are rating/ranking the film based primarily on formal elements whether it's visual/script/acting or otherwise and not on whether one of the characters in the film reminded you of your great grandmother.

Both are subjective appraisals, they're just different forms of subjective appraisal.

I guess my problem here is that the two are inextricably linked (the two subjective appraisals).

elixir

05-22-2011, 04:51 PM

Yeah, I was gonna rep elixir for being the sane man in this discussion, but that made me do a double-take.

There are worse things than being insane.

StanleyK

05-22-2011, 04:54 PM

I'm having a bit of trouble articulating my dislike/distaste for it, but I'll try. I hated the narration--I'm trying hard to avoid the word pseudo-philosophizing, but it was just completely humorless and bombastic...whereas something like F For Fake's narration is fun yet still very thought-provoking. I found its associative framework underwhelming, its connections either too obvious or not there at all, and something like Isle of Flowers does globe-trotting better in under 20 minutes than this does in 140. I'm not just namedropping to be annoying, just trying to explain myself. And for more namedropping, its visiting of Vertigo locations was nice, but it just made me think of how much of a better movie that is. Essentially, I found it not very compelling and I don't want to say pretentious, but it did feel like the movie carried a sense of importance that I didn't feel was there. Uh...yeah.

Your Isle of Flowers mention won you the rep. Awesome, underseen film.

Out of curiosity, have you seen La Jetée? Because while I loved Sans Soleil, I was underwhelmed by that one.

elixir

05-22-2011, 05:02 PM

Your Isle of Flowers mention won you the rep. Awesome, underseen film.

Out of curiosity, have you seen La Jetée? Because while I loved Sans Soleil, I was underwhelmed by that one.

I have. I was also also underwhelmed by it.

B-side

05-22-2011, 05:04 PM

Irish

05-22-2011, 05:09 PM

I was boring and reiterated.
II was overrated and overrated.
III was the best in the series.
IV was ridiculous and lovable. (yes)
V was ridiculous and awful.
VI was awful and awful.

These rankings make more sense if you apply them to the Star Wars films.

I'm not yet convinced you've actually viewed anything from Gene Roddenberry's universe.

Qrazy

05-22-2011, 05:12 PM

I guess my problem here is that the two are inextricably linked (the two subjective appraisals).

Except that they're not really as anyone who favors the best/favorite split will attest. They are certainly linked but not inextricably so. For instance I think Andrei Rublev is the greatest film Tarkovsky ever made. I still prefer Stalker though because the atmosphere and aesthetic of that film hit me more fully. I'd give both films full marks on any scale really but I find this distinction valuable in thinking about these films. Usually best and favorite are the same for me but often enough they're not. Because something is subjective doesn't make all individual subjective evaluations relative to each other. That is to say that I have many different criteria by which I judge a film... what I feel to be quality acting, an aesthetic that appeals to me, emotional investment, character, quality music, nostalgia, associative effects, etc.

Different films accomplish these goals to varying degrees. Some films don't even attempt some of these points and that's fine too. Ultimately a film has to be treated holistically. Perhaps the 'best'/'favorite' distinction is itself simply too simplistic. Rather we should say this director's film most fully pleased me while his other film here featured the best acting and this other film featured a wonderful sequence and what have you. Or maybe we should do away with value judgements entirely and simply analyze the semiotics of the film. Anyway, it doesn't matter, my point is only that there's nothing wrong with maintaining a best/favorite distinction, unless the person making that distinction believes that best implies objective validity.

Much of the issue here seems to be people taking issue with the term 'best' as it connotes an absolute quality.

Dukefrukem

05-22-2011, 05:14 PM

These rankings make more sense if you apply them to the Star Wars films.

I'm not yet convinced you've actually viewed anything from Gene Roddenberry's universe.

I think If i were to rate the Star Wars Saga, I would have enjoyed every one of them except for the second one.

As for Star Trek, I find the majority of them considerably boring until Picard takes over. I don't know how anyone could sit through the first movie twice... It's unbearable.

B-side

05-22-2011, 05:15 PM

Or maybe we should do away with value judgements entirely and simply analyze the semiotics of the film.

I fear I'm heading in this direction.

Irish

05-22-2011, 05:17 PM

As for Star Trek, I find the majority of them considerably boring until Picard takes over. I don't know how anyone could sit through the first movie twice... It's unbearable.

That's some kind of heresy where I come from. Picard? Really?

I was mostly joking about the ratings, although you're the first person I've ever come across who called Khan overrated and thought Search for Spock was the best of the series.

soitgoes...

05-22-2011, 05:17 PM

I fear I'm heading in this direction.
Thank god, because your value judgments are the worst.

Dukefrukem

05-22-2011, 05:20 PM

That's some kind of heresy where I come from. Picard? Really?

I was mostly joking about the ratings, although you're the first person I've ever come across who called Khan overrated and thought Search for Spock was the best of the series.

Yes Picard is the superior officer.

And I should say that I absolutely love the ending to Khan and how it ties with the Search for Spock. I just don't care for first half.

Qrazy

05-22-2011, 05:22 PM

I have a much more simple method: if the movie is good, I like it. If I don't like the movie, it's because it isn't good.

Since as you said all forms of appraisal are subjective, I don't see the point of separating your emotional reaction to the film from its formal qualities. It's the same damn movie.

They aren't all subjective in the same way. And you aren't separating your emotional reaction to the film from its formal qualities. What you're doing is recognizing that certain qualities in a work which are distinctly personal to you... like a film which addresses a fear of water and thus connects with you because you also fear water has little to do with the quality of the work. That aspect may make the film your favorite film, but it doesn't make it the director's most accomplished film.

Your method is too simple and you know it isn't true. If you like or dislike a movie there may be many reasons other than the fact that it is or isn't good. Perhaps it was a first viewing and you'll change your mind later, perhaps you viewed it with someone who mocked it throughout thus coloring your judgment, perhaps a character reminded you of your ex-girlfriend and you thought Fuck this Shit as a result, and on and on. You are suggesting an absolute quality to your own subjective evaluations which isn't there. Some aspects of a work can be appraised by the collective subjectivity (what we tend to term objectivity) while other aspects are more personally subjective (nostalgia).

B-side

05-22-2011, 05:25 PM

Thank god, because your value judgments are the worst.

Yeah, well, your mother isn't very discerning when evaluating potential sexual partners.

Qrazy

05-22-2011, 05:26 PM

Yeah, well, your mother isn't very discerning when evaluating potential sexual partners.

Are you referring to his father?

B-side

05-22-2011, 05:30 PM

Are you referring to his father?

No, see, the joke was that I was trying to imply that his mother was a whore, but in less blunt terms. Clearly my wit is too complex for your feeble brain.

Irish

05-22-2011, 05:30 PM

You wouldn't know from his use of the frame, but apparently John Ford wasn't all that taken with widescreen. The Horse Soldiers was a pleasant surprise.

What's the most mystifying about this movie -- aside from how it could be such a pile of shit considering the cast and director -- is that it's sandwiched in time right in between two of Ford's best: The Searchers and Liberty Valance.]

Edit: I did think the rest of your take on it was interesting, though.

B-side

05-22-2011, 05:37 PM

What's the most mystifying about this movie -- aside from how it could be such a pile of shit considering the cast and director -- is that it's sandwiched in time right in between two of Ford's best: The Searchers and Liberty Valance.

Edit: I did think the rest of your take on it was interesting, though.

Ha, fair enough. Maybe I just watched it in the right mood or something, but it was a great time.

Somewhat related, I'm not quite sure why I've settled on Ford for this recent obsessive streak. I've only watched one foreign language film since the 2nd. I've needed Ford's trademark warmth lately to help me keep spirits high during some intense personal problems, I guess.

Dukefrukem

05-22-2011, 05:43 PM

No, see, the joke was that I was trying to imply that his mother was a whore, but in less blunt terms. Clearly my wit is too complex for your feeble brain.

So what does it your say about your brain not able to detect his joke about relating the obvious connection with his mother to his father?

Spinal

05-22-2011, 05:44 PM

Didn't mean to trigger the best vs. favorite rating discussion again. I will try to exercise more responsible posting in the future.

Dukefrukem

05-22-2011, 05:45 PM

Didn't mean to trigger the best vs. favorite rating discussion again. I will try to exercise more responsible posting in the future.

I accept your apology.

I am off to my soccer game gents.

B-side

05-22-2011, 05:45 PM

So what does it your say about your brain not able to detect his joke about relating the obvious connection with his mother to his father?

I got that, but I thought he thought that I was implying that his father was ugly or something. We've ruined my brilliant joke with all this post-joke analysis.

Irish

05-22-2011, 05:49 PM

I got that, but I thought he thought that I was implying that his father was ugly or something. We've ruined my brilliant joke with all this post-joke analysis.

Not my favorite joke of yours, but probably the best one.

Russ

05-22-2011, 05:50 PM

Didn't mean to trigger the best vs. favorite rating discussion again. I will try to exercise more responsible posting in the future.
I do believe this is probably my favorite post ever by you. But it's simply not the best. And, while I think I definitely prefer this post, it just doesn't hold a candle to this (http://match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=346715&postcount=54460).

:)

B-side

05-22-2011, 05:51 PM

Not my favorite joke of yours, but probably the best one.

It was OK. 88/100.

Irish

05-22-2011, 05:53 PM

It was OK. 88/100.

Or, on Duke's scale: 88/38 +/- 3%

B-side

05-22-2011, 05:55 PM

Or, on Duke's scale: 88/38 +/- 3%

:lol:

B-side

05-22-2011, 05:56 PM

I kid because I love, guys. No homo. Well, actually, I haven't seen what Duke looks like, so maybe homo. Maybe.

StanleyK

05-22-2011, 09:09 PM

Your method is too simple and you know it isn't true.

Nope; but whateva, if separating best from favorite keeps you happy, then we can just agree to disagree.

You crazy weirdo. ;)

I've just seen Possession and wow, what a wonderfully, gloriously insane movie. Anna's breakdown at the church and the train station, Heinrich randomly twitching on the staircase, the worst PI doing the worst tailing job ever... excellent stuff, alternately hilarious and horrifying, and much like most great comedies, sometimes both at the same time. I really don't know what to make of the ending, to be honest; the film is utterly confounding and maybe just a tad too long, but thanks to the wacked-out cinematography (perfect for representing the character's frame of mind) and dialogue (utterly charming in how hard it tries to be profound while still appearing to be gibberish), it's constantly entertaining.

soitgoes...

05-22-2011, 11:35 PM

Yeah, well, your mother isn't very discerning when evaluating potential sexual partners.:cry:

soitgoes...

05-23-2011, 12:09 AM

Dude. Your 10 for L'Atalante is almost enough for me to overlook this, but uh, what's going on here?

Says this guy -

The Time to Live and the Time to Die (Hou, 1986) **½This is like some payback for some mediocre French film I didn't love, isn't it?

Glad you liked A Summer at Grandpa's well enough. Are you going to watch Dust in the Wind next?

Sven

05-23-2011, 12:42 AM

Some days (like today) I think the only two Woody Allen movies needed are Broadway Danny Rose and Deconstructing Harry. I mean, I know he's got other great films, but those two are, like... indispensable.

Dukefrukem

05-23-2011, 02:15 AM

Or, on Duke's scale: 88/38 +/- 3%
:lol:

I kid because I love, guys. No homo. Well, actually, I haven't seen what Duke looks like, so maybe homo. Maybe.

www.facebook.com/Dukefrukem

Derek

05-23-2011, 02:17 AM

Says this guy -

This is like some payback for some mediocre French film I didn't love, isn't it?

Glad you liked A Summer at Grandpa's well enough. Are you going to watch Dust in the Wind next?

Actually, just finished City of Sadness, never picked up Dust in the Wind. Will post thoughts on one or two Hou's asap.

Some days (like today) I think the only two Woody Allen movies needed are Broadway Danny Rose and Deconstructing Harry. I mean, I know he's got other great films, but those two are, like... indispensable.

Haven't seen BDR (on my radar, obviously) and I do like Deconstructing Harry more than most MCers (it's inexplicably underrated here it seems), but it's posts like this that make you indispensible, Sven. There is likely no one else on this planet who shares this sentiment. :)

soitgoes...

05-23-2011, 02:56 AM

Actually, just finished City of Sadness, never picked up Dust in the Wind. Will post thoughts on one or two Hou's asap.I can't wait!

Haven't seen BDR (on my radar, obviously) and I do like Deconstructing Harry more than most MCers (it's inexplicably underrated here it seems), but it's posts like this that make you indispensible, Sven. There is likely no one else on this planet who shares this sentiment. :)Deconstructing Harry is the Woody film that people either love or people hate. Not too much middle ground with that one.

Boner M

05-23-2011, 02:58 AM

Found Come on Children consistently interesting, albeit more for anthropological reasons than cinematic ones. It has some beautiful interstitial shots of the surroundings of the country house where the titular children dwell, but the human subjects are all too aimless for King to really shape a compelling narrative from them, like he did in Warrendale and A Married Couple. Still, it's a consistently beguiling 'hanging out' movie as balmakboor pointed out, the Dylan-wannabe kid with the cool hats rules, and I kinda fell in love with all the girls in the bunch.

Dying at Grace later this week.

Dead & Messed Up

05-23-2011, 05:04 AM

Okay, so now I've seen every single Star Trek movie in the course of two days. Brain overload. I'd seen three before (Khan, Generations, the preboot), so this is what I've learned.

1) The even-numbered films are generally more fun and generally more slight. Khan and Nemesis deal with villains out for revenge. Voyage Home plays its story dominantly as a culture clash. First Contact alternates between zombie filmmaking, body-snatchery, and time-travel adventuring, its emphasis chiefly on fast-paced thrills and laughs. Undiscovered Country softens its allegorical edges with an old-fashioned whodunit.

2) The odd-numbered films try to place religious concepts in sci-fi premises. The Motion Picture and The Final Frontier are about quests for God. The Search for Spock begins on an Eden and ends with an ornate ritual (sacrament?) that culminates in a resurrection. Generations reworks Heaven as an aberration in space and time. Even Insurrection deals with a culture of near-immortals living in a paradise of sorts. The cool thing is how these ideas (and their implementation in this genre) recall Clarke's famous line: any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. It allows the series to wrap transcendent ideas in explicable packages. Savvy, to say the least.

3) The general tenor of the series alternates between hard sci-fi and Buck Rogers fantasy. The opposite ends lie where we are right now, with The Motion Picture as a portentous tale that purposefully emphasizes the Earthly quest for knowledge as nearly divine...and the preboot focusing exclusively on quick-cut shoot-outs and the rapid assembly of its cast for an iconographic finish that functions less as a conclusion than a promise that better adventures will follow. The film that best unites these two approaches is Undiscovered Country, since it offers both a fun murder mystery and a political story about acceptance and forgiveness.

4) Khan, Search for Spock, and The Voyage Home have a nice continuity between them. On its own, I don't think Search for Spock would be worth much, but it's a vital link and helps restore the series to status quo after the disruptive Khan.

5) Insurrection deals with a villain who wants to displace six hundred near-immortals so he can have the secret for immortality. The stakes, however, feel very low, because the near-immortals only risk...displacement. The film would be twice as good if the villain wanted to abduct them all and conduct grotesque experiments to "discover" the secret of life (as well as punish them for having what he hasn't). This idea has precedence, as he and his followers look like science experiments themselves.

6) Tom Hardy makes Nemesis better than Insurrection. Otherwise, the weaknesses (bad character development, limp first acts, too much swashbuckling) are remarkably similar.

7) Final Frontier is not for lack of ambition. But it is for lack of focus. It splatters William Shatner's neuroses and passions all over the screen and leaves us to sort it into a meaningful statement. I think that statement is this: Shatner likes the woods, loves riding horses, and isn't afraid of a little thing like God.

8) Generations is slightly better than I remember, and that comes from Stewart's Picard and McDowell's Soran, who play their roles with more gravity and passion than the story really earns.

9) When I watched the preboot for the first time, I thought it was unfortunate that Uhura had nothing to do. My assumption was that she had more to do in the older films. My assumption was wrong. She does nothing. What a shame. There's a somewhat embarrassing boys' club mentality to all these films, with women on the Enterprise almost never impacting the action or story in interesting ways. That job's left to one-offs like Catherine Hicks in Voyage Home, Kim Cattrall in Undiscovered Country, and, best of all, Alice Krige as the Borg Queen in First Contact. Oh my.

10) Abrams's camerawork clashes so severely with the otherwise stately photography used in the previous films (excluding Frontier's continual camera tracking) that I had trouble watching at times. Lens flares, yes, but also the overabundance of shaky-cam.

11) I would rank them...

Voyage Home
Wrath of Khan
First Contact
Star Trek
The Undiscovered Country
The Motion Picture
Generations
The Search for Spock
Nemesis
Insurrection
The Final Frontier

Those last three are actively bad. The rest range from near-great to good. None of these movies earned my love, but more than enough of them earned my respect. This is an honorable series.

Philosophe_rouge

05-23-2011, 05:39 AM

Dangerous to feel addictive compulsions towards a film you can't access easily. Feel that way about Un 32 Aout sur Terre (Denis Villeneuve, 1998). I feel that way about his later film, Maelstrom, which I have on a bi-monthly rotation. Unfortunately for me, Un 32 Aout... is not available on dvd at the moment. I imagine the old copy floating around is not of particularly good quality either. Even downloads are few and far between. So so so so good though. I've seen all his features, now to move onto a couple of shorts. I definetely prefer the enigmatic and fantastic romanticism of his early work over his more recent serious-cinema, but as far as I'm concerned, he hasn't had a miss yet in his work.

MadMan

05-23-2011, 06:26 AM

I can understand people differentiating between best and favorite. Moulin Rouge is one of my favorite movies. Would I consider it one of the best movies ever, um no.At least one person gets it. Thanks.

If I Were to post the ManMan gif here, you have no right to be angry.I wouldn't be angry, I'd be confused.

I don't know what's so hard to understand about MadMan's position. Best = most accomplished / Favorite = worst. Pretty simple, really.Well if you want to be wrong about it, and completely misunderstand my explanation, then sure :P

It's hard to understand because it implies that you are making two separate judgments on movies, one subjective, and the other from an objective viewpoint. As Winston* says, the latter is impossible, for Wallace & Gromit or any other movie.Not really.

Ah, MadMan. He's probably not the best poster, but he is usually my favorite.http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/43/i-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

Dead & Messed Up

05-23-2011, 06:31 AM

Best: "I feel I can intellectually defend what I love."
Favorite: "I got nothing."

Winston*

05-23-2011, 06:59 AM

I understand how you can differentiate between favourite and best when it's Sunrise:A Song of Two Humans and Anaconda, or something. Whatever. I just want to know how you differentiate favourite and best within Wallace and Gromit movies.

Rowland

05-23-2011, 07:03 AM

Nostalgic value trumping merit?

transmogrifier

05-23-2011, 07:13 AM

It's basically this:

"Best" - I'm sure others like this as well
"Favourite" - I'm a little embarrassed to like this

Irish

05-23-2011, 07:25 AM

Best: "I feel I can intellectually defend what I love."
Favorite: "I got nothing."

"Best" - I'm sure others like this as well
"Favourite" - I'm a little embarrassed to like this

So then what would you say is the difference between "favorite" and "guilty pleasure"?

Also, trans, your rating on Seconds is a dagger to the heart.

MadMan

05-23-2011, 07:25 AM

To me, best=best and favorite=favorite :P

Irish

05-23-2011, 07:26 AM

To me, best=best and favorite=favorite :P

Hush, you. You've caused enough trouble already! :P

Derek

05-23-2011, 07:55 AM

So then what would you say is the difference between "favorite" and "guilty pleasure"?

More importantly, what's the difference between "best guilty pleasure" and "favorite guilty pleasure" and when's this topic going to die?

Winston*

05-23-2011, 08:03 AM

To me, best=best and favorite=favorite :P

Answer me, motherfucker!

transmogrifier

05-23-2011, 08:04 AM

Also, trans, your rating on Seconds is a dagger to the heart.

Well, learn not to dislike great films and messageboards will be easier to navigate for you.

transmogrifier

05-23-2011, 08:10 AM

So then what would you say is the difference between "favorite" and "guilty pleasure"?

Is there a difference? I don't know - I'm not the one equivocating like a muthaf**ker :)

MadMan

05-23-2011, 08:15 AM

Answer me, motherfucker!If I told you, I'd have to kill you. The site needs you, Winston. Why I donno, but its needs you.

Rowland

05-23-2011, 09:45 AM

soitgoes...

05-23-2011, 10:11 AM

I'm not one to change my favorite/best film. It's been the same for years now, but after my third re-watch, I can say without a doubt I have a new favorite film. Mind Game. Holy fuck I love this movie.

dmk

05-23-2011, 10:11 AM

Bertrand Tavernier's The Princess of Montpensier opened in my area this week, I think I'm gonna check it out. D'Angelo trashed it at Cannes last year, but it received a rave from Pinkerton, some very solid responses from other sources I keep tabs on, and Tavernier's Coup de Torchon is one of the films I'm still highly anticipating on my 1981 queue, so seeing two works by the same filmmaker made three decades apart should be interesting.
I bought a ticket for this today, but I arrived late, couldn't find a seat, and it looked like a digital projection, so I exchanged it for a later showing of Snowtown instead, which made me feel guilty as first, because I hate to pay for [mediocre] local product, but I no longer think it's mediocre post-research and I look forward to seeing it again.

Princess of Montpensier looked pretty good though, and the DVD comes out here in a week anyway. I'll make a day of it.

Also, I really like D'Angelo, but I do think he's a finicky temperamental bitch, with all due respect.

Qrazy

05-23-2011, 10:26 AM

Nope; but whateva, if separating best from favorite keeps you happy, then we can just agree to disagree.

You crazy weirdo. ;)

I know for a fact you have changed your rating on repeat viewings so yes, actually.

Dukefrukem

05-23-2011, 12:23 PM

Voyage Home
Wrath of Khan
First Contact
Star Trek
The Undiscovered Country
The Motion Picture
Generations
The Search for Spock
Nemesis
Insurrection
The Final Frontier

Those last three are actively bad. The rest range from near-great to good. None of these movies earned my love, but more than enough of them earned my respect. This is an honorable series.

Other than the religious tie in that you seem to find interesting, What other redeeming qualities do you see in The Motion Picture? The pacing is terrible and makes the film unwatchable.

megladon8

05-23-2011, 12:25 PM

The Motion Picture is awesome and creepy as hell.

Mysterious Dude

05-23-2011, 01:36 PM

The Motion Picture has some stunning visual effects. Credit is due to Douglas Trumbull (who also did the effects for 2001, Close Encounters and Blade Runner). The editing is a problem, though. I think the filmmakers wanted to show off the visual effects too much, so there's a long, long sequence when they're traveling through V'ger and nothing else is happening. I had a similar problem with 2001.

The Undiscovered Country is my favorite. It's the only one that seems to remember the politics of the original show. So many of the movies had some rogue villain acting separately from any larger force. The villain in Star Trek III, for example, is a Klingon but is not acting on behalf the Klingon empire; he's just acting for himself. While Undiscovered Country also has a rogue villain, it at least remembers that there is a whole Klingon Empire. One of my favorite episodes of Star Trek is "Errand of Mercy," the first episode to show Klingons. That episode shows that the Klingon Empire is a military dictatorship capable of conquering whole planets. The Undiscovered Country knows that the Klingon Empire is not just one person, but a whole empire of people.

Spinal

05-23-2011, 04:02 PM

Watching 11 straight Star Trek movies is how I will spend my first day in hell.

Irish

05-23-2011, 04:11 PM

Watching 11 straight Star Trek movies is how I will spend my first day in hell.

No, I've already spoke to the Devil. Your first day in hell is going to be spent watching Hot Tub Time Machine on a loop.

Dead & Messed Up

05-23-2011, 05:09 PM

Other than the religious tie in that you seem to find interesting, What other redeeming qualities do you see in The Motion Picture? The pacing is terrible and makes the film unwatchable.

Terrific effects work, a quiet attitude reminiscent of the early seventies sci-fi-ers like Silent Running and THX, a genuinely cool twist, and Wise's stately direction. Not the best flick, but a good flick.

Watching 11 straight Star Trek movies is how I will spend my first day in hell.

Overall, I liked the series, but watching them all in two days is not recommended to anyone. Ever. Also, you quickly learn that the two most dominant ideas in all the movies are (a) laser blasts knocking the bridge out of balance and blowing up a console...and (b) people asking for permission to speak freely, and that permission (phew!) being granted.

StanleyK

05-23-2011, 05:40 PM

I know for a fact you have changed your rating on repeat viewings so yes, actually.

My rating has changed because my perception of the film has changed, therefore I deem it to be better/worse than I deemed it to be before. I don't know how this negates my argument.

Irish

05-23-2011, 05:47 PM

StanleyK, are you still watching Tarantino films?

StanleyK

05-23-2011, 05:52 PM

StanleyK, are you still watching Tarantino films?

Yes. I wanted to rent Jackie Brown last week but they didn't have it. I'll probably get to it this week, and since I own both Kill Bill films there shouldn't be a problem there. There will be a problem when I get to Grindhouse; the proper version was never released in my country, so I'll have to find a way to replicate as best as I can the theatrical experience, fake trailers and all.

Irish

05-23-2011, 05:53 PM

Yes. I wanted to rent Jackie Brown last week but they didn't have it. I'll probably get to it this week, and since I own both Kill Bill films there shouldn't be a problem there. There will be a problem when I get to Grindhouse; the proper version was never released in my country, so I'll have to find a way to replicate as best as I can the theatrical experience, fake trailers and all.

Cool. Just wanted to check in. I'm looking forward to your write ups.

StanleyK

05-23-2011, 06:00 PM

Cool. Just wanted to check in. I'm looking forward to your write ups.

Thanks. It's good to know someone actually enjoys what I write.

elixir

05-23-2011, 06:45 PM

Harlan County U.S.A. is a very powerful film, detailing a coal mining strike that reveals the extreme lengths of corporate greed and immorality, possessing moments of raw anger and desperation that are quite affecting. Punctuated by folk songs, the film is narrated not by the filmmaker but by the voices of the town's citizens, with their persistence and resilience reflected in the material. Sure it has a quite subject point-of-view but it's done in a transparent manner, never manipulative in the way Moore is. Pretty sure this should be considered essential viewing among Americans, if not just everyone.

D_Davis

05-23-2011, 07:02 PM

So, not only is the whole 3D gimmick stupid, but it's actually making 2D movies look worse.

http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-22/ae/29571831_1_digital-projectors-movie-exhibition-business-screens

Spun Lepton

05-23-2011, 07:15 PM

So, not only is the whole 3D gimmick stupid, but it's actually making 2D movies look worse.

http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-22/ae/29571831_1_digital-projectors-movie-exhibition-business-screens

So, this is 3D's fault and not the fault of lazy theater management?

Rowland

05-23-2011, 07:20 PM

Watched another wonderful Keaton feature (Our Hospitality) as well as probably the weakest short of his I've seen (The Haunted House), or at least on par with his equally mediocre Fatty-Arbuckle-collaboration The Garage. Hmm, I think I'll watch a few more shorts today.

Ivan Drago

05-23-2011, 07:28 PM

The Motion Picture is awesome and creepy as hell.

The overture is beautiful, though. One of my favorite pieces of a musical score.

D_Davis

05-23-2011, 07:45 PM

So, this is 3D's fault and not the fault of lazy theater management?

Yep. It's all 3D's fault, because it is so stupid.

Qrazy

05-23-2011, 07:47 PM

My rating has changed because my perception of the film has changed, therefore I deem it to be better/worse than I deemed it to be before. I don't know how this negates my argument.

Your argument was 'If I like it is is good, if I don't it isn't'. I called this too simple precisely because perceptions change, which you acknowledge. I wasn't negating your argument that you don't personally feel you need to make the best/favorite distinction. And in this case I wasn't negating the argument that best/favorite is a meaningless distinction, although I feel I've done this elsewhere. I was only making the argument that like/good dislike/bad is too simple.

Mr. Pink

05-23-2011, 07:50 PM

Went to a screening of Casablanca last Tuesday. I'd only seen it once before, but I loved the hell out of it, so it was great to get a repeat viewing in a theater.

But I was getting really annoyed at the characters. Unless I'm just completely wrong, something about it still bugs the hell out of me. . .

Rick has the transit papers, but he's still too upset at Ilsa to give it to her. Now, I was unclear about one of the plot points, where Rick eventually decides to take Ilsa from Casablanca and leave her husband to rot in jail. I don't understand why Rick would do this. He's jaded from having Ilsa left him the first time, she comes back with a respectable excuse, so he says, "Hey, lets do the exact same thing to your current husband; we leave, he rots in jail." AND SHE GOES ALONG WITH IT. It seems like the movie ends on such a good note only because Rick was about to do something really shitty and then changes his mind.

Either way, it's still an awesome movie. I just thought that was kind of funny.

Also saw Python's The Holy Grail at the same theater a week prior. Consistently funny, without a bad scene to be found.

Sven

05-23-2011, 08:01 PM

Hey guys. I'm sick. Couch-ridden. I want to watch a good action fantasy, but cannot muster the will to crystallize any options. What should I watch?

Mara

05-23-2011, 08:01 PM

Hey guys. I'm sick. Couch-ridden. I want to watch a good action fantasy, but cannot muster the will to crystallize any options. What should I watch?

Good like a good movie, or "good" like Krull or Beastmaster is "good"?

Sven

05-23-2011, 08:03 PM

Good like a good movie, or "good" like Krull or Beastmaster is "good"?

I'm well aware of the rubric by which goodness is gauged in action fantasies, but I was hoping for probably a step above Krull and Beastmaster. But you're on the right track, genre-wise.

soitgoes...

05-23-2011, 08:08 PM

Maybe too close to science fiction, but Flash Gordon. You're welcome.

Sven

05-23-2011, 08:11 PM

Maybe too close to science fiction, but Flash Gordon. You're welcome.

A fantastic suggestion, though I was hoping for something I hadn't seen before.

Irish

05-23-2011, 08:11 PM

Rick has the transit papers, but he's still too upset at Ilsa to give it to her. Now, I was unclear about one of the plot points, where Rick eventually decides to take Ilsa from Casablanca and leave her husband to rot in jail. I don't understand why Rick would do this. He's jaded from having Ilsa left him the first time, she comes back with a respectable excuse, so he says, "Hey, lets do the exact same thing to your current husband; we leave, he rots in jail." AND SHE GOES ALONG WITH IT. It seems like the movie ends on such a good note only because Rick was about to do something really shitty and then changes his mind.

On Casablanca ...

The turning point in that movie is when Laslo says to Rick, "Welcome back to the fight." It's here that Rick rediscovers his idealism -- he must help Laszlo to escape, and for Laszlo to be effective, Ilsa must go with him. The problem is that Rick's still in love with Ilsa and she with him.

All the machinations Rick goes through at the end are all a con; he knows Ilsa will not leave without him but he needs to get her on that plane. So he effectively bullshits her into believing they're going to screw over Laszlo.

The ending of the movie works on several levels: It's uplifting because Rick reclaims his lost love ("We'll always have Paris") and rediscovers his idealism (Laszlo telling him, "Welcome back to the fight"). It's bittersweet because he walks away from the love of his life.

Mara

05-23-2011, 08:12 PM

I'm well aware of the rubric by which goodness is gauged in action fantasies, but I was hoping for probably a step above Krull and Beastmaster. But you're on the right track, genre-wise.

So, no Cave Dwellers. I hear ya.

Flash Gordon is "good." Possibly quite "good."

I'm not nuts about Excalibur, but there are those on the boards who praise it mightily. May be up your alley.

Irish

05-23-2011, 08:16 PM

Nooo .. in a weakened condition Excalibur might kill him.

Have you seen the original Conan? If not, it's a perfect fit. Decent story, great production values, and just a bit cheesy.

Sven

05-23-2011, 08:16 PM

I'm not nuts about Excalibur, but there are those on the boards who praise it mightily. May be up your alley.

You know me well enough to think that I'd like it (http://match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=154672&postcount=26553), at least.

Mara

05-23-2011, 08:17 PM

You know me well enough to think that I'd like it (http://match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=154672&postcount=26553), at least.

Oh. You're one of them.

;)

soitgoes...

05-23-2011, 08:21 PM

A fantastic suggestion, though I was hoping for something I hadn't seen before.Hausu? Again, maybe outside of the genre you're looking for, but it's got a certain level of wackiness you usually love.

Mr. Pink

05-23-2011, 08:22 PM

On Casablanca ...

The turning point in that movie is when Laslo says to Rick, "Welcome back to the fight." It's here that Rick rediscovers his idealism -- he must help Laszlo to escape, and for Laszlo to be effective, Ilsa must go with him. The problem is that Rick's still in love with Ilsa and she with him.

All the machinations Rick goes through at the end are all a con; he knows Ilsa will not leave without him but he needs to get her on that plane. So he effectively bullshits her into believing they're going to screw over Laszlo.

The ending of the movie works on several levels: It's uplifting because Rick reclaims his lost love ("We'll always have Paris") and rediscovers his idealism (Laszlo telling him, "Welcome back to the fight"). It's bittersweet because he walks away from the love of his life.

Ah, okay. I thought he was serious about screwing over Lazlo, but realized what was more important at the end. Regarding Rick knowing Isla wont leave without him, it seemed like she was just apologetic to Rick for leaving (still in love, sure) but resigned to her fate as Lazlo's husband. But I'm guessing what you're referring to comes later when they're making plans to leave.

Sven

05-23-2011, 08:23 PM

Hausu has been on my list for a while. I'll see into the possibility of watching that. Conan is a good suggestion. Haven't seen it since I was, oh, I dunno... very small. My dad was an Arnold fanatic.

Raiders

05-23-2011, 08:24 PM

Darby O'Gill and the Little People!

Russ

05-23-2011, 08:25 PM

A fantastic suggestion, though I was hoping for something I hadn't seen before.
Have you seen Dragonslayer (1981)?

Qrazy

05-23-2011, 08:27 PM

I'm well aware of the rubric by which goodness is gauged in action fantasies, but I was hoping for probably a step above Krull and Beastmaster. But you're on the right track, genre-wise.

Did you ever end up watching either of those animes I rec'd you quite a long time ago? Brave Story and Origin: Spirits of the Past. They're solid action/adventure/fantastical journeys.

soitgoes...

05-23-2011, 08:29 PM

Did you ever end up watching either of those animes I rec'd you quite a long time ago? Brave Story and Origin: Spirits of the Past. They're solid action/adventure/fantastical journeys.
Mind Game

Irish

05-23-2011, 08:32 PM

Have you seen Dragonslayer (1981)?

Oooh this is a good pick too, one I always forget about. A little more serious, iirc, in its approach than the others mentioned.

Rowland

05-23-2011, 08:32 PM

Have you seen Dragonslayer (1981)?I'll second this recommendation.

Qrazy

05-23-2011, 08:35 PM

Mind Game

He's already seen Mindgame.

soitgoes...

05-23-2011, 08:38 PM

He's already seen Mindgame.Perfect. I can't keep track of these things. That's why I keep you around.

Watashi

05-23-2011, 08:52 PM

Ladyhawke

Irish

05-23-2011, 08:54 PM

Ladyhawke

Damn, that's another good pick.

I can't believe I'm forgetting all these. Maybe Mara's mention of Beastmaster threw me.

Irish

05-23-2011, 08:59 PM

http://i.imgur.com/Pfgan.jpg

LA Times has an excerpt from this. Some fun behind-the-scenes stuff on the Indy movies:

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2011/05/23/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-30-years-later-a-stuntmans-on-the-set-diary/

Rowland

05-23-2011, 09:05 PM

The Goat, that's more like it. It's nothing more than a straightforward chase flick that doesn't even bother to resolve its lone conflict, but as a compact showcase for Keaton's mad comedic skillz, it's damn near perfect.

Spinal

05-23-2011, 09:06 PM

I watched Dragonslayer not too long ago. It didn't hold up very well.

Rowland

05-23-2011, 09:09 PM

I watched Dragonslayer not too long ago. It didn't hold up very well.I dunno, I just watched it recently and thought it held up remarkably well, barring some of the stop-motion flying effects with the dragon and an overly brisk narrative that could have actually used an additional reel or two, which isn't something I say of many films.

Yxklyx

05-23-2011, 09:33 PM

Derek

05-23-2011, 09:52 PM

A Summer at Grandpa's (Hou, 1986)

A simple story of a young boy and his sister visiting their grandparents in Taiwan from the mainland, A Summer at Granda's sheds nearly all traces of sentiment and nostalgia, allowing for the dark undercurrent of Taiwan's instability and the growing severity of their mother's sickness to be felt in every scene. The film is more of a pre-coming-of-age story with the children enjoying their idyllic dalliances, racing turtles and playing in the river, all while witnessing the petty crimes, mental sickness and amoral behavior, the significance of which that they cannot comprehend, yet which inevitably alters their perception. Hou's ability to seamlessly combine the innocence of childhood with the moral complexities of adulthood and the burgeoning problems of a struggling Taiwan make what could otherwise be a typical story of idyllic youth, a rich, rewarding experience.

City of Sadness (Hou, 1989)

Hou's most challenging film to date, yet despite the emotional distance and elliptical structure that makes it difficult to track characters and historical events, Hou's trademark blending of the personal and political gives the film a depth and complexity that most historical dramas lack. Its coldness and glacial pacing create a sense inevitability, helplessness and the perpetual sadness of a nation unable to forge its own national identity, as the central family struggles to maintain their standing in the local community. The kaleidoscopic nature of the film, often mirrored with compositions containing multiple conversations or occurences, gives us the sense of history flowing through these characters lives rather than being presented as punctuation marks. The approach is admirable, but as one relatively unfamiliar with this period of Taiwanese history (from 1945, when Japan lost control to 1949, when they broke from mainland China), a second viewing is almost a necessity to make all of the connections Hou places in front of us.

soitgoes...

05-23-2011, 10:05 PM

Well I'm glad you liked both of them, though I wish you would like them a bit more (still a shame that A Time to Live and a Time to Die didn't work for you). Looking over your Hou ratings back in the consensus thread it seems you aren't his biggest fan. I suppose outside of the four 80's films of his I've seen, the same could be said of me. You should check out Dust in the Wind, if only for the sake of finishing the "trilogy." It's my least favorite of the three, but still a great film nonetheless. It deals more with the rural/urban dichotomy in Taiwan. I grabbed The Boys from Fengkuei which I also hear is pretty good.

D_Davis

05-24-2011, 12:59 PM

Hey guys. I'm sick. Couch-ridden. I want to watch a good action fantasy, but cannot muster the will to crystallize any options. What should I watch?

Have a yokai-fest:

Miike's Great Yokai War
Yokai Monsters: Spook Warfare
Sakuya: Slayer of Demons
Kibakichi

Four films that, while not perfect, are full of creative energy and are very cool.

Sven

05-24-2011, 06:15 PM

Oh, forgot: Sweet and Lowdown and Stardust Memories. Those four have mondo staying power.

megladon8

05-24-2011, 06:16 PM

Oh, forgot: Sweet and Lowdown and Stardust Memories. Those four have mondo staying power.

Yeah, I really dig Sweet and Lowdown.

Pop Trash

05-24-2011, 07:42 PM

Husbands and Wives seems to be oft cited as the last great Woody Allen, but I watched it for the first time recently and it didn't blow me away. Good, but not great. I feel like I need to have gone through a marriage and possibly a divorce to really 'get' it though. As a point of comparison, I actually like Manhattan Murder Mystery, Deconstructing Harry, Sweet and Lowdown, and Match-Point more than H&W.

Derek

05-24-2011, 08:51 PM

Oh, forgot: Sweet and Lowdown and Stardust Memories. Those four have mondo staying power.

Sweet and Lowdown is great, but I'd rather watch a Fellini film over Stardust Memories.

transmogrifier

05-25-2011, 01:58 AM

Stardust Memories is a gorgeous, gorgeous film. I like it a lot.

Kurosawa Fan

05-25-2011, 05:12 AM

Stardust Memories is my favorite Woody film, along with Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Spinal

05-25-2011, 05:15 AM

Sad, lonely vote for Zelig.

Kurosawa Fan

05-25-2011, 05:16 AM

Sad, lonely vote for Zelig.

This would be very close, and actually made my top 100 way back when we had our thread. Though at the time I hadn't seen Stardust Memories.

Boner M

05-25-2011, 05:19 AM

Curse of the Jade Scorpion is my dad's favorite. He didn't like Manhattan.

Ivan Drago

05-25-2011, 05:21 AM

Manhattan for me, with...:gulp:...Match Point at a close second. But I really want to see more from Allen.

Boner M

05-25-2011, 05:21 AM

I like Stardust Memories more than 8½.

Rowland

05-25-2011, 05:32 AM

I loved Manhattan at the time of my first and only viewing some 8-9 years ago, but I can't recall much about it beyond the most iconic moments. My unoriginal favorites, Crimes and Misdemeanors and Annie Hall, have stuck more forcefully with me over the years, though I have to confess that my exposure to classic Allen is woefully limited.

Winston*

05-25-2011, 05:42 AM

Kind of want to say The Purple Rose of Cairo.

soitgoes...

05-25-2011, 05:44 AM

Annie Hall. But really though, Allen only had a few missteps over the next twenty plus years.

Boner M

05-25-2011, 05:45 AM

Kind of want to say The Purple Rose of Cairo.
That's one of the 5 or so titles I could say depending on mood. Don't have a clear favorite.

Irish

05-25-2011, 05:59 AM

Annie Hall, by far. Inventive, creative, and one of the few where Allen really describes the confusion around modern relationships well.

Manhattan bugs me. Great photographs, but if you see it enough to get past that, the movie is almost all walk and talk bullshit. It's dramatically inert outside of Hemingway's character (the only one who is genuine and human), and she's not in it enough. Will say the final dialogue is top-tier Allen, though.

Stardust Memories is lazy. It's a rehashing of ground Allen has already well covered under a patina of Fellini. Really, if you're going to be "influenced" by someone that much, try not to make it so obvious.

But generally, anything he made under Orion's banner is worth watching. He had just enough drive and money to be interesting. After that, not so much.

transmogrifier

05-25-2011, 06:36 AM

Kind of want to say The Purple Rose of Cairo.

My favourites:

1. Husbands and Wives
2. THe Purple Rose of Cairo
3. Annie Hall
4. Hannah and Her Sisters
5. Everyone Says I Love You

transmogrifier

05-25-2011, 06:40 AM

Stardust Memories is lazy. It's a rehashing of ground Allen has already well covered under a patina of Fellini. Really, if you're going to be "influenced" by someone that much, try not to make it so obvious.

I like how being wrong doesn't bother you - you just plow on through the paragraph regardless.

In 1980, he was rehashing all the old ground covered by Bananas, Love and Death, Sleeper, Annie Hall, Interiors, and Manhattan? Is that your story?

Irish

05-25-2011, 06:54 AM

In 1980, he was rehashing all the old ground covered by Bananas, Love and Death, Sleeper, Annie Hall, Interiors, and Manhattan? Is that your story?

I like how you can be so literal and still post such a ridiculous question with a straight face. I know you're not stupid, trans, so why do you insist on acting like it?

Allen's main concern with Annie Hall, Manhattan, and Stardust Memories is romantic relationships. But what did he say about them in Stardust that wasn't already well covered by the other two? Nothing.

The rest of the movie either heavily borrows from Fellini or from his own material. The whole project comes off sterile and uninspired.

transmogrifier

05-25-2011, 07:22 AM

I like how you can be so literal and still post such a ridiculous question with a straight face. I know you're not stupid, trans, so why do you insist on acting like it?

Allen's main concern with Annie Hall, Manhattan, and Stardust Memories is romantic relationships. But what did he say about them in Stardust that wasn't already well covered by the other two? Nothing.

The rest of the movie either heavily borrows from Fellini or from his own material. The whole project comes off sterile and uninspired.

So, two movies about failed relationships = well-covered? And the fact that Stardust Memories is a mediation on artistic direction and motives? And the fact that it is gorgeously photographed and directed? Oh no, wait, another director once photographed another movie beautifully and worked with misshapen extras, and so therefore every other movie that dares to be similar is immediately worthless.

Try watching the movie for itself, rather than using it as an intellectual exercise in "Oh, I know who did THIS first" smugness.

Qrazy

05-25-2011, 07:56 AM

I like Stardust Memories more than 8½.

Unacceptable.

Irish

05-25-2011, 08:36 AM

So, two movies about failed relationships = well-covered?

When the two movies in question are Annie Hall and Manhattan, yes. Compounding the problem is that these were all made within 3 years of one another, practically back to back.

And the fact that Stardust Memories is a mediation on artistic direction and motives? And the fact that it is gorgeously photographed and directed? Oh no, wait, another director once photographed another movie beautifully and worked with misshapen extras, and so therefore every other movie that dares to be similar is immediately worthless.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth and reading things into my statements that aren't there.

It's not so much that Allen borrows the trappings of Fellini. It's that he doesn't do anything new or interesting with them. He offers no fresh insights with Stardust and doesn't offer any kind of differing viewpoint.

All of the dialogue (much of which is really monologue) is on-the-nose. He spouts off his themes directly, and gives the movie a set up that allows him to be a talking head with a microphone and a podium and tell the audience exactly what his movie is about. There's absolutely no subtlety at all. In that kind of environment, there's no room for characters or drama, either (I can't think of another Allen movie where the female characters are so thinly drawn).

Any time he gets even a shade close to emotional truth or real intimacy or an interesting idea, he immediately cuts to broad, slapsticky humor that's straight out of stuff like Sleepers and Young Frankenstein. So even the comedy here is shoe horned in.

I find it shallow and uninspired, pure hack work. A mish mosh of borrowed ideas, and considering that it's coming on the heals of Annie and Manhattan, a weak effort.

Does it look great? Sure. Are some of the jokes funny? Yes. But that's not enough.

transmogrifier

05-25-2011, 08:37 AM

When the two movies in question are Annie Hall and Manhattan, yes. Compounding the problem is that these were all made within 3 years of one another, practically back to back.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth and reading things into my statements that aren't there.

It's not so much that Allen borrows the trappings of Fellini. It's that he doesn't do anything new or interesting with them. He offers no fresh insights with Stardust and doesn't offer any kind of differing viewpoint.

All of the dialogue (much of which is really monologue) is on-the-nose. He spouts off his themes directly, and gives the movie a set up that allows him to be a talking head with a microphone and a podium and tell the audience exactly what his movie is about. There's absolutely no subtlety at all. In that kind of environment, there's no room for characters or drama, either (I can't think of another Allen movie where the female characters are so thinly drawn).

Any time he gets even a shade close to emotional truth or real intimacy or an interesting idea, he immediately cuts to broad, slapsticky humor that's straight out of stuff like Sleepers and Young Frankenstein. So even the comedy here is shoe horned in.

I find it shallow and uninspired, pure hack work. A mish mosh of borrowed ideas, and considering that it's coming on the heals of Annie and Manhattan, a weak effort.

Does it look great? Sure. Are some of the jokes funny? Yes. But that's not enough.

So many words. So much wrong. But my favourite part is labelling a B&W homage to Fellini as hack-work.

Irish

05-25-2011, 08:41 AM

So many words. So much wrong. But my favourite part is labelling a B&W homage to Fellini as hack-work.

I'm not seeing a counter argument here. Did you actually have something to say or are you just trying to stroke your own ego?

transmogrifier

05-25-2011, 08:43 AM

I'm not seeing a counter argument here. Did you actually have something to say or are you just trying to stroke your own ego?

The latter, probably. Though the extent of my ego-stroking has little or no bearing on the extent of your wrongness.

Irish

05-25-2011, 08:49 AM

The latter, probably. Though the extent of my ego-stroking has little or no bearing on the extent of your wrongness.

You're right. Part of my post was wrong -- the bit where I said you were intelligent is starting to seem misguided now.

transmogrifier

05-25-2011, 09:02 AM

You're right. Part of my post was wrong -- the bit where I said you were intelligent is starting to seem misguided now.

To tell the truth, I haven't seen it for a while, so I have no specifics really to offer. All I wanted to point out is that I had almost the exact opposite reaction to you. I found it a stylish evaluation of the artistic impulse and the relationship between art and the audience. Plus the jump cut scene with Rampling is awesome.

Irish

05-25-2011, 09:21 AM

To tell the truth, I haven't seen it for a while, so I have no specifics really to offer. All I wanted to point out is that I had almost the exact opposite reaction to you. I found it a stylish evaluation of the artistic impulse and the relationship between art and the audience. Plus the jump cut scene with Rampling is awesome.

I've been rewatching bits and pieces of it as we've gone back and forth. I love how he keeps the frame on a single character (usually female) and doesn't cut back and forth during dialogue. (There's a great sequence where he and Isabelle are in their bedroom at night, and he's trying to convince her to move in with him and she starts doing weird facial exercises in the middle of the conversation. Allen keeps the camera on her the entire time).

I couldn't agree more that the jumpcut Rampling is fantastic. It's stark, raw, real.

But right there is part of my beef with the movie -- from Rampling he cuts abruptly to the scene where Allen/Sandy encounters aliens in the woods. It's funny as hell ("By earth standards, I have an IQ of 1600 and even I couldn't understand what you expected from that relationship with Dorrie"). The contrast, the odd juxtaposition of the two together, feels forced and almost bizarre, as if Allen wants to have his dramatic-comedy cake and eat it too.

But yeah, it's a wonderfully looking movie. I just can't help but cringe anytime anybody in it opens their mouth.

TL;DR: Absolutely agree that the movie is well shot and well directed, I just wish it were more substantive substantial.