MLB Discussion

[soitgoes...]

I'd accept if I were him. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3090231)

[Kurosawa Fan]

Brilliant.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Torre Officially Manager of Dodgers (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3090266)

[soitgoes...]

Torre Officially Manager of Dodgers (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3090266)
I really am surprised that Torre would want to manage a team run by McCourt.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm surprised he didn't take a year off. That's pretty standard. I thought for sure I'd see him in a booth or studio next season.

[soitgoes...]

The fact that he's 67 led me to believe he wouldn't want to manage a new team. I'd have loved if he came back to the Angels as an announcer. He was one of the best announcers they've ever had.

[Gizmo]

That Toledo proposal rocks. That is all.

[MadMan]

The more I think about it, the more I actually don't want the Cubs to get A-Rod. Besides he's done about as much in the post season as the Cubs have recently anyways.

[Kurosawa Fan]

More and more people are talking about the Tigers acquiring him. I'm actually beginning to panic.

[MadMan]

More and more people are talking about the Tigers acquiring him. I'm actually beginning to panic.The Tigers don't need A-Rod. They need more pitching. I know you agree.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Absolutely. Someone please call Dombrowski and tell him that. Please.

[soitgoes...]

I'm thinking he'll end up a Giant. Maybe thats hope though, I haven't decided.

[shaun]

I've pretty much had it with Yankee fans telling me they'd rather have someone like Scott Brosius than ARod anyways because Brosius knew how to win.

Yeah. Ok.

Career Postseason #s
Brosius - .245/.278/.418 OPS - .696
Rodriguez - .279/.361/.483 OPS - .844

The regular season comparison is even funnier.

[Kurosawa Fan]

What about postseason numbers strictly as a Yankee? Skip Bayless (who I loathe) told a stat after the Yankees were eliminated that in A-Rod's last 57 at bats in the postseason with runners in scoring position, he drove in the runner exactly zero times. That's a pretty startling stat. I know he had success early in his career, but he's been all but useless since donning the pinstripes.

[shaun]

What about postseason numbers strictly as a Yankee? ... I know he had success early in his career, but he's been all but useless since donning the pinstripes.He's certainly had a worse postseason career with the Yankees but his numbers are still respectable.

.245/.356/.436 OPS - 792

His problem is that those numbers are only a decent clip above average whereas people's expectations given his regular season career numbers are obviously much higher.
A-Rod's last 57 at bats in the postseason with runners in scoring position, he drove in the runner exactly zero times.It was something like 57 ABs without an RBI period and not with runners in scoring position. It's still a bad streak any way you cut it but it's also a small enough sample size that it may or may not be statistically significant.

[Kurosawa Fan]

It was something like 57 ABs without an RBI period and not with runners in scoring position. It's still a bad streak any way you cut it but it's also a small enough sample size that it may or may not be statistically significant.

No, the stat he quoted was with runners in scoring position, because A-Rod had a solo home run this last series, and it was after they had been eliminated. 57 ABs with runners in scoring position and no RBIs to speak of? I don't care of that's a small sample size, it's alarming for a player of his caliber.

[Dukefrukem]

No, the stat he quoted was with runners in scoring position, because A-Rod had a solo home run this last series, and it was after they had been eliminated. 57 ABs with runners in scoring position and no RBIs to speak of? I don't care of that's a small sample size, it's alarming for a player of his caliber.

can't handle the pressure...

[shaun]

No, the stat he quoted was with runners in scoring position, because A-Rod had a solo home run this last series, and it was after they had been eliminated. 57 ABs with runners in scoring position and no RBIs to speak of? I don't care of that's a small sample size, it's alarming for a player of his caliber.I had to look it up because I'm bored at work and that number didn't make any sense.

His last postseason RBI with w/ runners in scoring position was in Game 2 of the LDS in 2004 (Bottom 12th, double scored Miguel Cairo from 2B). He did have 2 RBI in Game 3 of the 2004 LCS in which Jeter scored from 1B twice but they obviously don't count.

The 57 is definitely not for runners in scoring position and his active streak is only at 15. You can check out box scores here...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/

[Kurosawa Fan]

I had to look it up because I'm bored at work and that number didn't make any sense.

His last postseason RBI with w/ runners in scoring position was in Game 2 of the LDS in 2004 (Bottom 12th, double scored Miguel Cairo from 2B). He did have 2 RBI in Game 3 of the 2004 LCS in which Jeter scored from 1B twice but they obviously don't count.

The 57 is definitely not for runners in scoring position and his active streak is only at 15. You can check out box scores here...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/

Well, it was Skip Bayless. Man I hate that guy.

[soitgoes...]

I hope no one comes close to offering what he already turned down. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3091277) $350 million is ridiculous. For anyone. Being locked into contract with a guy who'll be making $30 million+ a year in his forties is laughable. He might be worth that much now, and teams can get away with 4-5 years of paying him that, but when he's 42???

[Kurosawa Fan]

I hope no one comes close to offering what he already turned down. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3091277) $350 million is ridiculous. For anyone. Being locked into contract with a guy who'll be making $30 million+ a year in his forties is laughable. He might be worth that much now, and teams can get away with 4-5 years of paying him that, but when he's 42???

According to ESPN Radio, Boras is justifying it by saying that when he's older, he'll be selling tickets because he'll be close to breaking the HR record, the same way Bonds was still filling seats this season. Still, 10 years at $350 million is ridiculous. The sad part is, even after Tom Hicks showed what a disaster it will become, someone will bite and pay him that kind of money.

[soitgoes...]

Using the Angels, my team, as an example. They happen to be on the top of everyone's list on who will land Arod. The Angels sold out roughly half their games last year. Their attendance was at 3.35 million down from 3.5 million a year ago. One of the tops in MLB. There isn't a whole lot of room for increased revenue from ticket sales. Unless you jack up the prices. The Angels just inked a long term TV package with FSN a year ago, no room for a private YES-like TV deal. Moreno did just purchase a radio station in which to broadcast games, but I can't see a radio station recouping Arod's salary. Financially it doesn't work. Yes he is a power-hitting 3rd baseman, which they could use, but at the risk of hogtying the payroll for years to come? Moreno has publicly said "no" to this. I hope he just isn't trying to out bluff Boras.

[MadMan]

Since A-Rod isn't going to be kicked around by the NYC media anymore and his agent is demanding an insane amount of money for him when he didn't do anything in the post season in NY I don't really like the guy anymore. My issue of SI that came yesterday illustrated just how weak the free agent class is this season. You almost have to have a decent to good farm system to compete in the MLB these days.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I wouldn't be so sure. Seems the Mets are fairly serious about bringing him in. They even sat down and had a discussion with David Wright about his future at 3B.

[Gizmo]

I wouldn't be so sure. Seems the Mets are fairly serious about bringing him in. They even sat down and had a discussion with David Wright about his future at 3B.

I also think the Mets are on of the few teams with the ability to support his ludacris offer, not to mention the fact that he's already settled in NY with a fanbase there. Funny no one seems to mention the fact that A-Rod is still a SS by trade, and that may be an avenue for him as well with Jeter out of the picture.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I also think the Mets are on of the few teams with the ability to support his ludacris offer, not to mention the fact that he's already settled in NY with a fanbase there. Funny no one seems to mention the fact that A-Rod is still a SS by trade, and that may be an avenue for him as well with Jeter out of the picture.

Not for the Mets. They wouldn't put Reyes anywhere else. He'll play third if he stays in New York (with either team, since I'm not convinced the Yankees are totally out of the bidding). But yes, he'd actually be better off moving back to short. He was a better fielder there.

[shaun]

My concern is that Wright and Reyes are not only the face of the franchise but they're both dirt cheap compared to their production for the next 2-3 years. Trading either of them now to make room for ARod would be a colossal mistake.

But if Wright thinks he can handle the switch to 2B defensively and not have a Jeff Kent/Derek Jeter-esque UZR rating in the middle infield, I would be thrilled to have ARod at 3rd for the Mets. That would be one sick infield.

[soitgoes...]

I would be ecstatic to see Arod in the NL. If the Phillies or Mets grab him they'd be in the running for best infield ever. Phillies more so.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I doubt very much they would trade Wright. I was thinking they'd either ask him to move to second or to a corner of the outfield. His trade value would just bring more salary their way, and if they're planning on signing A-Rod, that's something they can't do.

[soitgoes...]

Interesting (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3096412)
He's not that old, 35, and he's proven to still be effective. If he does decide to retire there's going to be a lot of pressure on those young arms to produce for a full season. Then again, I'd imagine this will be a signal for Cashman to go all out for Santana.

[Watashi]

I would expect no less than Cano, Cabrera, and Hughes for Santana.

[shaun]

I would expect no less than Cano, Cabrera, and Hughes for Santana.I don't see them offering even close to that much unless Santana signs an extension prior to any trade and even then I would think Cano is pretty much untouchable as long as either Hughes or Joba is included.

Hughes or Joba / Ian Kennedy / Melky Cabrera

If the Yankees are smart, they'd try to offer up Wang instead of Hughes/Joba but the Twins probably wouldn't go for it.

[soitgoes...]

'roids (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3096834)
That explains why Guillen gets the Hulk Rage on occassion. As if most of us couldn't have guessed.

[DSNT]

Not surprised about Matt Williams. He went from a slim rookie to a hulk in the 90s.

[MadMan]

Greg Maddox is the man. He won his 17th Golden Glove this year. That's just crazy awesome. I think 2008 will be his last season though.

[Ezee E]

How do the Rockies, who had the best fielding percentage in MLB History, not get one person with the Golden Glove?

[DSNT]

How do the Rockies, who had the best fielding percentage in MLB History, not get one person with the Golden Glove?
No kidding. Tulowitzk was far and away the best SS in MLB this year. How did Rollins get the nod over him?

[shaun]

Because Gold Gloves are generally a joke and have no bearing on how good a fielder someone actually is. They don't use metrics at all. I mean, Derek Jeter won one and he's one of the worst defensive shortstops of the past 10 years.

Best UZR ratings for 2007...

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/best_and_worst_of_2007_uzr/

1B
AL - Kotchman
NL - Helton

2B
AL - Ellis
NL - Utley

SS
AL - Pena
NL - Reyes

3B
AL - Inge
NL - Feliz

LF
AL - All AL LFers Suck
NL - Soriano

CF
AL - Sizemore
NL - Rowand

RF
AL - Ordonez
NL - Victorino

[Benny Profane]

No kidding. Tulowitzk was far and away the best SS in MLB this year. How did Rollins get the nod over him?

Well, I don't get to see Tulowitzki play very often, but I get to see Rollins play every night, and he is a pretty amazing shortstop, so it's not like he's an unworthy winner.

Gold Gloves awards are totally arbitrary anyway.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I was hoping Granderson would get one. Bummer. I think he was more worthy than Torii Hunter this season. That was a reputation win methinks. Granderson was amazing in center this season. Some of his catches were jaw-dropping. He's not the strongest at assists, but with his range and athletic ability, it makes up for it.

EDIT: And Pudge didn't really deserve one this year. His steals-against stats were way down from years prior. That was also a reputation win.

[Benny Profane]

Steals against has as much to do with pitchers as it does catchers.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Steals against has as much to do with pitchers as it does catchers.

True, but he has basically the same pitchers this season as last. Not only that, but being someone who watched well over 100 of the Tigers games, he has slowed quite a bit, and isn't as agile. He's consistent, and it's not like he's totally undeserving (plus I don't get to watch many other catchers in action, so I don't know how good his competition is), but I'm surprised that no one else was good enough to steal the award from him.

[Benny Profane]

There were some changes to the staff due to injury, but overall agreed that a lot of it is based on reputation. Not watching too many AL games, I can't say who would be more worthy, either.

[Watashi]

Why the HELL are the Marlins trying to trade Miguel Cabrera? Not only trade him, but to get "prospects" in return. The dude is only 24 years old and is a future MVPer. He hasn't even hit his peak yet!

I swear, the Marlins are the dumbest sports organization ever. I would be insulted if I was a fan.

[Ezee E]

Why the HELL are the Marlins trying to trade Miguel Cabrera? Not only trade him, but to get "prospects" in return. The dude is only 24 years old and is a future MVPer. He hasn't even hit his peak yet!

I swear, the Marlins are the dumbest sports organization ever. I would be insulted if I was a fan.
It would be incredibly frustrating. Two World Series, then bottom of the barrel. Yuck.

[shaun]

It doesn't make any sense. Cabrera is an awful third baseman and is about to get very expensive through arbitration but move him to 1B or LF and up your league lowest payroll a bit. It's not like Mike Jacobs or Josh Willingham are anything special.

What they should have done was trade Dontrelle Willis when some GM could've been convinced to give up a ton for him. By now people have mostly caught on that he's not very good.

People complain about the big budget clubs all the time but an owner like Jeff Loria who puts a crap team on the field, takes in the largest net profit of any club in majors ($45 million, 50% higher than his payroll), and still demands public funding for a ballpark are the much bigger detriments to the game, in my opinion.

[Watashi]

Cabrera is an awful third baseman

Um, yeah. I stopped reading after here.

[shaun]

Um, yeah. I stopped reading after here.You think he plays a good 3B? UZR Rating of -28 (worst of any 3B in the majors) and 23 Errors on the year.

He's a great hitter. He butchers the position in the field though.

[Watashi]

You think he plays a good 3B? UZR Rating of -28 (worst of any 3B in the majors) and 23 Errors on the year.

He's a great hitter. He butchers the position in the field though.

He's great no matter where you play him. Jeter isn't good defensively, but I would still take him and Cabrera on a team over Wright and Reyes immediately (though some would disagree).

[shaun]

He's great no matter where you play him.Gross. Can you play David Ortiz at short and call him a great SS? Prince Fielder in CF? Same applies. Despite them all being fantastic batters, at what point does one's defensive shortcomings no longer make them "great" at their position?
Jeter isn't good defensively, but I would still take him and Cabrera on a team over Wright and Reyes immediately (though some would disagree).I don't know what to say to that. I'm pretty sure most GMs would take your trade offer though, even Brian Cashman probably would if he didn't have to deal with the backlash of trading the Yankee Captain Legend.

[Ezee E]

He's great no matter where you play him. Jeter isn't good defensively, but I would still take him and Cabrera on a team over Wright and Reyes immediately (though some would disagree).
How about Wright and Jeter?

[soitgoes...]

He's great no matter where you play him. Jeter isn't good defensively, but I would still take him and Cabrera on a team over Wright and Reyes immediately (though some would disagree).
He's a great hitter no matter where you play him, but he'd be of better value if he played a position where he wasn't such a defesive liability.

[Watashi]

Gross.

You called him an awful third baseman. Not an awful defensive third baseman. If truly being a defensive wizard makes you "great", then Doug Mientkiewicz would be a "great" first basemen. The Marlins need to build around this guy instead of loading their team with prospects that may or may not pan out.

[shaun]

You called him an awful third baseman. Not an awful defensive third baseman. And he is. If you hadn't condescendingly "stopped reading after here", you might have gotten to the point where I advocated moving him to 1B or LF, where he'd be less of a defensive liability and ultimately a more productive member of his team.

[DSNT]

You called him an awful third baseman. Not an awful defensive third baseman. If truly being a defensive wizard makes you "great", then Doug Mientkiewicz would be a "great" first basemen. The Marlins need to build around this guy instead of loading their team with prospects that may or may not pan out.
Truth be told, I would trade Cabrera if I were the Marlins. Like Shaun said, his defense is getting atrocious. He's not yet a Ryan Braun, but he's getting close. Good hitting at LF and 1B is much easier to come by. They won't be able to afford to pay him within a year or two, and they've proven that they can get the most out of their prospects.

As much as I hate to see it, knowing their attendance figures, I don't blame the Marlins for auctioning their players every year. They should probably move because that city doesn't support them nearly enough.

I wanted Granderson too, KF, but he'll get his.

[Watashi]

Lidge to the Phillies (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10458736)

Lidge goes from one hitter-friendly park to another. Myers was good closing for them last year, don't see why they would trade for a shaky closer over him.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Lidge to the Phillies (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10458736)

Lidge goes from one hitter-friendly park to another. Myers was good closing for them last year, don't see why they would trade for a shaky closer over him.

Lidge won't close for anyone. They want him for middle relief. The price tag wasn't very high, but I'm still not sure why the Phillies would want him.

[Watashi]

Lidge won't close for anyone. They want him for middle relief. The price tag wasn't very high, but I'm still not sure why the Phillies would want him.

The article had the Phillies GM calling Lidge one of the "elite closers in the game". I'm pretty sure they are making him their closer. Which is a dumb move. I rather have Flash Gordon over him.

[Benny Profane]

Lidge to the Phillies (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10458736)

Lidge goes from one hitter-friendly park to another. Myers was good closing for them last year, don't see why they would trade for a shaky closer over him.

Thank God you're not the Phillies GM.

They need a starting pitcher, badly. If Myers were a free agent he'd be the best one on the market, and they already have him signed for 3/24, which is a bargain compared to the slop that's available. Relievers are much easier to acquire. They gave up nothing for a guy who struck out 12 per 9 and had a BAA of under .225. From all reports, his stuff after he came off the DL was downright nasty.

It's a gamble, but a good one. If it doesn't work out, he's a free agent after this year and they say bah-bye. But if they paid one of the crappy starting pitchers left on the market, they'd be stuck with him for at least 3, more likely 4.

They're team with Myers as a starter and Lidge as a closer looks a hell of a lot better than Silva (for example) as a starter and Myers as a closer, both in talent and payroll.

[Benny Profane]

Lidge won't close for anyone. They want him for middle relief. The price tag wasn't very high, but I'm still not sure why the Phillies would want him.

Absolutely he is the closer next year.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Absolutely he is the closer next year.

Have fun. Unless his psyche undergoes a complete rejuvenation coming to Philly, you'll be tearing your hair out on a weekly basis.

[Benny Profane]

Have fun. Unless his psyche undergoes a complete rejuvenation coming to Philly, you'll be tearing your hair out on a weekly basis.

What do you know about his psyche?

[shaun]

Lidge's season numbers were very good despite being all over the map on a month to month basis. If they can stomach his swings, he's a much better option at closer than a 40 year old Gordon and his rapidly approaching mediocrity or Myers, who's above average and should probably be starting.

And really if it doesn't work out at closer, he'll be a fantastic setup man and they didn't give up much. Great trade for the Phillies.

[Kurosawa Fan]

What do you know about his psyche?

Ever since that home run he gave up to Pujols in the postseason, he's been like Glass Joe. He can't close an automatic door. He's been less than a shadow of himself, he's like a Picasso painting of himself. You can't even recognize him anymore. He doesn't have the mentality to shut down opponents in a one-run game. In the last 2 seasons he has 14 blown saves. That's more than Todd Jones for crying out loud, and part of each season Lidge lost his job as a closer. Jones has 12 in the last 2 seasons closing all season long. He can help out in middle relief, but in an unforgiving town like Philly, he's a terrible choice for closer.

I'm not saying that Meyers won't be better off starting for the Phillies, but Lidge isn't the answer as a closer.

[Kurosawa Fan]

As a bit more evidence, look at his game logs from last season (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=5102). After sucking the first few games, they removed him from the closer role. He gradually got his ERA down from 10.13 to 2.21. They then moved him back to closer. His ERA went back up to the mid to high 3's, where it stayed for the rest of the season, and the guy couldn't convert more than 5 saves in a row without blowing one. Again, as a middle reliever he'll put in quality innings, but he just doesn't handle the pressure of a closer very well, and that usually has to do with mentality, or psyche.

[Benny Profane]

Ever since that home run he gave up to Pujols in the postseason, he's been like Glass Joe. He can't close an automatic door. He's been less than a shadow of himself, he's like a Picasso painting of himself. You can't even recognize him anymore. He doesn't have the mentality to shut down opponents in a one-run game.

In 32 appearances in 2007 in a one run game, Brad Lidge has a BAA of .198 and an OPSA of .647.

I just hate that whenever any pitcher struggles sometimes, I have to read about his mental makeup and it's usually from some writer that's playing armchair psychiatrist. I'm always hesitant when I hear there's mental questions about a player.

What happened to having a string of bad games? Bad mechanics? Pitching through injuries? Is Trevor Hoffman in a fragile mental state b/c of the Colorado game?

I just find it hard to believe that someone is as successful as he is for so long, but is a mental time bomb waiting to happen.

Lidge could have 2 good months pitching, and then he gives up a base hit after someone gets on, and people are like "What a head case".

[Kurosawa Fan]

Perhaps calling out his mental state is the wrong way to approach it, but I think there's a certain mentality that goes with closing successfully. Like I showed in the link of his game logs, Lidge was a better pitcher as middle relief. When he's the one chosen to shut the door, he's spotty and inaccurate. And it had nothing to do with his stint on the DL. He had already worked his ERA to 2.34 in middle relief before the DL, which then went up to 3.36 by seasons end.

[Kurosawa Fan]

And that was just last season. Look at his game log from 2006 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6913&year=2006) and tell me you want this guy as a closer. I just feel that if Lidge struggles out of the gate, something he's done since that playoff disaster, Philly will start booing and Lidge won't recover without losing his job as the closer. Perhaps I'll be wrong, and I hope I am for your sake, but his history doesn't bode well, even in a relatively friendly, laid-back baseball town like Houston.

[Benny Profane]

And that was just last season. Look at his game log from 2006 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6913&year=2006) and tell me you want this guy as a closer. I just feel that if Lidge struggles out of the gate, something he's done since that playoff disaster, Philly will start booing and Lidge won't recover without losing his job as the closer. Perhaps I'll be wrong, and I hope I am for your sake, but his history doesn't bode well, even in a relatively friendly, laid-back baseball town like Houston.

Why would I be concerned about 2006 when there is much more relevant data to go by in 2007?

His worst month last year came when he was a set-up man. The year as a whole is up and down, to me, it doesn't matter what the role is. When you go in the game, you're supposed to get guys out.

Again, they gave up nothing to get him, they can let him go after '08, and they improved their staff without spending a ton of money on a crappy free agent. It's always a gamble, but this is a great move.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Again, they gave up nothing to get him, they can let him go after '08, and they improved their staff without spending a ton of money on a crappy free agent. It's always a gamble, but this is a great move.

I mentioned that the price tag was small and that he'd be good as middle relief. So basically we're quibbling over whether he'll be a good closer. Time will tell (you that I'm right). :P

[DSNT]

Lidge has been through the ringer, no doubt, but the talent is still there. I think with a change in scenery he can retain his status as a dominant closer.

Breaking News: 11 Free Agents will be in the Mitchell Report.

Here's the complete list. (http://www.mlb4u.com/freeagency.php) Speculate away.

My guesses in a sec.

[DSNT]

Okay. I figure the names have to be big in order to make the report. Plus there are going to be some pitchers. Either way, I'm speculating on big players because it's more fun that way.

Already Known:
Jose Guillen

Highly Likely:
Barry Bonds
Sammy Sosa

Possible Shockers:
Alex Rodriguez
Roger Clemens

My remaining guesses:
Bartolo Colon
Steve Finley
Cliff Floyd
Julio Franco
Javy Lopez
Mike Lowell
Ruben Sierra

Probably going to be more pitchers, but oh well.

[shaun]

Current list of Free Agents...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents

Given:
Barry Bonds
Sammy Sosa
Jose Guillen
Mike Cameron

Wild Speculation:
Shawn Green
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Aaron Boone
Eric Milton
Mike Piazza

I don't think there's any chance ARod is on the list. Boras is connected enough to know if there's a possibility of him being on the list and he wouldn't have turned down $240 million from the Yankees if there was.

[Benny Profane]

Clemens has been suspected for years now.

[shaun]

http://thesteroidera.blogspot.com/2006/08/list-of-steroid-hgh-users-in-baseball.html

Old site but they have some information on the Clemens/Pettitte thing.


The Story: Pettitte was one of the redacted names from the Jason Grimsley Affidavit. In the affidavit, Grimsley told investigators he obtained amphetamines, anabolic steroids and hGH from a person recommended to him by Brian McNamee, strength and conditioning coach of Pettitte and Roger Clemens. Grimsley later named Pettitte specifically as a user of ‘performance-enhancing drugs.’ Pettitte’s name was revealed in an Oct. 1, 2006 Los Angeles Times Article entitled Clemens Is Named in Drug Affidavit.

[Spinal]

Clemens has been suspected for years now.

Yeah, I don't see how Clemens would be a shocker. That actually seems quite likely to me.

[Watashi]

Boone, Finley, and Lopez should be givens.

[chrisnu]

Gagne.

[Spinal]

Todd Jones

[Kurosawa Fan]

Todd Jones

That's his enhanced performance???

[Spinal]

That's his enhanced performance???

:lol:

[shaun]

Edge of your seat Chan Ho Park news!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3101211

He hasn’t even been a decent pitcher in 6 years. Obviously a good signing.

Maybe it’s one of those token deals that clubs give out so a player can retire with the club they had most of their success with, like the Emmitt Smith deal… except in this case, it’s for Chan Ho Park.

[chrisnu]

I HATE OUR FUCKING PITCHING STAFF!!!!! :evil::evil::evil::evil::evil: :evil:

Crock of shit. Try bringing in some real pitchers.

[Raiders]

Brady Anderson

[Spinal]

Brady Anderson

Next thing you'll be telling me that Jose Canseco was juicing.

[MadMan]

Mitchell needs to stop stalling and just release the damn report already. I'm tired of waiting. How much more time does he need to confirm much of what will go into it? I need a juicy (the pun is un-intentional heh) story coming out of baseball, because the free agent market is pretty weak right now.

[Spinal]

The Devil Rays are changing to the Rays? Laaaaaaaaaaaame. What a crappy franchise.

[MadMan]

The Devil Rays are changing to the Rays? Laaaaaaaaaaaame. What a crappy franchise.They will always be the Devil Rays to me. Anyways they'll still suck. A name change won't fix that.

[DSNT]

Mitchell needs to stop stalling and just release the damn report already. I'm tired of waiting. How much more time does he need to confirm much of what will go into it? I need a juicy (the pun is un-intentional heh) story coming out of baseball, because the free agent market is pretty weak right now.
Oh, it'll be juicy alright, but he'll wait until the end of the year, probably after most of the free agents are done signing.

What I'm wondering is whether Selig will suspend all those named in 2008. That'll make for an interesting first few months of the season.

I forgot about Boone. He's definitely a given.

[MadMan]

Oh, it'll be juicy alright, but he'll wait until the end of the year, probably after most of the free agents are done signing.

What I'm wondering is whether Selig will suspend all those named in 2008. That'll make for an interesting first few months of the season.

I forgot about Boone. He's definitely a given.Oh, I see. Nuts. I think Selig will be forced by public pressure to suspend those named. Although the teams and the players association will have a different opinion, of course.

[Kurosawa Fan]

What I'm wondering is whether Selig will suspend all those named in 2008. That'll make for an interesting first few months of the season.


At this point I'm pretty sure he has to. He painted himself into that corner by setting up this investigation. Without suspensions for those proved guilty, what was the purpose of it all? Just to embarrass the athletes? Selig may be slimy, but I'd expect a good portion of those named to get suspensions, especially if they were implicated after 2005.

[soitgoes...]

Hilarious (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3100957)

Whoever was working the scoreboard should get a high five right before getting canned. Seriously though, this girl had to skip the rest of the semester because she was traumatized by that? Wait until she gets to college and actually picks up an STD, then she'll know trauma.

[shaun]

Pedroia and Braun win ROY.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071112&content_id=2298624&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Braun edges out Tulo by 2 points. Braun had the better year at the plate obviously but the two are light years apart defensively, enough to give Tulowitzki a much higher WARP.

OPS+
Tulowitzki - 108
Braun - 153

WARP3
Tulowitzki - 10.3
Braun - 4.8

[Ezee E]

Pedroia and Braun win ROY.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071112&content_id=2298624&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Braun edges out Tulo by 2 points. Braun had the better year at the plate obviously but the two are light years apart defensively, enough to give Tulowitzki a much higher WARP.

OPS+
Tulowitzki - 108
Braun - 153

WARP3
Tulowitzki - 10.3
Braun - 4.8
I'm guessing Prince Fielder will be winning MVP then.

[shaun]

Dustin Pedroia, Red Sox 24 4 — 132
Delmon Young, Devil Rays 3 12 5 56
Brian Bannister, Royals 1 8 7 36
Daisuke Matsuzaka, Red Sox — 2 6 12
Reggie Willits, Angels — 2 5 11
Hideki Okajima, Red Sox — — 3 3
Josh Fields, White Sox — — 1 1
Joakim Soria, Royals — — 1

Ryan Braun, Brewers 17 14 1 128
Troy Tulowitzki, Rockies 15 17 — 126
Hunter Pence, Astros — — 15 15
Chris Young, Diamondbacks — — 10 10
Kyle Kendrick, Phillies — 1 4 7
Yunel Escobar, Atlanta — — 1 1
James Loney, Dodgers — — 1 1

Okajima gets no respect. Or probably more accurately, middle relievers get no respect. He should have been above Dice for sure.

[soitgoes...]

Posada signs. (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AoN4tD84hdOex0lQI1KJ XPE5nYcB?slug=ap-yankees-posada-rivera&prov=ap&type=lgns)

[Kurosawa Fan]

The Tigers traded INF Omar Infante and cash for OF Jacques Jones. Now, Infante isn't great or anything, but he's a solid sub at almost any position. Meanwhile we got another OF that we don't have room for. Timo Perez showed that he's ready for a full season in the Majors, and then Granderson and Ordonez take the other positions. Plus, we still have Sheffield who can sub out there, as well as Thames. I don't understand this move at all. Where's the bullpen help? I hear we're going to go after Cordero, but that's not a fix. We need some middle relief as well, and some of our "tradeable" players like Infante could be better used solidifying the bullpen.

[Benny Profane]

I'm guessing Prince Fielder will be winning MVP then.

I'm thinking he'll place third behind Rollins and Holliday.

[shaun]

Timo Perez showed that he's ready for a full season in the MajorsBetter late than never I guess.

I can't believe he's actually still around. He was sucking up the Mets' 4th OF position back in 2001 and to still be in the majors at 33 with his skills is pretty impressive.


Posada signs.That's a lot of money and years for a 38 year old catcher with a career year. I guess they're paying him for past contributions and not future ones.

[Kurosawa Fan]

That's a lot of money and years for a 38 year old catcher with a career year. I guess they're paying him for past contributions and not future ones.

Yeah, I couldn't be happier about this signing. It'll hurt the Yankees in the long run, and that's music to my ears.

[shaun]

Sabathia edges out Beckett for the Cy.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071113&content_id=2299400&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

I think it’s probably the closest the top two candidates have ever been statistically. You can’t really go wrong with either choice, though I probably would have taken Beckett, but just barely.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I think Sabathia was more deserving, but you're right, either would have been a great choice.

[shaun]

Yeah Beckett had marginally better stats in a tougher division but Sabathia did it in more innings. Flip a coin.

28 ballots are supposed to be cast for the AL award. The real issue I see is that Beckett was left off 2 ballots altogether and Sabathia was left off 1. How can these people ever be allowed to vote again?

2007 AL Cy Young Award Voting
Pitcher, Club 1st 2nd 3rd Points
C.C. Sabathia, CLE 19 8 119
Josh Beckett, BOS 8 14 4 86
John Lackey, LAA 1 5 16 36
Fausto Carmona, CLE 1 4 7
Eric Bedard, BAL 1 1
Roy Halladay, TOR 1 1
Johan Santana, MIN 1 1
Justin Verlander, DET 1 1

[Robby P]

Fausto Carmona probably had a better case for the Cy Young than Josh Beckett. Then again, that's mostly because of the latter's five missed starts.

Sabathia would've been my pick as well, but his less-publicized teammate pitched just as well this season.

[MadMan]

Sabathia edges out Beckett for the Cy.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071113&content_id=2299400&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

I think it’s probably the closest the top two candidates have ever been statistically. You can’t really go wrong with either choice, though I probably would have taken Beckett, but just barely.See I would have voted for Beckett, but yeah I agree that Sabaitha was just as deserving.

Also I like Jacque Jones. I thought he was a pretty solid player defense and offense wise. I really don't think the Cubs need a solid sub right now. We in fact need what the Tigers need: good bullpen relief. I'd say the Tigers need it more than the Cubs do what with them being a tougher division and all, but Chicago could have used at least one or two really great relievers against the Diamondbacks in the playoffs.

[DSNT]

I probably would have taken Beckett too, but I can't discount his postseason performance. If I had voted a few months ago, eh, I'd still take Beckett, but it would have been closer.

Not that I'm complaining about CC. Anytime a big & tall man wins an award, I'm happy.

[shaun]

Brian Cashman is dumb.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3108883

$15 million per. Zito gets expensive in 09 and beyond but in 08 Rivera would be tied with Zambrano (and Mike Hampton, ha Braves) for the highest pitcher salary in baseball.

Blah blah Hall of Fame closer and all but if you’re paying for future performance, and let’s face it, Rivera hasn’t exactly been underpaid the past 6 years… the smart thing to do is not make a 38 year old reliever coming off his worst season since his rookie year the highest paid pitcher in baseball.

That’s all I’m saying.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I love it. I can't wait until all this money comes back to bite them in two years when both Posada and Rivera are washed up. The luxury tax is going to be brutal.

[Benny Profane]

the Yankees realize it's just money and there is no salary cap, so there is absolutely no penalty for overpaying to be the best possible team you can be.

They could offer him a 1 year $100 million deal and it it wouldn't matter.

If he underperforms then they just overpay for the next guy.

[DSNT]

And now they are talking to A-Rod again. Maybe he'll get his $350 mill after all.

Mo' money, 'mo problems.

[shaun]

If Rivera is a $15m per closer, how does Joe Nathan not get at least that much when his FA turn is up? He's light years better than Rivera at this point and 6 years younger.

And now they are talking to A-Rod again. Maybe he'll get his $350 mill after all.Probably just a ploy by Boras to get other teams to up their offers. They need the Yankees in the mix, or at least the perception of the Yankees being in the mix, in order to get top dollar.

[DSNT]

Wedge and Melvin managers of the year. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3110184)

I'm okay with both, but I really question why Charlie Manuel is 2nd above Hurdle. I've always been under the impression that Manuel's team almost made the playoffs despite his poor management. The Phil's are a talented team and I thought they underachieved.

[Benny Profane]

Wedge and Melvin managers of the year. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3110184)

I'm okay with both, but I really question why Charlie Manuel is 2nd above Hurdle. I've always been under the impression that Manuel's team almost made the playoffs despite his poor management. The Phil's are a talented team and I thought they underachieved.

Phils have 3 potential MVP candidates, and then you add Burrell and the soon-to-be-way-overpaid Rowand to the mix and the lineup is quite lethal.

However, pitching-wise, they had one of the worst ERA's of any team to make the playoffs, ever. Their bullpen stunk most of the year with Myers, Madson, and Gordon missing at least two months each and Romero not signed til the middle of the year. They somewhat pulled it together at the end, but it was mostly torture to watch.

Their starting rotation, as any fan of baseball knows, is a joke.

For them to win 89 games like they did, with those boppers, and with that pitching staff, in an inferior National League, sounds about right.

You are right, however, about Charlie Manuel being an inept strategist, although many times his players bailed him out of dumb decisions. It just goes to show you how unimportant the manager position really is if he can place in the top 2.

Did you think Clint Hurdle was a good manager until this year? Did he do anything different this year than he did previously?

[DSNT]

I agree with you about the overall pitching, but the starting rotation seemed at least serviceable. Hamels is one of the best young arms in the league; Kendrick showed some promise at times, and somehow Moyer still finds ways to get people out. The bullpen was pretty rough, however, even though Myers seemed to do an adequate job of closing towards the end of the year.

Living on the east coast, I wasn't exposed to much Rockie baseball before the big streak, but I was very impressed with Hurdle's strategy in managing those games (aside from putting Jorge Julio in any situation). I also think it reflects well on the management team when a team defense is that good.

Edit: found some numbers:

First 6 innings:

4.83 ERA, 1.42 WHIP

Last 3 innings:

4.53 ERA, 1.51 WHIP

Okay, that's pretty bad, but I think guys like Eaton, Lieber and Garcia really blew up those stats.

[MadMan]

Wedge and Melvin managers of the year. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3110184)

I'm okay with both, but I really question why Charlie Manuel is 2nd above Hurdle. I've always been under the impression that Manuel's team almost made the playoffs despite his poor management. The Phil's are a talented team and I thought they underachieved.I'm surprised that Yost even got any votes. Partly thanks to him (according to some Brewers fans who post on Icine) he was partly to blame for the second half collapse. Glad to see that Lou got some votes but at the same time he the organization did spend millions of dollars to get good players. I'll wait until after three seasons to evalute the job he's doing.

I'm sort of meh on Wedge but I agree that Melvin deserves his award. What he did with the Diamondbacks was pretty remarkable.

[soitgoes...]

Cabrera to Angels? (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071114&content_id=2300775&vkey=news_ana&fext=.jsp&c_id=ana)
Kendrick is the one of three players I'd wish the Angels would consider untouchable. I'm torn. :confused:

[Kurosawa Fan]

Cabrera to Angels? (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071114&content_id=2300775&vkey=news_ana&fext=.jsp&c_id=ana)
Kendrick is the one of three players I'd wish the Angels would consider untouchable. I'm torn. :confused:

Well, in the Angels defense, he has been slightly injury prone. If he continues to be injury prone, now is the perfect time to trade him. It's a risk, but when you're getting Cabrera in return, it's a pretty good risk to take.


In other news, A-Rod will be staying with the Yankees. They would only deal with him if he showed up without Boras and negotiated on his own, and he did. Looks like it will be 10/$270 million. How bad a hit is this for Boras? Slimy fuck.

[shaun]

Peavy obviously deserved this one.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071114&content_id=2300731&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[Kurosawa Fan]

Peavy obviously deserved this one.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071114&content_id=2300731&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Yeah, that was a forgone conclusion. I'm glad Webb didn't sneak in there and steal his award. He had a few great stretches for sure, but his overall season was a bit inconsistent.

[soitgoes...]

Bonds Indicted. (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-bondsindicted&prov=ap&type=lgns)

[Kurosawa Fan]

Bonds Indicted. (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-bondsindicted&prov=ap&type=lgns)

I heard something rather funny while listening to ESPN Radio a few weeks ago. They were talking about inside info from GMs about where they thought various free agents would end up. I guess 3 different GMs, when asked who they thought Bonds would be playing for, responded that he would be in jail. Seems perhaps they'll be correct.

[soitgoes...]

I heard something rather funny while listening to ESPN Radio a few weeks ago. They were talking about inside info from GMs about where they thought various free agents would end up. I guess 3 different GMs, when asked who they thought Bonds would be playing for, responded that he would be in jail. Seems perhaps they'll be correct.
I'm interested in how this plays out. I would think that'll be the end of Bonds. No team, however skeptical they might have been before, will touch him now. I can't wait for the day when Bonds is out of the news completely, though.

[DSNT]

I just got home from work. Anything interesting happen today?

[Kurosawa Fan]

I just got home from work. Anything interesting happen today?

A-Rod will be a Yankee, Peavey won the Cy Young unanimously, and Bonds was indicted. Just another day in baseball I suppose. :P

[soitgoes...]

It seems Mariano Rivera is trying to get a fourth year added to the 3/$45 million deal the Yankees are offering. I think the Yankees would be silly to pass up securing Rivera until he's 41. Especially at the rock bottom price of $15 million a year or $200,000 for every inning he'll pitch. [/sarcasm]
Try and wrap your brain around that. For 5-10 minutes of work he'll be earning 4 times the median household income for an entire year in the US.

[DSNT]

A-Rod will be a Yankee, Peavey won the Cy Young unanimously, and Bonds was indicted. Just another day in baseball I suppose. :P
2 of those things are really awesome.

[Kurosawa Fan]

It seems Mariano Rivera is trying to get a fourth year added to the 3/$45 million deal the Yankees are offering. I think the Yankees would be silly to pass up securing Rivera until he's 41. Especially at the rock bottom price of $15 million a year or $200,000 for every inning he'll pitch. [/sarcasm]
Try and wrap your brain around that. For 5-10 minutes of work he'll be earning 4 times the median household income for an entire year in the US.

Nauseating.

[DSNT]

I'm really surprised this happened now. I'm thinking someone must have turned on Bonds. The obvious would be Greg Anderson, but it could have been someone like Conte. Or maybe even someone from the Giants organization now that Barry has been fired. Or maybe the Mitchell report found a few things.

Screw Stephon Marbury. This is going to be fun.

[shaun]

Wow on Bonds.
It seems Mariano Rivera is trying to get a fourth year added to the 3/$45 million deal the Yankees are offering. I think the Yankees would be silly to pass up securing Rivera until he's 41. Especially at the rock bottom price of $15 million a year or $200,000 for every inning he'll pitch. [/sarcasm]Now now... let's be fair. He'll forego the 4th year for a 3/52 deal.

That's right. A reliever that pitches 2-3 innings per week wants to be the highest paid pitcher in baseball. The difference between him and Joe Borowski is at most 1-2 wins per year. I'd pee myself with laughter before I offered that contract.

[soitgoes...]

I'd tell him to fuck off and try to find a contract remotely close to what the Yankees are offering. But they won't. They'll continue to bend over for these guys, and in the process drive up the benchmark for what other players are going to want. There's a good solid 10 relievers that had better years than Rivera had last year, only a couple of which are in his age group.

[Spinal]

OK, Yankees. You're about to re-sign A-rod. Now, we don't want to hear anymore whining about how the best player in baseball isn't good enough for you.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I just read on the bottom of the screen on ESPN that Greg Anderson was ordered to be released from prison today. Guess the mystery about new evidence is over.

[MadMan]

Peavy obviously deserved this one.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071114&content_id=2300731&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlbBiggest no brainer of the entire season.

Yeah I'm wondering what new evidence the government uncovered to indict Bonds. Looks like OJ will lose the athelete on trial spotlight.

[DSNT]

I just read on the bottom of the screen on ESPN that Greg Anderson was ordered to be released from prison today. Guess the mystery about new evidence is over.
Took him long enough to figure out that jail sucks.

Edit: Looks like Anderson was just been released because his testimony was no longer needed. His lawyer is saying he hasn't cooperated.

[Ivan Drago]

Now I wonder what they'll do to his home run record.

[soitgoes...]

Now I wonder what they'll do to his home run record.
First thing we'll see is an indefinite suspension. My guess is that the other stuff won't come until after a conviction.

[shaun]

Now I wonder what they'll do to his home run record.Nothing, since steroids weren't against the rules until 2004 and that was well after his grand jury testimony.

[Ivan Drago]

Nothing, since steroids weren't against the rules until 2004 and that was well after his grand jury testimony.

He still said he never knowingly used steroids in court. What was he indicted for? Perjury.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Nothing will happen to his records, even if he were to get the maximum 30 years in prison. It would be too big a mess, and where would the league draw the line? It'll just be a tainted record.

[shaun]

He still said he never knowingly used steroids in court. What was he indicted for? Perjury.And if proven, one could reasonably assume that he knowingly took steroids prior to 2003, when it was not against the rules.

He can go to jail for 5-10 for perjury but they'd still have no basis to touch his records.

[Kurosawa Fan]

He's actually looking at a max of 30 years in prison (though he'll never receive the max sentence). It's a 5 year max for each of his 4 perjury charges and a 10 year max for his obstruction of justice charge.

[MadMan]

I don't think he'll get much prison time. However I'd rather see his records thrown out, although as KF mentioned that's probably unlikely to happen.

[soitgoes...]

It really doesn't matter. Home run records are so watered down now because of steroids and other performance enhancers that no one truly cares. Every year it seems 2-4 players pass the once sacred 500 home run mark. When a player doesn't make it to 50 HRs in a season it seems flukey. When McGwire hit home run number 62, that was a big deal. When Bonds hit number 71, not so much. It became so blasé.

[Benny Profane]

I don't care if Bonds goes down. I just find the whole thing comical at this point.

If you take a few steps back, you can see that this is all so silly and funny.

I almost expect the federal prosecutor to put Bonds on the stand and emotionally cry out:

"You were my hero. You were a God to me. You've ruined it...you've ruined my faith in heroes!" before storming into his bedroom and slamming the door.

HE'S A FUCKING BASEBALL PLAYER NOT PABLO ESCOBAR.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Oh it's totally comical. When the president takes time to release a statement about him, you know it's turned into a joke. But it'll still be nice to see him go down after years of being so arrogant when everyone on this earth knew he was cheating.

[Benny Profane]

Victor Conte, the creator and distributor of illegal steroids, received a one year prison term. (Tyrone Crackdealer gets about 10 years, to show you how bad the Feds think steroids are). In fairness, Bonds should do about an hour in jail and be done with it. And that will be worth the millions of dollars spent on this two-year investigation.

Your federal government, at work(?).

[Scar]

Crack is wack.

[soitgoes...]

Victor Conte, the creator and distributor of illegal steroids, received a one year prison term. (Tyrone Crackdealer gets about 10 years, to show you how bad the Feds think steroids are). In fairness, Bonds should do about an hour in jail and be done with it. And that will be worth the millions of dollars spent on this two-year investigation.

Your federal government, at work(?).
I think you're missing the point. Right now its not directly about whether he took steroids or not, its perjury and obstruction of justice thats going to take him down. The fact that he did those things helped draw the investigation out, thus increasing the amount of time and money spent on it. The Federal government isn't going to give Bonds a slap on the wrist for this. They're going to make an example out of him. The Federal government has a super high conviction rate, well over 90%. Bonds is screwed.

[soitgoes...]

I wonder if Boras might be losing his grip. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3115789) Kenny Rogers fired him yesterday too. I think the owners just hate dealing with him and the players are realizing that. I hope. A baseball world with no Bonds or Boras is a world we can all :pritch: in.

Another random thought, how in the world are Buffett and Arod "friends?"

[Kurosawa Fan]

We need to ax Rosenhaus too. Then I'll get excited.

[Ezee E]

We need to ax Rosenhaus too. Then I'll get excited.
He still makes crazy deals happen.

[Benny Profane]

I think you're missing the point. Right now its not directly about whether he took steroids or not, its perjury and obstruction of justice thats going to take him down. The fact that he did those things helped draw the investigation out, thus increasing the amount of time and money spent on it. The Federal government isn't going to give Bonds a slap on the wrist for this. They're going to make an example out of him. The Federal government has a super high conviction rate, well over 90%. Bonds is screwed.

Believe me, I get the point, and I agree that Bonds should be punished for lying. His lawyers even instructed him on what to say and he arrogantly chose to flat-out lie instead.

I'm just saying the whole thing is ridiculous, and the timing of the announcement is very suspect.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yay for A-Rod.

[shaun]

I'm only surprised that it wasn't unanimous.

[Watashi]

Jon Garland gets traded to the Angels for Orlando Cabrera.

Horrible move for the Halos.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Jon Garland gets traded to the Angels for Orlando Cabrera.

Horrible move for the Halos.

Agreed. Cabrera is such an underrated SS. Why he's a journeyman is something that will always puzzle me.

[Benny Profane]

Cabrera's career OPS comes out to .723. That's pretty weak. And he's on the wrong side of 30.

He's a good glove with decent speed, but he's nothing special. Angels get a fairly young pitcher who won 18 games two years in a row in '05 and '06. I'd say they got the upper hand, easily.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Cabrera's career OPS comes out to .723. That's pretty weak. And he's on the wrong side of 30.

He's a good glove with decent speed, but he's nothing special. Angels get a fairly young pitcher who won 18 games two years in a row in '05 and '06. I'd say they got the upper hand, easily.

Eh, in 2006 his ERA was 4.51. Those 18 wins had more to do with great run support than his own pitching. In 12 of those 18 wins the Sox scored 6 runs or more, and in 5 of those 12 he gave up at least 5 runs. Seems to me 2005 was an aberration.

And yeah, Cabrera has his faults, but he's not a power hitter. He has 20+ steals in each of the last three years, and the last two his BA has been over .280 and an on-base over .330. He's pretty consistent, and is great with the glove. He may be older, but the Sox got the better end of the deal as far as I'm concerned.

[Benny Profane]

A batting average over 280 and an OBP over 330 is nothing to boast about.

Garland's ERA isn't either, but he's pitched over 190 innings every year since 2002 and he's younger. If the trade is a solid pitcher for a solid hitter, I'll take the pitcher any day, especially since he's younger.

4.51 is exactly the league average for ERA in the AL. The league average for OPS was .760. Cabrera had his best year last year and still was only at .742.

[Kurosawa Fan]

A batting average over 280 and an OBP over 330 is nothing to boast about.

Garland's ERA isn't either, but he's pitched over 190 innings every year since 2002 and he's younger. If the trade is a solid pitcher for a solid hitter, I'll take the pitcher any day, especially since he's younger.

4.51 is exactly the league average for ERA in the AL. The league average for OPS was .760. Cabrera had his best year last year and still was only at .742.

I understand all that, but when you factor in his defense, I'd rather have Cabrera.

[Benny Profane]

Angels also have a logjam of shortstop prospects. Brandon Wood is the #1 prospect in their entire farm system, I believe.

[shaun]

I don't think it makes sense for either team really. Talentwise, I think the Angels make out better with an above average starter for a solid but expensive SS. But now they have no one to play SS (Aybar or Wood? Wood didn't impress in his call up and probably isn't ready) and they didn't really need him in the rotation anyways, except maybe as a minor upgrade for the 5th starter slot.

Chicago could definitely use an upgrade over Juan Uribe but maybe not at the price they paid unless there's some stud minor leaguer they want to move into the rotation.

[chrisnu]

Tom Glavine re-signed with the Braves. Nice. Where he should be to finish his career.

[soitgoes...]

The Angels now have 6 starters, which means one can now be moved. Whether its Weaver or Santana remains to be seen. Before this trade, the 5th spot was Santana's who has been horribly inconsistant. Having Garland as a number 4/5 pitcher strengthens the starting 5 to a point of being best in the league. Both Cabrera and Garland are in contract years, but Garland is 5 years younger. I'd much rather trade Cabrera now, who's coming off one of his best seasons with a .747 OPS, for a 200+ innings a year young starter who'll now be pitching in a pitcher's park.
The Angels can play Izturis at short until Wood is ready, that is if one of the two doesn't get traded. Izturis is basically another Cabrera, plus the guy's money with RISP. I think we should wait to see the off-season through, until we judge this one. For the Angels, I think this is a precursor to a bigger transaction... hopefully.

[shaun]

Tom Glavine re-signed with the Braves. Nice. Where he should be to finish his career.Works for me. We need to stop bandaging the rotation with elderly veterans anyways. Plus, we get the Braves' 1st rounder and a supplemental round selection for losing him.

[soitgoes...]

and they didn't really need him in the rotation anyways, except maybe as a minor upgrade for the 5th starter slot.

Chicago could definitely use an upgrade over Juan Uribe but maybe not at the price they paid unless there's some stud minor leaguer they want to move into the rotation.
I'd hardly consider Garland a "minor upgrade" over Santana. Santana had a 5.92 ERA in 26 starts last year. I would be considered a minor upgrade to that.

If the Sox were looking for an Uribe upgrade they shouldn't have given him a $4.5 million contract already this off-season.

[shaun]

I was thinking Joe Saunders was the 5th. Ervin obviously had a horrible year but he's only 24 and his K/BB and K/9 are good enough to think he's not nearly as bad as he's pitched.

That said, I agree to this looking like a precursor for another trade.

[soitgoes...]

I was thinking Joe Saunders was the 5th. Ervin obviously had a horrible year but he's only 24 and his K/BB and K/9 are good enough to think he's not nearly as bad as he's pitched.

That said, I agree to this looking like a precursor for another trade.
With Santana, its all in his head. He definitely has the "stuff", he's proven that and he's young enough to straighten out. That's why I think the Angels are trying to cover his spot so they can move him.

[Scar]

Chicago made room under their cap so they can get Torrie Hunter.

[Kurosawa Fan]

So is it Rollins or Holliday today? I'd rather see Holliday take it, but I think it's going to be Rollins.

[shaun]

I think Holliday will get it, but really I couldn't complain about Rollins.

I'd make an argument that either Pujols or Wright are just as deserving as either of them but voters tend to choose players that make the postseason.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'd make an argument that either Pujols or Wright are just as deserving as either of them but voters tend to choose players that make the postseason.

I'll give you Wright, but I don't think Pujols is deserving this season. He had a great year, but I'd put Holliday, Rollins, Wright, Reyes, and possibly Utley ahead of him.

[Benny Profane]

I'll give you Wright, but I don't think Pujols is deserving this season. He had a great year, but I'd put Holliday, Rollins, Wright, Reyes, and possibly Utley ahead of him.

Reyes? As in, Jose Reyes?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Reyes? As in, Jose Reyes?

Is this the part where you list a bunch of stats proving me wrong? Because honestly, we can skip it.

[Benny Profane]

Is this the part where you list a bunch of stats proving me wrong? Because honestly, we can skip it.

OK, but that's what voters do. Look at stats.

Let's just say he had a pretty disappointing year. At his own position, Hanley Ramirez outperformed him by a VAST margin. In fact, if the Marlins were anywhere close to contending, Hanley would be mentioned among the leading candidates.

[Kurosawa Fan]

OK, but that's what voters do. Look at stats.

Let's just say he had a pretty disappointing year. At his own position, Hanley Ramirez outperformed him by a VAST margin. In fact, if the Marlins were anywhere close to contending, Hanley would be mentioned among the leading candidates.

His numbers were down a bit from last season, but you just said it yourself, Hanley wasn't on a contending team. Reyes batted .280 and had 78 stolen bases. That's to go along with 119 runs, nearly 200 hits (of which 60 were for extra bases), and a .982 fielding percentage. His speed on the bases drives pitchers crazy when he gets on base. I'm not saying he should be the MVP, but I would have voted for him before Pujols.

My problem isn't with statistics, although I think they're only part of the picture, whereas you look at them as though there's nothing else to take into account. It's just pointless talking to you, because you're very close-minded. You pretend as though the other side of the argument, any argument that isn't your own, is nonsensical. It's tiresome.

[Benny Profane]

It's just pointless talking to you, because you're very close-minded. You pretend as though the other side of the argument, any argument that isn't your own, is nonsensical. It's tiresome.

Totally untrue. All I do is offer my opinion and back it up. I don't pretend to be an expert, this is just a message board debate, and you seem to get very frustrated and sensitive whenever someone disagrees with you online. I can't quite understand it.

[Scar]

I'm with KF on this one....

[Ezee E]

Reyes contributed plenty to his team. The steals alone make him a top player to have in the league, because it does drive teams nuts. I was hoping he'd get to a 100 this year at the pace he started at, but he seemed to slow down.

I'd go Holliday, Rollins, H. Ramirez.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Totally untrue. All I do is offer my opinion and back it up. I don't pretend to be an expert, this is just a message board debate, and you seem to get very frustrated and sensitive whenever someone disagrees with you online. I can't quite understand it.

Yeah, I don't think this is true. So you're telling me it's a coincidence that every chance you've had since our discussion about managers, you've taken the time to point out that managers aren't worth a shit?

This only seems to apply to sports. I've had no problem talking books or films with you, but when it comes to sports you become obstinate and refuse to see another side of the topic.

[shaun]

WARP3, which is Baseball Prospectus' attempt to reconcile a player's worth, including their defense and SB, to a level above the average replacement player...

Reyes - 9.6
Ramirez - 10.9
Rollins - 11.5

I wouldn't put Reyes on the short list for MVP and I'm a Mets fan, but all 3 are definitely elite players. To say that any of them were vastly outperformed is stretching it a bit.

[Benny Profane]

Yeah, I don't think this is true. So you're telling me it's a coincidence that every chance you've had since our discussion about managers, you've taken the time to point out that managers aren't worth a shit?

This only seems to apply to sports. I've had no problem talking books or films with you, but when it comes to sports you become obstinate and refuse to see another side of the topic.


If we're going to put a moratorium on repeated opinions on this board, then it might as well shut down.

[Benny Profane]

shaun, where do you get those numbers from and is there a key that explains them?

[shaun]

Player cards on the Baseball Prospectus site. You can probably find calculation methods for each respective stat on there as well.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/rolliji01.php

There's some controversy over WARP because it uses BP's FRAA defensive metric instead of the much better UZR ratings, but anything that uses something more comprehensive than BA and RBI to measure production is always a good thing.

[Benny Profane]

Phils have back-to-back MVPs.

Congrats to J-Roll.

[Robby P]

Rollins is a poor choice, but not an indefensible one. Either Pujols or Wright should have won the award, and I'd lean toward the former if pushed. Also, Jake Peavy deserved some serious consideration, despite a less-than-stellar September. Of course, since none of those three players' teams made the postseason, their chances were significantly diminished.

Also, I'm not sure UZR is a huge improvement on Davenport's metric. Joe Sheehan wrote an article today that compared three separate defensive measurements. They mostly agreed, or at least pointed in the same general direction. I'm not sure if I fully agree with the weight that the DT's grant towards defensive value, but it's still an imperfect science at this stage.

Lastly, this year was a vast improvement on last season's inexcusable postseason award results. The BBWAA managed to at least correctly pick 3/4 of the major awards, which is more than satisfactory, relatively speaking.

[soitgoes...]

Basically I've come to agree with the person who has more rep, because that's what we're suppose to do, right?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Basically I've come to agree with the person who has more rep, because that's what we're suppose to do, right?

Yes. Yes you are.

[soitgoes...]

Yes. Yes you are.
Jesus. Plus you're a mod. That just about makes you God in my eyes.







:says the atheist:

[Kurosawa Fan]

:says the atheist:

Well then, I'd say I'm about as close as you're gonna get. :P

[shaun]

I'll give you Wright, but I don't think Pujols is deserving this season.I guess this goes back to the argument on whether a player's team needs to make the postseason for them to be considered an 'MVP'.

The Cardinals won 78 games and finished 3rd. Without Pujols, they would compete for all time worst team ever. Seriously, the only other players with more than 400 at bats were David Eckstein and Aaron Miles and they both suck. I’d be hard pressed to name another player in baseball responsible for more of its teams wins. The Phillies only won 11 more games and they had Howard, Utley, Hamels, Rowand, etc...

[Benny Profane]

The Phillies only won 11 more games and they had Howard, Utley, Hamels, Rowand, etc...

True, but the Cardinals played in the worst division in baseball. With the weighted schedule, it's something to consider.

I'm one who thinks that the best player should get the MVP regardless of his team's record. Because then you're judging a season on how good the team's general manager is, or if they avoided the injury bug, etc, all factors out of the individual player's control which muddy up the picture.

[DSNT]

Anyway you slice it, Holliday should have been MVP, but I'm not entirely unhappy that Rollins got it. He's a solid player who always seems to be under the radar, even during his long streak.

[Ezee E]

The Rockies were shit on. Holliday should have that award.

Biased? Of course. But still...

[Ezee E]

I find it funny that Carlos Marmol got a vote. I never heard of him until today. From the looks of it, he's a damn good reliever though.

[DSNT]

I find it funny that Carlos Marmol got a vote. I never heard of him until today. From the looks of it, he's a damn good reliever though.
He's a phenomenal reliever, but that vote was ridiculous. Soriano got a 3rd place vote too, probably from the same guy (Mariotti?). Just like the 2 Detroit guys who gave Maggs first place votes yesterday. Homers like that shouldn't be allowed to vote.

[MadMan]

Chicago made room under their cap so they can get Torrie Hunter.You mean the White Sox, correct? And a link? Cause the last I saw on Yahoo Sports the two teams in hot pursuit of Hunter were the White Sox and the Rangers.

Hmmm I'm sort of leaning in favor of Holiday getting the award as well, although Rollins is a good choice.

[Scar]

You mean the White Sox, correct? And a link? Cause the last I saw on Yahoo Sports the two teams in hot pursuit of Hunter were the White Sox and the Rangers.

Hmmm I'm sort of leaning in favor of Holiday getting the award as well, although Rollins is a good choice.

The Sox, yes. And my source is Randy Shaver (local sports guy/God) talking on the 93x Half-Assed Morning Show.

[shaun]

Dodgers in for Cabrera?


The Marlins want both outfielder Matt Kemp and Class AA left-hander Clayton Kershaw included in a four-player package from the Dodgers. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7466954

Giving up two of the best prospects in baseball would be beyond foolish but if they can swing a deal with only one of them included, I think they have to pull the trigger. He still shouldn’t be playing 3B but he’s obviously a big offensive talent.

And by big I mean good, not fat… which he also is, but that’s not what I meant.

[MadMan]

The Sox, yes. And my source is Randy Shaver (local sports guy/God) talking on the 93x Half-Assed Morning Show.Oh. This doesn't surprise me. While I would have liked the Cubs to get Hunter I'm not so sure we need him. In fact the only area I think the Cubs are seriously lacking in is the bullpen. Our pitching staff should by large keep coming from the farm system, although having veteran pitching certainly helped as well, along with getting A-Soro also.

[Robby P]

I'm pretty sure Kershaw is regarded as untouchable right now, although with Ned Colletti, you never can tell.

I'd be much less hesitant to trade Kemp. He's shown he can hit for a high average, but that atrocious walk rate will catch up sooner or later. Plus, his defense is more suited for a corner outfield spot.

Miguel Cabrera is worth at least what the Marlins are asking. I'd trade pretty much any two prospects in baseball for him right now.

[Watashi]

I may start going to a lot more Angels games next year. (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10489054)

:eek:

[Ezee E]

I may start going to a lot more Angels games next year. (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10489054)

:eek:
Bah.

[shaun]

Odd signing. Hunter's value is in giving you good defense and above average but not great production out of the CF position and they sort of already got that when they overpaid for Gary Matthews last year. Neither of them are corner OFers.

More precursors to a trade?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Unless Matthews is on his way out (which may be the case since Moreno isn't happy about the steroid accusations), I don't understand this signing at all.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Joe Kennedy dies at age of 28 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3124303)

It's always sad to read about someone so young passing away. R.I.P.

[shaun]

Reds spend $46m on Francisco Cordero.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7480854

Lots of money but I guess it's tough to argue it since the Yankees just demolished the market for closers with the Rivera contract. Also he was arguably the best RP on the market and the Reds' bullpen is asstastic. Pretty good signing in that respect.

[soitgoes...]

Just got home from Thanksgiving, and I had to respond to the Hunter signing. This is the biggest head scratcher of a signing for the Angels in a long time. At least when they overpaid Matthews there was a position for him to fill. Now they overpay Hunter with no positional need for him at all. He'll be getting paid more than Vlad, his offense can be replicated by Juan Rivera in house (minus the steals), they don't really need his defense with 'roid boy in center already. This all really better be a precursor to something else. Something not Tejada related.

[Kurosawa Fan]

The Cubs just gave Kerry Wood another one year contract. He has to be blackmailing them at this point. It's the only logical explanation. He's got massive dirt on someone.

[MadMan]

The Cubs just gave Kerry Wood another one year contract. He has to be blackmailing them at this point. It's the only logical explanation. He's got massive dirt on someone.Actually Wood when healthy is a solid reliever. I don't completely agree with him being resigned but at least it seems that the Cubs have smartly given up on Mark Prior. I could be wrong though.

[Robby P]

Wood hasn't shown a decline in skills so much as a propensity to simply get injured (although, obviously, staying healthy and productive is in fact a very important skill). I don't see much harm in taking a one-year flier on someone who's still only 31 and can still strike out big league batters at an impressive rate.

But, yeah, clearly the Cubs are mostly investing in some wishful thinking here. Wood will likely never throw more than 50 innings in a season again. In order to increase the value of those rare outings, they'll likely want to reserve him for high-leverage late-inning affairs.

[shaun]

So I guess a Johan Santana trade is likely to happen this offseason. Carl Polhad is a lousy miser who bilked the MN taxpayers to front a new stadium and doesn't want to pay the best pitcher on the planet. It's not like the dude can't afford it with his 5 billion dollars.

I think he owes it to their fans to at least make an offer like 6/125m. If he turns it down, trade away.

[Watashi]

Minnesota on the verge of acquiring Delmon Young from the Rays. (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10500884)

For the love of Pohlad, do not do this deal, Twins. Hunter's loss is not that big of a deal, and losing both Matt Garza and Johan Santana in the same offseason will undoubtedly make this team worse.

[soitgoes...]

Minnesota on the verge of acquiring Delmon Young from the Rays. (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10500884)

For the love of Pohlad, do not do this deal, Twins. Hunter's loss is not that big of a deal, and losing both Matt Garza and Johan Santana in the same offseason will undoubtedly make this team worse.
It all hinges on what the Twins get back in a Santana deal. They should be able to get someone back who is as good or better than Garza, as long as they make the trade this off-season. If they decide to wait until the next year's trade deadline they're idiots. If Young ever gets his act together, he'll be a good-to-great player. They rid themselves of Rincon and his contract, they swap for a better SS, plus get an OF prospect in Pridie. I think overall its a good trade for the Twins.

[shaun]

I like this trade for both teams. Rays will have Kazmir, Shields, and Garza locking down 1-3 with the two studs McGee and Niemann in the near future. If they can hold onto Kazmir long enough, they will have a potentially awesome rotation.

[Ezee E]

I like this trade for both teams. Rays will have Kazmir, Shields, and Garza locking down 1-3 with the two studs McGee and Niemann in the near future. If they can hold onto Kazmir long enough, they will have a potentially awesome rotation.
But they will inevitably end up sucking forever.

[Watashi]

Well, the trade is final.

I just don't understand why Tampa Bay would give up their only offensive spot in the line-up. They honestly can't rest on Ty Wigginton's bat for the whole season. Crawford will be gone in a matter of no time.

[Benny Profane]

Well, the trade is final.

I just don't understand why Tampa Bay would give up their only offensive spot in the line-up. They honestly can't rest on Ty Wigginton's bat for the whole season. Crawford will be gone in a matter of no time.

BJ Upton is one of the best young players in the majors right now. Carlos Pena hit almost 50 HRs last year.

[Watashi]

BJ Upton is one of the best young players in the majors right now. Carlos Pena hit almost 50 HRs last year.

Pena won't be a Ray by the end of next year if he continues to hit like that.

[soitgoes...]

Now if the Twins accept this deal, they truly are run by idiots (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3133598)
Trading the best pitcher in baseball should be able to land them at the very least Buchholz. I'd still like to see the Angels, even with 6 starting pitchers already, backdoor the Yankees and Sox. Forget a 3rd baseman. Santana, Lackey, Escobar, Weaver, and Garland = Who the fuck cares about offense?? They'd have plenty to make it to the playoffs in the AL West, and then good luck to any team facing those guys in a best-of-5/7.

[Ezee E]

I say the Rockies offer a pitching prospect, Willy Taveras, Garret Atkins, and Aaron Cook.

Not that they'll ever try.

[soitgoes...]

I say the Rockies offer a pitching prospect, Willy Taveras, Garret Atkins, and Aaron Cook.

Not that they'll ever try.
I'm not sure Santana would like pitching at Coors.

[Ezee E]

I'm not sure Santana would like pitching at Coors.
Because being on the 3rd best pitching staff after the all-star break, and with the NL CHampions is a bad thing?

I can't make an argument against the Red Sox or Yanks though. So, you win still. :(

[soitgoes...]

Because being on the 3rd best pitching staff after the all-star break, and with the NL CHampions is a bad thing?

I can't make an argument against the Red Sox or Yanks though. So, you win still. :(
No, because his numbers are more likely to take a hit at Coors. Being a free-agent after next year, I'm sure he's concerned about $$$.

[Ezee E]

Coors has changed A LOT since they put in the Humidor. The baseballs no longer carry like they used to. Thus, the Rockies had their best pitching ever, and by the end of the season, they had one of the best staffs in baseball.

But nobody tends to acknowledge that.

[Watashi]

Lester would be a good pick up, but I would take Youkilis over Crisp.

Still, whatever the deal will be, the Twins are going to receive a huge package of prospects to build around.

[Watashi]

The more I think about it, the more I don't mind us trading Santana. Now if (and this is a big if) Liriano can step up and pitch like he did before he was shut down, it will be like having a much younger and even more dominant Santana as our ace. The outfield would consist of Monroe, Young, and Cuddyer, which is better than Tyner, Hunter, Cuddyer. It's the infield that scares me. Besides Morneau, I have no idea who the rest of our infielders will be. If we can pick up a veteran pitcher (maybe a Kenny Rogers) to show some leadership to our pitching staff, then our team will actually be better than last years.

[Ezee E]

It will be interesting to see how Liriano comes back. With technology and medicine, it's certainly possible. But Tommy John is Tommy John surgery.

[Robby P]

Mets to deal Lastings Milledge for Ryan Church and Brian Schneider.

At first glance, this seems somewhat lopsided in Washington's favor. But Church is actually a serviceable corner outfielder who plays good defense, and given a chance to hit somewhere other than RFK, he should put up some fairly reasonable batting totals.

More importantly, Milledge hasn't shown the kind of progress that was initially expected of a 20 year old wunderkid. His performance hasn't been quite as disappointing as, say, Delmon Young's, but his perceived value has thus far greatly exceeded his actual worth. Now is a good time to trade him, before his market perception begins to descend any further.

But perhaps even more importantly, the Mets can afford to make this trade, because they already have Carlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez, two of the best minor league outfielders available.

By trading for Church, the Mets add a major league-quality every-day outfielder for the price of an expendable prospect who had shown little to no progression at any level above AA. Now New York can once again contend for a playoff spot in 2008 while still building towards the future with a plethora of talented prospects. I think the Mets win this trade, or at least come out even.

[DSNT]

More importantly, Milledge hasn't shown the kind of progress that was initially expected of a 20 year old wunderkid. His performance hasn't been quite as disappointing as, say, Delmon Young's ...
I don't get why so many are disappointed with DY's first-year numbers. .288 with 13 hr and 93 rbi are not bad for a rookie, especially given his rough mid-season slump. He was 2nd in the RoY voting after all.

[soitgoes...]

Mets to deal Lastings Milledge for Ryan Church and Brian Schneider.

At first glance, this seems somewhat lopsided in Washington's favor. But Church is actually a serviceable corner outfielder who plays good defense, and given a chance to hit somewhere other than RFK, he should put up some fairly reasonable batting totals.
Milledge is just as serviceable. His OPS was only a smidge lower than Church's last year plus he's 6 1/2 years younger. Shea Stadium isn't too much more of a hitter friendly park.


More importantly, Milledge hasn't shown the kind of progress that was initially expected of a 20 year old wunderkid. His performance hasn't been quite as disappointing as, say, Delmon Young's, but his perceived value has thus far greatly exceeded his actual worth. Now is a good time to trade him, before his market perception begins to descend any further.He's only 22. As mentioned, its hard to say Young has been a bust.


But perhaps even more importantly, the Mets can afford to make this trade, because they already have Carlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez, two of the best minor league outfielders available.
Carlos Gomez did much worse than Milledge last season with the Mets. He's only 8 months younger. Martinez is still a few years away after struggling in AA last season.

By trading for Church, the Mets add a major league-quality every-day outfielder for the price of an expendable prospect who had shown little to no progression at any level above AA. Now New York can once again contend for a playoff spot in 2008 while still building towards the future with a plethora of talented prospects. I think the Mets win this trade, or at least come out even.
The Mets already had a "major-league quality every-day outfielder" in Milledge. They basically gained a third catcher in the deal by replacing their OFer with an older version with little-to-no upside.

[shaun]

This trade sucks dong. I'm not high on Milledge (He screams Alex Ochoa to me) but we should have either sold high on him 2 years ago and gotten Manny when we could have, or held on to him and hoped that he lived up to expectations. Church is better than Lastings right now without question, but he's 6 years older and the upside for anything more than a 3rd OFer just isn't there. And picking up Schneider when we already signed 2 catchers this offseason is completely baffling. Where does he play?

Pointless trade even if the talent level is probably a lateral move.

Hate Minaya.

[Robby P]

I don't get why so many are disappointed with DY's first-year numbers. .288 with 13 hr and 93 rbi are not bad for a rookie, especially given his rough mid-season slump. He was 2nd in the RoY voting after all.

Young made more outs than any other player in major league baseball last year. That's pretty bad.


The Mets already had a "major-league quality every-day outfielder" in Milledge. They basically gained a third catcher in the deal by replacing their OFer with an older version with little-to-no upside.

I don't have the numbers handy since prospectus is apparently on the fritz today, but if I recall correctly, Church was worth about 7.0 wins above replacement last season, mostly due to his good defensive play and solid work with the bat (about a ~.280 eqa and ~15-18 BRAA if I recall correctly, and a +13 FRAA rate). Those are very good numbers for a third outfielder. Milledge was far less impressive, posting an eqa barely above replacement level. There's certainly more room for improvement in Milledge's case, but most projection systems thus far seem to forecast his future as little more than what Church is presently accomplishing.

EDIT: Additionally, Church's home/road splits are extremely encouraging: (.266/.356/.419) (.278/.342/.506)

[shaun]

Royals sign steroid using Jose Guillen to 3/36m deal.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3140604

huh?

[soitgoes...]

Royals sign steroid using Jose Guillen to 3/36m deal.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3140604

huh?
Strange signing for the Royals, who have been on the look out for cheap help of late. Granted Guillen does make the Royals a better team, that in itself says volumes, but at $12 million a year its a head-scratcher. What's the point? Their off-season budget has to be pretty much blown at this point. Maybe one more signing, but at best the Royals will finish 3rd in the AL Central. That's only if their kids get it together, which is a big if.

[Watashi]

Holy Shit! (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10512209)

KF is really happy right now.

[Watashi]

Just look at the Tiger's batting lineup: Miguel Cabrera, Gary Sheffield, Carlos Guillen, Magglio Ordonez, Curtis Granderson, Edgar Renteria, Placido Polanco, Ivan Rodriguez

That's insane.

[Ezee E]

Just look at the Tiger's batting lineup: Miguel Cabrera, Gary Sheffield, Carlos Guillen, Magglio Ordonez, Curtis Granderson, Edgar Renteria, Placido Polanco, Ivan Rodriguez

That's insane.
Yankee-ish.

And they have a good pitching staff.

[shaun]

That lineup is pretty scary. They need to put Cabrera in LF and keep Inge at 3B though and they should be set.

Willis is kind of crap but as a 4-5 starter, he's ok.

[DavidSeven]

Royals sign steroid using Jose Guillen to 3/36m deal.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3140604

huh?

The Mariners decided he wasn't worth a $9 million option, so they released him. What do The Royals do? Sign him for $12 million. I guess I'll just reiterate. Huh?!

[MadMan]

Just look at the Tiger's batting lineup: Miguel Cabrera, Gary Sheffield, Carlos Guillen, Magglio Ordonez, Curtis Granderson, Edgar Renteria, Placido Polanco, Ivan Rodriguez

That's insane.With that lineup the Tigers have a chance at winning the damn division or at least finishg 2nd and taking the wild card. Wow. The Tigers are really a much smarter organization than they were prior to the season they reached the World Series.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Holy Shit! (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10512209)

KF is really happy right now.

:pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch: :pritch:

I'm getting hit with a nasty cold right now, but my day couldn't be better after reading this news.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I have to add a post script and say I'm not too excited about Willis. His HR, ERA, BAA, BB, all have increased each of the last two seasons, while his Ks, IP, and wins have all decreased. Bringing him to the AL could be a disaster. Hopefully last year was more of an aberration. Don't get me wrong, he's a solid 3rd-5th man in the rotation, depending on the roster, but if last year was a sign of where his skills have gone, giving up Andrew Miller may have been a mistake. His control was a issue, but when he was on, he showed flashes of brilliance. Cabrera is a great addition, I just hope the price tag wasn't too high. I'm not too sad about losing Maybin though, as our OF is pretty solid.

[shaun]

I think it was a great trade even with losing Miller, but I think the Tigers need a good #2 starter before they can be considered legitimate contenders. Bonderman isn't it and Willis certainly isn't unless he regains the form he had when he was 20. Verlander and 4 mediocre guys wont get it done in the playoffs.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I think it was a great trade even with losing Miller, but I think the Tigers need a good #2 starter before they can be considered legitimate contenders. Bonderman isn't it and Willis certainly isn't unless he regains the form he had when he was 20. Verlander and 4 mediocre guys wont get it done in the playoffs.

Agreed. Rogers, Bonderman, and Robertson are all #3 starters competing to be a #2 guy. It'll hurt them in the postseason with shorter rotations.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I also worry about their depth. They've parted ways with Maybin, Rabelo, Jurjens, Miller, Infante, etc. this offseason. Their lineup is slightly injury prone (Guillen, Sheffield, Rogers, etc) and if any significant injuries happen, they have no depth whatsoever, and no one to call up. Plus, they have done nothing about their bullpen, and have nothing left in the tank in the way of trades or money to do anything more. I feel like maybe they've stretched themselves too thin.

[Robby P]

Just look at the Tiger's batting lineup: Miguel Cabrera, Gary Sheffield, Carlos Guillen, Magglio Ordonez, Curtis Granderson, Edgar Renteria, Placido Polanco, Ivan Rodriguez

"One of these things is not like the others..."

I don't see how this move doesn't immediately make Detroit the division favorite. Cleveland was not a 96 win team last year. Much closer to Detroit's 88.

[Watashi]

"One of these things is not like the others..."

I don't see how this move doesn't immediately make Detroit the division favorite. Cleveland was not a 96 win team last year. Much closer to Detroit's 88.
Oh please. Rodriguez is still a gold-glove capable catcher who carries veteran leadership and discipline. Statistics are not everything. Any team would love to have Pudge on their roster.

[soitgoes...]

Hmm... First time I've been on my computer since the big trade, and color me a bit surprised. Being an Angel fan, I've been expecting first Arod and then Cabrera to be the new 3rd baseman. The fact that they got neither, especially after all the rumors stating they would, kinda makes me happy. I say kinda because I'm intrigued at what both could have brought to the lineup. The cost for both just seemed too high (giving up Kendrick especially), and I'm glad they went elsewhere.
Detroit definitely will put the pressure on last years 4 playoff teams. The fact that Florida's entire payroll of $8 million for 2008 is gonna be 2/3 of what Jose Guillen makes by himself is sickening on two different levels.

[soitgoes...]

Oh please. Rodriguez is still a gold-glove capable catcher who carries veteran leadership and discipline. Statistics are not everything. Any team would love to have Pudge on their roster.
Perhaps he does bring certain "intangibles" to the the Tigers, but you pointed out the Tiger's batting lineup. Pudge no longer strikes fear in the hearts of opposing pitchers.