Westworld (Season 1)

[transmogrifier]

(a) "I haven't seen it, so have no opinion on that" --- lol, good try tho

(b) still not having anything to do with the argument I was making

You ever wonder why you seem to get into petty arguments on the internet? I would suggest you re-read your post here.

[Winston*]

(b) Ross was the worst character on Friends, by a distance. The best seasons of the The Wire (3 and 4) coincided with McNulty being sidelined from the main narrative, and the weakest (5) with McNulty being forced back into main role doing the same shit he was doing in Season 1 and 2. So I'm not sure how asking for Westworld to have a main protagonist and then using these examples helps your case.

In the same vein I don't think Homicide: Life on the Streets had an identifiable protagonist.

[Irish]

You ever wonder why you seem to get into petty arguments on the internet? I would suggest you re-read your post here.

More I'm wondering why you're attempting to troll me. I mean, think about what you just did. You haven't seen this show, but you still felt free to offer plenty of opinions as to why I'm wrong about it. What was the point?

[transmogrifier]

It's true that it's not really paranoia if they are truly out to get you. But in this case, it is just paranoia and you really need to get over yourself.

Here is what you said:

After nearly 2 hours of screen time, the show doesn't have a recognizable protagonist.

Even on other HBO shows with ensemble casts and multiple storylines, one character serves as narrative focus: Tony Soprano, Carrie Bradshaw, Jimmy McNulty, Sookie Stackhouse, etc.

But on Westworld, it's not clear who that person is, or even might be. Last week, they set up Dolores to assume that role. This week, she was barely in the episode.

and

The character doesn't have to be in every episode. They're just the narrative focus, the person the audience is meant to identify with. Usually, they'll be involved in major storylines and most of the other characters will connect through them. (Eg: Ross on Friends, or Jerry on Seinfeld.)

The only mainstream show I could think of that didn't do this was Simon's thing about New Orleans post-Katrina. That was really diffuse, with no one character or storyline seemingly more important than any other.

With Westworld, they set up Evan Rachel Wood in the pilot, ditched her in the second episode, then introduced 2 more major characters and gave Jeffrey Wright a subplot. And nobody really connects to anyone else--there's no character bridge between the lab and the park, for instance. So I dunno what's going on there.

Then you and Ezee have a extended back-and-forth on whether Delores is the protagonist. And then I said:

I would argue that discussing whether someone is a recognizable protagonist or not is less important than explaining (a) why you think it matters that a show have a recognizable main protagonist and (b) why it is important that a show be more like Friends.

So I guess I must be trolling Ezee as well, right? No, wait.... it's all about you.

You offer up the lack of a main protagonist as a criticism in itself. The only thing approaching a reason for why Westworld needs one is your " [protagonists are] the person the audience is meant to identify with." You are speaking generally here. You give examples of the trend in general. So when I reply generally (see the bolded parts of my quote), you suddenly try to twist it into yet another unprovoked attack on you by pretending that I was talking about Westworld specifically, despite having not seen it.

It's pretty basic conversation 101, distinguishing generalities from specific cases. But you are so determined to make disagreement with certain people on here a personal battle of eternal hatred or something that you quickly resort, unprovoked, to snarky bullshit and then wonder why you always get drawn into arguments.

I don't have any of these types of talks with anyone else here. Why is that? Your answer is "transmogrifier just wants to troll me because he's an arsehole." That is one possible option, granted. But I suggest you think about other possible explanations; they may help you more in the future.

[Irish]

So I guess I must be trolling Ezee as well, right? No, wait.... it's all about you.

You directly addressed arguments I made, not Ezee. So it's narcissistic to assume those comments were directed my way? Uh, okay.

This is a Westworld thread. I was making a criticism of Westworld. I gave examples of both HBO and network shows with large ensemble casts to provide context for that argument. We could extend that argument outwards, dig into it, and talk about the details, but that's a different discussion.

You haven't seen the show. Going into a thread of a show you haven't seen and arguing with people is obnoxious. This should be obvious. I don't understand why you're surprised anyone would have a curt reaction to your behavior.

Edited to add: Also, I think you can take me to task for giving you the brush off in a way that's not so personal. I was short without being mean. You, not so much. I hope you can see the difference.

[Winston*]

I think Irish may have a valid point in there about the lack of an identifiable lead or leads might make it difficult to emotionally invest in the show long-term. It's still at the world building stage though, so I think it's too early to make that call. I bet it focuses itself towards the end of the season.

To say all stories have protagonists is a weird assertion though. The novel I'm currently reading doesn't have a protagonist.

[transmogrifier]

You directly addressed arguments I made, not Ezee. So it's narcissistic to assume those comments were directed my way? Uh, okay.

This is a Westworld thread. I was making a criticism of Westworld. I gave examples of both HBO and network shows with large ensemble casts to provide context for that argument. We could extend that argument outwards, dig into it, and talk about the details, but that's a different discussion.

You haven't seen the show. Going into a thread of a show you haven't seen and arguing with people is obnoxious. This should be obvious. I don't understand why you're surprised anyone would have a curt reaction to your behavior.

Edited to add: Also, I think you can take me to task for giving you the brush off in a way that's not so personal. I was short without being mean. You, not so much. I hope you can see the difference.

Discussing generalities is not the same as the discussing a specific show. It doesn't matter what show name is at the top of the thread. If you can't see that, I can't help you. I'll just add this to the list of Things That Seem to Piss Off Irish For No Particular Reason. It's a long list.

[transmogrifier]

I think Irish may have a valid point in there about the lack of an identifiable lead or leads might make it difficult to emotionally invest in the show long-term. It's still at the world building stage though, so I think it's too early to make that call. I bet it focuses itself towards the end of the season.

Could be. Depends on the show, I think, and what it is trying to do. It also depends if you are referring to the quest for ratings (in which I think it is obvious that most shows need an identifiable lead to get a foothold in a wide demographic) or personal reaction (I've already mentioned I preferred The Wire when the main protagonist was sidelined, for example). I just don't think not having a lead protagonist in itself is necessarily a bad thing from a personal enjoyment point of view.

[Irish]

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

I wasn't really attempting to talk in generalities, but to respond to Ezee's assertion about HBO shows and their protagonists. And then provide examples of what I meant.

Since you can't understand any of the context around this, not having seen the show, I can't help you either.

I'll just add this to the list of Things That Seem to Piss Off Irish For No Particular Reason. It's a long list.

You ever wonder why you seem to get into petty arguments on the internet?

[

Show Spoiler

Your baseless, smug tone right here? This is why.

]

[transmogrifier]

You ever wonder why you seem to get into petty arguments on the internet?

[

Show Spoiler

Your baseless, smug tone right here? This is why.

]

Thing is, I don't get into petty arguments on the internet. I get into petty arguments with you. That's it.

How about you?

[Winston*]

The Wire's an interesting case. You could maybe argue that the various institutions have a character as a focal point on a season to season basis.

Maybe similar for Game of Thrones. Though I would maybe argue that rather than having a specifically defined protagonist, the long-term success of that show might be more to do with the viewer having the ability to decide which character(s) to root for, which keeps them invested during all the boring bits.

[Irish]

I think Irish may have a valid point in there about the lack of an identifiable lead or leads might make it difficult to emotionally invest in the show long-term. It's still at the world building stage though, so I think it's too early to make that call. I bet it focuses itself towards the end of the season.

I thought it was weird that they burned 2 full hours of screen time--the length of a feature film--and didn't get around to establishing any of the characters more firmly. The first season only has 10 episodes so this level of fussy world building seems like overkill to me.

My big curiosity now is whether the third episode does the same thing as the first two, or actually moves the show forward.

To say all stories have protagonists is a weird assertion though. The novel I'm currently reading doesn't have a protagonist.

Fair point, but man that's a huge discussion (different mediums have different strengths and different requirements, etc etc).

What's the novel you're reading?

[Irish]

How about you?

I've been big enough to admit it when I've been obnoxious.

How about you?

[Winston*]

I thought it was weird that they burned 2 full hours of screen time--the length of a feature film--and didn't get around to establishing any of the characters more firmly. The first season only has 10 episodes so this level of fussy world building seems like overkill to me.

My big curiosity now is whether the third episode does the same thing as the first two, or actually moves the show forward.



Fair point, but man that's a huge discussion (different mediums have different strengths and different requirements, etc etc).

What's the novel you're reading?

A Brief History of Seven Killings.

[Irish]

A Brief History of Seven Killings.

Cool. I was curious about that one when he won the Booker Prize for it. Be interested in your reaction in one of the literature threads when you're done with it.

[Winston*]

Cool. I was curious about that one when he won the Booker Prize for it. Be interested in your reaction in one of the literature threads when you're done with it.

It's very good, but pretty difficult. Lots of stream of consciousness patois.

[transmogrifier]

The Wire's an interesting case. You could maybe argue that the various institutions have a character as a focal point on a season to season basis.

This is true, I guess, though 4 is by far the most diffuse in that respect. I prefer a range of compelling characters bouncing off each other or overlapping than one dedicated protagonist. Justified became more interesting when it opened up to include more serialized side stories, although Raylan was never not the lead.

[number8]

In the same vein I don't think Homicide: Life on the Streets had an identifiable protagonist.

That's interesting. You really don't think it's Bayliss? They even follow the standard rookie cop on his first case narrative conceit.

[Winston*]

That's interesting. You really don't think it's Bayliss? They even follow the standard rookie cop on his first case narrative conceit.

It's been a long time since I've seen it, but I feel like it spread out pretty soon after that to be more an ensemble thing. I know Bayliss is about the sixth character I would think of if I was listing characters from that show.

Just remembered the plot line where Bayliss was in a relationship with a woman who liked to have sex in a coffin. Oof. Bad.

[number8]

I think it's somewhat common for entry point protagonists to fade into the background, because the whole point is that the other parts of the ensemble are all more interesting on the outset, so once their purpose of facilitating introductions is fulfilled, their character tends to diffuse. See: Paul Walker in the Fast & Furious series.

[Ezee E]

Rewatched the episode today. The acting by every host has impressed me so much more than any other AI character. For example, Maeve and the changes in personality (aggressiveness, emotional acuity) has made it so much more watchable. This includes the dressing room lady, the young child, the man with the eye badge....

[Henry Gale]

This includes the dressing room lady, the young child, the man with the eye badge....

This was supposed to be a younger version of Hopkins that he made of himself, right? I know it's not explicitly said, but that was my first assumption and it only seemed to fit more with each scene.

[Ezee E]

This was supposed to be a younger version of Hopkins that he made of himself, right? I know it's not explicitly said, but that was my first assumption and it only seemed to fit more with each scene.

I don't know if it's for sure. I've seen a few threads on reddit that make it pretty convincing. With that, how creepy. I'm not sure I really understand the purpose of that idea.

The young child I was referring to was the one that told the Man in Black where the entrance was.

[Ezee E]

I took the quiz online to "visit Westworld." Some interesting questions, but especially this one:

You were in a car accident and unfortunately there is nothing left in the wreckage. Luckily you planned ahead and had your entire anatomy measured and mapped, and all of your memories logged and saved. An exact replica is constructed from all this information – is this you?

[transmogrifier]

I've been big enough to admit it when I've been obnoxious.

How about you?

Sure, when I'm obnoxious, I'll be sure to let you know.