28 Film Discussion Threads Later

[Rowland]

No. I'm saying that De Palma deepens the schizophrenic experience more than than Howard does.Deepens? C'mon, it's cartoonishly ludicrous armchair psychology that De Palma spends the entire movie subverting.

[Derek]

:|

I'm not sure what's worse - the insult to Bigelow or the notion that any of Michael Bay's projects are "intriguing". :)

[Sven]

Last time I watched Point Break (a few months ago), I was astonished at how much Bigelow and Bay have in common, and yet, how much more successfully she pulls it off.

[Rowland]

Bigelow reminds me more of Cameron than Bay.

[Derek]

Last time I watched Point Break (a few months ago), I was astonished at how much Bigelow and Bay have in common, and yet, how much more successfully she pulls it off.

I haven't seen Point Break in years (I remember liking it), but having recently seen both Strange Days and Near Dark, I really don't see much of a similarity to Bay. There aren't nearly as many close-up's and her camera movements actually have a purpose behind them. I agree with Rowland that she's much closer to Cameron.

[Sven]

You could both be right, seeing as how I'm basing the comparison solely off Point Break (which has unmistakable similarities to Bay). Strange Days, though, I don't see much comparison there. What a great film!

[Raiders]

Point Break is like Bay? In content only, I would say. The style of the film has very few of Bay's qualities (or lack thereof).

[Sven]

Point Break is like Bay? In content only, I would say. The style of the film has very few of Bay's qualities (or lack thereof).

i don't know. There was lots of ogling at beautiful people, lots of fluid camera rotations, some quick editing. Don't get me wrong... it's a fabulous picture and I don't like Bay at all. I just noticed that there were some superficial comparisons.

[Sven]

Deepens? C'mon, it's cartoonishly ludicrous armchair psychology that De Palma spends the entire movie subverting.

It's definitely silly, but by not trying to defend its silliness (ie, going balls-out and rejecting restraint) it becomes a more honest, thereby "deeper", depiction of madness. I'm not calling it deep. More, I'm calling Beautiful Mind shallow.

[Russ]

I really owe Raising Cain a revisit...I'm one of the biggest De Palma fanboys around, and I remember watching this one years ago on cable. Wasn't the most common complaint the amount of belief suspension required? Or was it just way too over the top for most?

That said, it's probably the most De Palma film that De Palma has ever made.

[origami_mustache]

How did you happen to see this?

Dled from karagarga although the DVD didn't include the Coen's, Lynch's, and the second Salles film because they were submitted too late. I was able to get Lynch's separately, but still haven't seen the other two.

[Rowland]

It's definitely silly, but by not trying to defend its silliness (ie, going balls-out and rejecting restraint) it becomes a more honest, thereby "deeper", depiction of madness. I'm not calling it deep. More, I'm calling Beautiful Mind shallow.I'll agree that immediately foregrounding its primary motif is one of its braver (and I suspect more alienating for many viewers) conceits. You could probably argue that the movie's deliriously fractured narrative is itself a metaphor for Lithgow's state of mind.

[Ezee E]

When I'm comparing Bay and Bigelow, it's mostly in the fact that leading up to the movie, I can't help but get excited, only to be let down each and every time. Of course, there are exceptions. Such as Strange Days for Bigelow, and The Rock and a few sequences in the Bad Boys flicks.

Paprika, though. One bizarro movie. Didn't love it like all you guys, but it is admirable for its inventiveness in both the story and its execution in animation. I'm not an anime guy at all either.

[lovejuice]

only lord know how much more pearl harbour will be if michael bay had sex with james cameron once in a while.

[Raiders]

only lord know how much more pearl harbour will be if michael bay had sex with james cameron once in a while.

You mean like replacing Kate Beckinsale with Brad Pitt?

[Rowland]

Paprika, though. One bizarro movie. Didn't love it like all you guys, but it is admirable for its inventiveness in both the story and its execution in animation. I'm not an anime guy at all either.I didn't love it either, but I was enthralled and inspired by it. I'm not too fond of the ending, mostly.

If you haven't, you should see Kon's Millennium Actress. It's my favorite movie of his, as it has the most pervasive and persuasive human element amidst all of its inventiveness.

[Watashi]

Any film that features singing marching refridgerators is a great film to me.

[Melville]

Any film that features singing marching refridgerators is a great film to me.
Damn straight. Especially when their song is so awesome.

[jesse]

Failed to even give me the willies. Why should it have given you the willies? It's not a horror film.

[Russ]

I've only seen the trailer for Paprika and remember thinking how ugly the animation looked. I very much want to see the film and hope my initial impression is dead wrong.

[jesse]

Pasolini tribute. Which of these (http://www.filmlinc.com/wrt/onsale/pasolini/program.html)should I prioritize? Oh damn, lucky you--I've just decided to make Pasolini a top priority, so I'd personally try to see as many as possible.

I was going to pimp Edipo Re more, but since it's not playing go for Teorema. I'd maybe consider Salo under such circumstances, but I don't know...

[jesse]

I actually watched Hitman yesterday. It reminded me why I don't bother with such films.

But it was innocuous enough, I guess. I hope Michael Offei gets more roles in the future.

[Spinal]

I've only seen the trailer for Paprika and remember thinking how ugly the animation looked.

I had to read this twice to make sure I was reading it right.

[D_Davis]

I've only seen the trailer for Paprika and remember thinking how ugly the animation looked. I very much want to see the film and hope my initial impression is dead wrong.

I agree. I am not a fan of the direction Madhouse has gone with a lot of their current theatrical work, especially on Kon's films. The animation itself is good, that is, it is fluid and well animated, but I find their character designs to be quite dull, and the over all art direction to be just kind of okay. I think their best theatrical work was done in Metropolis.

Around these parts, I think I am, perhaps, the least thrilled with Kon's films.

[Qrazy]

I've never been the least bit confused by the storytelling in Temple of Doom, if that's what you mean.

I meant more, why Spielberg made many of the choices he made on the film. He clearly made the choices intentionally, but that doesn't mean they were necessarily good choices. I'm saying yeah, perhaps he did take a go for broke approach, but for many of us this approach didn't work at all.

[Qrazy]

And I think the fact that it's not Schizophrenia for Dummies, ala A Beautiful Mind, magnifies my appreciation. But mostly, I love it for its remarkable imagination and expression and thrills and technique.

I'd say A Beautiful Mind has more issues with it's Math for Dummies approach than with a weak perspective on schizophrenia.

[Melville]

I agree. I am not a fan of the direction Madhouse has gone with a lot of their current theatrical work, especially on Kon's films. The animation itself is good, that is, it is fluid and well animated, but I find their character designs to be quite dull, and the over all art direction to be just kind of okay. I think their best theatrical work was done in Metropolis.

Around these parts, I think I am, perhaps, the least thrilled with Kon's films.
I agree that Metropolis is more visually interesting than Paprika. But Paprika wins out in the dancing refrigerators department.

[Melville]

I'd say A Beautiful Mind has more issues with it's Math for Dummies approach than with a weak perspective on schizophrenia.
When both are so awful, it becomes somewhat meaningless to say which one is worse.

[Spinal]

To each his own, I guess. I thought Paprika was glorious. But mostly I like Kon's films for the scripts.

[Qrazy]

When both are so awful, it becomes somewhat meaningless to say which one is worse.

Touche.

[Qrazy]

I agree. I am not a fan of the direction Madhouse has gone with a lot of their current theatrical work, especially on Kon's films. The animation itself is good, that is, it is fluid and well animated, but I find their character designs to be quite dull, and the over all art direction to be just kind of okay. I think their best theatrical work was done in Metropolis.

Around these parts, I think I am, perhaps, the least thrilled with Kon's films.

I agree that Metropolis is beautiful but I hope you're not saying the character design is better in Metropolis because imho that was one of the weakest points about the film. Paprika has much, much, much better character designs.

[megladon8]

I actually watched Hitman yesterday. It reminded me why I don't bother with such films.

But it was innocuous enough, I guess. I hope Michael Offei gets more roles in the future.


This is quite possibly one of the worst movies I have ever seen.

Some well-shot scenes were completely cancelled out by everything else - which was all absolutely horrid.

I honestly don't know how the hell that movie wa released to the public, let alone in theatres.

[Rowland]

I honestly don't know how the hell that movie wa released to the public, let alone in theatres.I don't know, it can't be much more insufferable than Transformers, and that was not only released, but embraced by the public.

[megladon8]

I don't know, it can't be much more insufferable than Transformers, and that was not only released, but embraced by the public.


Trust me.

It makes Transformers look like Seven Samurai.

Hitman is edited poorly, with countless instances of voices saying different things than the mouths. It's boring. It's beyond stupid. It's got terrible visual effects. The dialogue sounds like it was both written and proofread by someone for whom English is a second language. It makes zero sense. The acting on all fronts - especially Dougray Scott, in a shudder-worthy performance - is absolutely horrid.

I at least found a couple of the action sequences in Transformers to be exciting, namely the beginning siege on the military base.

Hitman has absolutely nothing going for it, except occasionally pretty cinematography.

[D_Davis]

I agree that Metropolis is beautiful but I hope you're not saying the character design is better in Metropolis because imho that was one of the weakest points about the film. Paprika has much, much, much better character designs.

I totally disagree. I found the characters in Paprika to be very bland, while in Metropolis I love the way they perfectly captured the look and feel of Tezuka's original drawings. Tezuka was a master at character design, and the film captures this quality very well.

[Rowland]

I like Paprika a lot, but I'll agree that its animation style is pretty generic. While I didn't care for Tekkonkinkreet much, I'll at least acknowledge that its animation style was unique (and pretty stunning in its production values).

[Sven]

I totally disagree. I found the characters in Paprika to be very bland, while in Metropolis I love the way they perfectly captured the look and feel of Tezuka's original drawings. Tezuka was a master at character design, and the film captures this quality very well.

Hmmmm... I like Tezuka, mostly, but to me, all his characters look like they're cut from the same cloth. Not much variety. I'd hardly call him a master of character design. But I will concede that Metropolis both captures his designs exquisitely and that they're more interesting than Kon's. Although I like Kon's films more than Metropolis, which I also like, just not as much.

Edited for comprehension

[Winston*]

It seems to me that Cronenberg is settling into a mainstream phase, in which he is craftily infusing more straightforward projects with his sensibilities. A History of Violence and Eastern Promises are both expertly crafted from a sheer filmmaking perspective too, which obviously helps. Somehow, this seems fitting after Spider, which is probably the least audience-friendly movie of his recent career.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Spider is the least audience-friendly film of his last 3 movies so it's fitting that the following two are more audience friendly?

[Mysterious Dude]

I haven't seen Paprika, but I really like the retro look of the characters in Metropolis.

[Sven]

I watched The Lady Eve finally.

It was funny.

Henry Fonda... the bomb.

[Philosophe_rouge]

I watched The Lady Eve finally.

It was funny.

Henry Fonda... the bomb.
WOOT! Although I desperately owe this a rewatch, saw it a couple of years ago. I remember it being a very sexy movie... Stanwyck is awesome.

[jesse]

Hitman is edited poorly, with countless instances of voices saying different things than the mouths. It's boring. It's beyond stupid. It's got terrible visual effects. The dialogue sounds like it was both written and proofread by someone for whom English is a second language. It makes zero sense. The acting on all fronts - especially Dougray Scott, in a shudder-worthy performance - is absolutely horrid. Hmmm... I guess it shows how rarely I do watch these types of films, because it didn't strike me as being much different than the others I'd seen. I did find it quite curious that in more than several scenes it seemed like the voices had been dubbed. I guess I didn't expect much from the acting or the script either... it's based on a video game for gods sake. Something about Michael Offei interested me though (he played Jenkins).

Actually, the best part of the film were two hecklers who sat in the row behind me. Every time there was any nudity one would yell out "holla!" The best was when the girl got tranqualized and the guy was like "nooooo!!!"

Sometimes annoying people can make a bad film so much better (the same thing happened for me during Rent).

[jesse]

Henry Fonda... the bomb. Fonda is probably my least favorite actor. Of all time.

(Yeah, yeah, bring on the negative rep.)

[Sven]

Fonda is probably my least favorite actor. Of all time.

(Yeah, yeah, bring on the negative rep.)

:eek:

I'm just gonna back away... slowly...

[Qrazy]

Hmmm... I guess it shows how rarely I do watch these types of films, because it didn't strike me as being much different than the others I'd seen. I did find it quite curious that in more than several scenes it seemed like the voices had been dubbed. I guess I didn't expect much from the acting or the script either... it's based on a video game for gods sake. Something about Michael Offei interested me though (he played Jenkins).

Actually, the best part of the film were two hecklers who sat in the row behind me. Every time there was any nudity one would yell out "holla!" The best was when the girl got tranqualized and the guy was like "nooooo!!!"

Sometimes annoying people can make a bad film so much better (the same thing happened for me during Rent).

Hell, sometimes they can make a decent film amazing. I watched Top Hat at an outdoor screening with a friend, and a belligerently drunk homeless man was providing a running director's commentary track. "Ahhh Freddy boy, Ahh! Here's to you Freddd *hic*, you show 'em. You'm show those sunsabitches what it's all about *hic* Fucking mother Fuck Shit!~"

[Qrazy]

Fonda is probably my least favorite actor. Of all time.

(Yeah, yeah, bring on the negative rep.)

Dude... Once upon a Time in the West, 12 Angry Men... My Darling Clementine?

[Philosophe_rouge]

Fonda is probably my least favorite actor. Of all time.

(Yeah, yeah, bring on the negative rep.)
That's just weird.

[Mr. Valentine]

I don't know, it can't be much more insufferable than Transformers, and that was not only released, but embraced by the public.


im with you. i won't see Hitman until dvd but there is no way it could possibly be a worse movie than Transformers.

[jesse]

Dude... Once upon a Time in the West, 12 Angry Men... My Darling Clementine? Well, it doesn't help that he stars in one of the last favorite films of all time, The Grapes of Wrath. I think 12 Angry Men is probably one of the most overrated films of all time, and I didn't care for Once Upon a Time, but I chalk that up to my general indifference to Westerns...

I think that his screen persona relies so much on the "common man" schtick that I find he usually lacks complexity and depth (and interest). And I really, really dislike his voice. (I don't care much for Jimmy Stewart for the same reasons, though Stewart has some really, dark conflicted performances that saves him.)

Admittedly, I do like two films that Ford stars in--The Wrong Man and You Only Live Once--as well as a film like Jezebel where his character is kinda beside the point.

[MacGuffin]

How is Pandora's Box?

[Philosophe_rouge]

How is Pandora's Box?
One of my all time favourite films. Louise Brooks is one of the greatest screen presences, and Pabst isn't too bad himself. It's all about Lulu, and I love how the direction sorta peels away filters slowly to reveal the character more clearly, although she is something of a static character (not a bad thing). The final twenty minutes are brilliant.

[MacGuffin]

One of my all time favourite films. Louise Brooks is one of the greatest screen presences, and Pabst isn't too bad himself. It's all about Lulu, and I love how the direction sorta peels away filters slowly to reveal the character more clearly, although she is something of a static character (not a bad thing). The final twenty minutes are brilliant.

Glad to know; Netflix is sending it to me.

Also, I did like the Indie Sex series.

[Philosophe_rouge]

Glad to know; Netflix is sending it to me.

Also, I did like the Indie Sex series.
I've only seen this one episode so far, unfortunately the same week I had seen two films on homosexuality in Hollywood so much of it felt like a rehash. I'll probably get around checking out the other episodes, do you have a favourite? Or does it not really matter?

[Boner M]

Fonda is like the good version of Gary Cooper, I find.

[MacGuffin]

I've only seen this one episode so far, unfortunately the same week I had seen two films on homosexuality in Hollywood so much of it felt like a rehash. I'll probably get around checking out the other episodes, do you have a favourite? Or does it not really matter?

While I watched them all in three or four nights on IFC, they all still kind of blended together for me. I don't even remember how many episodes there were, to be honest with you. I thought the historical look at the evolution of sexuality in cinema was fascinating though, and that was shown in the first episode, if I recall correctly.

[Qrazy]

Well, it doesn't help that he stars in one of the last favorite films of all time, The Grapes of Wrath. I think 12 Angry Men is probably one of the most overrated films of all time, and I didn't care for Once Upon a Time, but I chalk that up to my general indifference to Westerns...

I think that his screen persona relies so much on the "common man" schtick that I find he usually lacks complexity and depth (and interest). And I really, really dislike his voice. (I don't care much for Jimmy Stewart for the same reasons, though Stewart has some really, dark conflicted performances that saves him.)

Admittedly, I do like two films that Ford stars in--The Wrong Man and You Only Live Once--as well as a film like Jezebel where his character is kinda beside the point.

12 Angry Men! The Passion! The drama!

[Philosophe_rouge]

While I watched them all in three or four nights on IFC, they all still kind of blended together for me. I don't even remember how many episodes there were, to be honest with you. I thought the historical look at the evolution of sexuality in cinema was fascinating though, and that was shown in the first episode, if I recall correctly.
Yea, I think that's the episode I saw. Taboos looks interesting though. I'm just browsing their website and came across Dita Von Teese's list of 10 Tentalising films,

http://www.ifc.com/static/sections/indiesex/top10.html

It's a pretty cool list.

[MacGuffin]

Yea, I think that's the episode I saw. Taboos looks interesting though. I'm just browsing their website and came across Dita Von Teese's list of 10 Tentalising films,

http://www.ifc.com/static/sections/indiesex/top10.html

It's a pretty cool list.

John Waters talks too in the series sometime, I think. However, I could be thinking of This Film Is Not Yet Rated, which was hilarious, but kind of poorly constructed.

[Philosophe_rouge]

John Waters talks too in the series sometime, I think.
If he doesn't, shame on them! He doesn't seem to be listed on IMDB though, and I don't remember him. I hope I'm very wrong though.

[MacGuffin]

If he doesn't, shame on them! He doesn't seem to be listed on IMDB though, and I don't remember him. I hope I'm very wrong though.

It seems I was mistaken, as he isn't listed in the interviewees on the IFC website.

[MadMan]

Fonda is probably my least favorite actor. Of all time.

(Yeah, yeah, bring on the negative rep.)Frank>you :P


Bigelow's masterpiece is Strange Days. Point Break is a close second. She's a real solid director, but The Weight of Water was terrible.I love Point Break. The way the guys rob the banks is pure brilliance what with the wearing of masks featuring the faces of ex-presidents. Plus its cheesy brilliance is endlessly entertaining and the action sequences rock.


Gremlins 2I really need to revisit that flick as its been 3 years since I last saw it. Plus I decided to read some of the quotes on IMDB.com and a lot of them (especially from the Brain Gremlin, who says the line found in Scar's sig) are pretty hilarious.

[Grouchy]

I think Temple of Doom is at least as good as Raiders and better than Last Crusade. And I find it the most rewatchable of all three movies, maybe because it's so high on action running on a very thin plot. Kinda like the early Tintin adventures, the ones where nothing made much sense and the constant cliffhangers pulled the story forward. I have no problem with the Chinese stereotyping, because it's not blatantly offensive and it's in fact pulled verbatim from the early pulps it's trying to reference. If we were to split hairs on stuff like that, Indy Jones himself is offensive, since he's the archeology version of white supremacy hunter Allan Quatermain.


My feelings toward anime kinda started with a bad experience. About 11 years ago, a teenage friend wanted me to watch his favorite film with him, Akira. Wow! Was I ever bored into a stupor. I don't know why exactly. The description on paper sounded like something I'd really like.
I recommend trying Akira again with a fresh perspective. It's fucking brilliance. TETSUOOOOOOOOOOO!

I've seen only two Kon films. Paprika, which I found very intelligent and imaginative, and Perfect Blue, which I thought pretty much sucked as a thriller and as any sort of meta-narrative they were trying to pull with the filmmaking theme.

[Qrazy]

I think Temple of Doom is at least as good as Raiders and better than Last Crusade. And I find it the most rewatchable of all three movies, maybe because it's so high on action running on a very thin plot. Kinda like the early Tintin adventures, the ones where nothing made much sense and the constant cliffhangers pulled the story forward. I have no problem with the Chinese stereotyping, because it's not blatantly offensive and it's in fact pulled verbatim from the early pulps it's trying to reference. If we were to split hairs on stuff like that, Indy Jones himself is offensive, since he's the archeology version of white supremacy hunter Allan Quatermain.


I recommend trying Akira again with a fresh perspective. It's fucking brilliance. TETSUOOOOOOOOOOO!

I've seen only two Kon films. Paprika, which I found very intelligent and imaginative, and Perfect Blue, which I thought pretty much sucked as a thriller and as any sort of meta-narrative they were trying to pull with the filmmaking theme.

I also loathe Perfect Blue, mostly for the tone. It makes me nauseous. Tokyo Godfathers is quality.

[megladon8]

im with you. i won't see Hitman until dvd but there is no way it could possibly be a worse movie than Transformers.


All I can say is that you couldn't possibly be more wrong. :P

And I really am not a Transformers fan at all.

[Derek]

Hell, sometimes they can make a decent film amazing. I watched Top Hat at an outdoor screening with a friend, and a belligerently drunk homeless man was providing a running director's commentary track. "Ahhh Freddy boy, Ahh! Here's to you Freddd *hic*, you show 'em. You'm show those sunsabitches what it's all about *hic* Fucking mother Fuck Shit!~"

Except Top Hat is an amazing film on its own...

[number8]

Watched two movies today. 8's one word reviews of the day:


There Will Be Blood - Magnifiriffic.

Juno - Uuuugh.

[Grouchy]

I also loathe Perfect Blue, mostly for the tone. It makes me nauseous. Tokyo Godfathers is quality.
Oh, I'd forgotten Tokyo Godfathers was his, even though you guys were discussing it. That one's good. I liked the balance between heavy drama and slapstick, and the fact that it was so damn unpredictable. You gotta suspend your disbelief big time, but it's worth it.

[Qrazy]

Except Top Hat is an amazing film on its own...

Yeah, it's OK. There's a lot of sound and fury.

[lovejuice]

Around these parts, I think I am, perhaps, the least thrilled with Kon's films.

you and me. in fact, paprika is kon's only movies that i like. granted i have yet seen perfect blue.

[Derek]

Juno - Uuuugh.

Iiiindeed. The only good thing I can say about it is that Ellen Page isn't quite as awful as she was in Hard Candy.

[Melville]

Dude... Once upon a Time in the West, 12 Angry Men... My Darling Clementine?
I actually like Fonda, but I dislike all those films. How's that for inviting negative rep?


Well, it doesn't help that he stars in one of the last favorite films of all time, The Grapes of Wrath. I think 12 Angry Men is probably one of the most overrated films of all time, and I didn't care for Once Upon a Time, but I chalk that up to my general indifference to Westerns...
Why the hate for The Grapes of Wrath?


I think that his screen persona relies so much on the "common man" schtick that I find he usually lacks complexity and depth (and interest). And I really, really dislike his voice. (I don't care much for Jimmy Stewart for the same reasons, though Stewart has some really, dark conflicted performances that saves him.)
I don't know if Fonda really relies on the "common man" schtick in most of his roles (although I guess he does in The Lady Eve); it seems more like the "morally upstanding man" schtick. And Jimmy Stewart is so great because he always suggests an immanent darkness within his schtick.


How is Pandora's Box?
Great, although it could use more of Louise Brooks' dancing.

[lovejuice]

I actually like Fonda, but I dislike all those films. How's that for inviting negative rep?


what you don't like about 12 angry men? just asking, since i'm somewhat a fan of lumet's.

[Boner M]

Weekend:

Martha
The Power of Kangwon Province
Linda Linda Linda
The Tracey Fragments

[Qrazy]

I actually like Fonda, but I dislike all those films. How's that for inviting negative rep?


Why the hate for The Grapes of Wrath?


I don't know if Fonda really relies on the "common man" schtick in most of his roles (although I guess he does in The Lady Eve); it seems more like the "morally upstanding man" schtick. And Jimmy Stewart is so great because he always suggests an immanent darkness within his schtick.


Great, although it could use more of Louise Brooks' dancing.

Clementine is pretty middling but the other two are fantastic. *shakes head*

[Melville]

what you don't like about 12 angry men? just asking, since i'm somewhat a fan of lumet's.
I thought it required a lot more ambiguity. The case was just too simple, and all the non-Ford characters were just too stupid, for the film to really make any meaningful points about the justice system. And Fonda's schtick was kind of irritating.

[Melville]

Clementine is pretty middling but the other two are fantastic. *shakes head*
I was actually surprised how much I disliked Once Upon a Time... I love The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, but I couldn't wait for Once Upon a Time... to end.

[Qrazy]

On an unrelated note... after watching Naked Island and Onibaba I now want to get my hands on as much Shindo as possible. I hear Kuroneko is good.

[lovejuice]

I thought it required a lot more ambiguity. The case was just too simple, and all the non-Ford characters were just too stupid, for the film to really make any meaningful points about the justice system. And Fonda's schtick was kind of irritating.

'till these days i really love its mathematical structure. thematically the script might not be as strong, but what's a near perfect way to tell the story. it's one of those scripts i dare people to cut one sentence or switch lines.

[Watashi]

A lot of wrong opinions on these last few pages.

[Qrazy]

I thought it required a lot more ambiguity. The case was just too simple, and all the non-Ford characters were just too stupid, for the film to really make any meaningful points about the justice system. And Fonda's schtick was kind of irritating.

I'd say the average American is actually probably stupider than the majority of the other jurors presented in the film. I'd say it's a fairly reasonable cross section of the American public of the time, also the truth of the case remains ambiguous even after the verdict is passed down.

[number8]

Iiiindeed. The only good thing I can say about it is that Ellen Page isn't quite as awful as she was in Hard Candy.

Yeah, maybe, but you know what? At least in Hard Candy she was deliberately being a skank, then a crazy bitch. Here, she's supposed to be this sassy, likable witty chick, and she's just really annoying. Every sarcastic remark she makes is just awful, and it kills the entire movie. So even your claim is debatable.

[Derek]

So even your claim is debatable.

It's certainly not a claim I'd bother to defend. It's just that from Hard Candy, there was nowhere to go but up IMO. :)

In other news, I just finished Overnight and Troy Duffy is an even bigger douchebag than I imagined. The atrocity that is Boondock Saints makes a lot more sense now b/c only a douchebag of that magnitude could have conceived it.

[Duncan]

I don't think Henry Fonda's acting skills have anything to do with how much I like the films he has been in.

The Grapes of Wrath was terribly disappointing.
Twelve Angry Men is one of the most overrated films ever.
Once Upon a Time in the West is incredible.
My Darling Clementine is criminally underrated. One of the very best westerns.

I must have seen a few others. James Stewart, on the other hand, just bothers me.

[Winston*]

In other news, I just finished Overnight and Troy Duffy is an even bigger douchebag than I imagined. The atrocity that is Boondock Saints makes a lot more sense now b/c only a douchebag of that magnitude could have conceived it.
I think the only interesting thing about this film is how the filmmakers edit it to make themselves as much of put-upon victims as possible.

[Derek]

I think the only interesting thing about this film is how the filmmakers edit it to make themselves as much of put-upon victims as possible.

I don't really see it that way since Duffy was basically an asshole to everyone. The documentary's biggest failure is that it doesn't competently show how his relationship with Miramax disintegrated. Otherwise, I found it entertaining for the pure poetic justice of Duffy ending up right where he started.

[Boner M]

I Don't Want to Sleep Alone (Tsai, 2007) 5.5
:eek: :cry:

[Scar]

A lot of wrong opinions on these last few pages.

Yeah, I know. Not liking Fonda is one thing, but hating Transformers? Come on!

:lol:

[Raiders]

I like Henry Fonda, and Jimmy Stewart is my favorite actor.

[Boner M]

Weekend:

Martha
The Power of Kangwon Province
Linda Linda Linda
The Tracey Fragments
Adding Shaolin Soccer to the lineup.

[Melville]

James Stewart, on the other hand, just bothers me.
:confused:

I like Henry Fonda, and Jimmy Stewart is my favorite actor.
:pritch:

[Melville]

'till these days i really love its mathematical structure. thematically the script might not be as strong, but what's a near perfect way to tell the story. it's one of those scripts i dare people to cut one sentence or switch lines.
The structure of the script is definitely good, and I really like the general idea. I remember the dialogue being a bit ham-fisted though.


I'd say the average American is actually probably stupider than the majority of the other jurors presented in the film. I'd say it's a fairly reasonable cross section of the American public of the time, also the truth of the case remains ambiguous even after the verdict is passed down.
I don't know. It seemed like Fonda's version of the case was meant to be much more accurate than all the others, and that everybody else was just going on ignorance. The whole thing seemed too much about one upright guy struggling for justice, rather than being about the inherent ambiguities involved in a jury of peers. Maybe I just wanted the movie to deal with different themes, or to deal more subtly with its chosen themes and characters.

[Mr. Valentine]

so it looks like Juno is gonna become this years critically loved movie that's cool to hate. last year was Little Miss Sunshine and then Crash the year before.

[balmakboor]

Fonda is probably my least favorite actor. Of all time.

(Yeah, yeah, bring on the negative rep.)

I was recently in a discussion group that was asked, "What actor would you most like to be? And what actor would you most like to marry?" I answered Henry Fonda and that I was tossed between Jody Foster and Diane Lane. I love Fonda's integrity and quiet intensity. I also think he starred in Hitchcock's most underappreciated film, The Wrong Man.

[Dillard]

so it looks like Juno is gonna become this years critically loved movie that's cool to hate. last year was Little Miss Sunshine and then Crash the year before.I wouldn't call Crash critically-loved. It had many detractors (A.O. Scott, David Ansen, and David Edelstein being just a few).

[Raiders]

I also think he starred in Hitchcock's most underappreciated film, The Wrong Man.

Rep for you.

[Raiders]

Weekend:

I'm Not There
Margot at the Wedding
The Life of Reilly
Loft

[EvilShoe]

Weekend:
Munich (2nd viewing)
Days of Heaven (1st viewing)

[baby doll]

Weekend:

Les Amants du Pont-Neuf (Leos Carax)
Day Night Day Night (Julia Loktev)
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (Don Siegel)
The Ninth Gate (Roman Polanski)

[balmakboor]

My weekend is now:

Paprika
... And the Pursuit of Happiness

Maybe one more to still be added.

[Spinal]

I hear Kuroneko is good.

It is. (http://filmepidemic.blogspot.com/search?q=kuroneko)

[Kurosawa Fan]

My theater finally got No Country for Old Men!

:pritch:

So, yeah... hopefully that's what I'll be watching this weekend.

[Spinal]

My theater finally got No Country for Old Men!

:pritch:

So, yeah... hopefully that's what I'll be watching this weekend.

Hopefully, you will not call it No Country For Old Meh.

[Raiders]

Hopefully, you will not call it No Country For Old Meh.

You've been waiting for him to post that just so you could use that joke, haven't you?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Hopefully, you will not call it No Country For Old Meh.

This seems unlikely, however I do run the chance of calling my other weekend viewing The Cemeh Garden.

[Raiders]

We could make a whole KF series!

I'll start:

The Aparmehnt

[Spinal]

This seems unlikely, however I do run the chance of calling my other weekend viewing The Cemeh Garden.

So did you end up liking the book?

[Spinal]

We could make a whole KF series!

I'll start:

The Aparmehnt

Mr. Mehgorium's Wonder Emporium

[lovejuice]

I don't know. It seemed like Fonda's version of the case was meant to be much more accurate than all the others, and that everybody else was just going on ignorance. The whole thing seemed too much about one upright guy struggling for justice, rather than being about the inherent ambiguities involved in a jury of peers.

to be honest with you, i kinda get the same vibe during one of the lesser stage production of 12 angry men. yet the first time i watched lumet's version, i was so enthralled. it seems obvious to me the kid was screwed, and there was no chance he couldn't be that murderer. for example, that unique-looking knife, the two witnesses. in fact the case against him was so strong that i used to fancy an alternative ending in which the kid was actually related to fonda, and they were actually in on it. :lol::P

[Kurosawa Fan]

So did you end up liking the book?

Yes. Absolutely. It's hard to digest something like that. I believe you described it as creepy, which is a pretty good word to use.

[Kurosawa Fan]

We could make a whole KF series!

I'll start:

The Aparmehnt

My Meh-bor Totoro
Arsmehnic and Old Lace
Aguirre, the Wrath of Meh (it doesn't work, but it needed to be on there)

The possibilities are endless. Prepare yourselves, Match Cut.

[Sycophant]

The possibilities are endless. Prepare yourselves, Match Cut.
Mehtch Cut.

[Raiders]

Mehtch Cut.

The only thing saving you is your rating for Angels With Dirty Faces.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Mehtch Cut.

Yeah, this is blasphemous. Atone. Immediately.

[Sycophant]

Yeah, this is blasphemous. Atone. Immediately....I'll move Torque to the top of my queue?

[Scar]

...I'll move Torque to the top of my queue?

You have chosen......wisely.

[Sycophant]

You know I love you guys. And this place. I was just jokin', y'know, just playin' along...


My Meh-bor Totoro This was sincere, wasn't it? :|

[Kurosawa Fan]

This was sincere, wasn't it? :|

I'm afraid so.

[Rowland]

You know I love you guys. And this place. I was just jokin', y'know, just playin' along...So you aren't bumping Torque up your queue, then? :sad:

[Raiders]

I'm afraid so.

Mehd Beard

[Watashi]

The Passion of Joan of Meh

[number8]

KF, is your favorite actress Meh Ryan?

[Watashi]

Weekend:

I'm Not There

That is all.

Hopefully, when my new laptop is here, I can restart Netflix. I'm waaay behind on my movie-watching.

[Sycophant]

So you aren't bumping Torque up your queue, then? :sad:Oh, no. Even if the intent wasn't malicious, the sin was still there. I've made my penance and should be receiving Torque on Monday or Tuesday.

[Sycophant]

Oh! The Nightmeh Before Christmeh!

[Rowland]

Oh, no. Even if the intent wasn't malicious, the sin was still there. I've made my penance and should be receiving Torque on Monday or Tuesday.Now that's what I like to read. Approach it the same way you did DOA, and you should at least get some enjoyment out of it.

[Scar]

Now that's what I like to read. Approach it the same way you did DOA, and you should at least get some enjoyment out of it.

I wonder how much negative rep we'll be getting for this movie recommendation?

:lol:

[Philosophe_rouge]

Weekend
I'm not There (hopefully... not too much time)
The Small Back Room
Three Times
Before Night Falls

[Kurosawa Fan]

Mehd Beard




The Passion of Joan of Meh

Reported.

[Sycophant]

Weekend:

Kantoku Banzai!
No Country for Old Men
Serpent's Path
Eyes of the Spider
No Direction Home
Colma: The Musical
Horsefeathers
I'm Not There

There's also a possibility that I can talk some friends into watching Funky Forest: The First Contact with me. I'm positively addicted to this film. I've watched "Takefumi's Dream" at least four times.

[Ezee E]

Watched two movies today. 8's one word reviews of the day:


There Will Be Blood - Magnifiriffic.

Juno - Uuuugh.
bastard

[Ezee E]

My meh-bor Totoro indeed.

[Spinal]

If you're going to use the obnoxious 'meh' word, it should at least be a decent pun. The Passion of Joan of Meh doesn't work at all.

[Sycophant]

If you're going to use the obnoxious 'meh' word, it should at least be a decent pun. The Passion of Joan of Meh doesn't work at all.
*nod*

You could at least go Meh Passion of Joan of Arc or maybe The Passmeh of Joan of Arc.

[Watashi]

If you're going to use the obnoxious 'meh' word, it should at least be a decent pun. The Passion of Joan of Meh doesn't work at all.

Amehdeus

[Spinal]

Amehdeus

Much better.

[Yxklyx]

Weekend:

Time
Charulata
Gas Food Lodging

[Ivan Drago]

So, a couple weeks removed from watching the horrible Above The Law (Steven Seagal's film debut) in my CP 101 class, today we're watching The Player. As an Altman newbie, color me excited.

[Dillard]

You knew it was coming:

No Country For Old Meh

[Ezee E]

Weekend:
The Mist (I found a theater)
Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium
Full Metal Jacket on Blu-Ray
I Know Who Killed Me
All That Jazz (or one of the many that is on a short wait)

[dreamdead]

Weekend:

Gozu
Children of Paradise (seriously, I will watch this. Ignore the fact that I've had it for two months. I'm becoming as bad as Raiders at this Netflix thing)

[Kurosawa Fan]

Here's one I think we can all get behind:

Star Wars Mehpisode One: The Phantom Mehnace

[Sycophant]

Here's one I think we can all get behind:

Star Wars Mehpisode One: The Phantom MehnaceMore or less. But "meh" doesn't seem quite strong enough.

[Watashi]

Except for that the film wasn't meh.

It was crap.

[balmakboor]

My Meh-bor Totoro

My daughter just ordered me to give you 99 negative reps.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Except for that the film wasn't meh.

It was crap.

I know, but it works so well. It was irresistible.


My daughter just ordered me to give you 99 negative reps.

I can't fault her for feeling that way. She's the demographic.

I'm not.

[Watashi]

My daughter just ordered me to give you 99 negative reps.
Do it! Do it!

[Raiders]

I am fasozupow's daughter, and I have come to do the daughter's work...

[Kurosawa Fan]

I am fasozupow's daughter, and I have come to do the daughter's work...

*looks at his rep power*

We're all friend here, right? Right guys? Guys?

*backs slowly out of thread*

[Scar]

I am fasozupow's daughter, and I have come to do the daughter's work...

:eek:

*slowly reaches for 1911*

[Dillard]

I am fasozupow's daughter, and I have come to do the daughter's work...Sweet Jesus.

[Sycophant]

Man. Are we ever up to some shenanigans today!

[dreamdead]

Hey, and how 'bout that Bergman fella. Talk about Personeh.

[Rowland]

Despite some unfortunate Disney trappings and an ending that indulges in a cliché I really hate, Bridge to Terabithia proves to be a thoughtful piece that parses assorted themes (ranging from personal identity to faith and death) in a reasonably nuanced and mature manner. This is probably a clichéd connection to make, but it really is like Pan's Labyrinth for adolescents, without insulting older viewers in the process, and it's just about as deep too in its own way. Good stuff, and not at all what I was expecting from the insultingly misleading advertising it was saddled with. Parents should have more movies like this to watch with their kids.

[MadMan]

*looks at his rep power*

We're all friend here, right? Right guys? Guys?

*backs slowly out of thread*Raiders is like the US right now. Only a USA that has all the nukes in the world. Yikes. I'm scared now :eek:

*Builds a bunker and hides in it*

Weekend viewings:

*Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang(2005)
*True Romance(1993)
*Maybe a video store rental or two
*The UNI playoff game vs. Delaware on Saturday
*What's left of college football
*Packers-Cowboys-aka MadMan gets drunk at a sports bar
*Chiefs-Chargers-aka MadMan throws something at the TV and utters curse words

That's about it....

[origami_mustache]

*Chiefs-Chargers-aka MadMan throws something at the TV and utters curse words

That's about it....

Chiefs fan?

[Boner M]

Mehtch-cut.

[Winston*]

Mehtch-cut.
Good one! (http://match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=10951&postcount=1861)

[Boner M]

Good one! (http://match-cut.org/showpost.php?p=10951&postcount=1861)
My version has the hyphen, which makes it better.

[Duncan]

Weekend:

Mouchette
Au Hasard Balthazar

Decided to explore Bresson more. I'll probably see something in theaters as well.

[soitgoes...]

I have the following available for this weekend:
Paprika
Red Road
Paradise Lost: Child Murders at Robin Hood
Billy Liar
Terminal Station
La Marseillaise

[MadMan]

Chiefs fan?Yep. Last weekend was hell on earth. I figure with LJ out and Brodie Croyle as the starter things are only going to get worse from here on out. But at least KC got rid of Dave Rayner. He can burn in hell. Laces up yah bastard! (Wonders who will get the reference ;) )

[Winston*]

Weekend

Two Lane Blacktop
Darkman

[Ezee E]

Hmm. You guys think I'd like Lars and the Real Girl? How about Redacted?

[Boner M]

I have the following available for this weekend:
Paradise Lost: Child Murders at Robin Hood
Billy Liar
Go with these.


Two Lane Blacktop
Awesome. I don't know if it's your kinda thing, but you should at least appreciate Warren Oates' performance.

[Kurosawa Fan]

How about Redacted?

I don't think you'd care for this one.

[Rowland]

I don't think you'd care for this one.You WOULD say that.

But yeah, me neither.

[Ezee E]

I'll probably check out Redacted just to see what the fuss is all about, but probably not in the theater.

[origami_mustache]

Yep. Last weekend was hell on earth. I figure with LJ out and Brodie Croyle as the starter things are only going to get worse from here on out. But at least KC got rid of Dave Rayner. He can burn in hell. Laces up yah bastard! (Wonders who will get the reference ;) )

Haha @ Ace Ventura reference. I'm from KC and it's hard for me to get behind The Chiefs. Oddly enough though I don't mind being a Royals fan as bad as they are.

[Kurosawa Fan]

You WOULD say that.

But yeah, me neither.

:cool:

You know, at first I was just going to make some lame comment about how it sucked, but I thought about it for a bit and I really don't think E would care for it, regardless of my opinion.

[Qrazy]

The structure of the script is definitely good, and I really like the general idea. I remember the dialogue being a bit ham-fisted though.


I don't know. It seemed like Fonda's version of the case was meant to be much more accurate than all the others, and that everybody else was just going on ignorance. The whole thing seemed too much about one upright guy struggling for justice, rather than being about the inherent ambiguities involved in a jury of peers. Maybe I just wanted the movie to deal with different themes, or to deal more subtly with its chosen themes and characters.

Ah yeah, well it's certainly not a subtle film or a film which explores the intricacies of the justice system. The focus is on the dramatic possibilities of the situation and the emotional extremities disagreement can bring about.

[Qrazy]

so it looks like Juno is gonna become this years critically loved movie that's cool to hate. last year was Little Miss Sunshine and then Crash the year before.

Whether or not they're cool to hate the latter two should be hated because they're terrible, pandering, manipulative films. I haven't seen Juno.

[eternity]

Juno looks way better than Little Miss Sunshine or Crash did. And I liked Little Miss Sunshine, and thought Crash was good on my first viewing, and phenomenally shitty every time afterwards.

[balmakboor]

Weekend:

Mouchette
Au Hasard Balthazar



Those two go great together. They are like companion pieces in a way.

[Melville]

Those two go great together. They are like companion pieces in a way.
Indeed. Martyred donkeys and children are a winning combination.

[balmakboor]

Those two go great together. They are like companion pieces in a way.

http://www.google.com/search?q=mouchette+%22au+hasar d+balthazar%22+%22companion+pi ece

[jesse]

Why the hate for The Grapes of Wrath? I dislike both Grapes and 12 Angry Men for similar reasons... both are essentially liberal pandering. Now I'm about as across-the-board liberal as they come, but it still makes me uncomfortable when really complex issues are boiled down into something that's so generically good vs. evil. I find both films rather insulting, to be honest.

[Melville]

http://www.google.com/search?q=mouchette+%22au+hasar d+balthazar%22+%22companion+pi ece
?

[Melville]

I dislike both Grapes and 12 Angry Men for similar reasons... both are essentially liberal pandering. Now I'm about as across-the-board liberal as they come, but it still makes me uncomfortable when really complex issues are boiled down into something that's so generically good vs. evil. I find both films rather insulting, to be honest.
Ah, gotcha. I agree, and I disliked Steinbeck's novel for that reason. Now I can't remember why I liked the movie.

[origami_mustache]

Weekend:
Children of Paradise
Nostalgia
Cafe Lumiere

[Sven]

o_m and dd watching C.O.P. this weekend makes me hug myself. I hope you guys 1, actually get around to it and 2, love it half as much as I do.

[Ivan Drago]

The Player is a masterpiece and Robert Altman is a fucking genius.

[eternity]

The Player is a masterpiece and Robert Altman is a fucking genius.By far it's his best film.

[Philosophe_rouge]

The moral of this story is, I need to see the Player.

[eternity]

The moral of this story is, I need to see the Player.
http://content.ytmnd.com/content/8/b/7/8b7d95a5c3239a28d899c83d0b5dd7 02.jpg

Yes god dammit!

[origami_mustache]

The Player is a masterpiece and Robert Altman is a fucking genius.

Sounds about right.

[megladon8]

I'm actually a really big fan of Gosford Park.

I loved reading Agatha Christie mysteries as a kid, and it reminded me of those a lot.

[Rowland]

Is anyone familiar with the Chilean filmmaker Raúl Ruiz? I just watched a surreal thriller of his called Shattered Image, which managed to be rather entertaining despite starring a typically charisma-deficient William Baldwin. Reading up on the man, I discovered that the rest of filmography isn't quite as disreputable... I'm intrigued.

[Briare]

I would probably now be in the minority when I say that I love MASH far and above any Altman film that I've seen.

[origami_mustache]

I would probably now be in the minority when I saw that I love MASH far and above any Altman film that I've seen.

I love MASH. The Player and Nashville are among my favorites as well, however I have a lot more Altman to watch.

[Sycophant]

Colma: The Musical is as rough as you can get. It shows every dollar that wasn't spent on it. But that doesn't keep it from being a terribly enjoyable, keenly observed, and still quite impressive. I was actually very impressed with the songwriting by producer/screenwriter/co-star H.P. Mendoza.

[Qrazy]

I'd be inclined to say that Short Cuts, The Long Goodbye, McCabe and Mrs. Miller and Nashville are all better than The Player... so I guess I'd put The Player in the bottom section of his top tier films. But it's still quite good.

[Bosco B Thug]

I'd be inclined to say that Short Cuts, The Long Goodbye, McCabe and Mrs. Miller and Nashville are all better than The Player... so I guess I'd put The Player in the bottom section of his top tier films. But it's still quite good. I'd agree. The Player underwhelmed me, but I'm practically in love with everything else I've seen from Altman (including all the ones you mention). I'd actually have to admit I'm not a fan of the movie. The best scenes involve the police characters.

[ledfloyd]

The Long Goodbye is my favorite Altman flick. Closely followed by California Split.

[Qrazy]

The Long Goodbye is my favorite Altman flick. Closely followed by California Split.

California Split was entertaining but to me it felt like the parts were greater than the sum... and it disintegrated somewhat by the end. There are some fantastic scenes sprinkled throughout.

I watched that and Atlantic City in rapid succession and felt that they both suffered from the aforementioned problems... although Atlantic City is much, much less interesting, pretty tedious really. While I'd recommend and re-watch Split I'd do neither for City.

[Kurosawa Fan]

The Long Goodbye is my favorite Altman flick. Closely followed by California Split.

I love these two, but McCabe & Mrs. Miller still takes the cake for me. I also love A Wedding, which if I remember correctly from the consensus, isn't a very popular film in his filmography.

[Yxklyx]

Is anyone familiar with the Chilean filmmaker Raúl Ruiz? I just watched a surreal thriller of his called Shattered Image, which managed to be rather entertaining despite starring a typically charisma-deficient William Baldwin. Reading up on the man, I discovered that the rest of filmography isn't quite as disreputable... I'm intrigued.

Check out Three Crowns of the Sailor - I couldn't stand The Suspended Vocation.

[Raiders]

McCabe & Mrs. Miller is my favorite Altman, but I'll be the lone one to say The Company runs a close second. I adore that film.

[balmakboor]

McCabe & Mrs. Miller is my favorite Altman, but I'll be the lone one to say The Company runs a close second. I adore that film.

I really need to see The Company.

I agree. McCabe & Mrs. Miller is my favorite as well. The Long Goodbye is a close second though.

[lovejuice]

McCabe & Mrs. Miller is my favorite Altman, but I'll be the lone one to say The Company runs a close second. I adore that film.

i too really love the company. in term of border line dance film, it's much better than the oscar-nominated ever famous tango.

damn, i'm so afraid to watch short cuts. alman and carver are my most revered english-speaking artists in their own fields. there is no way this movie can meet my expectation.

[Philosophe_rouge]

Nashville and The Long Goodbye are my favourite Altman films. I have yet to dislike anything I've seen by him, and I'm hoping the streak will continue.

[Mal]

Weeekend
Breakfast at Tiffany's
Mississippi Masala
No Country for Old Men

[Sycophant]

I love these two, but McCabe & Mrs. Miller still takes the cake for me. I also love A Wedding, which if I remember correctly from the consensus, isn't a very popular film in his filmography.

I've seen something like five films from Altman--including the aforementioned The Player--and while I liked all of them, A Wedding is my favorite.

[jesse]

Ah, gotcha. I agree, and I disliked Steinbeck's novel for that reason. Now I can't remember why I liked the movie. Plus my issues with Grapes are heightened because of my own personal history--I come from an agricultural background and from several generations of farmers (my hometown is actually mentioned several times in the novel). As such, I really dislike the demonization of all farmers in the novel.

On the other hand, my grandmother on the other side of the family was an hoenst-to-god okie/refugee, living in the abject poverty and camps that the Joads experience (I heard some stories last Christmas that almost made me cry). Needless to say, as I'm well acquainted with both sides of such the complex time in history that is presented in the novel and the film, and as such was pretty disgusted to witness something so relentlessly one-sided.

And just wanted to emphasize, the presence of Fonda kicks both films down a few knocks as well (he's at his most insufferable when he's the liberal savior).

And that's the last I'll say on this topic.

[lovejuice]

...As such, I really dislike the demonization of all farmers in the novel...And that's the last I'll say on this topic.

if you don't mind, i'm still curious why you think grapes demonizes farmers. if anything, they are the victims of god, fate, and capitalism. from what i remember, there is hardly any evil farmers in the book. it makes more sense to get offended if you're, say, a tractor manufacturer.

[balmakboor]

if you don't mind, i'm still curious why you think grapes demonizes farmers. if anything, they are the victims of god, fate, and capitalism. from what i remember, there is hardly any evil farmers in the book. it makes more sense to get offended if you're, say, a tractor manufacturer.

Speaking only of the film -- I haven't read the novel since high school almost 30 years ago -- I don't see it as being about farming at all. It's a piece of left wing propaganda about the little guys getting crushed by greedy capitalists. It's about the formation of unions. It's like Bound for Glory. I don't remember a single scene anywhere near a crop field.

Of course, I love left wing propaganda, so I love the film.

[MadMan]

Haha @ Ace Ventura reference. I'm from KC and it's hard for me to get behind The Chiefs. Oddly enough though I don't mind being a Royals fan as bad as they are.I can sort of understand that...and I have a soft spot for the Royals considering how bad they are. We Cubs fans know all about pain and suffering :lol:

I've only seen three Altman films, and I've loved each one. Nashville and Secret Honor get a 10.0 from me, and I rated The Long Goodbye a 9.5. Elliot Gould's characterization and portrayal of Marlowe just flat out rocks, and really is a mirror of the cynical 70s.

[Melville]

Plus my issues with Grapes are heightened because of my own personal history--I come from an agricultural background and from several generations of farmers (my hometown is actually mentioned several times in the novel). As such, I really dislike the demonization of all farmers in the novel.
I'm confused along with lovejuice and fasozupow. It didn't seem like Steinbeck was demonizing farmers so much as generally idolizing poor people (and their connection to some sort of "universal human spirit"), and generally demonizing rich people (and their disconnection from said spirit).

I'm also still confused by fasozupow's link to a google search. What was up with that?

[D_Davis]

I've always thought of Steinbeck and William Saroyan as being the ultimate champions of the common folk, of the poor, and of rural America.

[balmakboor]

I'm also still confused by fasozupow's link to a google search. What was up with that?

I was simply amused that a google search on the terms: "Mouchette 'au hasard balthazar' 'companion piece'" returned so many different people making that connection. I just thought about it as being two films about abused teenage girls.

[Melville]

I was simply amused that a google search on the terms: "Mouchette 'au hasard balthazar' 'companion piece'" returned so many different people making that connection. I just thought about it as being two films about abused teenage girls.
Oh. I thought it was either a strange way of recommending the region 2 editions of the films, or an equally strange response to my joke about Bresson's repeated depiction of martyrdom. Your actual reason makes much more sense.

[Qrazy]

Plus my issues with Grapes are heightened because of my own personal history--I come from an agricultural background and from several generations of farmers (my hometown is actually mentioned several times in the novel). As such, I really dislike the demonization of all farmers in the novel.

On the other hand, my grandmother on the other side of the family was an hoenst-to-god okie/refugee, living in the abject poverty and camps that the Joads experience (I heard some stories last Christmas that almost made me cry). Needless to say, as I'm well acquainted with both sides of such the complex time in history that is presented in the novel and the film, and as such was pretty disgusted to witness something so relentlessly one-sided.

And just wanted to emphasize, the presence of Fonda kicks both films down a few knocks as well (he's at his most insufferable when he's the liberal savior).

And that's the last I'll say on this topic.

It's the story of a family, viewed through the eyes of a family and a particular social bracket, not a political treatise on the nature of inequality. Plus it's also John Ford, which is not a justification in so much as an explication of the style of storytelling. Moral archetypes and extremes are to be expected, although it's not entirely one-sided, the 'good' guys have their flaws as well.

I find it a little absurd that we're labeling the championing of the poor as leftist propaganda now. Particularly because the left/right, Democrat/Republican breakdown is so overwhelmingly transient and mutable.

[Rowland]

Check out Three Crowns of the Sailor This is the one that sounded the most interesting to me. Have you seen Genealogies of a Crime?

[balmakboor]

I find it a little absurd that we're labeling the championing of the poor as leftist propaganda now. Particularly because the left/right, Democrat/Republican breakdown is so overwhelmingly transient and mutable.

I disagree. Left is still left and right is still right. (Or as I would say, left is still right and right is still wrong.) What has become transient is Democrat/Republican. Unfortunately, that line has drifted distressingly far in the wrong direction for my tastes.

Championing of the poor has always been a leftist concern, always will be.

Now, if you want to talk about absurdity, that's how I find the church's general support of the Republican party.

[Melville]

It's the story of a family, viewed through the eyes of a family and a particular social bracket, not a political treatise on the nature of inequality.
I think this is much more true of the film than it is of the book, which is pretty damn pedantic about its grand-scale deification of the poor and demonization of the rich.


I find it a little absurd that we're labeling the championing of the poor as leftist propaganda now. Particularly because the left/right, Democrat/Republican breakdown is so overwhelmingly transient and mutable.
Well, the story's pretty explicit in its support of unions and of the united spirit of the working class in general. I don't think fasozupow is talking about the "left-wing" as modern "liberalism," but as old-school socialism.

Edit: maybe I was wrong about fasozupow's use of the term.

[balmakboor]

I think this is much more true of the film than it is of the book, which is pretty damn pedantic about its grand-scale deification of the poor and demonization of the rich.


Well, the story's pretty explicit in it's support of unions and of the united spirit of the working class in general. I don't think fasozupow is talking about the "left-wing" as modern "liberalism," but as old-school socialism.

Edit: maybe I was wrong about fasozupow's use of the term.

No, you're right.

What I meant though is -isms will come and go and drift here and there and so will political parties, but "left" and "right" are fixed in place. You are right in that "old school socialism" did a fine job of embracing the "left" and I also think that is where The Grapes of Wrath's heart lies.

[Qrazy]

I think this is much more true of the film than it is of the book, which is pretty damn pedantic about its grand-scale deification of the poor and demonization of the rich.


Well, the story's pretty explicit in it's support of unions and of the united spirit of the working class in general. I don't think fasozupow is talking about the "left-wing" as modern "liberalism," but as old-school socialism.

Well yeah, I'm only talking about the film.

I don't see support for unionization as having socialist connotations. And either way a film can have moral and political leanings without being a propaganda piece. Labeling it as propaganda for any particular political group is really what I take umbrage with. Perhaps the film over simplifies it's scenarios, but that doesn't make it propaganda. I am Cuba and Triumph of the Will are propaganda films because, amongst other things, the purpose of their creation and the thrust of their general tone was to inspire surrender to a particular political ideology, and I don't see The Grapes of Wrath or... How Green was my Valley or... In the Name of the Father or... A Tale of Two Cities... Germinal... etc as falling into that class of creation.

[Qrazy]

No, you're right.

What I meant though is -isms will come and go and drift here and there and so will political parties, but "left" and "right" are fixed in place. You are right in that "old school socialism" did a fine job of embracing the "left" and I also think that is where The Grapes of Wrath's heart lies.

I don't agree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-right_politics

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

[Yxklyx]

This is the one that sounded the most interesting to me. Have you seen Genealogies of a Crime?

No. Mind you, Three Crowns is very slow and there's not always something interesting to look at.

[Qrazy]

No. Mind you it's very slow and there's not always something interesting to look at.

Have you seen Cassavetes Faces? His masterpiece.

[Yxklyx]

Have you seen Cassavetes Faces? His masterpiece.

Netflix doesn't have it. I think my local store does though - need to check it out soon.

Why does Raiders not like Shadows? I loved it!

[balmakboor]

Well yeah, I'm only talking about the film.

I don't see support for unionization as having socialist connotations. And either way a film can have moral and political leanings without being a propaganda piece. Labeling it as propaganda for any particular political group is really what I take umbrage with. Perhaps the film over simplifies it's scenarios, but that doesn't make it propaganda. I am Cuba and Triumph of the Will are propaganda films because, amongst other things, the purpose of their creation and the thrust of their general tone was to inspire surrender to a particular political ideology, and I don't see The Grapes of Wrath or... How Green was my Valley or... In the Name of the Father or... A Tale of Two Cities... Germinal... etc as falling into that class of creation.

I think "propaganda" has been handed an undeserved bad reputation. When I use it, I don't imply any negative connotation. This is due mostly to things like Triumph of the Will which was propaganda in support of something we can all agree was a bad thing.

Propaganda is one-sided pursuasive material. The Grapes of Wrath is meant to pursuade the viewer toward the need for such classically leftist goals as unions and it depicts the crushing of the many poor by the few wealthy. And it is one-sided. The poor are shown as very decent people who would benefit by these goals and the wealthy are portrayed as evil with everything to lose by these goals.

[balmakboor]

I don't agree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-right_politics

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

From the first link:

"'The Left' and 'The Right' are usually understood to represent polar opposites for each determinant [typically issue]"

This is exactly what I'm saying.

Of course, once I run into this at Widipedia:

"The neutrality of this article is disputed."

I know it's best to simply stop reading.


All Politcal Compass is saying is that no political party can truly be described as purely leftist or rightist. This is also what I was saying -- or at least intending to say.

[Qrazy]

I think "propaganda" has been handed an undeserved bad reputation. When I use it, I don't imply any negative connotation. This is due mostly to things like Triumph of the Will which was propaganda in support of something we can all agree was a bad thing.

Propaganda is one-sided pursuasive material. The Grapes of Wrath is meant to pursuade the viewer toward the need for such classically leftist goals as unions and it depicts the crushing of the many poor by the few wealthy. And it is one-sided. The poor are shown as very decent people who would benefit by these goals and the wealthy are portrayed as evil with everything to lose by these goals.

Propaganda is viewed by many in art as a negative, not an all encompassing negative, but a negative nonetheless, in so far as it's dishonest. I view leftist, rightist, upsidedownest and whatever propaganda there may be as less powerful and persuasive art for just that reason, not for any subconscious relationship propaganda may have with Triumph of the Will or Nazism in general. Granted political propaganda serves a purpose... where would we be without Paine's Common Sense?

But is Kurosawa's High and Low leftist propaganda? The Lower Depths?

I find your application of the definition in this regard too broad to be meaningful. Michael Moore makes propaganda films. Errol Morris does not. Yet both make 'liberally' minded films.

[Melville]

I don't see support for unionization as having socialist connotations.
Really? Isn't that a pretty traditional historical association?

Edit: regarding propaganda, I think defining its boundaries is somewhat arbitrary. The Grapes of Wrath simplifies a complicated issue in order to favor one group or class of people. I don't think a definition of propaganda that encompasses that is meaninglessly broad.

[Qrazy]

From the first link:

"'The Left' and 'The Right' are usually understood to represent polar opposites for each determinant [typically issue]"

This is exactly what I'm saying.

Of course, once I run into this at Widipedia:

"The neutrality of this article is disputed."

I know it's best to simply stop reading.


All Politcal Compass is saying is that no political party can truly be described as purely leftist or rightist. This is also what I was saying -- or at least intending to say.

And the sentence before that and before the neutrality is disputed. "Left vs. Right is an imprecise, broad, dialectical interpretation of a set of factors or determinants." Any way, neutrality on wikipedia is disputed for a variety of reasons, and in this case would probably have little or no import on this conversation... but if you prefer, substitute any basic political science textbook about the left-right dichotomy as recourse.

The point is that in any given social-political climate left and right don't mean the same thing and that what they represent in one instance, they may represent the inverse in another. It's right there on the webpage... an extreme and over used example, but helpful -- Can we say that Stalin is more leftist than Gandhi? In some sense yes, it's justifiable and so we must then admit that the one-dimensional scale is problematic.

[Qrazy]

Really? Isn't that a pretty traditional historical association?

Edit: regarding propaganda, I think defining its boundaries is somewhat arbitrary. The Grapes of Wrath simplifies a complicated issue in order to favor one group or class of people. I don't think a definition of propaganda that encompasses that is meaninglessly broad.

There were plenty of hardline socialists who were against unionization because in their mind it undermined the larger goal, revolution. They did not want compromise because they felt it would slow the process of change down.

On the flip side, there are many capitalists who support(ed) unionization... if not for the worker, then because they felt it would by and large lead to happier and therefore better, more efficient workers.

Just to be clear I'm not saying it is wrong to dislike the book or the film for the reasons already described. I feel that it is misleading to refer to it as propaganda rather than as an (depending on a given interpretation of the narrator, and the style of the film... to some degree a dismissal of archetypal storytelling) overly simplistic take on the causes and effects of The Great Depression. For the reasons I have already described I feel that propaganda and archetype are not the same thing and that it is important to distinguish between the two.

[lovejuice]

i am a polar opposite of fasozupow. a leftish propaganda offends me easily, and i have a quick eye catching one. grapes the novel however does not strike me as overly leftish or pro-communist ala london's iron heel. sure, the sufferers are poor, and there is this referring to capitalism as an invisible beast with sharp fangs. but there is no benefited party in grapes, no capitalist per se. everyone is equally worse off, even the businessmen. i remember, there is a section in which a banker mourns that fact they have to overtake poor farmers' land because that's the way the system works. if they don't, someone else will and this'll amount to the same thing for the farmers.

i like the novel. i doubt my reaction'll be the same if steinbeck is a pro-communist. (he can still be a socialist. that's a possibility.)

[balmakboor]

And the sentence before that and before the neutrality is disputed. "Left vs. Right is an imprecise, broad, dialectical interpretation of a set of factors or determinants." Any way, neutrality on wikipedia is disputed for a variety of reasons, and in this case would probably have little or no import on this conversation... but if you prefer, substitute any basic political science textbook about the left-right dichotomy as recourse.

The point is that in any given social-political climate left and right don't mean the same thing and that what they represent in one instance, they may represent the inverse in another. It's right there on the webpage... an extreme and over used example, but helpful -- Can we say that Stalin is more leftist than Gandhi? In some sense yes, it's justifiable and so we must then admit that the one-dimensional scale is problematic.

A rep for you buddy. You've obviously spent a lot more time studying political science than I have. (I've actually never taken a course nor read a book. Maybe I should. I always considered the terms "left" and "right" as reference points against which various ideologies could be compared.)

[Melville]

There were plenty of hardline socialists who were against unionization because in their mind it undermined the larger goal, revolution. They did not want compromise because they felt it would slow the process of change down.

On the flip side, there are many capitalists who support(ed) unionization... if not for the worker, then because they felt it would by and large lead to happier and therefore better, more efficient workers.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that unionization doesn't have historically socialist connotations. However, I'll stop making it seem like I disagree with you, because I actually agree with you. All of these terms are very vaguely defined and should only be used when accompanied by a precise definition.

[Melville]

i remember, there is a section in which a banker mourns that fact they have to overtake poor farmers' land because that's the way the system works.
I'm not sure how you are using the term "communist," but I don't see how this example suggests that the book isn't "left-wing" "propaganda" (with quotes to admit that these terms are somewhat vague). It just sounds like that banker has given in to the evils of the system.

[Qrazy]

A rep for you buddy. You've obviously spent a lot more time studying political science than I have. (I've actually never taken a course nor read a book. Maybe I should. I always considered the terms "left" and "right" as reference points against which various ideologies could be compared.)

No worries, and thanks, sorry if I came across as overly aggressive. As hard as it is to gauge other people's tone and attitude over a message board, I often find it equally hard to gauge the tone and attitude my own words put across.

[Rowland]

Why are the Iraq movies tanking? (http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A164674)

This is an interesting article that goes into the differences between the ever-so-popular Vietnam war movies and modern Iraq/War on Terror movies, ultimately tying this into how Redacted is the poster child for these modern war movies that are collectively failing to garner interest.

[Qrazy]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that unionization doesn't have historically socialist connotations.

True.

On an unrelated note I watched What Time is it There? and The Wayward Cloud back to back the other day... very impressed by the former, relatively impressed by the latter.

[Melville]

Can we say that Stalin is more leftist than Gandhi?
Not that I want to continue a dead-end conversation, and not that this comment is relevant in any way, but going by the term's historical origin in the French Revolution, can't we definitively say that Stalin was more leftist than Gandhi?

[Melville]

On an unrelated note I watched What Time is it There? and The Wayward Cloud back to back the other day... very impressed by the former, relatively impressed by the latter.
I really liked the contrasts in The Wayward Cloud: the mix of silence and music, deadened sexuality and romantic wistfulness, etc. I've wanted to see What Time is it There? for a while, and I even intended to order it recently, but for some reason I opted for The Hole instead.

[Qrazy]

Not that I want to continue a dead-end conversation, and not that this comment is relevant in any way, but going by the term's historical origin in the French Revolution, can't we definitively say that Stalin was more leftist than Gandhi?

Well, I've heard that Gandhi was left-handed and I've also heard that he was ambidextrous... while on the flip-side, Stalin was forced to become left-handed when he lost the use of his right-hand. So I think the issue is still open for debate.

[Melville]

Well, I've heard that Gandhi was left-handed and I've also heard that he was ambidextrous... while on the flip-side, Stalin was forced to become left-handed when he lost the use of his right-hand. So I think the issue is still open for debate.
:lol:

I'm not sure that I get the joke, but somehow it's still funny.

[baby doll]

Why are the Iraq movies tanking? (http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A164674)Ah Vietnam... those were the days. It's so much nicer fighting a country with trees whose people have already been pre-colonized and therefore know how to charm western journalists.

Seriously, is this guy for real?

[Rowland]

Ah Vietnam... those were the days. It's so much nicer fighting a country with trees whose people have already been pre-colonized and therefore know how to charm western journalists.

Seriously, is this guy for real?He is (partly) arguing that Vietnam was a more engaging, relatable, and even inspiring milieu for movies, from commercial and artistic standpoints.

[baby doll]

He is arguing that Vietnam was a more engaging, relatable, and even inspiring milieu for movies.As far as the relative exoticism of the two countries, and the charm of the Iraqi people vs. colonized Vietnamese, he's talking about western journalists who find the flatness of the Iraqi landscape harder to work with than Vietnam's jungles (not surprisingly, Lawrence of Arabia and Three Kings--both war films that make the dessert beautiful--never come up) and wish America's newly liberated subjects would treat them more hospitibly (apparently, there are fewer brothels in Baghdad than Saigon).

In terms of the overall thrust of the argument, it strikes me as awfully subjective to interpret box office results through one's own subjective biases.

[soitgoes...]

Why are the Iraq movies tanking? (http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A164674)

This is an interesting article that goes into the differences between the ever-so-popular Vietnam war movies and modern Iraq/War on Terror movies, ultimately tying this into how Redacted is the poster child for these modern war movies that are collectively failing to garner interest.I believe its as simple as Vietnam War movies generally became popular after the war, not during. We visit the Iraqi War every day of our lives, through magazines, internet, and TV. When the war ends and time has passed, then it'll perhaps be marketable.

[baby doll]

I believe its as simple as Vietnam War movies generally became popular after the war, not during. We visit the Iraqi War every day of our lives, through magazines, internet, and TV. When the war ends and time has passed, then it'll perhaps be marketable.Agreed. It's hardly coincedental that the one film he mentions that was actually released during the war, Altman's M*A*S*H, is a comedy in which the only gun that's fired is a starter pistol at a football game.

[Rowland]

In terms of the overall thrust of the argument, it strikes me as awfully subjective to interpret box office results through one's own subjective biases.That's only like two paragraphs of the article. He also talks about how modern politicized war movies are comparatively dry affairs more interested in their liberal agendas than making inspiring, mythical movies, and how the massive deluge of information about the war has made it all seem commonplace, which is how he ties in Redacted as the exemplar of this trend.

And of course it's subjective to interpret something subjectively. How else should he interpret it?

[baby doll]

That's only like two paragraphs of the article. He also talks about how modern politicized war movies are comparatively dry affairs more interested in their liberal agendas than making inspiring, mythical movies, and how the massive deluge of information about the war has made it all seem commonplace, which is how he ties in Redacted as the exemplar of this trend.

And of course it's subjective to interpret something subjectively. How else should he interpret it?Should movies about the Iraq war be inspiring or mythical? And how is, say, Apocalypse Now either of those things? (It basically makes the case that the Americans lost because they weren't hard enough to cut the arms off children. Of course, that particular atrocity was invented by Coppola and his right-wing screenwriter, John Millius, but I suppose that's beside the point.) And how did Vietnam, which was reported on nightly by the national news for the better part of a decade, seem less commonplace to the people who lived through it? I suppose we have access to more information via the internet and 24-hour news networks, though given how many people thought Saddam was linked to 9/11, I wonder whether it's getting through. With Vietnam, journalists were actually allowed to do their jobs without interference from the White House (can you imagine executions being shown on television today? We can't even see the coffins of dead American soldiers).

[Rowland]

Should movies about the Iraq war be inspiring or mythical? And how is, say, Apocalypse Now either of those things? (It basically makes the case that the Americans lost because they weren't hard enough to cut the arms off children. Of course, that particular atrocity was invented by Coppola and his right-wing screenwriter, John Millius, but I suppose that's beside the point.)I don't necessarily see inspiring as being synonymous with inspirational. Pessimistic movies can't be inspiring? I'm talking about an artistic cinematic vision that captures imaginations through bolder strokes than Liberal talking points. That said, I wouldn't argue that such movies flat-out don't exist about Iraq. I thought Turtles Can Fly was a fascinating piece, and notably one not made by an American.
And how did Vietnam, which was reported on nightly by the national news for the better part of a decade, seem less commonplace to the people who lived through it? I suppose we have access to more information via the internet and 24-hour news networks, though given how many people thought Saddam was linked to 9/11, I wonder whether it's getting through. With Vietnam, journalists were actually allowed to do their jobs without interference from the White House (can you imagine executions being shown on television today? We can't even see the coffins of dead American soldiers).I'm thinking that it has less to do with an excess of war news than it is an excess of information and stimulation in general. De Palma was on to something with his approach in this regard, but he didn't follow it through.

[D_Davis]

Call me when Chuck Norris makes MIA V: Solid as Iraq

[Rowland]

Call me when Chuck Norris makes MIA V: Solid as IraqNah, Norris is too busy trying to weasel Christianity into public schools.

Who should be deemed his protégé? Is there a modern Chuck?

[jesse]

Is anyone familiar with the Chilean filmmaker Raúl Ruiz? I just watched a surreal thriller of his called Shattered Image, which managed to be rather entertaining despite starring a typically charisma-deficient William Baldwin. Reading up on the man, I discovered that the rest of filmography isn't quite as disreputable... I'm intrigued. He's a favorite of mine on the strength of two films alone: Le temps retrouve (Time Regained) and Hypothesis of a Stolen Painting. The former is generally considered the best adaptation of Proust we've yet seen and the later I consider to be the only film I've seen that really explores the territory opened up by Last Year at Marienbad. I wish more of his films were available--his filmography is massive.

[Mysterious Dude]

There are certainly a few very good movies about Vietnam, but there aren't that many. And some of the good ones (Platoon, Full Metal Jacket) weren't made until well after the war was over. There is plenty of time for a good Iraq movie to be made.

[soitgoes...]

There are certainly a few very good movies about Vietnam, but there aren't that many. And some of the good ones (Platoon, Full Metal Jacket) weren't made until well after the war was over. There is plenty of time for a good Iraq movie to be made.
And Operation Dumbo Drop, can't forget that one.