28 Film Discussion Threads Later [Archive] - Page 6

Qrazy

11-23-2007, 08:54 PM

Pan's Labyrinth is a kick ass fairy tale, but as a film about the Spanish civil war and Franco's dictatorship, I was hoping for something more grownup... like The Spirit of the Beehive. I liked Bubble both times I watched it, though so many months later, I can't say I remember it especially well--pretty much my reaction to most of Soderbergh's art movies (one wants to celebrate his ecclecticism, but his work is beginning to seem more and more dilletantish).

Speaking of, I don't get Clint Eastwood. Period. Mystic River was solid in a very conventional way, though I pretty much forgot it the instant I left the theater, and his last three movies have gotten worse and worse.

Completely agree with all of this.

I'm a little less hard on Children of Men, Babel and The Departed although for different reasons they all fall short of their respective marks... or rather I wish that their marks had been aimed farther afield.

Melville

11-23-2007, 09:18 PM

For some reason my taste was at odds with the critical consensus last year.

1. Pan's Labyrinth - 7
2. Bubble - 7.5
3. Children of Men - 7.5
4. The Departed - 6
5. The Lives of Others - 6.5
6. United 93 - 7.5
7. Flags of Our Fathers / Letters From Iwo Jima - N/A / 5.5
8. Perfume: The Story of a Murderer - N/A
9. Babel - 6
10. Man Push Cart - N/A

However, I agree with the consensus that Werckmeister Harmonies is pretty great. Tarr does some really interesting things with his camera. My favorite shots: a silhouette of a figure standing in front of a passing truck, the truck's paneled side being the only thing indicating motion; a figure walking toward the horizon, eventually vanishing, leaving a still image with music still indicating the passage of time; and two tiny figures walking along diverging paths, moving so slowly that the image almost appears still. All three shots beautifully isolate space and time while pointing out their inextricable links in ways that only a film can. I'll definitely be pondering those shots for a while. I also loved how the camera takes on the perspective of an observer who is actually present in the opening scene, as a figure approaches a character standing beside it, or as it circles around the circling people enacting the solar eclipse. Great stuff.

Boner M

11-23-2007, 09:22 PM

Did you read my thoughts a few pages back?
I did, and they're good thoughts. I can't agree that it's needlessly bombastic or overblown; the whole film and it's oft-erratic stylistic choices felt perfectly in-sync with how McCandless experienced his sensually overwhelming journey. Even when it resembled the Discovery channel or a Gatorade commercial, I wondered if Penn was making a statement on the role of the media in shaping how we experience the beauty and purity of nature. I guess the fact that he doesn't ever explicitly acknowledge this role means that some of the visual cliches remain just cliches rather than explorations of them, but I liked that it provides space for projection. I think it's one of those films that is kept on such an intensely subjective realm that so many of it's flaws go hand-in-hand with it's strengths, but I thought the lack of any kind of ironic distance toward McCandless made it quite enthralling and moving even if I don't necessarily agree with the romanticized view of his odyssey.

Just curious, in what ways the book differ in tone? I don't usually read a book if I've already seen the film it's based on, but I might make an exception in this case.

Duncan

11-23-2007, 09:23 PM

1. Pan's Labyrinth - 5.5
2. Bubble - n/a
3. Children of Men - 8.5
4. The Departed - 7.5
5. The Lives of Others - 6.5
6. United 93 - 9.0
7. Flags of Our Fathers / Letters From Iwo Jima - n/a
8. Perfume: The Story of a Murderer - n/a
9. Babel - 5.0
10. Man Push Cart - n/a

Boner M

11-23-2007, 09:26 PM

1. Pan's Labyrinth - 6.5
2. Bubble - N/A
3. Children of Men - 9
4. The Departed - 8
5. The Lives of Others - 7.5
6. United 93 - 7.5
7. Flags of Our Fathers / Letters From Iwo Jima - N/A / 7.5
8. Perfume: The Story of a Murderer - 7.5
9. Babel - 4.5
10. Man Push Cart - N/A

Meh.

NickGlass

11-23-2007, 09:27 PM

1. Pan's Labyrinth: 5.0
2. Bubble: 6.5
3. Children of Men: 7.5
4. The Departed: 6.5
5. The Lives of Others: 7.0
6. United 93: 5.5
7. Flags of Our Fathers / Letters From Iwo Jima: 4.0 (the latter)
8. Perfume: The Story of a Murderer: Didn't see. Not sure if I ever will.
9. Babel: 5.0
10. Man Push Cart: I'd like to see.

Derek

11-23-2007, 09:35 PM

1. Pan's Labyrinth - 8.0
2. Bubble - 4.0
3. Children of Men - 8.5
4. The Departed - 7.5
5. The Lives of Others - 7.5
6. United 93 - 5.0
7. Flags of Our Fathers / Letters From Iwo Jima - 5.5/ 7.5
8. Perfume: The Story of a Murderer - N/A
9. Babel - 6.0
10. Man Push Cart - N/A

Derek

11-23-2007, 09:58 PM

Surviving Desire (Hartley, 1991) - 8

Any thoughts on this one? It's my favorite of Hartley's after Trust. I found it interesting that when an interviewer commented that it was their favorite of his films, he quickly said it was his least favorite. I actually think the extremely brief running time (I'm pretty sure its less than a full hour) heightens the comedic effect of his elliptical editing style, particularly in the hysterical progression of Henry's character from feeling alone to oppressed by the pressure of his newfound relationship. It's also fitting that this film has his most glaring homage to Godard w/the dance scene considering the constant quoting from literary sources.

Derek

11-23-2007, 10:05 PM

So, I finally saw one of the Extended LOTR's and I guess it'd been too long since I last saw it to notice too many of the differences. As a stand alone film, I still don't think Fellowship is as impressive as Two Towers as it's really just one set piece after another. It's still very entertaining and fitting to watch after Thanksgiving dinner if only to see something more bloated and overstuffed than everyone's stomachs. Though honestly, I never really got all that antsy despite the running time.

eternity

11-23-2007, 10:08 PM

I think all these action spoofs like Hot Fuzz or Shoot 'Em Up are worthless when we already have James Cameron's True Lies existing. The ultimate tounge-in-cheek action film, only rivaled by another Ahnuld movie, Last Action Hero. It's perfect.

eternity

11-23-2007, 10:09 PM

1. Pan's Labyrinth - 9.0
2. Bubble - N/A
3. Children of Men - 8.5
4. The Departed - 8.5
5. The Lives of Others - N/A
6. United 93 - 8.0
7. Flags of Our Fathers / Letters From Iwo Jima - 5.0/6.0
8. Perfume: The Story of a Murderer - 4.0
9. Babel - 2.0
10. Man Push Cart - N/A

Melville

11-23-2007, 10:21 PM

Even when it resembled the Discovery channel or a Gatorade commercial
Heh. I think the most overblown part was definitely the sister's narration, which was just trite.

Just curious, in what ways the book differ in tone?
I haven't read the book, so I'm not sure. I've heard that it makes its critiques of McCandless' philosophy, and the literary tradition that he's inspired by, a lot more explicit.

I don't usually read a book if I've already seen the film it's based on, but I might make an exception in this case.
Do you mean that you don't read a book if you've already seen a film based upon it? That's a pretty odd stance, since so many great books are adapted into mediocre movies.

megladon8

11-23-2007, 10:22 PM

I've only seen 3 on Ebert's list.

Boner M

11-23-2007, 11:18 PM

Do you mean that you don't read a book if you've already seen a film based upon it? That's a pretty odd stance, since so many great books are adapted into mediocre movies.
I dunno, I can never seem to get the film out of my head when I go back and read the novel, and it ends up affecting my opinion for the worse. Most recently this happened with A Scanner Darkly.

Any thoughts on this one?
I really love the way Hartley maintains a balance between satirising the people who live their lives too cerebrally, while never becoming anti-intellectual in any way. The way the characters state the subtext seems like an annoying gimmick at first, but the absurdity of the proceedings eventually grow to the point that their distance from any kind of emotion gives the film a subtext of its own. It kinda reminded me of A Zed and Two Noughts (or most Godard films, really), in the sense that the level of citation and various allusion becomes so dense and fast-paced that instead of inviting academic readings, it's just becomes absurdly funny - implying a need to simply feel rather than understand.

Also, The Great Outdoors rock. I wish I could find some of their stuff anywhere.

Spinal

11-23-2007, 11:30 PM

The whimsy of Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium is as forced as the rhyme in the film's title. Beyond Jason Bateman's performance, there is little worth while.

Watashi

11-23-2007, 11:33 PM

The whimsy of Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium is as forced as the rhyme in the film's title. Beyond Jason Bateman's performance, there is little worth while.

Boo-urns.

This and Galaxy Quest, Spinal?

What happened to your fun side? :sad:

Rowland

11-23-2007, 11:35 PM

The whimsy of Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium is as forced as the rhyme in the film's title. Beyond Jason Bateman's performance, there is little worth while.This is delicious irony considering the main theme of the film.

Watashi

11-23-2007, 11:35 PM

This is delicious irony considering the main theme of the film.

Er, try taking Sarcasm 101 again.

Boner M

11-23-2007, 11:37 PM

Er, try again.
The entire film is a METAPHOR for Zac Helm's underappreciated awesomeness.

Spinal

11-23-2007, 11:37 PM

Boo-urns.

This and Galaxy Quest, Spinal?

What happened to your fun side? :sad:

This film was anything but fun. Mostly, it was dreadfully dull and lazy. I'm trying to think of a single moment of true cinematic magic and I'm coming up empty.

Spinal

11-23-2007, 11:38 PM

This is delicious irony considering the main theme of the film.

Yes, the accountant probably should not be the most charismatic character in the film.

Watashi

11-23-2007, 11:39 PM

The entire film is a METAPHOR for Zac Helm's underappreciated awesomeness.

Oh boy. I'm going to pushed around because I like a so-called kid's film, aren't I?

And change your avatar, for god's sake.

Mal

11-23-2007, 11:41 PM

1. Pan's Labyrinth - 3
2. Bubble - N/A
3. Children of Men - 8
4. The Departed - 5
5. The Lives of Others - N/A
6. United 93 - 9
7. Flags of Our Fathers / Letters From Iwo Jima - N/A
8. Perfume: The Story of a Murderer - 10
9. Babel - 2
10. Man Push Cart - N/A

Watashi

11-23-2007, 11:43 PM

This film was anything but fun. Mostly, it was dreadfully dull and lazy. I'm trying to think of a single moment of true cinematic magic and I'm coming up empty.

The entire film was pure escapism of the highest form. With only two films under his belt, I'm already declaring Zach Helm one of the purest, unpretentious writers working today. Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium is one of the few children's film that doesn't insult the audience and actually has highly intelligent messages about the acceptance of death and living your life as freely as possible. Sure, these are not ground-breaking themes, but Helm approaches it honestly and crafts a story that every child can relate to.

Mal

11-23-2007, 11:43 PM

Enchanted
Hmm. It made me feel old.

Spinal

11-23-2007, 11:46 PM

I think the film fails even as sheer escapist entertainment. It just doesn't offer that many thrills or wonders.

koji

11-24-2007, 12:14 AM

1. Pan's Labyrinth 8.5
2. Bubble 6.5
3. Children of Men 8
4. The Departed 8.5
5. The Lives of Others 9.5
6. United 93 - N/A
7. Flags of Our Fathers / Letters From Iwo Jima 6.0/9.5
8. Perfume: The Story of a Murderer 8
9. Babel 8
10. Man Push Cart 7.5

Boner M

11-24-2007, 12:32 AM

Oh boy. I'm going to pushed around because I like a so-called kid's film, aren't I?

And change your avatar, for god's sake.
no & lighten up / maybe

Ezee E

11-24-2007, 12:51 AM

If American cineplexes want to stay in business and keep people coming to the theater in this struggling environment, they need to burn all prints of Three Doors Down's "Citizen Soldier" music video/National Guard ad/abomination right now.
Love this post.

Ezee E

11-24-2007, 12:52 AM

Weekend:
Lights in the Dusk (Aki Kaurismaki)
Strike (Sergei Eisenstein)
Tucker: The Man and His Dream (Francis Ford Coppola)

Revisiting:
Barfly (Barbet Schroeder)
The Gay Divorcee (Mark Sandrich)
Life, and Nothing More... (Abbas Kiarostami)
Me and You and Everyone We Know (Miranda July)
The Neon Bible (Terrence Davies)

About to begin reading:
Berlin Alexanderplatz: The Story of Franz Biberkopf (Alfred Doblin)
what poster were you originally?

Rowland

11-24-2007, 01:10 AM

Ezee E

11-24-2007, 01:13 AM

Hmm, I just returned home from Into the Wild a few hours ago, and I seem to be in the minority, because I kinda loved it. It's messy, shambling, heartfelt, and constantly at odds with itself in fascinating, revealing ways that cumulate to a devastatingly powerful finale. I'll have to look up some of the thoughts for it around here.
Mostly negative around here. Some for reasons that make sense, other's that don't.

I really liked it as well. I really liked the appreciation of life, but also the effect it has on others, not only from McCandless, but every supporting character. Vince Vaughn is overlooked here in my opinion, but Hal Holbrook is definitely the best.

Rowland

11-24-2007, 01:46 AM

Mostly negative around here. Some for reasons that make sense, other's that don't.The consensus seems to be that the movie isn't critical enough of its lead, which I think is grossly oversimplifying. Penn celebrates the kid's spirit while constantly exposing him for his idealized naivety and outright narcissism, the latter an undercurrent that builds in its intensity as the movie progresses, until the end, which is as much a condemnation as it is a tragedy. These conflicting dual perspectives give the movie an inscrutably slippery edge that pays off in dividends in the closing reels. Kudos also to Penn's directorial approach to the material, which is simply ferocious and constantly engaging, as well as to the delightful ensemble.

Melville

11-24-2007, 01:52 AM

The consensus seems to be that the movie isn't critical enough of its lead, which I think is grossly oversimplifying.
Yeah, I don't really understand that criticism. The film definitely seemed to be at least somewhat critical of its lead.

Duncan

11-24-2007, 02:07 AM

The consensus seems to be that the movie isn't critical enough of its lead, which I think is grossly oversimplifying. Penn celebrates the kid's spirit while constantly exposing him for his idealized naivety and outright narcissism, the latter an undercurrent that builds in its intensity as the movie progresses, until the end, which is as much a condemnation as it is a tragedy. These conflicting dual perspectives give the movie an inscrutably slippery edge that pays off in dividends in the closing reels. Kudos also to Penn's directorial approach to the material, which is simply ferocious and constantly engaging, as well as to the delightful ensemble.

Agreed on not understanding that particular criticism. Not agreed on "ferocious" directing. I thought it was merely amateurish.

Rowland

11-24-2007, 02:13 AM

Not agreed on "ferocious" directing. I thought it was merely amateurish.He employed a loose, "let's try this!" aesthetic that suitably mirrored the material, as passionate as it was tactless, and always expressive.

Duncan

11-24-2007, 02:59 AM

I watched 28 Weeks Later today. Decent fast-zombie flick. Its allegory is as subtle as American soldiers slaughtering hundreds of civilians, but, um, at least it has an idea or two? I dunno. It suffers from a few wtf plotting moments as well. Still, it's snazzy and always moving at a good clip. The sister is way hot. I liked Days better.

Boner M

11-24-2007, 02:59 AM

He employed a loose, "let's try this!" aesthetic that suitably mirrored the material, as passionate as it was tactless, and always expressive.
Beautifully put, and I completely agree.

baby doll

11-24-2007, 03:27 AM

what poster were you originally?On Rotten Tomatoes, I was sooriyakumaran, but on the old MatchCut (no hyphens!), I was Domino Harvey.

Sycophant

11-24-2007, 04:09 AM

Ugh. I barely got home from the theater and am struggling to remember anything I liked about Enchanted. Um, let's see... at one point, about halfway through the movie, a fourish girl in the row in front of me asked her mother if this movie was called "Enchanted" and she was very proud to discover she was right.

Adams was cute and played her part fairly well. Same goes for Marsden. And, what the hell, Spall, too. But none of their parts should have been played period.

This is just about my least favorite movie this year. And I wanted very much to like it. :confused:

Duncan

11-24-2007, 04:23 AM

I can't believe I took my av from a Kenneth Anger film and still didn't make it into Boner's av.

MadMan

11-24-2007, 04:50 AM

Yeah Big Trouble in Little China rocks hardcore. I think it and the first Pirates of the Caribbean film actually have a lot in common, and both are a blast. Looking at the sequels to "The Curse of the Black Pearl" I'm glad there's only one BTILC.

I saw The Incredibles on TV last night and I remembered why I really like the movie and also why I only gave it a 9.0, which puts it beneath the Toy Story flicks, Finding Nemo and PIXAR's latest film about a certain rat. I actually think the movie would have been far greater had it stuck to discussing further the whole conflict about being special vs. conformity and the desire to be "normal." And also featuring more of the funny and sharp humor that resulted from Mr. Incredible being forced to work like an average Joe, trapped in a life that often caused him to chose between betraying his principals and beliefs or getting fired. Still I'll admit that the action sequences were very impressive and entertaining, and that Syndrome was a pretty solid villian.

Ezee E

11-24-2007, 04:57 AM

On Rotten Tomatoes, I was sooriyakumaran, but on the old MatchCut (no hyphens!), I was Domino Harvey.
Ah. NOw it all makes sense.

Grouchy

11-24-2007, 05:04 AM

Conan the Destroyer is basically the PG version of the original Conan. Which is ok, I guess, it's a helluva decent Barbarian flick, and the comedy doesn't completely overrun the roleplaying adventure side. The hand-animated FX are worth noting, kinda reminiscent of Big Trouble in Little China. And Grace Jones, of course. I fucking love that 1.8m black ass hitting all the King's men with an oversized thootpick. And her singing, too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZRTbjpFCF4). I guess the movie is lesser than the first entry, which I count among my Top100 of all time, just never bothered to catch the sequel until now. Still, Grace Jones. Crom!

I'm at my gf's house, so I don't have my yearly lists (Jesus how embarassing), but since I'm drinking wine and about to roll a joint and watch Memoirs of an Invisible Man, I might as well spend 20 minutes on making a 2006 Top10.

Ezee E

11-24-2007, 05:11 AM

Watching the Kubrick movies on Blu-Ray makes me happy. I generally watch each Kubrick movie once a year at some point, and I never grow weary of them. Eyes Wide Shut is what I watched today, and each time, the sexual approaches to the main characters is fascinating to watch. The dreaminess of the whole film gets to me too. I'm not exactly sure what to consider a dream either.

Grouchy

11-24-2007, 05:14 AM

1. Children of Men
2. Paprika
3. Inland Empire
4. Fearless
5. Casino Royale
6. El Laberinto del Fauno [Pan's Labyrinth]
7. The Departed
8. Slither
9. Black Snake Moan
10. Crank

Can't believe Babel is making ANY lists.

Sven

11-24-2007, 05:23 AM

Kantoku Banzai! (or Glory to the Filmmaker!) is something I can't help but be just a tiny bit disappointed with, given Kitano's similar approach but more profound results in the previous Takeshis. This one is more Getting Any? than it is Takeshis, but is far from the exhausting mind-numbing effect of the former, and more deliberate in its deconstruction of Kitano's career than the latter. Plenty of totally Laugh-Out-Loud gags, a plethora of beautiful moments for beautiful moments' sakes, plenty of times when you don't know how to respond to the totality of its absurdity. It's infinitely watchable (though Takeshis is infinitely watchable plus a few for great measure), but a little too much for one sitting. Some of the stuff Kitano pulls off is instantly ingenious (the dummy stand-in when he gets in a tight spot is inspired on numerous levels of meta- and slapstick effect--I especially like the way its maneuvered during an action sequence). The karate sequence and the noodle shop/WWF sequences inform Kitano's cinema of persistence (and are hilarious to boot). Still, there's a lot that doesn't seem to do much. I did like it quite a lot, though, and can't wait to watch it again.

I also saw his short for that To Each His Own Cinema compilation film, and it was glorious!

Sycophant

11-24-2007, 05:29 AM

I also saw his short for that To Each His Own Cinema compilation film, and it was glorious!
I watched the short yesterday, too and found it delightful. I wish more people made more short films. Anyone know if To Each His Own Cinema might ever see larger distribution? There's a lot of stuff in there I'd like to see and I'd rather not have to seek out all 33 directors' most recent efforts to get them.

Meanwhile, I can't wait to watch Kantoku Banzai! My copy's sitting behind me right now and I can almost hear it breathing. If I can't get a group viewing organized for or by Saturday, I'm going to watch it on my own.

Watashi

11-24-2007, 06:04 AM

Is Takeshis' out on DVD yet?

megladon8

11-24-2007, 06:08 AM

Has anyone else seen the commercial of a monkey drumming "In the Air Tonight" yet?

It must have been a solid 2 minutes. That was hilariously random, and I hope I am never forced to sit through it again in a theatre.

*looks upon YouTube*

EDIT: Here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbLr2NEV_7o&feature=related) if anyone wants to check it out.

It's quite worth watching at least once.

Stay Puft

11-24-2007, 06:10 AM

Thoughts on Conan the Destroyer

I found it difficult not to be largely disappointed after the surprisingly effective Conan the Barbarian. Destroyer is a decent romp, and has some fun action scenes, but the humor is mostly bad and it suffers from sequel-itis. Punching the camel in the original is a singular moment. Referencing it here is annoying at best, the kind of cloying idiocy that informs the entire running time of the Pirates sequels (second anyways, haven't bothered with the third). That said Grace Jones does indeed elevate the entire adventure a good deal.

Thoughts on Kantoku Banzai! (or Glory to the Filmmaker!)

Mostly agreement, though I have not seen Getting Any? or Takeshis' (the only two I'm missing) so I may have been lacking the appropriate stylistic context (though I have seen some of his manzai performances). My immediate response was complete bewilderment. I largely could not, as you nicely put it, respond to the totality of its absurdity. But it is an effective deconstruction of his career, and perhaps moreso a rousing celebration of the creative spirit. The ending, which finally reveals the title in full, I found exhilirating in its affirmation. The final line is the perfect capper, playful in its duplicity.

My favorite detail was Professor Ide's laugh. So grating at first, but by the end I was tearing up with laughter. And the footage of his giant war robot operating in the Gulf was awesome.

Spinal

11-24-2007, 06:23 AM

Still love Babel.

Henry Gale

11-24-2007, 06:53 AM

A little late but:

1. Pan's Labyrinth - ****
2. Bubble - n/a
3. Children Of Men - ****
4. The Departed - **1/2
5. The Lives Of Others - n/a
6. United 93 - ****
7. Flags Of Our Fathers / Letters From Iwo Jima - n/a / ****
8. Perfume: The Story Of A Murderer - n/a
9. Babel - **1/2
10. Man Push Cart - n/a

All the ones I haven't seen are ones that I've been meaning to get around to for a while now. But as it stands the choices made seem very much the usual types of movies that make up his Top 10 lists complete with the stuff I love and think should be higher and the stuff I find overrated though not surprising at all that they're on the list.

Spinal

11-24-2007, 07:06 AM

My 2006 list:

1. Inland Empire
2. Manderlay
3. Babel
4. Happy Feet
5. 49 Up
6. United 93
7. V for Vendetta
8. Little Children
9. Marie-Antoinette
10. Shortbus

Based on what was available to me last year, not IMDb dates. The Lives of Others and Paprika are on my 2007 list for the time being.

Grouchy

11-24-2007, 07:52 AM

I found it difficult not to be largely disappointed after the surprisingly effective Conan the Barbarian. Destroyer is a decent romp, and has some fun action scenes, but the humor is mostly bad and it suffers from sequel-itis. Punching the camel in the original is a singular moment. Referencing it here is annoying at best, the kind of cloying idiocy that informs the entire running time of the Pirates sequels (second anyways, haven't bothered with the third). That said Grace Jones does indeed elevate the entire adventure a good deal.
Man, I agree with what you just said word by word. Destroyer is the ultimate sequel-itis movie. It's good, but nowhere as good as what we've seen before.

Memoirs of the Invisible Man is likewise a mixed bag. I had enormous laughs with it, and the fact that Carpenter pulled off a movie like this is a testament to his incredible directing skills and storyboarding inspiration. But I can't shake off the feeling that Chevy Chase was miscast here, because as good a comedic actor as he undoubtedly is, the part required an actor who could pull off the dramatic weight that was needed for the role, like Sam Neill himself is. Besides that, the climatic sequence is rushed and somewhat idiotic when compared to the amount of suspense manufactured through the entire movie. I appreciate this as an intelligent sci-fi romantic comedy, and undoubtedly better than similar recent products, but it's lesser Carpenter all the way.

I'm drunk and high as hell. If any of you sons of bitches want any proof, add an hour and a half to your current timezones and ponder the fact that I JUST finished watching a movie on my own while caressing my girl's cat. And that I plan on going to a Bewoulf 3D IMAX showing tonight. And finishing the post-production of a film project during the afternoon. Sometimes I hate myself and my self-induced insomnia.

ledfloyd

11-24-2007, 11:24 AM

my list for 2006:

1. Departed
2. Children of Men
3. Army of Shadows
4. Half Nelson
5. A Prairie Home Companion
6. Inland Empire
7. Old Joy
8. Letters from Iwo Jima
9. Volver
10. Lady Vengeance

Hon. Mention to A Guide to Recognizing Your Saints, Game 6, A Scanner Darkly, Art School Confidential, and The Science of Sleep.

Mr. Valentine

11-24-2007, 12:38 PM

Is Takeshis' out on DVD yet?

nope

Mal

11-24-2007, 01:45 PM

'06
1. Perfume : The Story of a Murderer
2. The Fountain
3. United 93
4. Clerks II
5. Shortbus
6. Jonestown : Life and Death of the People's Temple
7. Children of Men
8. Casino Royale
9. Hard Candy
10. American Dreamz

Honorable Mentions::
Drawing Restraint 9, Little Children, The Notorious Bettie Page, Tristram Shandy : a Cock and Bull Story, Dixie Chicks : Shut up and Sing, The Devil and Daniel Johnston
[ugh... crappy year]

Melville

11-24-2007, 02:15 PM

Going by IMDb dates due to laziness:

1. Once
2. Time
3. Marie Antoinette
4. Inland Empire
5. Paprika
6. Jesus Camp
7. Scoop
8. Children of Men
9. Volver
10. United 93

I watched Tropical Malady yesterday. The last half hour or so is pure ethereal gold. And I can't recall another film that so successfully relies on ambient noise.

ledfloyd

11-24-2007, 02:17 PM

dreamdead

11-24-2007, 02:28 PM

i watched all or nothing this morning. my third leigh film. and the third one i've loved. albiet not quite as much as naked or secrets and lies. any ideas on where to head next? i'm thinking vera drake. netflix doesn't seem to have high hopes, life is sweet, or topsy-turvy.

AoN has a strange power in the way it suddenly bowls you over with its finale, which is as blunt and revealing as any of his work. That said, I too hold it in just a little lesser regard, as the film establishes its bitter milieu a little too long and drags. Though Career Girls isn't on par with either Naked or Secret and Lies, it does some interesting things with ideas of identity and youth culture. Given my general dislike for biopics, I've avoided Vera Drake, despite Leigh's imprint.

If you're at a university, you should be able to access state libraries and interlibrary loan any of the three Netflix doesn't carry, since I've seen them all that way.

balmakboor

11-24-2007, 02:43 PM

I've watched the first 8 (out of 15) parts of Berlin Alexanderplatz and it's fine - not as great as I was expecting. The story rambles a lot - the style of the original story (written in 1929) was influenced by Joyce's Ulysses. There's a 1931 movie version of the story that I'll be watching after I watch this. So yeah, it really does feel a lot like Ulysses (which I never did finish) - the cinematography is excellent and all the acting is as well, especially from the actors portraying Biberkopf and Reinhold. The theme music is repeated often but in different variations - however the version that is done on harmonica (sounds a bit like something from a Leone Western) is very grating and oversentimental. There's some excellent use of overlapping soundtracks - I think similar to that found in The Third Generation (from the previous year) and some Eno like music used in one of the episodes (the best one so far - the one where the women get passed around). Like Ulysses, there is not a lot of drama and there's very little forward momentum - things just kinda happen and you have no idea where the story will go next - but the story is not that interesting. The film is exceptionally good at portraying Germany in the 20s (I wasn't there but I can imagine it like the movie shows).

A couple minor quibbles first: There are only 14 episodes including the epilogue and I disagree that the harmonica score is grating or overly sentimental. If anything, what you describe as Eno-like music is the one place where the score feels a bit out of place.

I've finished watching everything except the epilogue (the epilogue got a total WTF out of me 25 years ago, I'm curious about how it will look now). For me, it meanders along (mostly in compelling ways) until Reinhold appears. Then it jumps up a major few notches. Later, in episode nine when the third corner of the triangle appears -- Mieze -- it soars off into the stratosphere and becomes pretty much my favorite movie ever.

I found it interesting to read that Fassbinder almost put the book down out of boredom as a teenager until Reinhold appeared around page 150. From then on, he couldn't put it down. It makes me wonder why he didn't simply cut out those 150 pages and cut right from Franz's release to the meeting with Reinhold. It would've bee too bad though because episode 2 is one of my favorites.

Sycophant

11-24-2007, 02:51 PM

Is Takeshis' out on DVD yet?English subtitled versions are available from Japan (about $36) and Canada (about $16).

Mysterious Dude

11-24-2007, 02:54 PM

1. Children of Men
2. Babel
3. The Prestige
4. Iraq in Fragments
5. United 93
6. Once
7. Journey from the Fall
8. The Lives of Others
9. The Science of Sleep
10. Half Nelson

Still not perfect.

Sven

11-24-2007, 03:17 PM

Meanwhile, I can't wait to watch Kantoku Banzai! My copy's sitting behind me right now and I can almost hear it breathing. If I can't get a group viewing organized for or by Saturday, I'm going to watch it on my own.

Oh, man... if there's one thing that I regret, it's not seeing it with a bunch of Kitano fans. I imagine it would've only been better to see it with you guys. I would say make sure you at least get Enoch in on it. He'll love it.

Sven

11-24-2007, 03:18 PM

My favorite detail was Professor Ide's laugh. So grating at first, but by the end I was tearing up with laughter.

Goddamn, that was funny.

Sycophant

11-24-2007, 03:26 PM

If anyone's considering seeing Enchanted still, know that you'll be paying for one of the most blatant 100-minute commercials I've ever had the displeasure of sitting through.

I woke up angry at this movie.

Mysterious Dude

11-24-2007, 03:42 PM

Sycophant

11-24-2007, 03:51 PM

A commercial for what?Disney, the Disney Princesses product line, Disneyland, and consumer spending in general.

The fact that in the beginning the Dempsey character gives his daughter that book on great women and then that's never brought up again pretty much makes my blood boil. This film is reprehensible.

origami_mustache

11-24-2007, 04:58 PM

Away From Her was pretty much a waste of time. An interesting premise, but overly sentimental music along with superficial and on-the-nose dialogue left a stale taste in my mouth.

Mal

11-24-2007, 05:04 PM

Disney, the Disney Princesses product line, Disneyland, and consumer spending in general.

The fact that in the beginning the Dempsey character gives his daughter that book on great women and then that's never brought up again pretty much makes my blood boil. This film is reprehensible.

Maybe the book wasn't brought up again because no six year old, with or without a mother figure, can relate to Suffragist movement?

Sycophant

11-24-2007, 05:07 PM

Maybe the book wasn't brought up again because no six year old, with or without a mother figure, can relate to Suffragist movement?
What I mean is that it introduces the concept of real role models, with real virtues, fighting real problems and then ends with everyone in frilly dresses and ever afters. I prefer this kind of blithe, giddy fantasy to be completely ignorant of reality instead of entertaining it before dismissing it. That is one of the chief inherent faults in the movie.

Ezee E

11-24-2007, 05:19 PM

Away From Her was pretty much a waste of time. An interesting premise, but overly sentimental music along with superficial and on-the-nose dialogue left a stale taste in my mouth.
Hmm... I guess I'll find out tonight if that's true.

Philosophe_rouge

11-24-2007, 05:19 PM

I only saw 20 2006 releases, so this is subject to change.

1. Marie Antoinette
2. Volver
3. Inland Empire
4. Children of Men
5. Pan's Labyrinth
6. The Fountain
7. A Prairie Home Companion
8. Little Children
9. Casino Royale
10. Dave Chapelle's Block Party

Rowland

11-24-2007, 05:34 PM

2006

1. The Death of Mr. Lazarescu
2. Children of Men
3. The Fountain
4. The Proposition
5. The Science of Sleep
6. Brick
7. Pan's Labyrinth
8. A Prairie Home Companion
9. Inside Man
10. Crank

Honorable Mentions: Miami Vice, Kekexili: Mountain Patrol, Marie Antoinette, The Descent, Conversations With Other Women, Down in the Valley, Apocalypto, The Heart is Deceitful Above All Things, Battle in Heaven, Stick It

This ranking is pretty arbitrary, as I find myself rearranging them seemingly at random over time. Only the positions of the first three remain constant.

megladon8

11-24-2007, 05:40 PM

Every year I come the the realization that I really haven't seen as many movies as I think I have. But from what I've seen in 2006, my list would probably look a little like this...

01.) The Fountain
02.) Pan's Labyrinth
03.) The Prestige
04.) The Departed
05.) The Proposition
06.) Children of Men
07.) Inland Empire
08.) Casion Royale
09.) Volver
10.) Superman Returns

Rowland

11-24-2007, 05:41 PM

Mal

11-24-2007, 05:51 PM

What I mean is that it introduces the concept of real role models, with real virtues, fighting real problems and then ends with everyone in frilly dresses and ever afters.

BUT the Frilly Dresses =
a female entrepreneur. Not a lot of those in Disney movies.

eternity

11-24-2007, 05:57 PM

2006 was a phenomenal year. Lots of great comedies that couldn't make this list, as well.

1. Brick (Rian Johnson)
2. The Fountain (Darren Aronofsky)
3. Stranger than Fiction (Marc Forster)
4. Pan's Labyrinth (Guillermo Del Toro)
5. Thank You for Smoking (Jason Reitman)
6. The Descent (Neil Marshall)
7. The Prestige (Christopher Nolan)
8. Little Miss Sunshine (Jonathon Dayton and Valerie Feris)
9. Children of Men (Alfonso Cuaron)
10. The Queen (Stephen Frears)

Honorable Mentions (aka movies I really liked in 2006 too):
-Slither (James Gunn)
-The Departed (Martin Scorsese)
-Little Children (Todd Field)
-Cars (John Lasseter)
-Hard Candy (David Slade)
-Akeelah and the Bee (Doug Atchinson)
-Strangers with Candy (Paul Dinello)
-Grandma's Boy (Nicholaus Goossen)
-Running Scared (Wayne Kramer)
-Art School Confidential (Terry Zwigoff)
-V for Vendetta (James McTeigue)
-Lucky Number Slevin (Paul McGuigan)
-Clerks II (Kevin Smith)
-John Tucker Must Die (Betty Thomas)
-Shadowboxer (Lee Daniels)
-A Scanner Darkly (Richard Linklater)
-Snakes on a Motherfucking Plane (David R. Ellis)
-Beerfest (Jay Chandrasekhar)
-Idiocracy (Mike Judge)
-Tideland (Terry Gilliam)
-Alex Rider: Operation Stormbreaker (Gregory Sax)
-Borat (Larry Charles)
-For Your Consideration (Christopher Guest)

Philosophe_rouge

11-24-2007, 06:05 PM

I'm a raging Powell and Pressburger fangirl, and I do what I can to get a hold of all their films. Just finished Gone to Earth (1950), a film that's much better than I expected, and in many ways better than it should be. Paralleling Black Narcissus, the setting is moved to the countryside and there are no nuns. It's lust and passions that drive the film, even down to including a similar finale and David Farrar representing male lust (he's so damn good at it...)
While I think it's just short of being a "masterpiece" (only becomes of some clumsy transitions from one scene or action to the next), it's a film that deserves a good restoration and release because it's absolutely stunning and could develop a good following.

chrisnu

11-24-2007, 06:35 PM

Anyone open to playing Fantasy Moguls (http://fantasymoguls.com/) again? The least league only had six participants, and I'd like to see broader competition in a new league. The league would be for only two months, December - February.

Ezee E

11-24-2007, 07:03 PM

origami_mustache

11-24-2007, 07:19 PM

Hmm... I guess I'll find out tonight if that's true.

My opinions often differ, so I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Watashi

11-24-2007, 07:24 PM

Weird that there is so much hate for Enchanted here, while it's almost unanimously praised by the critical establishment, and even those who give it negative scores aren't too harsh. *shrug* If my family goes, I'll tag along.

Amy Adams is charming. It's easy to see how critics were easily swept off her feet by her mannerisms and looking adorable. Still, besides a few catchy numbers, it's pretty damn lifeless.

origami_mustache

11-24-2007, 07:34 PM

I saw a lot of films in 2006 and most of them were meh.

top ten:

Pan's Labyrinth
The Science of Sleep
The Fountain
Children on Men
Half Nelson
United 93
Volver
The Departed
Shortbus
Tideland

biggest disappointments: Brick, Bobby Lucky Number Slevin, For Your Consideration, Stanger Than Fiction, Fast Food Nation, Little Children

monolith94

11-24-2007, 08:16 PM

I didn't think Tideland was top-ten worthy, but I did respect its refusal to play things safe. Man, what a grimy little film.

Sven

11-24-2007, 08:24 PM

I didn't think Tideland was top-ten worthy, but I did respect its refusal to play things safe. Man, what a grimy little film.

One of the three Gilliam films that I would call "good", but I know your feelings (you even like The Brothers Grimm!), so I won't get into it. :)

I'm glad you liked it. Grimy, yes, and very vivid. Very memorable, I've found.

Melville

11-24-2007, 08:49 PM

eternity

11-24-2007, 08:54 PM

Boner M

11-24-2007, 08:55 PM

Watched the rest of Vol. 2 of The Kenneth Anger collection last night (Kustom Kar Kommandos, Rabbit's Moon as well as Invocation of My Demon Brother and Lucifer Rising, which I'd seen before). I ended up watching them again with Anger's (rather boring) commentary, but fell asleep during Rabbit's Moon, and had the weirdest dream about it. Oh man, it was beyond words.

Anyway, I find I don't really get much out of Anger as far as meaning goes, but everything I've seen ranges from 'pretty neat' to 'inspiring', so that's good enough.

Boner M

11-24-2007, 09:05 PM

So Death Proof was tedious in its celebration of '70s kitsch and idiotic characters, and reprehensible in its glamorization (and pseudo-feminist justification) of violent revenge. Man, what an unlikable film.
Yeah, basically. Plus, the fact that the only women in the film that he shows any interest or makes us empathise with are those who share his interests in obscuro pop-culture miscellenae pretty much negates any empowerment he attempts. I suppose you could point to the first crash scene to refute this, but then that's the big Psycho-esque expectation-defying sequence that we're supposed to be shocked by. It's not a 'revealing' film, it's just ugly.

Ezee E

11-24-2007, 09:32 PM

My opinions often differ, so I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
Yeah, from what I did see of it, you nailed it. I fell asleep for about an hour of it. I don't think I have any intention of watching it again either.

Mal

11-24-2007, 09:44 PM

Qrazy

11-24-2007, 09:44 PM

Yeah, basically. Plus, the fact that the only women in the film that he shows any interest or makes us empathise with are those who share his interests in obscuro pop-culture miscellenae pretty much negates any empowerment he attempts. I suppose you could point to the first crash scene to refute this, but then that's the big Psycho-esque expectation-defying sequence that we're supposed to be shocked by. It's not a 'revealing' film, it's just ugly.

I saw someone once write... 'I liked Planet Terror, but I loved Death Proof because it makes you think more.' :rolleyes:

Mal

11-24-2007, 09:45 PM

Melville

11-24-2007, 09:50 PM

I remember Death Proof being fairly well liked around here. I guess I was wrong.

Kurosawa Fan

11-24-2007, 09:52 PM

I remember Death Proof being fairly well liked around here. I guess I was wrong.

I didn't care much for it either. I think it's fairly mixed.

balmakboor

11-24-2007, 09:57 PM

A couple minor quibbles first: There are only 14 episodes including the epilogue and I disagree that the harmonica score is grating or overly sentimental. If anything, what you describe as Eno-like music is the one place where the score feels a bit out of place.

I've finished watching everything except the epilogue (the epilogue got a total WTF out of me 25 years ago, I'm curious about how it will look now). For me, it meanders along (mostly in compelling ways) until Reinhold appears. Then it jumps up a major few notches. Later, in episode nine when the third corner of the triangle appears -- Mieze -- it soars off into the stratosphere and becomes pretty much my favorite movie ever.

I found it interesting to read that Fassbinder almost put the book down out of boredom as a teenager until Reinhold appeared around page 150. From then on, he couldn't put it down. It makes me wonder why he didn't simply cut out those 150 pages and cut right from Franz's release to the meeting with Reinhold. It would've bee too bad though because episode 2 is one of my favorites.

I watched the epilogue today. It is two hours of Fassbinder indulgence -- well earned indulgence -- but indulgence all the same. I'm not saying that as a bad thing though. I found it all fascinating in how it re-wove all the elements from the prior 13 1/2 hours into something new, something always fun to watch, something that is Fassbinder at his most unhinged. I found myself wondering where or if Margit Carstensen (my favorite Fassbinder actress) was going to figure into all of this. She plays an angel. Cool. I loved how the patchwork of appropriated music -- Elvis Presley, Velvet Underground, Strauss, etc. -- was used. It made me feel back in Beware of a Holy Whore land. Some of the imagery is like an orgy scene from Beware crossed with the slaughterhouse from 13 Moons -- these scenes also shed light on why so many characters were directed to scream so intensely during the main part of the series. The epilogue is basically all about the sort of imagery that occasionaly bled into the main body of the series such as the slaughter of the lamb and the animated spider walking across a corpse. The imagery that makes almost hilariously literal the Christ symbolism of the prior 13 episodes is clearly an extension of the similar imagery from The Niklashausen Journey and looked ahead to Querelle.

In short, as is everything else in Berlin Alexanderplatz, the epilogue is a delirious feast for Fassbinder fans.

Rowland

11-24-2007, 09:58 PM

I liked Away From Her quite a bit. Polley's direction is perceptive and evocative, the performances are phenomenal, and its portrayal of the terror and grief induced by the degenerating mind of a loved one is all too tangible. There are a few precocious touches and failed stabs at humor that damage the integrity of the piece, and the grace note that closes the film strikes me as cheap, but it still works as a whole.

Philosophe_rouge

11-24-2007, 09:59 PM

I actually liked Planet Terror and Death Proof with the same relative enthusiasm, both had their charms and I think compliment each other well. Proof I liked especially for the final act (a duh, I think), and Zoe Bell's infectious presence. The first half is a little slow to get on it's feet, but I was still entertained. It helped build up the second group of girls who I thought were a lot more likeable, if not just as artificial.

balmakboor

11-24-2007, 10:03 PM

Gone to Earth (1950) 9.5/10
Meet Me in St. Louis (1944) 9.5/10

:pritch:

megladon8

11-24-2007, 10:04 PM

I remember Death Proof being fairly well liked around here. I guess I was wrong.

Both of the Grindhouse films have gone down in my ratings scale since the theatrical viewing.

It was a great experience to see both films and all the trailers in a theatre, with an audience.

Watching it at home on a regular sized TV without all of the content there...it just wasn't there same, and neither of the films are particularly good on their own.

MadMan

11-24-2007, 10:06 PM

I liked Death Proof more than Planet Terror, but not by much. I have a feeling that had they been made into movies Don't!, Thanksgiving and Machete would have been better than either of the actual films featured in the double bill. Werwolf Women of the SS would have been trashy fun at best, but hey I would have probably seen it had Zombie fleshed it out into a full length feature film. I do like that Grindhouse together ran only what, 3 hours long? Each film on their own is relatively short which is a good thing, and I actually felt the last act in Planet Terror could have been cut.

Rowland

11-24-2007, 10:11 PM

I liked both halves about equally, and for different reasons. Still, I wasn't terribly enamored with either of them, and the project ran too long. Neither feature's runtime should have exceeded 70 minutes.

Ezee E

11-24-2007, 10:17 PM

Grindhouse is extremely entertaining and probably one of the best film experiences this year.

As stand-alone films, Death Proof and Planet Terror are still very good movies. They each work in their own way. Planet Terror as a satiric homage to the zombie movies, while Death Proof is more or less a 70's movie that gets a bit tedious, but when it's on, it's better then anything else this year. The longer version unfortunatly takes more of the tedious part when at the gas station.

Rowland

11-24-2007, 10:22 PM

jesse

11-24-2007, 10:25 PM

I rewatched the first half hour of Edipo Re this morning and I'm bumping up my rating by a whole point. I haven't been able to get it out my mind for days. A really magnificent achievement.

Qrazy

11-24-2007, 10:28 PM

Sven

11-24-2007, 10:36 PM

I rewatched the first half hour of Edipo Re this morning and I'm bumping up my rating by a whole point. I haven't been able to get it out my mind for days. A really magnificent achievement.

One of my very favorite films. It's tapestry of violence and atmosphere (I especially love the caravan-execution sequence) is unforgettable.

MadMan

11-24-2007, 10:45 PM

My favorite part of Planet Terror was the dynamic between Brolin and Shelton. I'd like to say that I wish they were more prominently featured, but then I wonder if that would have made for too much of a good thing. Then again, anything would have been better than Tarantino's embarrassing guest appearance.

Oh yes, and the sex scene that was so hot it melted the celluloid. That was a clever and sexy gag.What I loved also about that hot sex scene was that shortly after they started getting busy the screen burns out and then the next scene we get is the bar on fire and the zombies coming towards the survivors. My friends and I laughed at that in the theater.

jesse

11-24-2007, 11:05 PM

One of my very favorite films. It's tapestry of violence and atmosphere (I especially love the caravan-execution sequence) is unforgettable. What really gets to me is that opening... there's something about it that is so beautifully realized that I'm almost disappointed when it cuts away to ancient Greece (or Pasolini's inception of it), though I'm almost instantly engrossed once the story starts. And Silvana Mangano is so beguiling, there's something so ancient in those eyes...

I'll probably end up finishing it, and I very rarely rewatch films in such a short period of time.

chrisnu

11-25-2007, 12:33 AM

Yes plz. I would love a hat trick in kickin' yo ass.
:lol:

What was your user name before?

chrisnu

11-25-2007, 01:02 AM

After creating an account at FantasyMoguls.com, if you have not already done so, the league you will wish to join is:

Match Cut & Icine

The password is:

leroyjenkins

This league actually includes the last weekend of November, in addition to December and January. Whey they create overlapping leagues, I don't know.

megladon8

11-25-2007, 01:22 AM

The confrontation and subsequent fight between Grant and Bond on the train in From Russia With Love has to be one of my very favorite scenes ever.

megladon8

11-25-2007, 02:09 AM

What happened to Dragon Dynasty? Did they die already?

They haven't announced any new releases in quite a while, and their website hasn't even been updated in months.

Rowland

11-25-2007, 02:22 AM

Redacted kinda sucks. I'd love to say that it's at least ambitious, but even De Palma's politics are reductive and pandering, and he utterly wastes a conceptually intriguing formal conceit that was ripe with possibilities. Even the much-lauded rape scene isn't affecting because the two characters involved are such hateful caricatures, laughably over-performed by hammy amateurs. De Palma's approach to a very similar sequence in Casualties of War was far superior, and even that was almost ruined by Penn hamming it up.

Kurosawa Fan

11-25-2007, 02:57 AM

Yxklyx

11-25-2007, 03:11 AM

I watched the epilogue today. It is two hours of Fassbinder indulgence -- well earned indulgence -- but indulgence all the same. I'm not saying that as a bad thing though. I found it all fascinating in how it re-wove all the elements from the prior 13 1/2 hours into something new, something always fun to watch, something that is Fassbinder at his most unhinged. I found myself wondering where or if Margit Carstensen (my favorite Fassbinder actress) was going to figure into all of this. She plays an angel. Cool. I loved how the patchwork of appropriated music -- Elvis Presley, Velvet Underground, Strauss, etc. -- was used. It made me feel back in Beware of a Holy Whore land. Some of the imagery is like an orgy scene from Beware crossed with the slaughterhouse from 13 Moons -- these scenes also shed light on why so many characters were directed to scream so intensely during the main part of the series. The epilogue is basically all about the sort of imagery that occasionaly bled into the main body of the series such as the slaughter of the lamb and the animated spider walking across a corpse. The imagery that makes almost hilariously literal the Christ symbolism of the prior 13 episodes is clearly an extension of the similar imagery from The Niklashausen Journey and looked ahead to Querelle.

In short, as is everything else in Berlin Alexanderplatz, the epilogue is a delirious feast for Fassbinder fans.

Heh, we were watching it at about the same time. I finished it a couple of hours ago as well. Eh, I didn't care much for the finale, it has its moments here and there. Throughout the series, any scene with Reinhold was top notch - especially the woman swapping episode with the incredible Eno-ish music. Overall it's fine but a bit too overindulgent for me.

My favorite of Fassbinder's is The Stationmaster's Wife (theatrical cut) and I can imagine that I would also find the longer television cut over-indulgent. That one's been cut down to a fine gem while Alexanderplatz is much coarser and raw - lots of great stuff in it but as whole doesn't quite make it for me. I'm glad I didn't buy it outright but I will probably revisit it sometime in the future.

balmakboor

11-25-2007, 03:19 AM

I just finished watching Louis Malle's God's Country. It's a terrific portrait of a small Minnesota farming town with lots of memorable characters. It's also every bit as politically pointed as Michael Moore only in a way that is much more natural, less in your face. I live in North Dakota and found every bit of this documentary extremely identifiable.

This was my first foray into the Documentaries of Louis Malle box set and I really liked what I saw. This one actually seemed a lot like Gates of Heaven only with a greater sense of affection for the subjects. I'm eager to visit the other docs in the set.

balmakboor

11-25-2007, 03:37 AM

Heh, we were watching it at about the same time. I finished it a couple of hours ago as well. Eh, I didn't care much for the finale, it has its moments here and there. Throughout the series, any scene with Reinhold was top notch - especially the woman swapping episode with the incredible Eno-ish music. Overall it's fine but a bit too overindulgent for me.

My favorite of Fassbinder's is The Stationmaster's Wife (theatrical cut) and I can imagine that I would also find the longer television cut over-indulgent. That one's been cut down to a fine gem while Alexanderplatz is much coarser and raw - lots of great stuff in it but as whole doesn't quite make it for me. I'm glad I didn't buy it outright but I will probably revisit it sometime in the future.

I agree that the Stationmaster's Wife is great. I'd really love to see Bolweiser though. I'm a huge Fassbinder fan as my username attests and BA was an automatic purchase. I've actually been waiting impatiently for most of 25 years to get the chance to experience it again and watching it over the past week definitely exceeded my memories and expectations. My plan is to give it a break for a bit, watch some other things like Tropical Malady which has been sitting here for a few days, and then watch each episode again writing a full length review of each on my blog.

As for the epilogue: Does it work? No, not really. I appreciate what Fassbinder was trying to do and I found it to illuminate much of what came before it. I think watching the first 13 episodes again now will be a different experience because of it. I do love the epilogue though. It was a very bold and audacious way to end things and I had a great deal of fun with it on its own terms. Ultimately, the whole scope and magnitude of the entire work just floored me all over again the way it did 25 years ago, only this time was far more rewarding because I've come to know Fassbinder's work so well over the intervening years.

My favorite Fassbinders? Well, BA would probably be it. I'm also very partial to Whity, Holy Whore, Ali, Martha, Fox, Third Generation, 13 Moons, Lola, and Veronika Voss.

Philosophe_rouge

11-25-2007, 04:00 AM

Watched Tarzan and his Mate, overall it's a bit too long and repetitive, which unfortunately results in the climax feeling dull and drawn out. Otherwise though, it's a fairly good film. I love the dynamics of Tarzan's instincts versus "mans" and how in many ways, they're very similar, although since Tarzan is not motivated at any point by greed or desire for wealth we find the crucial difference in their behavior. The underwater "ballet" is also one of the most stunning scenes I've seen in a long time.

megladon8

11-25-2007, 04:02 AM

Philosophe_rouge

11-25-2007, 04:15 AM

The saddest thing about Grindhouse for me, is the fact that because it was a failure, it won't spawn any more films in the same vein.

I think there should be more double-bill formatted films, and I think there's a lot more territory that could be explored in the grindhouse format.
Yup, it's a damn shame. When I was in high school, me and a friend of mine sat down one day and mapped out a schedule for an entire year for a repertoire theatre, which included exclusively double bills, unless something like Lawrence of Arabia would be playing.

Bosco B Thug

11-25-2007, 04:45 AM

So Death Proof was tedious in its celebration of '70s kitsch and idiotic characters, and reprehensible in its glamorization (and pseudo-feminist justification) of violent revenge. Man, what an unlikable film.
Wow, I completely disagree with all the comments on Death Proof on the previous page. I find it impossible to write off the film as simply a glamorization of violent revenge or judgemental ode to the spunky woman. It's "ugliness" belies that.

MadMan

11-25-2007, 05:26 AM

The saddest thing about Grindhouse for me, is the fact that because it was a failure, it won't spawn any more films in the same vein.

I think there should be more double-bill formatted films, and I think there's a lot more territory that could be explored in the grindhouse format.I pretty much agree with this statement. The double bill is pretty much dead at this point, which is a damn shame indeed.

The confrontation and subsequent fight between Grant and Bond on the train in From Russia With Love has to be one of my very favorite scenes ever.That fight is pretty badass, and is one of the best (if not the best) in the series.

See I didn't find Death Proof to be ugly at all. I fail to understand this criticism in the slightest.

Winston*

11-25-2007, 05:34 AM

The Matador was fairly meh-owulf. The film doesn't really have much to it other than watching Pierce Brosnan do a vulgar riff on his Bond persona, and I'd already seen him do that in the more interesting The Tailor of Panama. It never really goes anywhere. Watchable enough though, kind of makes me want to rewatch the Boorman film.

Mysterious Dude

11-25-2007, 05:37 AM

The Matador was fairly meh-owulf.
Please let this be the last time this phrase is used on this forum. :|

Ezee E

11-25-2007, 05:39 AM

Please let this be the last time this phrase is used on this forum. :|
I dug it.

MadMan

11-25-2007, 05:40 AM

Please let this be the last time this phrase is used on this forum. :|Oh I donno....in time that phrase may become a part of Match-Cut-speak ;)

I happened to like The Matador quite a bit. Sure the flick isn't great or anything, but it made me laugh a good deal and Brosman and Kinear were pretty solid in it as well. If anything else Brosman standing at the door, peaking in the eye whole and saying "Danny with the big white fanny!" was hilarious.

Spinal

11-25-2007, 05:42 AM

I am not jumping on the meh-owulf train.

Mysterious Dude

11-25-2007, 05:43 AM

Oh I donno....in time that phrase may become a part of Match-Cut-speak ;)
I guess that's Mike's revenge for all the Danny Huston jokes.

Winston*

11-25-2007, 05:46 AM

I like how it requires a mispronunciation of either meh or Beowulf to work.

Grouchy

11-25-2007, 05:48 AM

I found Death Proof pretty dull and overcooked, specially with the excessive use of the cool dialogue thingy, or maybe it didn't work as good as in other Tarantino films because the actresses weren't that good. But I don't follow those "moral ugliness" comments because, once again, with QT it's all a matter of genre. Any criticism aimed at Death Proof is pretty much valid for the explotation films it's inspired by, like Thriller: A Cruel Picture or I Spit on your Grave. And Grindhouse is blatantly advertised as exploitation, so, if it's obvious you're not gonna dig it...

I liked Planet Terror's way of being cheeky a lot more. And the trailers, of course. Last I heard, Machete is scheduled for production, right?

Just came back from Bewoulf in IMAX 3D. I'll write about it tomorrow. Now, la la, to bed.

MadMan

11-25-2007, 06:10 AM

I guess that's Mike's revenge for all the Danny Huston jokes.Mike is KF no? In any case heh, perhaps it is.

Will I go see Machete when its released? Hell yes. About time Danny Trejo got a starring role in a movie. Plus I want to see him lead an army of machete wielding peasants. Looks like pretty awesome stuff to me.

Bosco B Thug

11-25-2007, 06:18 AM

See I didn't find Death Proof to be ugly at all. I fail to understand this criticism in the slightest. Tonal ugliness. The demise of the weaker parties in either half of the film are pretty upsetting and mean-spirited.

BirdsAteMyFace

11-25-2007, 06:31 AM

My local arthouse theatre is showing Heima in two weeks. Yay!

Watashi

11-25-2007, 06:35 AM

Hmm... I guess enjoying Death Proof puts you in the minority around here. I still haven't seen the extended cut, the Grindhouse cut remains one of my favorite films of the year. D_Davis wrote a great review of the film that I echo most of.

Sycophant

11-25-2007, 06:41 AM

Wow. I was actually under the impression we liked Death Proof here. Huh.

Meanwhile, even though I liked Beowulf, I embrace meh-owulf with open arms.

Watashi

11-25-2007, 06:42 AM

I like Meh-chanted more.

Yxklyx

11-25-2007, 07:56 AM

I loved both Death Proof and Planet Terror!

Yxklyx

11-25-2007, 08:04 AM

King Lear (1971, Kozintsev/Shapiro)

Hmm, I haven't read the play in a very long time but after watching this movie I have to say that this is one of Shakespeare's better stories. Usually he will have two parallel stories that interact only slightly but here he's got the two stories blending together to magnificent effect.

The cinematography is excellent as well as the acting. Characters with only a few seconds of screen time come across very fully. I can't imagine a better adaptation - the ending had me in tears. My only gripe is that there're a lot of walking scenes - I dunno seems like some trimming could have been made there. Lots of processions ala Fellini - a few too many.

The DVD was from Facets and is not anamorphic. The sound and audio are very good but the subtitles are poor at times.

Yxklyx

11-25-2007, 08:16 AM

I agree that the Stationmaster's Wife is great. I'd really love to see Bolweiser though. I'm a huge Fassbinder fan as my username attests and BA was an automatic purchase. I've actually been waiting impatiently for most of 25 years to get the chance to experience it again and watching it over the past week definitely exceeded my memories and expectations. My plan is to give it a break for a bit, watch some other things like Tropical Malady which has been sitting here for a few days, and then watch each episode again writing a full length review of each on my blog.

As for the epilogue: Does it work? No, not really. I appreciate what Fassbinder was trying to do and I found it to illuminate much of what came before it. I think watching the first 13 episodes again now will be a different experience because of it. I do love the epilogue though. It was a very bold and audacious way to end things and I had a great deal of fun with it on its own terms. Ultimately, the whole scope and magnitude of the entire work just floored me all over again the way it did 25 years ago, only this time was far more rewarding because I've come to know Fassbinder's work so well over the intervening years.

My favorite Fassbinders? Well, BA would probably be it. I'm also very partial to Whity, Holy Whore, Ali, Martha, Fox, Third Generation, 13 Moons, Lola, and Veronika Voss.

Fassbinder is an odd pleasure of mine. I don't consider any of his films "masterpieces" but they have several traits that attract me that I find in no other films: the stagey way his characters interact, the cutting dialogue, the overlaying of soundtracks, the cynical stories - all of these make me look forward to my next Fassbinder viewing. At the same time, I find that he wallows too much - I suppose you could call that self-indulgence and that turns me off. I did not like 13 Moons much but the rest are very good especially Holy Whore and Third Generation.

Qrazy

11-25-2007, 08:58 AM

Fassbinder is an odd pleasure of mine. I don't consider any of his films "masterpieces" but they have several traits that attract me that I find in no other films: the stagey way his characters interact, the cutting dialogue, the overlaying of soundtracks, the cynical stories - all of these make me look forward to my next Fassbinder viewing. At the same time, I find that he wallows too much - I suppose you could call that self-indulgence and that turns me off. I did not like 13 Moons much but the rest are very good especially Holy Whore and Third Generation.

I preferred and feel that 13 moons has a lot more to say than Holy Whore. Ali is still the first and most compelling film I've seen of his, but I have a ton left to see. Fox and his Friends was my most recent outing, which I enjoyed a great deal.

Winston*

11-25-2007, 09:15 AM

The Fog's a pretty cool little atmospheric ghost story. I think it's John Carpenter's prettiest film.

Qrazy

11-25-2007, 10:10 AM

The Fog's a pretty cool little atmospheric ghost story. I think it's John Carpenter's prettiest film.

Ugh, no way. It has a couple of effective tense moments/scares but The Thing, Halloween, Escape from NY, Assault on Precinct 13 and a couple others are all light years ahead aesthetically.

Winston*

11-25-2007, 10:17 AM

Ugh, no way. It has a couple of effective tense moments/scares but The Thing, Halloween, Escape from NY, Assault on Precinct 13 and a couple others are all light years ahead aesthetically.

I said prettiest. I don't think it's his most aesthetically adept.

Boner M

11-25-2007, 11:33 AM

Just watched Bed and Board. It's always charming and fun, if a little wallpaper-ish and forgettable. Not bad by any means, but the kind of film that I can't picture someone being passionate about in any way. Considering how openly Truffaut detested aggressively middlebrow, innocuous, 'cinéma de qualité' in the pages of Cahiers, it strange how frequently challenge-averse and accommodating his own films are. Even The 400 Blows, despite being in my all-time top 20, has always felt to me like it could've used a little more grit. Still have many of his to see, tho.

balmakboor

11-25-2007, 12:35 PM

I guess meh-owulf only works for me if one mispronounces meh. Or at least I think so. I've always pronounced it with a short "e".

I'm pretty sure that I consider Death Proof my favorite Tarantino. I may want to watch Jackie Brown again just to be positive.

Mal

11-25-2007, 01:36 PM

:lol:

What was your user name before?

Don't look
Girl 2.0... Banana Sandwich Pics... and the current Hit by Pitch Studios... I rule.

DSNT

11-25-2007, 01:57 PM

I'm not the biggest fan of earlier Bergman, but Sawdust & Tinsel was a pleasant surprise. This film seems to be the turning point in his career, where he excels at zeroing in on human conflict and emotion, and it touches on many of the themes seen throughout Bergman's later work. There's an early flashback scene that is right up there with the best of Bergman. Highly recommended.
8.5/10

Kurosawa Fan

11-25-2007, 02:27 PM

The Matador was fairly meh-owulf.

:pritch:

Please let this be the last time this phrase is used on this forum. :|

Meh-owulf is our future. Embrace it.

I dug it.

:pritch:

I am not jumping on the meh-owulf train.

Seeing the movie will change your mind.

I guess that's Mike's revenge for all the Danny Huston jokes.

Not even close. I've been slapped around with Huston jokes far too long for one phrase to erase it all. Meh-owulf is just the tip of the iceberg. :twisted:

Melville

11-25-2007, 04:00 PM

Wow, I completely disagree with all the comments on Death Proof on the previous page. I find it impossible to write off the film as simply a glamorization of violent revenge or judgemental ode to the spunky woman. It's "ugliness" belies that.
Yeah, it occurred to me while watching the film that maybe Tarantino was trying to subvert the glamorization of revenge by making Stuntman Mike cry like a baby and the most "innocent" of the girls so enthusiastically jump on the violent-revenge train. It also seemed to acknowledge its own kitsch in the car chase, as the two '70s muscle cars speed through modern day traffic, making explicit that all these characters are somewhat ridiculous throwbacks. But I don't think the film pushes those themes in any kind of meaningful way.

Ezee E

11-25-2007, 04:04 PM

Grindhouse - ****

Planet Terror / Death Proof - *** 1/2

Weird how combining them makes it better. But it worked perfectly.

Melville

11-25-2007, 04:10 PM

Grindhouse - ****

Planet Terror / Death Proof - *** 1/2

Weird how combining them makes it better. But it worked perfectly.
I think the combination, along with the fake trailers, would have made for a much more interesting homage than either film on its own (although I haven't seen Planet Terror).

Melville

11-25-2007, 04:20 PM

But I don't follow those "moral ugliness" comments because, once again, with QT it's all a matter of genre. Any criticism aimed at Death Proof is pretty much valid for the explotation films it's inspired by, like Thriller: A Cruel Picture or I Spit on your Grave. And Grindhouse is blatantly advertised as exploitation, so, if it's obvious you're not gonna dig it...
Yeah, I have no interest in exploitation films. But I was hoping that QT would use the genre's tropes to comment on... something. Or at least that he would make the experience less tedious than he did. After Kill Bill and this, I've pretty much given up on him. He seems to be getting ever closer to making a film that is nothing but one long, meaningless, drawn-out conversation between empty, irritating characters.

Ezee E

11-25-2007, 04:34 PM

I think the combination, along with the fake trailers, would have made for a much more interesting homage than either film on its own (although I haven't seen Planet Terror).
I need to watch Planet Terror again, but Death Proof loses some of its "homage" part when on its own. The editing errors and scratches just seem strange.

Melville

11-25-2007, 04:45 PM

I need to watch Planet Terror again, but Death Proof loses some of its "homage" part when on its own. The editing errors and scratches just seem strange.
It's also strange that the film largely changes its style in the second half, not just abandoning the obvious errors but also adopting a generally smoother editing style and a sharper image quality. Although that might fit in with the idea that QT is actually subverting his own homage.

Sven

11-25-2007, 04:55 PM

It's also strange that the film largely changes its style in the second half, not just abandoning the obvious errors but also adopting a generally smoother editing style and a sharper image quality. Although that might fit in with the idea that QT is actually subverting his own homage.

It's a structural expression of the movie's theme of pleasure v. pain. Just like Mike's sado-masochistic drive is expressed within the death proof car itself during the bit with Rose, and is expressed in that first car accident (his pleasure, everyone's pain), the first (horror) half culminates in gruesome hurt, the second (action) half is transformed into thrills and pleasure. I think it works.

Rowland

11-25-2007, 05:13 PM

The Fog's a pretty cool little atmospheric ghost story. I think it's John Carpenter's prettiest film.Yeah, it's a visual stunner, and a pretty damn entertaining ghost story as well. Carpenter was a master with the 2.35:1 anamorphic widescreen ratio back in the day.

Qrazy

11-25-2007, 06:26 PM

I said prettiest. I don't think it's his most aesthetically adept.

I disagree. I found his compositions were fairly blocky and his palette drab.

Qrazy

11-25-2007, 06:30 PM

Philosophe_rouge

11-25-2007, 06:36 PM

I love cinematic propaganda, there is something so wonderful and intriguing about it... assuming it's well made. Even my favourite filmmakers, Powell & Pressburger are essentially propaganda makers, at least their output from 1939-1940 is (with an exception here and there). I just finished my first Humphrey Jennings film, A Diary for Timothy. Made just a little before the war was over, it's an abstract but heartily accessible work that traces about 5 months starting in 1944, ending in early 45'. It's narrative is structured around the birth of a child, and is a hopeful look at the future, without ever forgetting the uncertainty that there will even be one. I think I'll try and see Listen to Britain next, if not Fires were started.

Sven

11-25-2007, 07:10 PM

I like how the film is basically encapsulated by the sheriff's comment about why he does it... 'My guess is it's some weird sex thing'. Now that's insight for ya.

How come people are looking to Death Proof for insight? You folks is strange. It's a nifty formal illustration of ideas about pop culture that has a few exciting sequences and some charismatic performances. And there's much more going on with Stuntman Mike's character than just "weird sex thing". The expressions are all over the film, thematically and structurally. Tarantino likes to present more than he likes to dive into or deal with. Death Proof is not really an insight into sado-masochism, but it's a (in my opinion) interesting illustration.

Melville

11-25-2007, 07:54 PM

It's a structural expression of the movie's theme of pleasure v. pain. Just like Mike's sado-masochistic drive is expressed within the death proof car itself during the bit with Rose, and is expressed in that first car accident (his pleasure, everyone's pain), the first (horror) half culminates in gruesome hurt, the second (action) half is transformed into thrills and pleasure. I think it works.
I'm not sure I follow your argument. Could you expand on this?

Anyway, back to movies that I like: I just watched Anh Hung Tran's Cyclo, and it definitely did some bizarre things with genre and structure. What starts as a realist story about a poor bicycle taxi driver and his family, almost a modernized version of The Bicycle Thief, radically shifts into a melodramatic gangster movie when Tony Leung shows up. He pulls the entire movie into an orbit around his brooding, chain-smoking, self-loathing charisma. As he continues to silently brood, everything around him, from the taxi driver and his sister to the cinematography and score, devolves into swirling phantasmagoria of perversion and self-destruction.

The whole thing was a bit of a shock, given the meditative flow of Tran's first film (The Scent of Green Papaya), but I ended up really liking it.

Bosco B Thug

11-25-2007, 08:02 PM

Yeah, I have no interest in exploitation films. But I was hoping that QT would use the genre's tropes to comment on... something. Or at least that he would make the experience less tedious than he did. After Kill Bill and this, I've pretty much given up on him. He seems to be getting ever closer to making a film that is nothing but one long, meaningless, drawn-out conversation between empty, irritating characters. It comments on the genre itself, gender roles, roundabout empowerment via brutality. It brings to light unfortunately inherent norms about senses of empowerment by contrasting the first half's small-time radio girls with the last half's Hollywood tough chicks and Rosario Dawson's turning Judas on the cheerleader character. I guess I can't change anyone's reaction to the dialogue and indulgent talking scenes, but I found them hilarious, engaging, and well-acted (and not merely throwaway scenes, I guess I'd have to commit to that defense, too).

I like how the film is basically encapsulated by the sheriff's comment about why he does it... 'My guess is it's some weird sex thing'. Now that's insight for ya. And it's written for a character not meant to provide real insight, so... Like iosos said, the film's insights lie in its formal construction, not didactic psychoanalyzations of its characters, and its a superior, more challenging film because of it. It blurs many lines made in exploitation features, yet authentically captures the feel of many exploitation flicks in its upsetting, not-exactly crowd-pleasing display of passionate violence... yet still works its way as a critical re-invention and re-examination of genre that's very Kubrickian (also very non-Kubrickian, mind you).

Rowland

11-25-2007, 09:35 PM

The more I think about Redacted, the more frustrating it grows for me. If nothing else, it is difficult to dismiss, partly because of how infuriatingly de Palma fucks up so much of its potential. The French documentary material that establishes the milieu was so promising, working on various levels that the remainder of the movie fails to convincingly sustain... I'm almost tempted to deem it a satire, if only De Palma didn't project his intentions as being so sincere.

Lucky

11-25-2007, 10:26 PM

Double Indemnity is still a favorite of mine. Probably my favorite Wilder, too.

MacGuffin

11-25-2007, 11:09 PM

Qrazy

11-25-2007, 11:39 PM

It comments on the genre itself, gender roles, roundabout empowerment via brutality. It brings to light unfortunately inherent norms about senses of empowerment by contrasting the first half's small-time radio girls with the last half's Hollywood tough chicks and Rosario Dawson's turning Judas on the cheerleader character. I guess I can't change anyone's reaction to the dialogue and indulgent talking scenes, but I found them hilarious, engaging, and well-acted (and not merely throwaway scenes, I guess I'd have to commit to that defense, too).

And it's written for a character not meant to provide real insight, so... Like iosos said, the film's insights lie in its formal construction, not didactic psychoanalyzations of its characters, and its a superior, more challenging film because of it. It blurs many lines made in exploitation features, yet authentically captures the feel of many exploitation flicks in its upsetting, not-exactly crowd-pleasing display of passionate violence... yet still works its way as a critical re-invention and re-examination of genre that's very Kubrickian (also very non-Kubrickian, mind you).

Whether or not the film achieves it's thematic goals doesn't really interest me, because I find the goals to be trite and uninteresting in the first place. Does the film succeed on it's own terms? Maybe, although there's a lot of tedious, not particularly tense build up in the first act, and Tarantino's dialogue has become so self-indulgent and self-satisfied that it's almost nauseating... Yeah, I suppose it's an above average exploitation flick, but I find the idea that because it exists as such, we must therefore embrace the genre in order to critique it, is absurd. In fact, because the film exists as a postmodern amalgam of the genre it's derived from, it is the perfect candidate to condemn for those who find these types of films to be an ideological distasteful approach to the medium.

origami_mustache

11-26-2007, 01:07 AM

I didn't think Tideland was top-ten worthy, but I did respect its refusal to play things safe. Man, what a grimy little film.

I didn't think Tideland was top ten worthy either until I realized how bad 2006 was for films.

Philosophe_rouge

11-26-2007, 01:27 AM

Force of Evil is pretty rocking, although somewhat underdeveloped... probably due to budget constraints. John Garfield is incredible though, I need to get to watching more of his films.

Sycophant

11-26-2007, 01:37 AM

I definitely agree with what Henry Gale and Spinal were saying a couple pages back about Meet the Robinsons. It's a pity the first two acts pretty much did nothing for me, because the third act was really, really strong.

Watashi

11-26-2007, 01:47 AM

I love the first two acts of Meet the Robinsons...

Boner M

11-26-2007, 01:57 AM

Fando and Lis was bit of a slog overall, but it certainly has it's moments of inspired anarchy. I can't help but feel that these kind of symbolism-fests need a big budget to truly work their magic, as The Holy Mountain proves.

Loved the shot that circles around Lis while following Fando as he spiral-runs up the surrounding dirt crater. That was way cool.

Bosco B Thug

11-26-2007, 02:10 AM

Yeah, I suppose it's an above average exploitation flick, but I find the idea that because it exists as such, we must therefore embrace the genre in order to critique it, is absurd. In fact, because the film exists as a postmodern amalgam of the genre it's derived from, it is the perfect candidate to condemn for those who find these types of films to be an ideological distasteful approach to the medium. What makes an exploitation flick an exploitation flick for you? "Exploitation" isn't a genre in the first place, and Death Proof uses its banner "shocking and visceral!" thrills to create emotionally challenging responses from the viewer in much the same way movies like A Clockwork Orange use their mean-spirited visceral thrills to evoke its own intellectual dissertations. Buuuut then again, 'Clockwork' doesn't feel the need to endear us to its characters in the same way 'Death Proof' does, sooo... (again, though, I'm still siding with the idea that those methods of "endearing" us do not detract and actually add and make more challenging its criticisms of its characters and what they represent - the close-up on Dawson breaking into this world of female empowerment is an identification technique with her character simultaneously as it is also a critical observation).

Sycophant

11-26-2007, 02:47 AM

Rowland (or anyone else who's seen 'em, though I think that's just him), what's the best way to watch Serpent's Path and Eyes of the Spider? Would a back-to-back viewing be a good idea?

Rowland

11-26-2007, 03:08 AM

Rowland (or anyone else who's seen 'em, though I think that's just him), what's the best way to watch Serpent's Path and Eyes of the Spider? Would a back-to-back viewing be a good idea?Watching them back-to-back is the most rewarding approach, as it makes his achievement of shooting two remarkably divergent approaches to the same core theme, with most of the same actors, back-to-back, and for only two weeks apiece all the more impressive. Serpent's Path is the better of the two, so you might want to save that for last.

Duncan

11-26-2007, 03:16 AM

Would anybody care to recommend me what they feel is the best Shakespeare adaption onto film? Yxklyx's avatar of King Lear has sparked my attention. I might check that film out. Keep in mind, I don't know much about Shakespeare at all.

Well, I always liked Throne of Blood. It's Kurosawa's adaptation of Macbeth.

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 03:17 AM

Just watched a fun little Ealing romp, Whisky Galore! Bacardijim would have hated it, and not because he's a Vodka man.

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 03:42 AM

What makes an exploitation flick an exploitation flick for you? "Exploitation" isn't a genre in the first place, and Death Proof uses its banner "shocking and visceral!" thrills to create emotionally challenging responses from the viewer in much the same way movies like A Clockwork Orange use their mean-spirited visceral thrills to evoke its own intellectual dissertations.

Such superficial comparisons between Death Proof and Clockwork in regards to harsh character portrayal and 'visceral thrills' carry little weight with me. In one film you're meant to first fear and then cheer for the violence in equal measures, while in Clockwork the violence actually maintains the ugliness and pain that real violence possesses. Tarantino likes ugliness. He embraces it. He's a nihilist and an exhibitionist. Here are his thoughts on Clockwork.

"I always thought Kubrick was a hypocrite, because his party line was, I'm not making a movie about violence, I'm making a movie against violence. And it's just, like, Get the fuck off. I know and you know your dick was hard the entire time you were shooting those first twenty minutes, you couldn't keep it in your pants the entire time you were editing it and scoring it. You did it for those first twenty minutes. And if you don't say you did, you're a fucking liar."

I'm not sure why you view yourself as arbiter on determining what is and is not a genre, particularly since a genre is just a loose set of criteria for determining a category, but all the same The Film Encyclopedia (Katz) views them as a genre, as do I.

MacGuffin

11-26-2007, 03:48 AM

Well, I always liked Throne of Blood. It's Kurosawa's adaptation of Macbeth.

I don't know if this is a subtle attempt to have me take another look at "classic" Asian cinema, but nonetheless, I'll look into it. I appreciate the reccomendation.

Duncan

11-26-2007, 03:51 AM

I don't know if this is a subtle attempt to have me take another look at "classic" Asian cinema, but nonetheless, I'll look into it. I appreciate the reccomendation.

Oh, I completely forgot about that conversation. I just really think it's one of the best.

Mysterious Dude

11-26-2007, 03:51 AM

Tarantino always was so eloquent.

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 03:52 AM

Oh, I completely forgot about that conversation. I just really think it's one of the best.

I'm also quite fond of Chimes at Midnight.

Two more classic Asian, Lear-esque story lines are Ran and Tokyo Story.

MadMan

11-26-2007, 04:03 AM

Tarantino always was so eloquent.I like the man's movies. But I can't stand the guy, and I think if I met him in public he'd annoy me to the point where I would want to punch him in the face.

Bosco B Thug

11-26-2007, 04:11 AM

Such superficial comparisons between Death Proof and Clockwork in regards to harsh character portrayal and 'visceral thrills' carry little weight with me. In one film you're meant to first fear and then cheer for the violence in equal measures, while in Clockwork the violence actually maintains the ugliness and pain that real violence possesses. Tarantino likes ugliness. He embraces it. He's a nihilist and an exhibitionist. Here are his thoughts on Clockwork.

"I always thought Kubrick was a hypocrite, because his party line was, I'm not making a movie about violence, I'm making a movie against violence. And it's just, like, Get the fuck off. I know and you know your dick was hard the entire time you were shooting those first twenty minutes, you couldn't keep it in your pants the entire time you were editing it and scoring it. You did it for those first twenty minutes. And if you don't say you did, you're a fucking liar."

I'm not sure why you view yourself as arbiter on determining what is and is not a genre, particularly since a genre is just a loose set of criteria for determining a category, but all the same The Film Encyclopedia (Katz) views them as a genre, as do I. Forgive my impetuous inconsideration of "exploitation" and the word "genre," I didn't mean it to be so harsh a disregard of your own use and view of the word, but likewise, the Tarantino quote and justifications against the work using the transitory mentality of the artist carry little weight with me. He could be as "aware" of the "eloquence" of his statements as Antoine is and we wouldn't know it.

And I very much disagree that Tarantino embraces his violence and I can recall nothing in the actual film (both halves of it) that supports that view from my POV. I don't see how Tarantino embraces it any more than Kubrick - Tarantino doesn't disassociate pain from it, and he doesn't use musical juxtaposition until his admittingly mean-spirited ending.

For the record, I'm not too sure about my own feelings toward A Clockwork Orange at the moment - its transgressiveness is surely brilliant in its incongruous artfulness - but I must admit I prefer the product of Tarantino's more back-bending emotional insights to Kubrick's intellectual social insights.

Sycophant

11-26-2007, 04:14 AM

Watching them back-to-back is the most rewarding approach, as it makes his achievement of shooting two remarkably divergent approaches to the same core theme, with most of the same actors, back-to-back, and for only two weeks apiece all the more impressive. Serpent's Path is the better of the two, so you might want to save that for last.Thanks. I'll be doing just that some time later this week.

Rowland

11-26-2007, 04:17 AM

Thanks. I'll be doing just that some time later this week.Excellent. I'll be looking forward to your thoughts, as you'll be the first person I know to see them. Maybe I'll even rewatch them so they're fresh in my mind.

Duncan

11-26-2007, 04:47 AM

I re-watched Lessons of Darkness and Fata Morgana today. Lessons of Darkness is great, but Fata Morgana is probably one of my favorite films ever.

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 05:02 AM

Forgive my impetuous inconsideration of "exploitation" and the word "genre," I didn't mean it to be so harsh a disregard of your own use and view of the word, but likewise, the Tarantino quote and justifications against the work using the transitory mentality of the artist carry little weight with me. He could be as "aware" of the "eloquence" of his statements as Antoine is and we wouldn't know it.

And I very much disagree that Tarantino embraces his violence and I can recall nothing in the actual film (both halves of it) that supports that view from my POV. I don't see how Tarantino embraces it any more than Kubrick - Tarantino doesn't disassociate pain from it, and he doesn't use musical juxtaposition until his admittingly mean-spirited ending.

For the record, I'm not too sure about my own feelings toward A Clockwork Orange at the moment - its transgressiveness is surely brilliant in its incongruous artfulness - but I must admit I prefer the product of Tarantino's more back-bending emotional insights to Kubrick's intellectual social insights.

If we're going to have a purely formal, behavioristic artistic analysis then yes, it will be difficulty for me to point to anything specific in the work that demonstrates his enjoyment (not necessarily embracement) of cinematic violence. But if you'll grant me tonal content, of which I know you're quite fond, as evidence of both intent (further evidence can be found in any interview with the man) and intent imbued execution of sexist and violent predispositions... then I cite the consciously executed, thinly sketched, self-centered vapidity of the first few girls, the striptease and the following car crash as evidence of this attitude. And the fun loving death of the 'villian' at the end further evidence.

What pray tell is so emotionally insightful about Death Proof? I have yet to hear it cogently expressed.

Duncan

11-26-2007, 05:27 AM

I'm also quite fond of Chimes at Midnight.

Two more classic Asian, Lear-esque story lines are Ran and Tokyo Story.

I never really thought of Tokyo Story as a King Lear adaptation. Not nearly enough people die.

Haven't seen Chimes at Midnight, but it's one of those hard to find films that I'm always on the lookout for. I thought Welles' Othello was very good.

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 05:40 AM

I never really thought of Tokyo Story as a King Lear adaptation. Not nearly enough people die.

Yeah it differs, but the structure is the same. I also really like Othello. Don't go out of your way for his Macbeth. It's OK but nothing to write how about.

Bosco B Thug

11-26-2007, 05:42 AM

If we're going to have a purely formal, behavioristic artistic analysis then yes, it will be difficulty for me to point to anything specific in the work that demonstrates his enjoyment (not necessarily embracement) of cinematic violence. But if you'll grant me tonal content, of which I know you're quite fond, as evidence of both intent (further evidence can be found in any interview with the man) and intent imbued execution of sexist and violent predispositions... then I cite the consciously executed, thinly sketched, self-centered vapidity of the first few girls, the striptease and the following car crash as evidence of this attitude. And the fun loving death of the 'villian' at the end further evidence.

What pray tell is so emotionally insightful about Death Proof? I have yet to hear it cogently expressed. I'm probably cutting further discussion short, but yes, you know me so well, I am quite fond of tonal content! :P But you see, the fact is, I don't personally see vapidity and scorn in authorial tone for the first batch of girl. I see sympathy. I'm not sure how to reconcile our polar opposite readings of the tone. This has been a point of contention since discussion about the film over at the first Matchcut site. For better or for worse, whether understanding or chauvinism, I see Tarantino acknowledging them as the more real, more authentic group of women, trapped in gender fatalism, emotional neediness, and a deep-rooted sense of vulnerability and un-empowerment. The striptease is nicely played up by Tarantino, but it remains a necessary narrative development illustrating the girls' sense of their gender and idea of proving themselves. The car crash, their "girl's night out" cut short as I've put it before, is strangely elegiac (some review used that word to describe the whole first act) as it is gut-churningly upsetting (I'm up in the air about the necessity of the morbid awfulness of what we see in that scene). As for the villain's demise, I think I've mentioned how the girls' revenge strikes a critical tone with me, even in its "fun-loving"ness, which I find purely inhabited by the characters themselves, not the viewers.

In all that, I find emotional insight into its characters.

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this. :) I know the poster DavidSeven is on my side!

MadMan

11-26-2007, 06:13 AM

Qrazy and Bosco B Thug's discussion/debate is awesome stuff. I've read all of it and I think it would have made for a fascinating and great thread.

Boner M

11-26-2007, 06:16 AM

I'm probably cutting further discussion short, but yes, you know me so well, I am quite fond of tonal content! :P But you see, the fact is, I don't personally see vapidity and scorn in authorial tone for the first batch of girl. I see sympathy.
But it's all pretend-sympathy, just a misleading warm-up for the big crash scene that comes later. And it's not like he loves these women; they're just Maxim babes who awkwardly talk about stuff only he gives a shit about. That's why they're grooving to an obscure British Invasion band right before they're offed; QT doesn't want us to think "OMG, but they were such lovely gals!", it's "OMG, they were hot and knew who Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich were!". Notice in the second half that the cheerleader that's left behind by the girls to be presumable molested by the mechanic is the one who hadn't heard of Vanishing Point. Pretty lame, QT.

As for the villain's demise, I think I've mentioned how the girls' revenge strikes a critical tone with me, even in its "fun-loving"ness, which I find purely inhabited by the characters themselves, not the viewers.
This, however, I can sorta agree with. The tone of the revenge scene is so flippant and comes after so much seemingly unimportant banter that the whole effect feels like a tribute to female camaraderie and sisterhood more than a revenge fantasy. If only said camaraderie had been more compelling.

Sycophant

11-26-2007, 06:25 AM

There was little doubt in my mind that Kiyoshi Kurosawa could capably handle a human drama film, but I was still impressed by License to Live.

Seeing Sho Aikawa pop up as a "geek" was somewhat mind-blowing.

Spinal

11-26-2007, 06:40 AM

Henry Gale

11-26-2007, 07:08 AM

I've been unintentionally viewing way too many movies about the future and time travel in the last few days. Between Futurama: Bender's Big Score, Meet The Robinsons, and now Southland Tales it's gotten ridiculous. Each one's time travel logic and views of the future became more crazy and illogical than the last (and the quality also went down with each as well). But in the end all I know is that no matter what I watch next I'm probably going to end up trying to figure out some secret plot or scheme a character may have going on or a big twist that won't be there.

Maybe I'll watch Hairspray next. Even though it's so obvious that the big reveal is that we learn John Travolta's character once lived his whole life as a man only to realize later on that he truly in his heart wanted to be a woman. So because of holes in the ozone layer (and therefore the space-time continuum) due to the overuse of hairspray cans he managed to travel back in time to change his appearance and relive his whole life again as a woman only making some weird changes in the science of the human race that caused them to burst out into song and dance and believe things like John Travolta in a fat suit isn't the scariest thing on earth (let alone it looking anything like a real woman). We also find out that Amanda Bynes and Zac Efron are aliens or something too, because really no people should be that orange.

So don't think you can't fool me Hollywood... you predictable bastards.

Bosco B Thug

11-26-2007, 07:12 AM

Qrazy and Bosco B Thug's discussion/debate is awesome stuff. I've read all of it and I think it would have made for a fascinating and great thread. Heh, glad you got something out of it! :)

But it's all pretend-sympathy, just a misleading warm-up for the big crash scene that comes later. And it's not like he loves these women; they're just Maxim babes who awkwardly talk about stuff only he gives a shit about. That's why they're grooving to an obscure British Invasion band right before they're offed; QT doesn't want us to think "OMG, but they were such lovely gals!", it's "OMG, they were hot and knew who Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich were!". Notice in the second half that the cheerleader that's left behind by the girls to be presumable molested by the mechanic is the one who hadn't heard of Vanishing Point. Pretty lame, QT. I, uh... disagree completely... which riiigghht, goes without saying! :P

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 07:31 AM

I'm probably cutting further discussion short, but yes, you know me so well, I am quite fond of tonal content! :P But you see, the fact is, I don't personally see vapidity and scorn in authorial tone for the first batch of girl. I see sympathy. I'm not sure how to reconcile our polar opposite readings of the tone. This has been a point of contention since discussion about the film over at the first Matchcut site. For better or for worse, whether understanding or chauvinism, I see Tarantino acknowledging them as the more real, more authentic group of women, trapped in gender fatalism, emotional neediness, and a deep-rooted sense of vulnerability and un-empowerment. The striptease is nicely played up by Tarantino, but it remains a necessary narrative development illustrating the girls' sense of their gender and idea of proving themselves. The car crash, their "girl's night out" cut short as I've put it before, is strangely elegiac (some review used that word to describe the whole first act) as it is gut-churningly upsetting (I'm up in the air about the necessity of the morbid awfulness of what we see in that scene).

But you have to admit that the camera ogles the girls incessantly throughout the film (their sex appeal is played up endlessly from make-up, shot angle, hell even set decoration and color scheme is geared to bring the eye to the ass or the breasts). In this way Tarantino undermines any attempt or pseudo-attempt he makes towards examining ideas of gender fatalism. If the film wished to examine this in any real sense it could keep the chauvinistic comments and attitudes of the male characters (two guys at the bar, etc) without engaging in a chauvinistic attitude of it's own. Cassavetes has a fairly compelling stripshow scene in The Killing of a Chinese Bookie which expresses much more clearly and honestly the sad realities of gender fatalism.

I can't say that I find the second group of girls represent empowerment in anything but the most superficial way... i.e. the two girls who like cars, thrills and esoteric 'guy-rindhouse' films represent female empowerment, as well as the third 'on the fence' girl they take into their fold. Whatever happened to 'self-education' and the development of the mind as a form of empowerment?

As for the villain's demise, I think I've mentioned how the girls' revenge strikes a critical tone with me, even in its "fun-loving"ness, which I find purely inhabited by the characters themselves, not the viewers.

In all that, I find emotional insight into its characters.

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this. :) I know the poster DavidSeven is on my side!

Perhaps not necessarily the viewers, but I'm inclined to believe that given what has followed we're encouraged to root for the second group of girls. This is especially apparent to me in the played for comedy beat down at the very end. I admit that Tarantino does show more awareness about the implications and ramifications of showing violence in relation to his themes, characters and our expectations... the short scene where Russell cleans his wound in agony for me exemplifies this awareness. But what bothers me is that he'll put a scene like that in there and then a reel or two later end the film with a bone-shattering drop kick to the head... thereby purposely undermining and downplaying the villian's... let's say 'emotional reality', for lack of a better term.

I can understand your reading of the film I think, and how the ending could be interpreted as commenting on the wound cleaning scene or maybe how the phone text messages near the beginning provide some more character sympathy or character depth, in a vaguely humorous, cheesy way... but for me it just feels like Tarantino sneering at the audience... saying something akin to... Look how I can reconstruct my film's internal reality from shot to shot, moment to moment, varying tone, acting style, etc in order to manipulate your emotions.

I'm certainly not disputing that the man has talent. I just feel that he puts it to use in a by and large conceptually unpalatable fashion. Aesthetically I have no qualms with the film. I guess what I dislike is that as grindhouse cinema it's tedious and as arthouse it isn't ideologically sound.

Bosco B Thug

11-26-2007, 08:24 AM

But you have to admit that the camera ogles the girls incessantly throughout the film (their sex appeal is played up endlessly from make-up, shot angle, hell even set decoration and color scheme is geared to bring the eye to the ass or the breasts). Okay.

I could argue - "genre deconstruction! self-awarely reductive aesthetic!" - but right, not a completely legit/thorough defense...

In this way Tarantino undermines any attempt or pseudo-attempt he makes towards examining ideas of gender fatalism. Not necessarily?

Cassavetes has a fairly compelling stripshow scene in The Killing of a Chinese Bookie which expresses much more clearly and honestly the sad realities of gender fatalism. Probably. Haven't seen the movie, or any Cassavetes. :sad:

I can't say that I find the second group of girls represent empowerment in anything but the most superficial way... i.e. the two girls who like cars, thrills and esoteric 'guy-rindhouse' films represent female empowerment, as well as the third 'on the fence' girl they take into their fold. Whatever happened to 'self-education' and the development of the mind as a form of empowerment? The narrow, constricted view on empowerment is a main point of the film. Also, perhaps "empowerment" can be replaced by "fear of victimization and being vulnerable," which, if seen in a "Yeah, that's normal for humans and thus worthy of respect and sympathy," then Tarantino's sympathies would be completely flipped.

Perhaps not necessarily the viewers, but I'm inclined to believe that given what has followed we're encouraged to root for the second group of girls. This is especially apparent to me in the played for comedy beat down at the very end. I'll concede Tarantino does want us to find glee and humor in the final scene, if not quite approval of what they're doing to poor ol' Mike.

I admit that Tarantino does show more awareness about the implications and ramifications of showing violence in relation to his themes, characters and our expectations... the short scene where Russell cleans his wound in agony for me exemplifies this awareness. Gooood. :P

But what bothers me is that he'll put a scene like that in there and then a reel or two later end the film with a bone-shattering drop kick to the head... thereby purposely undermining and downplaying the villian's... let's say 'emotional reality', for lack of a better term. Ugh, yeah, that stomp is mean, nasty stuff. But how is that supposed to undermine viewer's sympathy (... emotional reality?) of the sad pathetic-ness of his undoing?

... maybe how the phone text messages near the beginning provide some more character sympathy or character depth, in a vaguely humorous, cheesy way... Yeah, that is a strangely cheesy scene, especially when it's the bulwark of my "sympathy for inherent human emotional neediness" argument.

... but for me it just feels like Tarantino sneering at the audience... saying something akin to... Look how I can reconstruct my film's internal reality from shot to shot, moment to moment, varying tone, acting style, etc in order to manipulate your emotions. Ah, this is something else, and I can see where you're coming from here. I think the film's transcendent in its construction, though. I don't think I've ever seen something as unique, daring, and affecting (for me) in its brash postmodern deconstruction as this.

... as grindhouse cinema it's tedious Fair enough.

... and as arthouse it isn't ideologically sound. Agree to disagree.

Haha, sorry, kinda burnt out on you here. It's late and this convo has been a baaad (but welcomed!) procrastinating tool. :) I didn't expect you to retort back to me at this point, especially since I lined my previous post with happy smileys!

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 09:48 AM

Yeah, I think we're at the agree to disagree point in the conversation, but I'm also glad we had it. It allowed me to articulate both to you and to myself my problems with the film, as well as to hear the alternate perspective articulated... Which I don't entirely dismiss, and given that I do find it to be an aesthetically compelling film, there is a part of me which quite wants to embrace it on other levels (not trying to insinuate you are falling prey to this or anything, this is just how it is for me)... but for the reasons I've already outlined, I just can't do so.

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 09:49 AM

In other news I just watched Secret Honor and quite disliked it.

Briare

11-26-2007, 10:31 AM

Watched Zoo. Shamefully dull, unintentionally trashy. The little compound they had going on out there reminded me of some Barnum & Bailey winter keeping videos I once saw, except without the flogging of caged animals. Went in one ear and out the other. Failed to even give me the willies.

Ezee E

11-26-2007, 11:43 AM

Sicko is the first Michael Moore film where it doesn't seem like David vs. Goliath so much as Goliath vs. Goliath. But, by golly, what a colossal smackdown. There's far less humor than in his previous films, but the anecdotal evidence and pathos are deeply persuasive.
I still haven't seen it, so I can't really comment on it, but my only problem with the whole Cuba angle that they take is one question. What kind of improvement on medicine has Cuba made in the last twenty years? Sure, they'll help people, but how is the quality of their healthcare? How good are their medics? Etc.

DSNT

11-26-2007, 11:43 AM

Sicko is the first Michael Moore film where it doesn't seem like David vs. Goliath so much as Goliath vs. Goliath. But, by golly, what a colossal smackdown. There's far less humor than in his previous films, but the anecdotal evidence and pathos are deeply persuasive.
And just like his previous films, deeply manipulative and misleading. Maybe even more than usual in this film. Using England, Canada, France and (gasp!) Cuba as models of excellence is foolhardy. Their systems are far more flawed than ours.

Too bad, because he's absolutely right that we have a problem with uninsured in this country.

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 12:05 PM

And just like his previous films, deeply manipulative and misleading. Maybe even more than usual in this film. Using England, Canada, France and (gasp!) Cuba as models of excellence is foolhardy. Their systems are far more flawed than ours.

Too bad, because he's absolutely right that we have a problem with uninsured in this country.

I haven't seen the film and I disdain Michael Moore, but I am a dual citizen of the States and Canada and I grew up in the States and am now a student in Canada and I have to say that I think the Canadian system is much better. Flawed, but better.

Ezee E

11-26-2007, 12:36 PM

Going away from Death Proof a little, I was watching some of Reservoir Dogs yesterday, and I never thought about it before, but I'm quite amazed at the scene where Tim Roth tells his "story" to the other undercover cop/himself/the other thugs. We know that he's "just telling a story" in that it's all made up, but for some reason, it remains tense in that bathroom with the cops. When he hits the dryer, taking over all the talk, and the cops stare him down.

I guess I should put that in the "Great Scene" thread, but it feels appropriate here.

Reservoir Dogs, like Death Proof, does not provide much insight to me, but great entertainment.

Yxklyx

11-26-2007, 01:15 PM

Would anybody care to recommend me what they feel is the best Shakespeare adaption onto film? Yxklyx's avatar of King Lear has sparked my attention. I might check that film out. Keep in mind, I don't know much about Shakespeare at all.

Ran (Kurosawa) is a re-imagining of King Lear - that's the best one.

Also recommend:

Othello (Welles)
Hamlet (Branagh)
Henry V (Branagh)

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 01:25 PM

Notice in the second half that the cheerleader that's left behind by the girls to be presumable molested by the mechanic is the one who hadn't heard of Vanishing Point.

Actually, I thought it was more a commentary on her loving Pretty In Pink. She wasn't the only one who hadn't heard of Vanishing Point.

I still think that Daniel Davis nailed this one. Much like Kill Bill, it's about the kind of women QT admires, ones who are strong and independent. The women of the first half do nothing but talk about men, their whole lives are guided by their need for men. They cheer when one of them is plastered on a billboard for men to gaze upon. Tarantino took genuine -- and sadistic -- glee in expelling them from the narrative.

The women of the second half are of course different. They are sexy, but they are also tough and self-reliant. When they talk about a man, it is about manipulating him into letting them drive his muscle car.

The cheerleader didn't fit though. She should've been leading the billboard cheers during the first half. And once again Tarantino takes a certain -- also sadistic -- glee in getting rid of her.

One of the things that most clearly links Death Proof to the grindhouse type slasher and revenge pictures it apes is this sadism. Thriller: A Cruel Picture for instance is a very sadistic experience to sit through.

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 01:32 PM

Melville

11-26-2007, 01:45 PM

Damn, I missed out on this whole conversation.

But you see, the fact is, I don't personally see vapidity and scorn in authorial tone for the first batch of girl. I see sympathy. I'm not sure how to reconcile our polar opposite readings of the tone. This has been a point of contention since discussion about the film over at the first Matchcut site. For better or for worse, whether understanding or chauvinism, I see Tarantino acknowledging them as the more real, more authentic group of women, trapped in gender fatalism, emotional neediness, and a deep-rooted sense of vulnerability and un-empowerment.
I think this argument would work much better if the first group of girls were given any kind of reality. They might be trapped in gender stereotypes, but I don't see what points out that they are anything more than QT's idea of a "hipper" brand of emotionally needy, vulnerable, unempowered stereotype. The only thing I can think of is that the girls are treated as if they were gorgeous, constantly being ogled by the camera, when they are all somewhat plain (except Jungle Julia, who the other girls are jealous of); but I think that points more to QT's desire for an earthy, gritty tone, and perhaps his taste in woman, than to any meaningful criticism of the stereotypes that the girls represent.

But it's all pretend-sympathy, just a misleading warm-up for the big crash scene that comes later.
Yeah, I don't really see any more sympathy than in a bad teen comedy or above-average slasher movie.

This, however, I can sorta agree with. The tone of the revenge scene is so flippant and comes after so much seemingly unimportant banter that the whole effect feels like a tribute to female camaraderie and sisterhood more than a revenge fantasy. If only said camaraderie had been more compelling.
It was the mixing of the two that I had problems with. Making a tribute to female camaraderie through the trappings of a revenge fantasy seems pretty loathsome to me. Especially when, as you say, the camaraderie is so empty to begin with.

purposely undermining and downplaying the villian's... let's say 'emotional reality', for lack of a better term.
Yeah, I read the ending as female camaraderie overcoming a stereotypical bogeyman: the unstoppable male monster ubiquitous to slasher movies is made ridiculous by QT's chosen brand of "sisters." The villain is allowed no emotional reality. Again, I think that Bosco's argument would work a lot better if, at the end, we were encouraged to actively sympathize with Stuntman Mike. Instead, his whimpering and whining is exaggerated to comical extremes, and, indeed, the whole ending sequence, particularly its editing and music, are played as comedy. The effect is to show the ludicrousness of the "male monster," not to show a real person underneath. But, of course, the girls are just as ludicrous, so the film ends up suggesting that half-baked bogeymen should be replaced by half-baked ideas about sisterhood.

On another note:

Using England, Canada, France and (gasp!) Cuba as models of excellence is foolhardy. Their systems are far more flawed than ours.
How's that?

Melville

11-26-2007, 01:50 PM

I still think that Daniel Davis nailed this one. Much like Kill Bill, it's about the kind of women QT admires, ones who are strong and independent. The women of the first half do nothing but talk about men, their whole lives are guided by their need for men. They cheer when one of them is plastered on a billboard for men to gaze upon. Tarantino took genuine -- and sadistic -- glee in expelling them from the narrative.

The women of the second half are of course different. They are sexy, but they are also tough and self-reliant. When they talk about a man, it is about manipulating him into letting them drive his muscle car.

The problem is that the women who Tarantino admires are presented as just as one-dimensional and irritating as the ones who he dislikes (and/or pities).

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 02:01 PM

The problem is that the women who Tarantino admires are presented as just as one-dimensional and irritating as the ones who he dislikes (and/or pities).

I liked but had some problems with Cyclo... but The Scent of Green Papaya is worth checking out?

Sven

11-26-2007, 02:07 PM

It's a structural expression of the movie's theme of pleasure v. pain. Just like Mike's sado-masochistic drive is expressed within the death proof car itself during the bit with Rose, and is expressed in that first car accident (his pleasure, everyone's pain), the first (horror) half culminates in gruesome hurt, the second (action) half is transformed into thrills and pleasure. I think it works.

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Could you expand on this?

The whole picture is principally about the collision of pleasure and pain. With Stuntman Mike, we have three levels of this collision: within himself (the sadomasochist), within his car (which is a chambered extension of himself, as illustrated in the McGowan sequence), and on the road (the crash with Jungle Julia, et al, illustrates their pain, his pleasure, the crash at the end is the reversal, his pain, their pleasure). And just as this dichotomy is formally illustrated in the text, so is it represented in structural terms, ie, the first half collides with the second half, the first half representing pain, the second half, pleasure. The film itself is sadomasochistic, like Mike, and is thereby represented on multiple levels with this illustration of collision.

I feel that's a pretty sound justification of its structure. A lot of people bat around the term "female empowerment" in regards to Death Proof, but I cannot abide by that rationale. In my estimation, the structure alone offers to comment on the girls' final actions by likening their response directly to the masochism of Mike. They end up kind of evil. It's filmed giddily, but I don't think we're supposed to cheer for the heroines once they start exacting their own violent tendencies. And I think QT makes that pretty clear.

Sven

11-26-2007, 02:08 PM

I liked but had some problems with Cyclo... but The Scent of Green Papaya is worth checking out?

Green Papaya is one of the best movies I've ever seen, for what that's worth.

Sven

11-26-2007, 02:25 PM

And speaking of Bakshi, Raiders, have you seen American Pop yet? If not, why not? and let's get on that, hmm?

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 02:28 PM

The problem is that the women who Tarantino admires are presented as just as one-dimensional and irritating as the ones who he dislikes (and/or pities).

I don't think that their being one-dimensional is a bad thing. They had precisely the amount of dimension required to serve Tarantino's needs. I notice you admire Ordet and Tropical Malady. Now, while I agree that those are better films, I don't find their characters any less one-dimensional. They hit the fews notes they must to fit into a director's carefully worked out design.

On the other hand, I find all of the women in Death Proof to be very interesting. Due to specifics of casting and performance and line reading, I find them all memorable and unique, certainly not irritating. (But, I suppose a reaction to them such as finding them irritating is a subjective one. I certainly can't say it is an incorrect reaction, nor can you say that enjoying their company is incorrect.)

Stuntman Mike is presented in a way that is very emotionally complex, made all the more complex by the casting of Kurt Russell. I'm horrified that this guy I like is doing these terrible things straight out of a Fulci movie to these girls. I don't take un-qualified pleasure in watching the later women kick the shit out of him.

Raiders

11-26-2007, 02:54 PM

And speaking of Bakshi, Raiders, have you seen American Pop yet? If not, why not? and let's get on that, hmm?

It is at the top of my queue, but I haven't actually gotten a Netflix film in a year. I have watched several online so I don't feel bad about my ten bucks a month going to waste (I switched to one-at-a-time when I saw I wasn't using the service much). I've been meaning to return the DVDs so I can start up again with the physical DVDs.

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 03:06 PM

It is at the top of my queue, but I haven't actually gotten a Netflix film in a year. I have watched several online so I don't feel bad about my ten bucks a month going to waste (I switched to one-at-a-time when I saw I wasn't using the service much). I've been meaning to return the DVDs so I can start up again with the physical DVDs.

Aren't you just a little embarrassed to admit this? $120 is more than half what I have to pay for my kids to use the community swimming pool for a year. (And they use it 5 or 6 days a week.) And all you get is a few low quality video streams?

Sycophant

11-26-2007, 03:07 PM

At the same time, ten bucks a month might be about the difference between packing a sandwich and picking something up from the deli once or twice a month.

Raiders

11-26-2007, 03:08 PM

Aren't you just a little embarrassed to admit this? $120 is more than half what I have to pay for my kids to use the community swimming pool for a year. (And they use it 5 or 6 days a week.) And all you get is a few low quality video streams?

Embarrassed? Not really. I'm sure I waste money in more ways than just this one.

Spinal

11-26-2007, 03:09 PM

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 03:12 PM

At the same time, ten bucks a month might be about the difference between packing a sandwich and picking something up from the deli once or twice a month.

Believe me, I know what you're talking about. I eat a lot of peanut butter.

Kurosawa Fan

11-26-2007, 03:14 PM

The most important thing that Sicko does is force Americans to rethink their assumption that just because it is American, it must necessarily be the best. I think it's clear that Moore purposefully portrays the other countries as virtual xanadus, partially for comic effect, but also as a direct challenge to our sometimes stubborn patriotic assumptions.

I completely agree. This is Moore's best work, in my opinion, and is in my top ten as of right now.

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 03:14 PM

Embarrassed? Not really. I'm sure I waste money in more ways than just this one.

Don't we all. I guess I would've just wasted the money by buying a bunch of DVDs or something.

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 03:18 PM

The most important thing that Sicko does is force Americans to rethink their assumption that just because it is American, it must necessarily be the best. I think it's clear that Moore purposefully portrays the other countries as virtual xanadus, partially for comic effect, but also as a direct challenge to our sometimes stubborn patriotic assumptions.

Sort of related to this: I was trapped at Jiffy Lube a while back forced to watch Fox News. It was when every five minutes was devoted to recalls of toys from China. They actually said, "Is it safe to get anything from China?" Basically, screaming "BUY AMERICAN" in my ears.

Spinal

11-26-2007, 03:22 PM

I completely agree. This is Moore's best work, in my opinion, and is in my top ten as of right now.

I noticed that it is Moore's top-rated film on IMDb.

Spinal

11-26-2007, 03:24 PM

Sort of related to this: I was trapped at Jiffy Lube a while back forced to watch Fox News. It was when every five minutes was devoted to recalls of toys from China. They actually said, "Is it safe to get anything from China?" Basically, screaming "BUY AMERICAN" in my ears.

Well, hopefully you were able to direct your concentration to a eight-month old copy of Sports Illustrated like I usually do at Jiffy Lube.

Sycophant

11-26-2007, 03:25 PM

Don't we all. I guess I would've just wasted the money by buying a bunch of DVDs or something.Yeah. With the money I've spent on DVDs in the last five years, I could've put myself through college and sent fasozupow's kids to the pool several times over. And now that I have Netflix, with most of those films a day away should I need them, I wonder if that was even dumber than I thought it was.

Not that I didn't spend over a hundred dollars on more DVDs over the weekend or anything.

Rowland

11-26-2007, 03:46 PM

There was little doubt in my mind that Kiyoshi Kurosawa could capably handle a human drama film, but I was still impressed by License to Live. I think it's pretty damn funny too. Kurosawa's dry, absurdist sense of humor comes through better here than it did in Doppelganger. Seeing this also gave me more hope for his upcoming drama, Tokyo Sonata, because it further illustrates the range of material his sensibilities can be successfully applied to.

Seeing Sho Aikawa pop up as a "geek" was somewhat mind-blowing. Yeah, Kurosawa uses him in interesting ways. They made License to Live, Serpent's Path, and Eyes of the Spider together all in the same year, which is extremely impressive. I wish more filmmakers and actors could pull off a year like that.

Ezee E

11-26-2007, 03:53 PM

Raiders wipes his ass with $100 bills, then throws them into fasozopow's pool and calls it charity.

Sycophant

11-26-2007, 03:54 PM

I think it's pretty damn funny too. Kurosawa's dry sense of humor comes through better here than it did in Doppelganger. Seeing this also gave me more hope in his upcoming drama, Tokyo Sonata, because it further illustrates the range of material his sensibilities can be successfully applied to.Indeed. There were many very, very funny moments in this, played so expertly deadpan. Of course, I'd actually say that I found Doppelganger a better example of Kurosawa's comedic side, but I know that I like that one significantly more than you.

I'm greatly anticipating Tokyo Sonata. This film certainly showcased the flexibility of Kurosawa's idiosyncratic aesthetics and technique, as each shot stated quite clearly that it was in a Kiyoshi Kurosawa film.

Rowland

11-26-2007, 03:57 PM

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 04:03 PM

Raiders wipes his ass with $100 bills, then throws them into fasozopow's pool and calls it charity.

I don't need that image in my head. The pool gets closed for cleaning often enough already because some little brat crapped in the water.

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 04:05 PM

We spent Thanksgiving day on a ranch in South Dakota with my wife's cousin, a real life cowboy. None of the movie stuff. He works very hard year round to make very little. He has no health insurance. He has three kids and they all ride in rodeos. One also plays high school football. He himself has been thrown off a house more times than I can count. One would think surely here is a family that would welcome some form of universal health care.

But no, they are also life long conservatives who keep a Bible and a biography of Ronald Reagan on their nightstand. They home school so they can bring their kids up properly.

My wife and I talked to him a while about Sicko and he bristled at what it was proposing. He came up with two reasons that healthcare for everyone wouldn't work:

"Our taxes would skyrocket."

We replied that sure it would be paid for by increased taxes. But we already pay heavily for health insurance. Getting it through my employers, I've paid from a couple hundred a month out of pocket to over $500. Of course, to buy it flat out instead of getting it through an employer is ridiculous if one is lucky enough to even qualify. Plus, how much less are my employers paying me because they have to fork over money for my health insurance?

Or, the option he takes is paying for their doctor bills out of pocket. Ouch.

"People would abuse the system all over the place. They would run to the doctor for every runny nose."

We said that some people will and some people won't just as with the current system. People who have health insurance go to the doctor all the time for silly little things. But people without insurance don't even have the option of abusing the system. He admitted that they didn't even take their son to the doctor after being knocked unconscious during a football game. He said, "There's nothing that can really be done for a concussion anyway."

He changed the subject pretty quickly after that.

Rowland

11-26-2007, 04:12 PM

Qrazy

11-26-2007, 04:14 PM

I have consulted the spirits and they tell me that his son will likely die of an aneurysm within the year, but they will then strike oil while digging his grave.

Rowland

11-26-2007, 04:32 PM

Sycophant

11-26-2007, 04:36 PM

By the way, was anyone else bothered by the actual animation aesthetic of Meet the Robinsons? There was something in the way they all moved (I think, primarily, that they all moved too much) that made me feel very strange.

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 04:51 PM

I didn't want to join the Death Proof discussion, but I'd just like to say that the discussion came across as almost prudish to me. Tarantino can be in awe of his actresses and their sexuality without "exploiting" them. He has the patience and respect for his characters to let them live and breathe individually, even the ones who he tragically (or in the case of Stuntman Mike, not so tragically) kills off. For all the talk in this thread from both sides, it is remarkably free of pretense.

I've been sitting here entertaining myself by hitting refresh repeatedly and watching you write, retract, and reconsider your final sentence. I agree with both versions so far btw.

I really find your rating for Redacted discouraging. I so wanted it to be good. Not even the guys over at 24 Lies think it is any good -- or a few have been twisting themselves into pretzels trying to defend it. And they are De Palma's biggest die hard supporters.

Oh well, I'll still rent it.

Ezee E

11-26-2007, 04:55 PM

The fact of the matter is that in other first-world countries, any person who feels they need to see a doctor can go to a hospital and seek assistance. As far as I'm concerned, this should be a basic human right, and the fact that America still pays more for health care through taxes than these other countries because of all the bureaucratic red tape, while still failing to cover millions of citizens, is a disgrace. Hell, in the US, even many people with health insurance are scared to see doctors because of how it will affect their coverage. Health care should not be run through capitalist principles. Christian values my ass. Future generations are going to look back at us and see stubborn troglodytes.
It's interesting to read what other countries have implemented, as everything has a + and a -. One of the better examples I could find, which I could see America going to, is in Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Sweden), which has problems that I've mentioned before as well as long wait times.

Here is a list of other countries and their systems:Other Countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care) It's an interesting read, and shows some improvements that America definitely can take, but we would know what we'd be getting into.

balmakboor

11-26-2007, 05:05 PM

It's interesting to read what other countries have implemented, as everything has a + and a -. One of the better examples I could find, which I could see America going to, is in Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Sweden), which has problems that I've mentioned before as well as long wait times.

Here is a list of other countries and their systems:Other Countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care) It's an interesting read, and shows some improvements that America definitely can take, but we would know what we'd be getting into.

I checked your Sweden link just to make sure the situation wasn't different. I watched an episode of Oprah with Michael Moore a while a ago. The long wait time criticism was raised by the person on the show representing the health insurance industry. She was forced to agree with Moore though that long waits are for things where a longer wait is acceptable like a joint replacement in a knee. Emergency conditions are handled just as promptly in Sweden as they are in the U.S.