The Book Discussion Thread

[Melville]

Finished Sartre's Nausea and ended up loving it.
Excellent.


I finished off The Book of Chuang Tzu, which I liked a lot more than the Tao Te Ching. It's more witty and less philosophically obscure, and it has a chapter where a robber baron delivers a philosophy beatdown to Confucius. The basic idea of the book is that one should just live according to one's nature without thinking about it; striving to be "good", living according to rules of righteousness, is an aberration that takes one away from the true goodness of actionless action.

I also read Petronius' Satyricon. It was very ribald.

I've got about 50 pages left of Hamsun's Growth of the Soil. Hamsun can do no wrong.

[Qrazy]

Finished Sartre's Nausea and ended up loving it.


Conformist. ;)

Kidding.

[Milky Joe]

I can't just sit down and read the thing for a few hours straight. I always flip to the back, put it down and wander off to do something else.

This is kind of interesting. Seemingly Wallace's strategy of fragmenting the text to reflect the media-saturated society in which we live has worked too well for you, to the point where the fragmented nature of it literally causes you to be distracted from the task at hand of actually reading the book--the very problem the book seeks to diagnose. But I don't quite understand. Why is it so hard to flip to the back, read the endnote, and then simply flip back and continue reading? I understand for some of the multiple-pagers (which can be daunting, particularly with that dense 8-point font), but most of them are like a paragraph or less. Are you using two bookmarks?

[Mara]

I finished Payback and I kind of loved it. It's not in-depth (apparently it's adapted from a series of lectures Atwood gave) but the ideas she explores are interesting and thoughtful. It's very readable; almost funny. There's an extended "Scrooge" analogy in the last chapter which gets a little silly, but overall, a charming book.

[BirdsAteMyFace]

I read one book last year (Kafka's The Metamorphosis). Pathetic. This year, that shall be rectified! I already have three books checked out from the library.

[lovejuice]

so what's the green light? :P

[Ezee E]

I read one book last year (Kafka's The Metamorphosis). Pathetic. This year, that shall be rectified! I already have three books checked out from the library.
You can check out as many as you want. It still may not change your result.

Been sick, and I can't read when I'm sick. I'll get to that green light shortly.

[Duncan]

I listened to my first ever audiobook: Dreams from My Father. I got it for Christmas since I drive an hour to and from work everyday. It was good. I pretty much knew the story already, albeit in condensed form. Some parts are exceptionally moving, probably even more so because Obama reads it so well. Favourite part may have been hearing Barack Obama say lines like, "Mothafucker, you ain't my nigga." As for the audiobook experience, I enjoyed it, but found that there were times when Obama was trying to express some relatively complex idea and there's a pickup swerving in front of you and the roads are icy and you have an appointment to make and wait what was he talking about?

Almost done Beckett's Molloy.

Still chipping away at Infinite Jest. I can see that one taking a while.

[BirdsAteMyFace]

You can check out as many as you want. It still may not change your result.

Been sick, and I can't read when I'm sick. I'll get to that green light shortly.First book, finished. Success! :P

[Ezee E]

First book, finished. Success! :P
Berenstein Bears?

[BirdsAteMyFace]

Berenstein Bears?Close. Palahniuk's Snuff.

[jesse]

I read one book last year (Kafka's The Metamorphosis). Pathetic. This year, that shall be rectified! I already have three books checked out from the library. Congrats on finishing the first!

Actually, I'd say that deciding to frequent the public library this last year was one of the major reasons I read so much more than the year before--every time I went I'd stumble upon more books I was desperate to read, which would inspire me to finish up what I was already reading...

The six week deadlines helped a bit too. :)

[Ezee E]

Close. Palahniuk's Snuff.
Haha. He's gone so downhill after Lullaby, yet I kept giving him chances. After reading Rant, I'm officially done with him. Too many other books out there that should be read.

[BirdsAteMyFace]

Congrats on finishing the first!

Actually, I'd say that deciding to frequent the public library this last year was one of the major reasons I read so much more than the year before--every time I went I'd stumble upon more books I was desperate to read, which would inspire me to finish up what I was already reading...

The six week deadlines helped a bit too. :)Thank you, sir. Three weeks deadline on my end, though. Now, it's on to Nabokov's Dozen. After that, July's No One Belongs Here More Than You. A rather strange assortment, to be sure.


Haha. He's gone so downhill after Lullaby, yet I kept giving him chances. After reading Rant, I'm officially done with him. Too many other books out there that should be read.While I tend to agree, Invisible Monsters will continue to hold a place in my heart/brain. For sentimental reasons, I suppose.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Yeah, Palahniuk is balls. I used to love him when I was in high school. I still have great memories about his first four books. But after those four, the decline in quality (or the experience of myself as a reader making visible serious flaws in his writing) has kept me away, and I don't think anything will bring me back. Diary and Haunted were two of the worst books I've ever read. Diary especially. I stopped after Haunted.

I finished Clockers last night. Quite a novel. You can definitely feel The Wire in there, though it's different enough to keep it fresh. Price's writing was a bit heavy-handed at times, but those moments were few and far between, and the rest was so well done that the flaws were instantly forgettable. Definitely among the best crime novels I've ever read, if not the best. I'm interested to see the film, but I've been told that Spike Lee pulls a lot of focus off Rocco (the cop) and puts most of the emphasis on Strike (the street-level dealer). I can't see that working nearly as well. The balance of the two stories and the way they interweave, and the subtle similarities between the two men is what makes the book so fascinating. Take that away and it's closer to a typical crime novel.

Anyway, on to Jane Eyre. For Mara.

[Mara]

Anyway, on to Jane Eyre. For Mara.

You made my day.

[Ezee E]

Yeah, Palahniuk is balls. I used to love him when I was in high school. I still have great memories about his first four books. But after those four, the decline in quality (or the experience of myself as a reader making visible serious flaws in his writing) has kept me away, and I don't think anything will bring me back. Diary and Haunted were two of the worst books I've ever read. Diary especially. I stopped after Haunted.

I finished Clockers last night. Quite a novel. You can definitely feel The Wire in there, though it's different enough to keep it fresh. Price's writing was a bit heavy-handed at times, but those moments were few and far between, and the rest was so well done that the flaws were instantly forgettable. Definitely among the best crime novels I've ever read, if not the best. I'm interested to see the film, but I've been told that Spike Lee pulls a lot of focus off Rocco (the cop) and puts most of the emphasis on Strike (the street-level dealer). I can't see that working nearly as well. The balance of the two stories and the way they interweave, and the subtle similarities between the two men is what makes the book so fascinating. Take that away and it's closer to a typical crime novel.

Anyway, on to Jane Eyre. For Mara.
Most of the story is on Strike, but it's still worth watching. Spike Lee's direction makes it a very different gangster movie.

Scorsese was originally attached to direct, but took Casino at the last minute, and handed it to Spike Lee thinking he'd be great for it. Harvey Keitel was already attached to it.

[Katiescarlett]

You made my day.

Mine too! I cannot wait until he's done so we can watch the movie together.

My favorite is with Ruth Wilson and Toby Stephens.

[Mara]

Mine too! I cannot wait until he's done so we can watch the movie together.

My favorite is with Ruth Wilson and Toby Stephens.

I haven't seen that version... I'm adding it to my Netflix now.

I have been really disappointed with every version of the film I've ever seen. I'm not sure it's a novel that really lends itself to film.

The '96 Zeffirelli version wasn't horrible, but just came across as a little boring and flat. Rochester was too nice. Jane was too quiet.

The '97 version had the best casting (Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds) but the script was stupid and the whole thing came across as vapid.

The '44 version was awful, and not at all true to the novel. Orson Welles was being charming, which was charming, but had absolutely nothing to do with Rochester. Fontaine was annoying.

[Malickfan]

Haha. He's gone so downhill after Lullaby, yet I kept giving him chances. After reading Rant, I'm officially done with him. Too many other books out there that should be read.

They're really raving though about his next one called Pygmy. A friend of Chuck told him it was his best first draft ever. I'll read that...if it sucks though then yeah, I'll be done with Palahniuk.

[Ezee E]

They're really raving though about his next one called Pygmy. A friend of Chuck told him it was his best first draft ever. I'll read that...if it sucks though then yeah, I'll be done with Palahniuk.
I'll wait for more reviews besides one of his friends.

I'm guessing his sales have gone downhill a ton since Haunted as well.

The man still has a bit of talent. Rant has moments of it, but his voice is the same in each and every book he's done. Haunted, his worst in my mind, is so awful because every character who tells a story, seems to say it the same cynical, hateful way.

[thefourthwall]

The six week deadlines helped a bit too. :)

Self-imposed? That you have to finish by? What happens if you don't?

EDIT: Oh, wait do you mean because that's when you have to return them? I always get into trouble since I can renew online.

[Malickfan]

I'm guessing his sales have gone downhill a ton since Haunted as well.

He probably sells more now than ever. His last two books have done very well on the bestseller lists. He's got such a huge number of fans to count on who don't think his shit stinks.

Lullaby I thought was ok...but Diary was torture to get through. It's weird, his writing is getting better but the stories have no mmmppphhh that Survivor, Choke and Fight Club had.

[jesse]

Self-imposed? That you have to finish by? What happens if you don't?

EDIT: Oh, wait do you mean because that's when you have to return them? I always get into trouble since I can renew online. Exactly. 25¢ a day isn't much I suppose--but I always have at least a dozen things out at one time that any tardiness quickly begins to add up...

[Katiescarlett]

I haven't seen that version... I'm adding it to my Netflix now.



The '44 version was awful, and not at all true to the novel. Orson Welles was being charming, which was charming, but had absolutely nothing to do with Rochester. Fontaine was annoying.


I just rewatched that version and didn't care for it at all. It was so short! The version that I like best is quite long. I still think Rochester is too handsome but I digress.

I kinda liked the version with William Hurt.

[thefourthwall]

Just finished reading A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Vanuaken for the second time--an amazing book. A "spiritual autobiography of a love," it traces Sheldon and his wife Jean ("Davy") as they fall in love and create a high pagan "Shining Barrier" concept of love and live it out in an amazing fashion that deals with philosophy, poetry, and beauty. While living in Oxford, the couple meets C.S. Lewis and strikes up a friendship that endures for the rest of their lives; a number of letters of correspondence from Lewis is included in the text. A fantastic read.

[Mara]

I still think Rochester is too handsome but I digress.

He's too old now, I think, but I would have loved to see Alan Rickman as Rochester.

[lovejuice]

snow by ohan pamuk is not what i expected. i am almost half way through. the book contains many interesting idea, but the style is a bit too simplistic. we'll see how it goes.

[D_Davis]

The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie by Murial Spark


I took quite a few lit classes in high school and in college.

Why had I never heard of or read anything by Muriel Spark until this year?

She was never even mentioned in the two classes on Woman's Lit I took in college, once again proving how lame the canon of literature is that is taught in schools, or at least the schools I went to.

I am only just now discovering that Muriel Spark is considered one of the finest English language authors who ever lived.

And I agree.

She is simply in a class with very few peers, at least in relation to the authors I've read.

So far, 2 chapters into this book, Spark is totally blowing me away with her prose, her depth of character, her eye for setting the scene, and her ability to create tension in the smallest of things.

Brilliant thus far.

***

I can't believe how much I love this Muriel Spark book. I mean, it's about so many things that I have zero interest in: bratty girls, high society, school drama, romance, manners, and so on.

And yet I am finding myself utterly compelled by each page. I can't read it fast enough, I can't absorb enough of Spark's prose, and I can't wait for each opportunity to dive its narrative.

Spark is a master at creating and setting the scene. She writes with her eyes. Each time I pick up the book, it only takes a couple of brief sentences for me to be instantly drawn back into the book's milieu.

In terms of quality narrative, character, and prose, this book stands apart from almost anything else I've ever read.

This morning I read what could be the greatest sentence I've ever read.

Miss Brodie is an unorthodox teacher. one of her students comments on how when other students say 'good morning' to Miss Brodie, they say the word 'morning' to rhyme with the word 'scorning,' thus they are really saying 'I scorn you.' But Miss Brodie is different, her reply is more "anglicized in its accent":

"'Good mawning,' she replied, in the corridors, flattening their scorn beneath the chariot wheels of her superiority, and deviating her head towards them no more than an insulting half-inch."

Now that is writing.

[Mara]

Anyway, on to Jane Eyre. For Mara.

/wishes for updates

Also, I'm not sure I ever got a final response from Spinal on 13 Clocks.

[Hugh_Grant]

The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie by Murial Spark

I realize this is the book discussion thread, but the movie with Maggie Smith is fantastic. I have a love-hate relationship with "teacher" movies, but this is definitely one of my favorites.

Jane Eyre was the first novel I taught in college, so I love it for sentimental reasons.

[D_Davis]

While Miss Brodie is a teacher, this is really not a "teacher" narrative. Although I am more familiar with this genre cinematically, the similarities between Spark's novel and something like Mr. Holland's Opus, The Dead Poets Society, Stand and Deliver et al., seem to be superficial only.

Spark's novel has a twisted, subversive edge to it - something dangerous is happening, and I am just not quite sure what. I think this is less about an ideal teacher-student relationship, and more about a certain kind of brainwashing that goes on in the halls of scholarly learning.

And what's worse is that Miss Brodie is really nothing but an over grown high school girl still living her life in a clique, addicted to narcissism - she's one of the most narcissistic characters I've ever encountered. She thrives upon the worship of her Brodie sect, and she is totally petty in the way she choses her clique and provokes them.

It is quite brilliant, and Spark's prose is a shining beacon of light, dwarfing all others that I've read. She is truly a remarkable author.

I can't wait to find out what happens.

I hope the ending is as powerful and twisted as Spark's The Driver's Seat, or at least as totally unpredictable and emotional.

[Melville]

Why had I never heard of or read anything by Muriel Spark until this year?

She was never even mentioned in the two classes on Woman's Lit I took in college, once again proving how lame the canon of literature is that is taught in schools, or at least the schools I went to.
She's pretty famous (or at least that one book is), but I don't see why it's lame that you happened not to read anything by her in two Women's Lit classes. There are only so many authors that can be covered in two classes, and Spark certainly isn't as highly regarded as, say, Austen or Woolf.


"'Good mawning,' she replied, in the corridors, flattening their scorn beneath the chariot wheels of her superiority, and deviating her head towards them no more than an insulting half-inch."

Now that is writing.
You are the anti-me.

[Kurosawa Fan]

/wishes for updates

Also, I'm not sure I ever got a final response from Spinal on 13 Clocks.

About 100 pages through. My only complaint is that some of the characters are a bit black or white (Mrs. Reed, Mr. Brocklehurst). Otherwise I'm really enjoying it. She's quite a writer. I hate to give opinions when I'm so early in the novel, because so often my opinion changes by the end, so I'll stop at that.

[D_Davis]

You are the anti-me.

You got that right!

[Mara]

About 100 pages through. My only complaint is that some of the characters are a bit black or white (Mrs. Reed, Mr. Brocklehurst). Otherwise I'm really enjoying it. She's quite a writer. I hate to give opinions when I'm so early in the novel, because so often my opinion changes by the end, so I'll stop at that.

Interesting tidbit: Lowood School is based on a school where Charlotte was sent when she was about 8 with three of her sisters (Maria and Elizabeth, older, and Emily, younger.) They were abused and neglected there, which led to the deaths of the two older sisters. The family never recovered emotionally from the death of the two sisters (with Charlotte describing intense nightmares about them well into adulthood.) Charlotte believed that the physical toll it took on both her and Emily lasted for years, as well.

[Hugh_Grant]

While Miss Brodie is a teacher, this is really not a "teacher" narrative.

Correct. Maybe I should have said "teacher as protagonist"?

[lovejuice]

there is a good novel -- even a perfect one -- hidden somewhere inside snow, but it needs a heavy-handed editing. as it is the narrative is too jumble. pamuk has this weird dialogue sense from which out of nowhere philosophical treaties are dropped in conversations. can get annoying at a time.

he reads like an extremely smart guy though. i can see myself enjoying his collection of essays more than a full-scaled novel. i might give some of his shorter work another chance.

[Ezee E]

Finished it finally. If it weren't for being sick, I'd definitely have finished sooner.

While I don't have a strong idea of what the green light means, I am pretty interested in the idea of "being rich" that seems to go throughout the entire book.

Gatsby started off as a poor soldier that didn't have any clothes beyond his uniform. However, he knew what he wanted, which was Daisy. He took the offer to Oxford, attained a huge house, nice cars, and had many a parties in attempts to keep her. It ended up all being superficial, hence, one of the lines at the end that struck me the most as the main character mentions it as, "an empty, colossal failure of a house" or something to that effect.

Everyone seemed to have that drive to be rich. To show off their items. The main character seemed to only go to the parties to be seen really, to brag about being with what could be the rich and famous.

This type of stuff has always interested me. I'm kind of glad that I never read it in high school, because I'm sure I wouldn't have liked it as much. It's a book that I'd probably read a second time somewhere down the line because of those little instances I picked up. I'm sure there's more.

[Duncan]

I finished Molloy by Beckett. An interesting read. No plot, obviously. Or, I guess there is a plot but it seems to exist for the sole purpose of being discarded. I don't want to say it's all about the language though, because some lines seem downright sentimental. There's definitely a strong current of humanism running through it, what with all the crawling and forests and stuff. Seems like the kind of novel students could write essay after essay on, and I'm sure they do. Anyway, I liked it a lot. There's probably a lot of analysis to be done that I overlooked while reading it. It came in a trilogy collection with two other novels. I'll be reading the others at some point.

[Qrazy]

I finished Molloy by Beckett. An interesting read. No plot, obviously. Or, I guess there is a plot but it seems to exist for the sole purpose of being discarded. I don't want to say it's all about the language though, because some lines seem downright sentimental. There's definitely a strong current of humanism running through it, what with all the crawling and forests and stuff. Seems like the kind of novel students could write essay after essay on, and I'm sure they do. Anyway, I liked it a lot. There's probably a lot of analysis to be done that I overlooked while reading it. It came in a trilogy collection with two other novels. I'll be reading the others at some point.

You should read them all together. Molloy is my favorite of the three but the trilogy as a whole forms a greater unity. You should also read Watt at some point.

[Benny Profane]

So after 2666 I needed a quickie so I breezed through Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris.

And I, uh, agree.

Now on to Blood Meridian. Only 16 pages into it, I have a feeling this will be the most violent thing I've ever read.

[Ezee E]

Now on to Blood Meridian. Only 16 pages into it, I have a feeling this will be the most violent thing I've ever read.

It is.

I'm on to The Stranger by Albert Camus. Another short one. Maybe I'll try and be more ambitious with the next book.

Is Let The Right One In known as something else in its book form? It wasn't at the library.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Is Let The Right One In known as something else in its book form? It wasn't at the library.

Nope. (http://www.amazon.com/Let-Right-John-Ajvide-Lindqvist/dp/0312355297/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232468258&sr=8-1)

[Ezee E]

Nope. (http://www.amazon.com/Let-Right-John-Ajvide-Lindqvist/dp/0312355297/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232468258&sr=8-1)
D'oh.

[thefourthwall]

While I don't have a strong idea of what the green light means, I am pretty interested in the idea of "being rich" that seems to go throughout the entire book.

I think that's part of it. The light as the unattainable, which is Daisy, but also green as money/envy the pursuit of wealth and status that you discuss, but which is ultimately unfufilling.

[Ezee E]

I think that's part of it. The light as the unattainable, which is Daisy, but also green as money/envy the pursuit of wealth and status that you discuss, but which is ultimately unfufilling.
It's shown a few times if I remember right, not just at the end.

[thefourthwall]

It's shown a few times if I remember right, not just at the end.

...right...did something I say suggest that it's only at the end? Sorry for being unclear if so. It's shown repeatedly as the perpetual longing and emptiness that Gatsby feels, that which he can never obtain.

[jesse]

2666 How was this? (Or if you've already written about it, you can point me there.) As I'm currently like the 60th person in line for it in the San Diego Library system I've toyed with the idea of buying it myself, but I have to be pretty darn assured that I'm going to feel justified in doing so before I do.

[Ezee E]

...right...did something I say suggest that it's only at the end? Sorry for being unclear if so. It's shown repeatedly as the perpetual longing and emptiness that Gatsby feels, that which he can never obtain.
I just remember seeing "the green light at the end." It could've been others. Nonetheless, it kept me more aware.

[Benny Profane]

How was this? (Or if you've already written about it, you can point me there.) As I'm currently like the 60th person in line for it in the San Diego Library system I've toyed with the idea of buying it myself, but I have to be pretty darn assured that I'm going to feel justified in doing so before I do.

I wrote a couple things in the Recently Purchased thread. It's an incredible novel.

[thefourthwall]

I just remember seeing "the green light at the end." It could've been others. Nonetheless, it kept me more aware.

End of the pier, maybe?

[Benny Profane]

Great review of Roberto Bolano's 2666. Thank you, google alerts. (http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2009/01/santa-teresa-2666-book-bolano)



"Comparisons have been drawn with Jorge Luis Borges, in his philosophical leanings, and Gabriel GarcÃ*a Márquez; a more relevant comparison would be with the encyclopaedic fictions of Herman Melville or Thomas Pynchon (a throwaway reference to alligators in the sewers is surely a nod to V)."

[EvilShoe]

I finished Rabbit, Run.
I wish I didn't sympathize somewhat with Rabbit, but alas.

This book is going to stay with me for a long time.

No idea yet on what to read next. I want to let this one sink in first, before I continue the Rabbit series.

Maybe I'll read something uplifting, like Blood Meridian.

[MadMan]

I'm currently reading Ultramarathon Man: Confessions of an All-Night Runner by Dean Karnazes, and I also checked out Pet Sematary by Stephen King and Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut from my school's library. I'm more than halfway through "Ultramarathon Man" and its quite interesting, if merely solid. As for "Sementary," I only started reading it a few days ago. So far, so good.

[EvilShoe]

I've decided to tackle the rest of Tristram Shandy. 80 pages in (after a year and a half), time to continue. I'll probably just skim it.

[Benny Profane]

Blood Meridian is a way tougher read than the other two McCarthy books I've read.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Blood Meridian is a way tougher read than the other two McCarthy books I've read.

Tougher how? Tougher to follow?

[Benny Profane]

Tougher how? Tougher to follow?

Tougher language, both in style and vocabulary. I swear there are 2 or 3 words per page that I've never seen before.

[EvilShoe]

Tougher language, both in style and vocabulary. I swear there are 2 or 3 words per page that I've never seen before.
Try reading Tristram Shandy.
I can't wait to finish this book.

[lovejuice]

I've decided to tackle the rest of Tristram Shandy. 80 pages in (after a year and a half), time to continue. I'll probably just skim it.

i think TS's best read chapter by chapter instead of under one long breath. i almost finish it and like it to some degree. as much as finnigan ideally read by an insomniac, TS is ideally read by a procrastinator.

[Ezee E]

Tougher language, both in style and vocabulary. I swear there are 2 or 3 words per page that I've never seen before.
I had the same problem. It's just as good as the others though.

[EvilShoe]

i think TS's best read chapter by chapter instead of under one long breath. i almost finish it and like it to some degree. as much as finnigan ideally read by an insomniac, TS is ideally read by a procrastinator.
I've tried that, but it only ended up in me abandoning this book.
I'm afraid it leaves me cold, even if I see its merits. They are why I still want to finish it.

[megladon8]

Has anyone read any of the "McSweeney's Quarterly Concern" books?

I have the one that's dedicated to comic books (edited by Chris Ware), and I actually thought it was a series of comic book anthologies. It was only recently I found out that they're collections of short stories and novellas, and this one I have is the only comic book one.

Are the others worth checking out?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Tougher how? Tougher to follow?

Yeah, it's a tough read in terms of the atmosphere that he tries to create. Very flowery writing which engulfs much of the narrative I thought. Easy to have your mind wander for a sec only to realize that you've reread the last paragraph describing the smell of the nearby rocks 4 times.

Maybe I'm losing it or something, but I kind of had a difficult time figuring out what was going on in that book for huge swathes of it. A lot of people died and the Judge was pretty badass, is what I made of it. Not sure, really. And I do dig the Corm.

[Raiders]

I really can't remember having any issues with the wording or the narrative in Blood Meridian, but it did take me a good long while to finish. It is still my favorite of his novels. That or Suttree.

[Ezee E]

Finished The Stranger. Camus is certainly a good writer as he made one of the more boring characters seem interesting. Very quick read. With this use of the library, I'll probably read more than I have since grade school.

Next up.... Not sure.

[Malickfan]

Finished World War Z. It was good.

If they had been fast moving zombies like in 28 Days Later, we would have been fucked.

[Ezee E]

Wanted to read Revolutionary Road to see what Michael Shannon's character was like. It's got 11 requests. So I went with The Ruins.

[Malickfan]

Wanted to read Revolutionary Road

Have heard fantastic things about this book.

I just finished The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. It was ok. Good writing...and nothing like the movie.

[EvilShoe]

You know, Brad Pitt didn't even read the book. I think it was for this very reason.
It's only like 15 pages.
Lazy bum.

I'm currently loving Kavalier & Clay. Started monday, already 400 pages in.

[Mara]

I'm currently loving Kavalier & Clay. Started monday, already 400 pages in.

I'm a fan. I've liked it best of Chabon's work, although I've generally enjoyed all of it. (Except Gentlemen of the Road, which I couldn't finish.)

[jesse]

So... I read Twilight. And I liked it.

[Malickfan]

So... I read Twilight. And I liked it.

By William Gay? Great choice!

[lovejuice]

i really want to read the vampire twilight, but the shear size of it discourage me so.

[EvilShoe]

I'm a fan. I've liked it best of Chabon's work, although I've generally enjoyed all of it. (Except Gentlemen of the Road, which I couldn't finish.)
It's the first of his I read, actually.
I really like his writing style.

[Duncan]

i really want to read the vampire twilight, but the shear size of it discourage me so.

Aren't you the guy who reads a book like every 2 days?

edit: Not that I am encouraging you to read it.

[Mara]

So... I read Twilight. And I liked it.

I've said it before: for what it is, Twilight is a whole lot of fun.

It is a young adult romance about vampires. Okay? And I've read dozens of young adult romances about vampires, because it has always existed as a sub-genre, and Twilight is the best. It's imaginative and sudsy and (occasionally) rather moving.

I've read the whole series, and enjoyed all of them (especially the last.) I think Meyer's first adult novel, The Host, is a large step better than any of them.

If you want the book to be serious, or mature, or thought-provoking, then you are obviously going to be disappointed. You can't complain that Speed Racer isn't Revolutionary Road. Would you want it to be?

[lovejuice]

the first 20 pages of the jungle is extremely powerful.

[jesse]

i really want to read the vampire twilight, but the shear size of it discourage me so. Have you opened the book at all? Lots and lots of white space and giant print. It only took me a few days, and I gather you read quicker than I do anyway...



I've said it before: for what it is, Twilight is a whole lot of fun.

If you want the book to be serious, or mature, or thought-provoking, then you are obviously going to be disappointed. You can't complain that Speed Racer isn't Revolutionary Road. Would you want it to be? Yes, exactly. I saw the film and quite liked it; the book was more or less a cinematic equivalent. Both were fun and I liked I got to swoon a bit (it's been a while since I've read something where male beauty is so relentlessly celebrated). Not sure how far I'll make it in the series--already my enthusiasm is flagging a bit, as Jacob is no substitute for Edward!

[Mara]

The second book is the weakest, I think, and it's pretty interesting to see how the storylines all play out by the last book. I'd recommend sticking with it if you liked the first one.

[Malickfan]

You read the wrong Twilight.

[Ezee E]

About 80 pages into The Ruins and it's not very good. It seems like it has to detail every step as it goes along.

I like that it details small moments of philosophy as they pertain to each person. But they don't amount to much.

I'll read a little more, but I don't know if it's worth finishing.

[Duncan]

Read Darkness at Noon over the weekend. It's a great depiction of the tortured logic people can use to placate their consciences and/or to justify unjustifiable deeds. Ivanov, especially, was a good example of this. I liked that Koestler never let his protagonist become truly repentent. Full of regrets, but still justifying, still rationalizing to the end. To those who have read the book, do you think Koestler agrees with Rubashov's theory about relative maturity what with the discrete lock-chambers and all? I hope he doesn't and that this is just Rubashov theorizing away again. It doesn't make any sense to quantize history into little rooms. And this boat is still treating everybody as one mass rather than as individuals. Anyway, I don't think Koestler accepts this as true, just wondering...because his Wikipedia article makes him seem like kind of a weird guy that could potentially agree with that.

[Melville]

To those who have read the book, do you think Koestler agrees with Rubashov's theory about relative maturity what with the discrete lock-chambers and all?
I remember loving the book, but it's been more than a decade since I read it. Remind me what this theory is about, and its context in the book?

[Duncan]

I remember loving the book, but it's been more than a decade since I read it. Remind me what this theory is about, and its context in the book?

Rubashov has this theory that history is divided up into…eras, I guess is the word, which are represented by these vertically stacked lock chambers. As humanity progresses through history we chill out in this boat that steadily rises along with the water level in the lock-chambers. Thus, our level of maturity as a species is constantly rising. However, as the boat passes from one lock-chamber to the next higher one the previous one is sealed off. So all we see as a species is the current lock chamber which is filled with very shallow water. Our relative maturity is, therefore, very low even though we have risen so high from an outside frame of reference (the example he uses is the early Industrial Revolution). Rubashov suggests that we (as in Stalinist Russia) are currently in this state. If I'm remembering correctly, his conclusion then is that the revolution was mis-timed; that if we were relatively more mature the masses could handle the revolution without the need for all the repression. He develops this just prior to his his last interrogations and is still thinking about it just prior to execution.

Now that I've written it down it seems like this is definitely Rubashov's opinion, and not Koestler's. But it's just convincing enough that maybe Koestler did believe it, considering he was once a member of the Communist Party.

[lovejuice]

i read and love darkness at noon, but like melville, i don't remember much about the said theory. it sounds very "marxism" though, that is, historical materialism, so it's possible something koeslter used to believe.

duncan, if you like "a great depiction of the tortured logic people can use to placate their consciences and/or to justify unjustifiable deeds," i suggest you read kundera's the joke. it used to same device to deride the true face of communism. life is elsewhere also deals with a similar theme.

i wrote in my diary upon finishing darkness at noon that while the evil of capitalism, ala the grape of wrath or the jungle, was a logical beast with no face and no name. the evil of communism was the endless, illogical labyrinth. not to say one was better or worse than the other though.

[Duncan]

i read and love darkness at noon, but like melville, i don't remember much about the said theory. it sounds very "marxism" though, that is, historical materialism, so it's possible something koeslter used to believe.

duncan, if you like "a great depiction of the tortured logic people can use to placate their consciences and/or to justify unjustifiable deeds," i suggest you read kundera's the joke. it used to same device to deride the true face of communism. life is elsewhere also deals with a similar theme.

i wrote in my diary upon finishing darkness at noon that while the evil of capitalism, ala the grape of wrath or the jungle, was a logical beast with no face and no name. the evil of communism was the endless, illogical labyrinth. not to say one was better or worse than the other though.
I nearly bought The Joke when I was in San Francisco about a month ago. I was a bit mixed on The Unbearable Lightness of Being though so I passed. I'll keep it in mind.

I actually think Communism is a highly logical beast, even at its most oppressive, and that it is precisely this over-emphasis on logic that makes it such a failure. That's why there's so much discussion about ends and means, and the inherent absurdity involved in the arithmetic of counting with humans in Darkness at Noon. Maybe I shouldn't have said "tortured logic" earlier. The logic doesn't seem strained at all (although the assumptions its based on are). It's the people themselves that are tortured.

[Duncan]

In other news, I'm still getting through Infinite Jest bit by bit. I'm about half-way done. Some parts I really love. His satire of film theorists, his own film theory, most stuff with Joelle, most stuff in the tennis academy (especially that Eschalon game), etc. Still...it's really long and sometimes I just don't understand why he's spending sooo much time on one topic. I've come to think of the endnotes as knock-knock jokes. The superscript is the "knock-knock," the page turing is the "Who's there?" and the note itself is the smirk inducing or eye rolling cheesy punchline.

So, goals for the next month are to finish IJ and Being and Time. I'm going to re-look over the Being part of the latter before reading the Time part. I'll also probably be taking some note along the way.

[lovejuice]

I actually think Communism is a highly logical beast, even at its most oppressive, and that it is precisely this over-emphasis on logic that makes it such a failure.

the first part of your statement i have a hard time agree upon, but i am at lost with argument right now. which frustrates me since i general have a strong idea regarding this issue. i will come up with something later.

[Melville]

If you're wedded to the Communist picture of ineluctable social evolution, then that theory seems like a pretty natural explanation of the failure of modern Communist revolutions; you can't force history, it just happens at its own pace. So, yeah, since Koestler was formerly a communist, it seems like he might agree with that theory. However, particular lines of text (e.g. "How he would have liked to live and build up the theory of the relative maturity of the masses!...") suggest that the theory is at least partially just Rubashov's last, desperate bit of theorizing. In other words, I have nothing to add.

As for the logic of communism, the sections of The German Ideology that I read were pretty logical; it's just that, as Duncan said, its materialist assumptions are wacky. (The only other real communist literature I've read is The Communist Manifesto, which is pretty much all assumptions.)

[Duncan]

What are the great Communist novels? Not the ones that criticize it, but the ones that embrace it. Film has its masters of dialectical montage, and there are so many great Russian writers you would think at least one of them wrote some profound fiction on the topic. Yet I can think of none...

[Melville]

What are the great Communist novels? Not the ones that criticize it, but the ones that embrace it. Film has its masters of dialectical montage, and there are so many great Russian writers you would think at least one of them wrote some profound fiction on the topic. Yet I can think of none...
What Is to Be Done? by Chernyshevsky is pretty famous. I haven't read it though.

[Duncan]

What Is to Be Done? by Chernyshevsky is pretty famous. I haven't read it though.

Cool. Heard the name, didn't know the subject matter.

[lovejuice]

jack london's the iron heel, or perhaps that's more socialist than communist. anything by maxim gorky among which i'm led to believe that the mother is the most famous. basically anything in the tradition of socialist realism. if you happen to know thai, i can name you hundred of crappy communist novels/propaganda.

a strong case can be made, i believe, that anti-capitalist novels are the best form of pro-communist novels.

[Mysterious Dude]

So I'm going to try this thing where I will read one book from every decade in the twentieth century, in order, and then one from the current decade. I'm reading a book from the 1890's right now (Dracula), so next I'll read a book from the 1900's (maybe The Jungle), then the 1910's, and so forth. After I read a book from the 2000's, I'll read one from the 1700's (or earlier), then one for every decade of the nineteenth century. The pickings are a little slim until the 1830's, but we'll see how it goes. My idea is to get a balance of the different eras of literature. I've been trying to read the classics, and this will force me to read some contemporary literature as well.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I finished Jane Eyre. I think Mara is going to be disappointed with me. When I have a bit more time, I'll post some in-depth thoughts, but for now I'll say that I enjoyed it, but found it heavily flawed.

[Raiders]

I finished Jane Eyre. I think Mara is going to be disappointed with me. When I have a bit more time, I'll post some in-depth thoughts, but for now I'll say that I enjoyed it, but found it heavily flawed.

Mara may not be happy, but I agree with this. Still more tolerable than the other Bronte sister's big book.

[Mara]

I finished Jane Eyre. I think Mara is going to be disappointed with me. When I have a bit more time, I'll post some in-depth thoughts, but for now I'll say that I enjoyed it, but found it heavily flawed.

Hey, I'm just happy you read it! Please post thoughts later, I'd love to hear what you think.

[Mara]

And then I'll post all sorts of long boring things about the 40+ page paper I wrote in college about the cultural imperialism in the novel.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Okay, so here are my feelings on Jane Eyre. I liked the approach to organized religion. I liked that everywhere Jane turned, it created more harm than good, but it didn't reflect God, just the inability of man to understand God. I also enjoyed the story, on a purely narrative level. Jane and her romance with Mr. Rochester was definitely compelling, and had a wonderful resolution. Kept things happy minus the sappy. Always a good thing. For the most part I enjoyed Bronte's writing. She was especially exceptional with the dialogue between Jane and Rochester. All of those moments were easily the highlights of the novel. That said, occasionally she spent too much time on superfluous details. She was setting scenes I didn't really care much about, but perhaps that's just my impatience as a reader. I've never been one for a lot of detail about surroundings unless completely necessary.

My major gripes are these: I found Jane too pristine, and it was obvious that she was the embodiment of Bronte. Again, maybe it's a personal hangup, but I don't much care for characters who seem to have very few flaws, and ones who seem to be a transparent representation of the author. All of my favorite literary characters are deeply flawed individuals. Having a strong issue with Jane makes the novel much tougher to gain interest in, seeing as it's written in first person from Jane's perspective. I also thought that, at times, the story was too tidy. While it avoided an overload of sap and melodrama, it didn't refrain from putting a pretty bow on nearly everything as the story went along. I didn't find Jane's situation all that troublesome after she left the care of Mrs. Reed. At Lowood, she found a great friend and a sympathetic mentor. As soon as she left, she found Thornfield, and when that went awry, she has a moment of desperation that's soon cleaned up by one of the all time silliest coincidences in my limited experience reading literature. Bronte seemed to gloss over Jane's hardships (aside from the red room, which even then led to her getting out of the Reed home), and I found it detrimental to the impact of her triumphs. Even that moment of desperation I spoke of before (sorry, I'm trying to avoid spoilers) is quick, and I never felt any anxiety for Jane during those moments. In fact, I was surprised and a little confused that she needed so much time to recover and regain her strength. Bronte didn't do a good enough job breathing true desperation and turmoil into that scene, or any other for that matter. It seemed like I should have been feeling more sorry for her than I was, or found her a more tragic figure.

Anyway, those are first impressions. I had a hard time getting into the novel, which is in part why it took me so long to read. Four weeks for a 550 page novel isn't normal for me. Still, I enjoyed reading it, and appreciate recommendation. Val is extremely excited to watch the movie with me (the one with William Hurt), being that I wouldn't watch it until I had read the book. She thanks you for pushing me to read it. :)

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm in fear of Mara's next post. :P

Oh, and since E outed me, I'll admit that I've never read The Adventures of Tom Sawyer (nor any other Twain), and thus that will be the next book I read.

[EvilShoe]

Speaking of deeply flawed individuals: You should continue the Rabbit Angstrom-saga.
Rabbit Redux is almost as good as the first so far.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Speaking of deeply flawed individuals: You should continue the Rabbit Angstrom-saga.
Rabbit Redux is almost as good as the first so far.

I almost bought it on my last trip to B&N. I need to just cave. I'm invested in Rabbit whether I like it or not.

[EvilShoe]

I almost bought it on my last trip to B&N. I need to just cave. I'm invested in Rabbit whether I like it or not.
Too bad you already have the first, you could've just bought this:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/c2/c13392.jpg

I'm not quite sure if I hate Rabbit, or just feel bad for him.

[Mara]

I'm in fear of Mara's next post. :P


Oh, please. You made some great points.

The Brontes all had a really strange relationship with religion. They were raised to be very religious, and their father was a pastor. He had some Methodist leanings, however, and so while technically Anglican, they were suspicious of the Anglican religion, and often painted "religious" characters in their books to be deeply flawed (see St. John, in Jane Eyre, for an example.) The main characters themselves tend to follow a higher virtue than that found in earthly religion... except Emily's characters in Wuthering Heights, who are sinners all.

A note on the romance of the book: I really like it. You may have seen Jane as a paragon of virtue, but Rochester is fundamentally flawed, which is partially why generations of female readers have been head-over-heels for him. He's not an unmitigated bastard (*cough* Heathcliff *cough*) but he's hardly the "hero" that you would read about in an Austen novel, for example. Jane is plain and cold and prim, but we as the readers have to believe that there is something in Rochester's character that reaches her in a fundamental way. Unlike the heroes of earlier romances, or even the cardboard cut-out princes in Disney films and fairy tales, Jane doesn't love Rochester because he's a Good Man, she loves him because he's Edward Rochester. I'm not sure I've ever read a passage that better explained the way that I feel when I'm around someone who makes my heart go pitter-pat:



He was talking, at the moment, to Louisa and Amy Eshton. I wondered to see them receive with calm that look which seemed to me so penetrating: I expected their eyes to fall, their colour to rise under it; yet I was glad when I found they were in no sense moved. "He is not to them what he is to me," I thought: "he is not of their kind. I believe he is of mine-- I am sure he is-- I feel so akin to him-- I understand the language of his countenance and movements: though rank and wealth sever us widely, I have something in my brain and heart, in my blood and nerves, that assimilates me mentally to him."

As far as the crazy coincidences go, I admit they are annoying. They show a certain sloppiness of writing-- an addiction to the happy ending, one might say. The only book that ever pulled them off was Tom Jones, which played them for comic effect.

My favorite parts of the novel are how well Bronte plays the creepiness-- the burning bed, Mr. Mason bleeding all over Jane's hands in the moonlight, or the description of you-know-who rending her wedding veil in the middle of the night.

It's interesting to note how revolutionary the book was for its time. Even assuming, as everyone did, that the book was written by a man (it was published under the author's name "Currer Bell") nobody had ever read anything quite like it. A few reviews:



Jane Eyre is, indeed, one of the coarsest books which we ever perused. It is not that the professed sentiments of the writer are absolutely wrong or forbidding, or that the odd sort of religious notions which she puts forth are much worse than is usual in popular tales. It is rather that there is a tendency to relapse into that class of ideas, expressions, and circumstances, which is most connected with the grosser and more animal portion of our nature; and that the detestable morality of the most prominent character in the story is accompanied with every sort of palliation short of unblushing justification (1848).



Jane Eyre is throughout the personification of the unregenerate and undisciplined spirit, the more dangerous to exhibit from that prestige of principle and self-control which is liable to dazzle the eye too much for it to observe the inefficient and unsound foundation on which it rests. It is true Jane does right, and exerts great moral strength, but it is the strength of a mere heathen mind which is a law unto itself. No Christian grace is perceptible upon her.

Altogether the autobiography of Jane Eyre is preeminently an anti-Christian composition. There is throughout it a murmuring against the comforts of the rich and against the privations of the poor, which, as far as each individual is concerned, is a murmuring against God's appointment--there is a proud and perpetual assertion of the rights of man, for which we find no authority either in God's word or in God's providence--there is that pervading tone of ungodly discontent which is at once the most prominent and the most subtle evil which the law and the pulpit, which all civilized society in fact, has at the present day to contend with. We do not hesitate to say that the tone of mind and thought which has overthrown authority and violated every code human and divine abroad, and fostered Chartism and rebellion at home is the same which has also written Jane Eyre (1847).


They were particularly upset by the novel's attitude towards sexuality, especially Rochester:



The coarseness of portions of the novel, consisting not so much in the vulgarity of Rochester's conversation as the naïve description of some of his acts—his conduct for three weeks before his intended marriage, for instance, should be laid partly to the ignorance of the authoress of what ruffianism is, and partly to her ignorance of what love is. No woman who had ever truly loved could have mistaken so completely the Rochester type, or could have made her heroine love a man of proud, selfish, ungovernable appetites, which no sophistry can lift out of lust.

OH NOOESSS! LUST!

Other reviews loved it, finding it refreshing and challenging.

[Kurosawa Fan]

You'll have to excuse my nervousness. I'm not used to people being rational with something they're passionate about. :)

I agree about the creepiness, especially the veil. That was one of the highlights of the novel for me. As was the paragraph you quoted (and it's not the only one). When the story centered around Jane and Edward, it blossomed. When it strayed from those two (or had yet to bring them together) is when it struggled to grab me and keep me interested. And that could have to do with my ambivalence toward Jane herself.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post that. I'm glad I wasn't off about the religion, though I was fairly confident as Bronte didn't exactly hide it from the reader.

[Mara]

You'll have to excuse my nervousness. I'm not used to people being rational with something they're passionate about. :)


HORRORS! No, seriously, I love it, but I'm willing to admit its flaws. As a matter of fact, the 40+ page paper I wrote on it was essentially a criticism: pointing out how the characters, especially Jane, believe that England is the bastion of purity and virtue in the world, and they had a creeping fear that the conquering of "savage" nations (especially Burmuda and India) might taint the integrity of the English.

[D_Davis]

Mara -

Have you read Arthur Machen, MR James, Robert W. Chambers, William Hope Hodgeson, or an of the other weird fiction authors of the late 1800s, early 1900s?

If not, I imagine you might like some of them, especially Chambers' collection The King in Yellow, and The Collected Ghost Stories of MR James. They are highly romantic, and infinitely unsettling.

[jesse]

Jane and her romance with Mr. Rochester was definitely compelling, and had a wonderful resolution. Really? This is what put me most off on the novel--after everything she stands by her man. It's been too long to remember specific reasons why that was my reaction, but it certainly left a permanent, lingering distaste.

[Kurosawa Fan]

HORRORS! No, seriously, I love it, but I'm willing to admit its flaws. As a matter of fact, the 40+ page paper I wrote on it was essentially a criticism: pointing out how the characters, especially Jane, believe that England is the bastion of purity and virtue in the world, and they had a creeping fear that the conquering of "savage" nations (especially Burmuda and India) might taint the integrity of the English.

Ha. You know, when they were talking all about how Jane wouldn't survive in India, I just chalked it up to something happening, like a cholera outbreak or something, in history around that time that I just wasn't aware of, and moved on with the novel. I never thought of it in those terms.


Really? This is what put me most off on the novel--after everything she stands by her man. It's been too long to remember specific reasons why that was my reaction, but it certainly left a permanent, lingering distaste.

I guess I should amend it to say that, while it wasn't the ideal ending, I was happy that it wasn't a pretty scene, what with the condition of Thornfield and Rochester. I had no problem with her coming back to him, because it was made clear before she left that she was still in love with him, and that leaving was an extremely difficult thing for her to do (she even stops by his bedroom door, hears him pacing, and almost reaches for the knob to tell him she'd become his mistress before making her escape), but I appreciated that, despite the happy ending, there was a little ugliness to go along with it. Rochester had paid for his crimes against Jane and was left withering and alone until she comes back to him. Satisfying enough for what is at heart a romance.

[Mara]

Really? This is what put me most off on the novel--after everything she stands by her man. It's been too long to remember specific reasons why that was my reaction, but it certainly left a permanent, lingering distaste.

EDIT: Should probably spoil this...

During the bulk of the novel Jane is shown as being inferior to Rochester-- in rank, wealth, and stature. She's small and easily governed. By the end, he has been both physically and socially diminished-- has lost his sight and his home, while she has been enlarged, having gained a fortune and some personal confidence. I think the idea is that by the end, they can finally meet each other as equals.

But, yes, I know some people who really wished she'd given him a swift kick to the shins.

[Sycophant]

KF, regardless of how you feel about Tom Sawyer, you must read Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Must. How you are an American over the age of 20 and haven't read that book is a mystery to me.

A mystery.

[Benny Profane]

Speaking of deeply flawed individuals: You should continue the Rabbit Angstrom-saga.
Rabbit Redux is almost as good as the first so far.

Give this man a cookie.

[Kurosawa Fan]

KF, regardless of how you feel about Tom Sawyer, you must read Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Must. How you are an American over the age of 20 and haven't read that book is a mystery to me.

A mystery.

I rejected any suggestions made by teachers in an effort to rebel. That is how. I was an idiot who did the opposite of what any authority would have me do.

But breathe easy. I have Huck Finn in my possession and plan to read it this year.

[Benny Profane]

Favorite deeply flawed literary characters. Go!

1. Benny Profane (natch)
2. Henry Chinaski
3. Rabbit Angstrom
4. Holden Caulfield
5. Moses Herzog

[Sycophant]

I rejected any suggestions made by teachers in an effort to rebel. That is how. I was an idiot who did the opposite of what any authority would have me do.

But breathe easy. I have Huck Finn in my possession and plan to read it this year.

You will be pleased to know my breath has returned to a normal and comfortable pattern. Thanks.

I kinda did the same thing in high school, except I learned and read just enough about each book I was assigned to pass tests and bullshit an essay or two. Huck is one of the few books I read cover-to-cover in (Honors!) English in high school.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I can't rank, but five random favorites:

Raskolnikov
Holden Caulfield
Ignatius J. Reilly
Henry Chinaski
Yossarian

[Mara]

Ha. You know, when they were talking all about how Jane wouldn't survive in India, I just chalked it up to something happening, like a cholera outbreak or something, in history around that time that I just wasn't aware of, and moved on with the novel. I never thought of it in those terms.

Not just that, but think about they way they discuss Bermuda and Jamaica. It's a place that drives people mad-- Like Bertha and her brother, both gone insane with the heat. It is also suggested it leads to drunkeness and sexual promiscuity, especially for poor Bertha.

Even Rochester, when in Jamaica, begins to go mad until he feels a cool breeze off the water that makes him think of England.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Not just that, but think about they way they discuss Bermuda and Jamaica. It's a place that drives people mad-- Like Bertha and her brother, both gone insane with the heat. It is also suggested it leads to drunkeness and sexual promiscuity, especially for poor Bertha.

Even Rochester, when in Jamaica, begins to go mad until he feels a cool breeze off the water that makes him think of England.

I feel a bit ashamed of not catching this. Seems so obvious now, but it was hidden in excuses, such as a "family history" of madness. Still, I should have seen through that.

[Mara]

I feel a bit ashamed of not catching this. Seems so obvious now, but it was hidden in excuses, such as a "family history" of madness. Still, I should have seen through that.

Actually, very few people read the novel that way, but I really think it adds something. (Like the scene when Rochester dresses up as an Indian gypsy, etc.) I took a freaking awesome class in college on English Imperialism in the Novel, which changed certain books for me forever (Manchester Park, A Passage to India, Jane Eyre, etc.)

[Melville]

Johan Nilsen Nagel
Raskolnikov
Ivan Karamazov
The Underground Man
The narrator of Hunger

All those characters are pretty similar to one another. Variety be damned!

[Benny Profane]

How did I forget Raskalnikov FOR THE LOVE OF DOG!

[Ezee E]

Yeah, 120 pages into The Ruins and I'll just stop. The movie follows it pretty good, with a few changes here and there, and it's just not very good.

[Kurosawa Fan]

How did I forget Raskalnikov FOR THE LOVE OF DOG!

You're right to feel ashamed.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yep. The Rask is pretty much the best. I also give props to Ignatius J. Reilly and Don Quixote.

[Sycophant]

Guys, what's the point of flawed literary characters? Ugh, they're so unlikeable. Completely ruins a lot of books for me.

1. Ignatius J. Reilly
2. Ignatius J. Reilly
3. Ignatius J. Reilly
4. The butler in Remains of the Day
5. Ignatius J. Reilly

This list is deficient because I don't think about this much so don't have answers at the ready

[Mara]

Can I say King Lear? (I'm still working on my list.)

[Hugh_Grant]

Mara:
You may have answered this already, but have you read Wide Sargasso Sea?

[Mara]

Mara:
You may have answered this already, but have you read Wide Sargasso Sea?

Yeah, and I liked the idea of it much more than the novel itself. After reading Jane Eyre, I want to know more about Bertha Mason, and so a revisionist book based on her experiences seems like a great idea.

However, the book was a disappointment. The style was a little pedestrian, and the drastic changes in the characters didn't make much sense. I found the whole thing underwhelming.

[Mara]

I'm keeping King Lear, Othello, and Lady Macbeth. Shakespeare did deeply flawed very well.

I'd also add Humbert Humbert, and the grandmother from the short story A Good Man is Hard to Find (http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~surette/goodman.html) by Flannery O'Connor.

[Melville]

Yeah, and I liked the idea of it much more than the novel itself. After reading Jane Eyre, I want to know more about Bertha Mason, and so a revisionist book based on her experiences seems like a great idea.

However, the book was a disappointment. The style was a little pedestrian, and the drastic changes in the characters didn't make much sense. I found the whole thing underwhelming.
:eek:

That doesn't bode well for my chances of liking Jane Eyre. I thought Wide Sargasso Sea's chopped prose, in combination with its evocation of the tropical setting and the almost mythic portrayal of Rochester as Other, achieved a tremendous, fever-dream mood and a harrowing portrait of Bertha's unmoored psyche. (Though it's been about ten years since I read it.)

[Mara]

That doesn't bode well for my chances of liking Jane Eyre. I thought Wide Sargasso Sea's chopped prose, in combination with its evocation of the tropical setting and the almost mythic portrayal of Rochester as Other, achieved a tremendous, fever-dream mood and a harrowing portrait of Bertha's unmoored psyche. (Though it's been about ten years since I read it.)

Everyone loves it but me. I dunno.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm keeping King Lear, Othello, and Lady Macbeth. Shakespeare did deeply flawed very well.

I'd also add Humbert Humbert, and the grandmother from the short story A Good Man is Hard to Find (http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/%7Esurette/goodman.html) by Flannery O'Connor.

I'm literally angry that I didn't list those last two.

[Mara]

I'm literally angry that I didn't list those last two.

You know when you lick your finger and pretend to make a vertical mark on your side of the chalkboard? We need an emoticon for that.

[Mara]

Mara -

Have you read Arthur Machen, MR James, Robert W. Chambers, William Hope Hodgeson, or an of the other weird fiction authors of the late 1800s, early 1900s?

If not, I imagine you might like some of them, especially Chambers' collection The King in Yellow, and The Collected Ghost Stories of MR James. They are highly romantic, and infinitely unsettling.

Oops, I meant to reply to this but got swept up in all The Eyre Affair. (Ha! Literary allusions. But don't read it, it's a mess.)

I haven't read those. My weird fiction of that time is pretty much limited to Poe (love him), Robert Louis Stevenson (does he count?), Frankenstein (hated it-- sorry) and Lovecraft, who I love or hate depending on my mood.

Oh, and can we count the not-very-short story The Yellow Wallpaper (http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/gcarr/19cUSWW/CPG/TYW.html), by Charlotte Perkins Gilman? I consider it creepy and weird in the highest order, but it always gets lumped into early feminist writing.

Anyway, I'll have to check those out. It's a great subgenre.

[Ezee E]

Dropped off The Ruins and I'm going with I, Fatty.

[D_Davis]

Oops, I meant to reply to this but got swept up in all The Eyre Affair. (Ha! Literary allusions. But don't read it, it's a mess.)

I haven't read those. My weird fiction of that time is pretty much limited to Poe (love him), Robert Louis Stevenson (does he count?), Frankenstein (hated it-- sorry) and Lovecraft, who I love or hate depending on my mood.

Oh, and can we count the not-very-short story The Yellow Wallpaper (http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/gcarr/19cUSWW/CPG/TYW.html), by Charlotte Perkins Gilman? I consider it creepy and weird in the highest order, but it always gets lumped into early feminist writing.

Anyway, I'll have to check those out. It's a great subgenre.

I think Stevenson counts - Machen is often compared to him.

I think you will really enjoy The King in Yellow, and the other tales in that book. I was constantly reminded of something like Henry James' Daisy Miller, but with strange things happening under the surface.

And hear you on the Lovecraft - I often feel the same way, but lately I've been loving him a great deal more. Same goes for Clark Ashton Smith.

And I guess I should throw Algernon Blackwood in the mix.

Thanks for that link, I will read that story, and I'll post one in return for:

The Drunkard's Dream by Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu (http://www.online-literature.com/lefanu/1775/)

This is great little tale.

[lovejuice]

Oops, I meant to reply to this but got swept up in all The Eyre Affair. (Ha! Literary allusions. But don't read it, it's a mess.)


fforde? i LOVE it. i too don't think the tie-in to bronte's novel is entirely well-done, if that bothers you. but the novel is very energetic and contains enough winks to satisfy any literature nerd. i absolutely love Richard III scene and the allusion to the moons of uranus.

[lovejuice]

ernesto, an unfinished semi-autobiographical by umberto saba, is really good. one of those amazing books that successfully cramps a lot into merely 100 pages.

[Mara]

fforde? i LOVE it. i too don't think the tie-in to bronte's novel is entirely well-done, if that bothers you. but the novel is very energetic and contains enough winks to satisfy any literature nerd. i absolutely love Richard III scene and the allusion to the moons of uranus.

I read it several years ago, and the idea was extremely interesting, but I felt like it was a little too ambitious for its own good. The wink-wink do-you-read-I-read-too nods overloaded what there was of a story.

Not a terrible book, by any means. I'd call it an interesting failure.

[Benny Profane]

I am trudging through Blood Meridian. There are some parts I really like, but McCarthy is repeatedly committing my number one literary crime: endless descriptions of nature. Maybe it's just me, but I really fucking hate reading about flowers and landscapes for pages at a time. I get how it ties in to the harshness and desolateness of the book's themes, but seriously, enough is enough.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I am trudging through Blood Meridian. There are some parts I really like, but McCarthy is repeatedly committing my number one literary crime: endless descriptions of nature. Maybe it's just me, but I really fucking hate reading about flowers and landscapes for pages at a time. I get how it ties in to the harshness and desolateness of the book's themes, but seriously, enough is enough.

Nope, I just got through complaining about that with Jane Eyre, and wondered aloud if it's just my impatience as a reader. I'm with you all the way.

[Raiders]

Seems much more appropriate in Blood Meridian than Jane Eyre. The landscape is probably the biggest character in the book.

[lovejuice]

can you just skip them, all those floral and faunal descriptions? in his harvard lecture, eco raises this interesting idea that some passages are written even if a writer know his/her readers will skip it. the effect/aim of such passages is to elongate the "narrative time" -- if i remember his term correctly. even if the "reading time" is zero, the very act of skipping the passage will extend the perceptive time readers spend in grasping the narrative flow.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm incapable of skipping because I live in fear of missing something important. Even skimming scares me at times. I like to take in everything the book has to offer.

[Benny Profane]

can you just skip them, all those floral and faunal descriptions? in his harvard lecture, eco raises this interesting idea that some passages are written even if a writer know his/her readers will skip it. the effect/aim of such passages is to elongate the "narrative time" -- if i remember his term correctly. even if the "reading time" is zero, the very act of skipping the passage will extend the perceptive time readers spend in grasping the narrative flow.

I reject this notion. Not saying authors don't employ this, just saying it's fkn stupid if they do.

[MadMan]

After putting it off for two years, I've finally gotten around to starting A Confederacy of Dunces. 52 pages in and I'm hooked.

[Kurosawa Fan]

After putting it off for two years, I've finally gotten around to starting A Confederacy of Dunces. 52 pages in and I'm hooked.

Good man.

[Russ]

After putting it off for two years, I've finally gotten around to starting A Confederacy of Dunces. 52 pages in and I'm hooked.
My favorite book. You are in for a treat.

[Melville]

I started reading Gravity's Rainbow a couple days ago. I'm about 50 pages into it. So far I'm loving it, though there's probably one word or reference per page that I don't understand. I keep thinking I should take note of them to look up later, but then I can't be bothered.

[Raiders]

I started reading Gravity's Rainbow a couple days ago. I'm about 50 pages into it. So far I'm loving it, though there's probably one word or reference per page that I don't understand. I keep thinking I should take note of them to look up later, but then I can't be bothered.

On a related note, I have started V.. For real this time (I believe I had lied and said I had started it about a month ago).

[megladon8]

I'm incapable of skipping because I live in fear of missing something important. Even skimming scares me at times. I like to take in everything the book has to offer.


Me too.

I've gotten over my whole "shame" of being a slow reader. I'd rather read slowly and carefully than skim or skip and miss something vital.

Plus, when I'm really enjoying something, I tend to speed up naturally anyways.

[Mysterious Dude]

I read Dracula. It is inevitably paired with Frankenstein (whether that's fair or not), and I don't think it holds up very well in comparison. Dracula has quite a few narrators, and all are united in the goal of destroying Dracula. It's pretty much a classic good vs. evil story. Frankenstein is not nearly as black and white. Both books have strong Christian themes, but in Frankenstein, both the monster and the doctor are guilty of committing evil. The monster also has a much stronger voice than Dracula, and is allowed to narrate several chapters himself. Dracula has almost no voice at all. I think he has more dialogue in the 1931 film than he has in the novel. It's interesting that he has a reputation for being attractive and appealing, since that doesn't come across in the book at all.

[Benny Profane]

I started reading Gravity's Rainbow a couple days ago. I'm about 50 pages into it. So far I'm loving it, though there's probably one word or reference per page that I don't understand. I keep thinking I should take note of them to look up later, but then I can't be bothered.

www.pynchonwiki.com

[thefourthwall]

I read Dracula. It is inevitably paired with Frankenstein (whether that's fair or not), and I don't think it holds up very well in comparison. Dracula has quite a few narrators, and all are united in the goal of destroying Dracula. It's pretty much a classic good vs. evil story. Frankenstein is not nearly as black and white. Both books have strong Christian themes, but in Frankenstein, both the monster and the doctor are guilty of committing evil. The monster also has a much stronger voice than Dracula, and is allowed to narrate several chapters himself. Dracula has almost no voice at all. I think he has more dialogue in the 1931 film than he has in the novel. It's interesting that he has a reputation for being attractive and appealing, since that doesn't come across in the book at all.

I looove Dracula, but it's been a long time since I've read Frankenstein and I've taught Dracula a number of times, so I don't know that I'm completely objective. But, I do love the pieced together 'scientific evidence' of Dracula, the whole issue of a reliable narrator, plus the clashing Victorian/Modern societies and all the fears about the Other and female sexuality (that's where I think the 'sexiness' of Dracula's character comes across--he gives free reign to women to act on their own physical impulses, something Victorian women were not even allowed to have).

[Mysterious Dude]

(that's where I think the 'sexiness' of Dracula's character comes across--he gives free reign to women to act on their own physical impulses, something Victorian women were not even allowed to have).
I don't get that at all. The one scene where the women are acting on their impulses (by surrounding Jonathan in the beginning), Dracula comes in and scolds them. Unless you're talking about their impulse to eat babies.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Finally started Tom Sawyer last night. Read the first fifty pages, and am loving the hell out of it. The sense of shame of not having read it yet is only deepening.

[Melville]

www.pynchonwiki.com
Thanks. I'll definitely use that if I'm really curious about a reference. But I'm almost 150 pages into the book, and I haven't started noting them yet, so I probably won't start. (And I don't really want to go turn on the computer and look up a reference while I'm reading.) Based on the few references I actually have looked up, I don't think understanding all of them would add much to my reading experience, since they are generally pretty obscure bits of 20th century trivia; being aware of the fact that Pynchon is referencing such obscurities certainly adds something, but knowing the particular details doesn't seem all that important. However, an annotated edition of the book would be great.

Anyway, this is definitely looking to become one of my favorite books. I'm sure I'll have plenty to say when I finish it.

[Benny Profane]

(And I don't really want to go turn on the computer and look up a reference while I'm reading.)

I hear ya. I would look them up after I finished a chapter. It didn't add much, like you said, but he fascinates me so I'd try to learn all I could.

[Raiders]

Does his language become more difficult after V.? Because so far (about 40 pages in) I haven't really had any trouble. There's been the occasional word I suppose, but nothing to break the flow when I'm reading.

[thefourthwall]

I don't get that at all. The one scene where the women are acting on their impulses (by surrounding Jonathan in the beginning), Dracula comes in and scolds them. Unless you're talking about their impulse to eat babies.

The women in Dracula's castle continually talk about wanting to "kiss" Johnathan, which I read as standing for a whole lot more. Dracula only scolds them because he's being territorial, not because of what they're doing, just who they're doing it to.

Also, Dracula's power draws out Lucy to walk about in the middle of the night in her nightgown, which was extremely scandalous at the time--almost like she was a prostitute. Once she is turned into a vamp, her natural motherly instincts (what Victorian society read as essential and automatic for all women) are gone as she tries to attack children (or eat babies).

Finally, Dracula's scene when he is biting Mina is extremely sensual in terms of the exchange of bites and blood.

I've read criticism that suggests that adaptations of Dracula always put their ideas and fears about sexuality onto his character, so while the Victorians were worried about losing control of women, who were getting jobs and expressing opinions different than their husbands (I'm painting broad strokes here), our contemporary society doesn't fear this as much, so you can have a much more appealing, acceptable Count (Gerard Butler?) rather than the pure, ugly evil of Stoker's book.

[Melville]

Does his language become more difficult after V.? Because so far (about 40 pages in) I haven't really had any trouble. There's been the occasional word I suppose, but nothing to break the flow when I'm reading.
There's the occasional really long, winding sentence in Gravity's Rainbow, and a lot of the sentences have the structure of lists (even when they aren't explicitly listing things, as they often are), which can make their flow of ideas difficult to follow, and there's plenty of unorthodox grammar and syntax and mid-sentence jumps between ideas. But overall, I don't find the language to be particularly difficult.

[Benny Profane]

Does his language become more difficult after V.? Because so far (about 40 pages in) I haven't really had any trouble. There's been the occasional word I suppose, but nothing to break the flow when I'm reading.

The Stencil half of V. is much more difficult than the Profane.

[Melville]

Any mention of difficult language always reminds me of this passage from Ulysses:


Universally that person's acumen is esteemed very little perceptive concerning whatsoever matters are being held as most profitable by mortals with sapience endowed to be studied who is ignorant of that which the most in doctrine erudite and certainly by reason of that in them high mind's ornament deserving of veneration constantly maintain when by general consent they affirm that other circumstances being equal by no exterior splendour is the prosperity of a nation more efficaciously asserted than by the measure of how far forward may have progressed the tribute of its solicitude for that proliferant continuance which of evils the original if it be absent when fortunately present constitutes the certain sign of omnipollent nature's incorrupted benefaction.

It's so difficult that it's hilarious. (If you haven't read Ulysses, don't worry: the rest of the book isn't like that.)

[Benny Profane]

Any mention of difficult language always reminds me of this passage from Ulysses:



It's so difficult that it's hilarious. (If you haven't read Ulysses, don't worry: the rest of the book isn't like that.)

It's like he vomited on his keyboard and out came that nonsense.

[Mara]

It's so difficult that it's hilarious. (If you haven't read Ulysses, don't worry: the rest of the book isn't like that.)

It reminds me of Lucky's monologue in Waiting for Godot:

LUCKY: Given the existence as uttered forth in the public works of Puncher and Wattmann of a personal God quaquaquaqua with white beard quaquaquaqua outside time without extension who from the heights of divine apathia divine athambia divine aphasia loves us dearly with some exceptions for reasons unknown but time will tell and suffers like the divine Miranda with those who for reasons unknown but time will tell are plunged in torment plunged in fire whose fire flames if that continues and who can doubt it will fire the firmament that is to say blast heaven to hell so blue still and calm so calm with a calm which even though intermittent is better than nothing but not so fast and considering what is more that as a result of the labours left unfinished crowned by the Acacacacademy of Anthropopopometry of Essy-in-Possy of Testew and Cunard it is established beyond all doubt all other doubt than that which clings to the labours of men that as a result of the labours unfinished of Testew and Cunard it is established as hereinafter but not so fast for reasons unknown that as a result of the public works of Puncher and Wattmann it is established beyond all doubt that in view of the labours of Fartov and Belcher left unfinished for reasons unknown of Testew and Cunard left unfinished it is established what many deny that man in Possy of Testew and Cunard that man in Essy that man in short that man in brief in spite of the strides of alimentation and defecation is seen to waste and pine waste and pine and concurrently simultaneously what is more for reasons unknown in spite of the strides of physical culture the practice of sports such as tennis football running cycling swimming flying floating riding gliding conating camogie skating tennis of all kinds dying flying sports of all sorts autumn summer winter winter tennis of all kinds hockey of all sorts penicilline and succedanea in a word I resume and concurrently simultaneously for reasons unknown to shrink and dwindle in spite of the tennis I resume flying gliding golf over nine and eighteen holes tennis of all sorts in a word for reasons unknown in Feckham Peckham Fulham Clapham namely concurrently simultaneously what is more for reasons unknown but time will tell to shrink and dwindle I resume Fulham Clapham in a word the dead loss per caput since the death of Bishop Berkeley being to the tune of one inch four ounce per caput approximately by and large more or less to the nearest decimal good measure round figures stark naked in the stockinged feet in Connemara in a word for reasons unknown no matter what matter the facts are there and considering what is more much more grave that in the light of the labours lost of Steinweg and Peterman it appears what is more much more grave that in the light the light the light of the labours lost of Steinweg and Peterman that in the plains in the mountains by the seas by the rivers running water running fire the air is the same and than the earth namely the air and then the earth in the great cold the great dark the air and the earth abode of stones in the great cold alas alas in the year of their Lord six hundred and something the air the earth the sea the earth abode of stones in the great deeps the great cold an sea on land and in the air I resume for reasons unknown in spite of the tennis the facts are there but time will tell I resume alas alas on on in short in fine on on abode of stones who can doubt it I resume but not so fast I resume the skull to shrink and waste and concurrently simultaneously what is more for reasons unknown in spite of the tennis on on the beard the flames the tears the stones so blue so calm alas alas on on the skull the skull the skull the skull in Connemara in spite of the tennis the labours abandoned left unfinished graver still abode of stones in a word I resume alas alas abandoned unfinished the skull the skull in Connemara in spite of the tennis the skull alas the stones Cunard (mêlée, final vociferations) tennis... the stones... so calm... Cunard... unfinished...

[lovejuice]

It reminds me of Lucky's monologue in Waiting for Godot:

LUCKY: Given the existence as uttered forth in the public works of Puncher and Wattmann of a personal God quaquaquaqua with white beard quaquaquaqua outside time without extension who from the heights of divine apathia divine athambia divine aphasia loves us dearly with some exceptions for reasons unknown but time will tell and suffers like the divine Miranda with those who for reasons unknown but time will tell are plunged in torment plunged in fire whose fire flames if that continues and who can doubt it will fire the firmament that is to say blast heaven to hell so blue still and calm so calm with a calm which even though intermittent is better than nothing but not so fast and considering what is more that as a result of the labours left unfinished crowned by the Acacacacademy of Anthropopopometry of Essy-in-Possy of Testew and Cunard it is established beyond all doubt all other doubt than that which clings to the labours of men that as a result of the labours unfinished of Testew and Cunard it is established as hereinafter but not so fast for reasons unknown that as a result of the public works of Puncher and Wattmann it is established beyond all doubt that in view of the labours of Fartov and Belcher left unfinished for reasons unknown of Testew and Cunard left unfinished it is established what many deny that man in Possy of Testew and Cunard that man in Essy that man in short that man in brief in spite of the strides of alimentation and defecation is seen to waste and pine waste and pine and concurrently simultaneously what is more for reasons unknown in spite of the strides of physical culture the practice of sports such as tennis football running cycling swimming flying floating riding gliding conating camogie skating tennis of all kinds dying flying sports of all sorts autumn summer winter winter tennis of all kinds hockey of all sorts penicilline and succedanea in a word I resume and concurrently simultaneously for reasons unknown to shrink and dwindle in spite of the tennis I resume flying gliding golf over nine and eighteen holes tennis of all sorts in a word for reasons unknown in Feckham Peckham Fulham Clapham namely concurrently simultaneously what is more for reasons unknown but time will tell to shrink and dwindle I resume Fulham Clapham in a word the dead loss per caput since the death of Bishop Berkeley being to the tune of one inch four ounce per caput approximately by and large more or less to the nearest decimal good measure round figures stark naked in the stockinged feet in Connemara in a word for reasons unknown no matter what matter the facts are there and considering what is more much more grave that in the light of the labours lost of Steinweg and Peterman it appears what is more much more grave that in the light the light the light of the labours lost of Steinweg and Peterman that in the plains in the mountains by the seas by the rivers running water running fire the air is the same and than the earth namely the air and then the earth in the great cold the great dark the air and the earth abode of stones in the great cold alas alas in the year of their Lord six hundred and something the air the earth the sea the earth abode of stones in the great deeps the great cold an sea on land and in the air I resume for reasons unknown in spite of the tennis the facts are there but time will tell I resume alas alas on on in short in fine on on abode of stones who can doubt it I resume but not so fast I resume the skull to shrink and waste and concurrently simultaneously what is more for reasons unknown in spite of the tennis on on the beard the flames the tears the stones so blue so calm alas alas on on the skull the skull the skull the skull in Connemara in spite of the tennis the labours abandoned left unfinished graver still abode of stones in a word I resume alas alas abandoned unfinished the skull the skull in Connemara in spite of the tennis the skull alas the stones Cunard (mêlée, final vociferations) tennis... the stones... so calm... Cunard... unfinished...


oh dear. i never realize how long this is. pretty cool.

and my contribution? from the critique of pure reason.
What I call applied logic (contrary to the usual meaning of this title, according to which it should contain certain exercises for which pure logic gives the rules) is a representation of the understanding and of the rules of its necessary employment in concreto, that is, under the accidental subjective conditions which may hinder or help its application, and which are all given only empirically. It treats of attention, its impediments and consequences, of the source of error, of the state of doubt, hesitation, and conviction, etc. Pure general logic stands to it in the same relation as pure ethics, which contains only the necessary moral laws of a free will in general, stands to the doctrine of the virtues strictly so called -- the
doctrine which considers these laws under the limitations of the feelings, inclinations, and passions to which men are more or less subject. Such a doctrine can never furnish a true and demonstrated science, because, like applied logic, it depends on empirical and psychological principles.
i just pick one at random. not a particularly hard passage.

[Melville]

It's like he vomited on his keyboard and out came that nonsense.
Yeah, but only if he vomited because he'd been drinking awesome all day. (The sentence makes more sense in the context of the chapter it's in. The chapter is narrated in a sequence of styles that represent the evolution of European language from ancient Latin to modern Irish slang.)

[Mara]

oh dear. i never realize how long this is. pretty cool.

If a character is only going to speak once, you may as well go to town.

[Melville]

and my contribution? from the critique of pure reason.
Yeah, a lot of philosophy is written in unfortunately dense prose, though I don't think Kant stands out as being one of the most difficult. In some cases the subtlety or complexity of the ideas being presented simply requires such density, in other cases the difficult prose is purposely intended to disrupt the reader's usual thought patterns in order to get them to think from a fresh angle, but in some cases, such as Kant's, it seems like the author just isn't a good enough writer to explain his ideas in simpler language.


Regarding the Beckett quote, it seems more like traditional stream of consciousness writing than the passage from Ulysses. The reason I always think of that passage is that it's basically a complete sentence—but a really complicated one (with the commas removed). Though I guess its use of "who" screws things up. ("The man's acumen is poor who disagrees with this" is incorrect, right?)

[lovejuice]

Yeah, a lot of philosophy is written in unfortunately dense prose, though I don't think Kant stands out as being one of the most difficult...but in some cases, such as Kant's, it seems like the author just isn't a good enough writer to explain his ideas in simpler language.

there's this funny quotation from sorensen's philosophy and the labyrinths of the mind. in his discussion of kant, sorensen says that the original critique is so baffling that german students have to read haywood's english translation. in sorensen's words, "the critique loses something in the original." :lol:

[Melville]

the critique loses something in the original."
:lol:

Nice.

[Milky Joe]

Yeah, but only if he vomited because he'd been drinking awesome all day. (The sentence makes more sense in the context of the chapter it's in. The chapter is narrated in a sequence of styles that represent the evolution of European language from ancient Latin to modern Irish slang.)

Aye. That paragraph in particular is modeled on ancient Roman legal texts, I believe. This is one of my favorite passages from Oxen of the Sun, this one from towards the end of the chapter/language/child's development:


The air without is impregnated with raindew moisture, life essence celestial, glistening on Dublin stone there under starshiny coelum. God's air, the Allfather's air, scintillant circumambient cessile air. Breathe it deep into thee. By heaven, Theodore Purefoy, thou hast done a doughty deed and no botch! Thou art, I vow, the remarkablest progenitor barring none in this chaffering allincluding most farraginous chronicle. Astounding! In her lay a Godframed Godgiven preformed possibility which thou hast fructified with thy modicum of man's work. Cleave to her! Serve! Toil on, labour like a very bandog and let scholarment and all Malthusiasts go hang. Thou art all their daddies, Theodore. Art drooping under thy load, bemoiled with butcher's bills at home and ingots (not thine!) in the countinghouse? Head up! For every newbegotten thou shalt gather thy homer of ripe wheat.

[Melville]

Aye. That paragraph in particular is modeled on ancient Roman legal texts, I believe.
I heard Tacitus. Though, as with the references in Gravity's Rainbow, you don't need to know the specifics to understand what the chapter is getting at.

That passage you quoted is great. "In her lay a Godframed Godgiven preformed possibility"—pro-life protesters should quote that!

Speaking of Joyce and difficult language, before starting Gravity's Rainbow I considered, for the umpteenth time, reading Finnegans Wake. The first couple pages convinced me, once again, that I need to have more mental energy and a couple months of spare time before I can properly tackle it. It's in its own universe of difficulty. (Well, Hegel at his worst might compare to it.)

[Milky Joe]

Speaking of Joyce and difficult language, before starting Gravity's Rainbow I considered, for the umpteenth time, reading Finnegans Wake. The first couple pages convinced me, once again, that I need to have more mental energy and a couple months of spare time before I can properly tackle it. It's in its own universe of difficulty. (Well, Hegel at his worst might compare to it.)

To my mind it's almost a useless enterprise to try and "read" the Wake like it's just another book. It's nearly impossible, unless like you said, you have an absurd amount of free time and preferably have a graduate seminar or something with which to go through it. I find that it's rewarding to just read it in snippets: pick it up and turn to a random chapter or page or paragraph (or sentence... or word, for that matter) and just dive in for all your worth until you get tired (or frustrated or overwhelmed or all of these things). After all, if you were to read it front to back like a regular book, you'd just end up back where you started...

[Melville]

To my mind it's almost a useless enterprise to try and "read" the Wake like it's just another book. It's nearly impossible, unless like you said, you have an absurd amount of free time and preferably have a graduate seminar or something with which to go through it. I find that it's rewarding to just read it in snippets: pick it up and turn to a random chapter or page or paragraph (or sentence... or word, for that matter) and just dive in for all your worth until you get tired (or frustrated or overwhelmed or all of these things). After all, if you were to read it front to back like a regular book, you'd just end up back where you started...
I've been thinking of reading it in hypertext format, using one of these sites:

http://www.fweet.org/
http://finwake.com/

Though they seem to explain the more obvious things rather than the more confusing things. Anyhow, there seems to be enough progression in the "narrative" to warrant reading the whole thing from beginning to end. Make one complete navigation of the circle, as it were.

[megladon8]

The Amazon Kindle seems way too expensive for what it does.

[Benny Profane]

Now reading Panic: The Story of Modern Financial Insanity by Michael Lewis (Moneyball) though in reality it's a compilation of articles, and he's the editor. Thank science for the glossary in the back. I swear the vernacular of the financial sector is deliberately designed to keep outsiders mystified.

[Qrazy]

Regarding the Beckett quote, it seems more like traditional stream of consciousness writing than the passage from Ulysses. The reason I always think of that passage is that it's basically a complete sentence—but a really complicated one (with the commas removed). Though I guess its use of "who" screws things up. ("The man's acumen is poor who disagrees with this" is incorrect, right?)

You ought to read Beckett's novel Watt or his trilogy (particularly Molloy) if you haven't yet. It's an interesting counter-point to Joyce. I've heard Beckett once described as the inverse of Joyce because while Joyce crams as much as possible into his work (particularly his last two novels), Beckett tries to remove as much possible. It's an interesting feat since ultimately the work remains quite wordy, it's just stripped bare in another sense.

[Winston*]

Read Less than Zero. Eh.

It was short though, so it's got that going for it. Helps me in my 52 novel quest which I failed miserably at last year, on 6 so far.

[monolith94]

You guys were talking about difficult writing?

A CARAFE, THAT IS A BLIND GLASS.

A kind in glass and a cousin, a spectacle and nothing strange a single hurt color and an arrangement in a system to pointing. All this and not ordinary, not unordered in not resembling. The difference is spreading.

GLAZED GLITTER.

Nickel, what is nickel, it is originally rid of a cover.

The change in that is that red weakens an hour. The change has come. There is no search. But there is, there is that hope and that interpretation and sometime, surely any is unwelcome, sometime there is breath and there will be a sinecure and charming very charming is that clean and cleansing. Certainly glittering is handsome and convincing.

There is no gratitude in mercy and in medicine. There can be breakages in Japanese. That is no programme. That is no color chosen. It was chosen yesterday, that showed spitting and perhaps washing and polishing. It certainly showed no obligation and perhaps if borrowing is not natural there is some use in giving.

A SUBSTANCE IN A CUSHION.

[Milky Joe]

Gertrude Stein isn't difficult. She's just fucking awesome.

[thefourthwall]

Finished reading The Green Ray by Jules Verne. I'm curious to see Rohmer's film again, so I can more knowledgeably listen to the conversation about the book (though I find it hard to imagine finding four random people who've read it at a seaside village). It was okay--a quick enough read (though it took me a month at 2-4 pages a day), rather old timey in its straight forward adventure narrative. Helena, the protagonist, had lots of agency until the end unfortunately. All of the minor/side characters were quirky and fun, like the bachelor brothers who share sentences and a snuff box.

[EyesWideOpen]

The Amazon Kindle seems way too expensive for what it does.

"I'm actually really interested in getting a Kindle 2 after reading the features.

Slim: Just over 1/3 of an inch, as thin as most magazines

Lightweight: At 10.2 ounces, lighter than a typical paperback

Wireless: 3G wireless lets you download books right from your Kindle, anytime, anywhere; no monthly fees, service plans, or hunting for Wi-Fi hotspots

Books in Under 60 Seconds: Get books delivered in less than 60 seconds; no PC required

Improved Display: Reads like real paper; now boasts 16 shades of gray for clear text and even crisper images

Longer Battery Life: 25% longer battery life; read for days without recharging

More Storage: Take your library with you; holds over 1,500 books

Faster Page Turns: 20% faster page turns

Read-to-Me: With the new Text-to-Speech feature, Kindle can read every book, blog, magazine, and newspaper out loud to you

Large Selection: Over 230,000 books plus U.S. and international newspapers, magazines, and blogs available

Low Book Prices: New York Times Best Sellers and New Releases $9.99, unless marked otherwise "

The text to speech feature is the one i'm most interested in. Being able to listen to books while i'm driving (my job) would be well worth the price.

[Winston*]

The text to speech feature is the one i'm most interested in. Being able to listen to books while i'm driving (my job) would be well worth the price.
So it would be reading it out in robot voice? That would be terrible IMO.

Couldn't you just download audiobooks for that purpose?

[EyesWideOpen]

So it would be reading it out in robot voice? That would be terrible IMO.

Couldn't you just download audiobooks for that purpose?

It says you can change between male and female voices so i'm not sure how it's gonna sound. The kindle 2 doesn't come out for another week or so.

Audiobooks generally cost 3-4 times more then an actual book so if the quality is decent it could work out.

[SirNewt]

If I had to buy one right now I think I'd still go with the Sony reader.

[Duncan]

I have read Infinite Jest. This is post is mostly just to brag about that fact. That book is a god damn marathon.

[Benny Profane]

I finished Panic.

Bottom line: financial analysis is practically useless when the major players in the marketplace act like bedwetting six year old girls with their hair on fire. Confidence, momentum, fear, greed: these are the driving forces in the marketplace, and whichever way the wind is blowing becomes self-fulfilling. Boom or bust, it's a herd mentality, and retail investors are at the mercy of the herd. This book finger-points both borrowers and lenders, central governments and private investors, everyone who played a role in four key financial follies since 1987. If I had one wish, it would be that there would be more explanation from Lewis before or after each (important) article to help guide the reader. I'd read a grocery list written by him. Overall though, I learned a good deal.

[Benny Profane]

Started reading Wait Until Spring, Bandini by John Fante.

Also reading The Complete Joy of Homebrewing by Charlie Papazian, since I'm going to start brewing my own beer soon. Bought the gear and everything.

[Duncan]

OK, Infinite Jest. I got the feeling just from the title that this could be some massive meta-joke, and it turns out that, among many other things, it is. The first chapter is set after the rest of the book and tells of certain events that, one expects, are going to play out over the course of the novel. As you might have guessed, they don't. It kind of goes nowhere, is endlessly repetetive, and, quite literally, you never get to the end of the book because once you run out of narrative there are like 150 pages of end notes and even though you've already read them it seems like they should be filled with something else and that you should at some point be able to turn to the back cover. But you can't.

This is, naturally, all part of Wallace's point. Not only do we have to be aware that we are reading a book, but we have to be aware that we are making a choice to read a book. Therefore, it has to be frustrating at times and we have to be confronted with the choice of just letting it go. Wallace keeps returning to the films of James Incandenza (the suicidal patriarch of the central family) and how they often fuck with the audience by staying on a shot way beyond any tolerable time limit. Wallace is doing the same thing. He's dragging jokes out, he dropping hints at plot developments that never happen, he's coming up with every horrific AA or NA story he can find (and they're pretty much the same, which makes the whole I.D.'ing thing pretty easy, I would think). At one point in the book there's a fairly explicit reference to the forced viddying scene in A Clockwork Orange and how horrifying that is. It's almost like he's consistently daring us to stop reading.

I don't know if I've ever been so ambivalent about a book. Wallace was obviously a talented guy. He was also very obviously depressed, based on the content of this book. A some points it's extremely moving (most of the Mario bits, for example). Sometimes you just want him to shut up, since you got the point the first 12 times he said it. So...I don't know what to say. A hard book for me to recommend, I guess, but I can see why some people find worlds in it.

[Mysterious Dude]

There were parts of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle that I liked a lot, but the last few chapters almost ruined it for me. I'm okay with the combination of fiction and journalism, and the exposé of the struggles of the proletariat, but the political rants are just too much. It was like having to listen to the lectures in Godard's Tout va bien all over again. I don't feel the main character's story really had much closure.

[lovejuice]

There were parts of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle that I liked a lot, but the last few chapters almost ruined it for me. I'm okay with the combination of fiction and journalism, and the exposé of the struggles of the proletariat, but the political rants are just too much. It was like having to listen to the lectures in Godard's Tout va bien all over again. I don't feel the main character's story really had much closure.
i was half way through it, but had to stop. his prose is immense, and i like it in some parts, but not enough for me to go on in one take. you think i should continuous?

[SirNewt]

Just finished, 'The Death of Ivan Illyach'. I liked it but in the colorful fantasy battle that plays in my mind "DOSTOEVSKY VS. TOLSTOY" D is looking like champ material.

[Marley]

So, I finally got around to finishing The Road today, which left me fairly perplexed and not necessarily in a good way. Talk about bleak. While I can't deny McCarthy's beautiful writing style, the story felt a little too slight and did become fairly repetitive at times. Nevertheless, it was a very engrossing read and I really fell in love with the author's prose. I'm still not sure what to make of this book though. :frustrated:

[Marley]

Fellow match-cutters, I am in dire need of help with an assignment for school. I have to write an essay on a novel or series of short stories (by the same author) that can be analyzed through a Freudian psychoanalytic framework. So, I basically need some recommendations of fictional literary works that have some kind of unconscious profundity or deal with different Freudian concepts such as dreams, male/female relationships, the uncanny, childhood, sexuality, neurosis, death, etc. The professor is giving us the freedom to write whatever we want concerning this subject so there is nothing really specific that he wants us to focus on when applying the psychoanalytic concepts to the text. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Kurosawa Fan]

The Zero by Jess Walter. I'm just going to keep recommending it until more of you read it. Seriously though, it fits with dreams and death quite well.

[Marley]

The Zero by Jess Walter. I'm just going to keep recommending it until more of you read it. Seriously though, it fits with dreams and death quite well.

Thanks KF, this sounds like it fits the criteria quite well. Judging by the plot description there does seem to be some kind of underlying mental illness or neurosis to the protagonist, which could be useful as well. I'll pick it up from the library on Monday.

Anyone else got any fictional works to recommend pertaining to the aforementioned Freudian psychoanalytic qualities? The oedipus complex and narcissism are also big issues concerning Freud that I forgot to mention.

[thefourthwall]

I'm not sure what level you're writing at (which would affect how new and inovative these text to psychoanalytic readings need to be) ...but both The Brothers Karamozov (Dostoevsky) and (D. H. Lawrence) have been read with the three brothers and the three women as each representing one portion of conscious: id, ego, superego.

EDIT: How much time do you have for this assignment? These are pretty long books...

[D_Davis]

Thanks KF, this sounds like it fits the criteria quite well. Judging by the plot description there does seem to be some kind of underlying mental illness or neurosis to the protagonist, which could be useful as well. I'll pick it up from the library on Monday.


You might want to check out VALIS by Philip K. Dick.

Wiki-



While living in Santa Barbara, Philip Dick is experiencing a philosophical crisis brought about by a combination of amphetamine use, compulsively helping the wrong people and a deep sense that there is something very wrong with the world. After starting with a fairly typical section dealing with his problems with other people, women in particular, strange events begin to happen around him. He begins to see two realities overlaid on one another. One being the world as he knows it, the other a man named Thomas living in the Levant and speaking Koine Greek circa 60AD. Shortly after, he is hit in the head with a beam of pink light (he later said that if he had ever seen a laser, that's what he would have called it) that 'beamed' information to him. The pink light tells him that his son has a herniated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernia) intestine and will die within weeks if it is not treated. Even more shocking, after convincing the doctors to look at his son, it turns out that the laser was right.
During this time he begins writing his 'tractate' which is a commonplace book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonplace_book) of amalgamated philosophies and concepts Dick had compiled in an attempt to explain this experience.

[EvilShoe]

The Rabbit Amstrong series is horrifying so far.

Finished Rabbit Redux, 50 pages into Rabbit is Rich. So far the first book is my favorite, but the second wasn't an embarrasment.
With Rabbit having aged ten years, his future seems even more bleak.

I'm especially interested to find out how things evolve with
Nelson.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Heh. If you're working at the university level (which is what I'm assuming, but I don't really know), you should be able to shoehorn psychoanalysis in any text ever made. Lord knows some profs do.

[Marley]

I'm not sure what level you're writing at (which would affect how new and inovative these text to psychoanalytic readings need to be) ...but both The Brothers Karamozov (Dostoevsky) and (D. H. Lawrence) have been read with the three brothers and the three women as each representing one portion of conscious: id, ego, superego.

EDIT: How much time do you have for this assignment? These are pretty long books...

Yes, it is for a university course and the assignment is due at the end of March. I'll add Brothers Karamozov to teh list although having not reading anything by big D, it would certainly be a challenge to finish it in time and comprehend the text thoroughly. What novel by DH Lawrence are you referring to?


Heh. If you're working at the university level (which is what I'm assuming, but I don't really know), you should be able to shoehorn psychoanalysis in any text ever made. Lord knows some profs do.

This is true. However, considering that the paper has to be 20 pages long it might be a little less stressful for me to write if the text already contains a narrative rooted in some kind of psychoanalytic schema.

[Lucky]

It's probably because I just recently finished the book, but the first idea I had was Narcissus and Goldmund. You've got two characters which embody the masculine/feminine aspect of thought. Writing a psychological profile on Goldmund would be a subject with a lot of material to pull from.

Also, I'm curious to hear what Freud said about narcissism if you have a second.

[Melville]

Yes, it is for a university course and the assignment is due at the end of March. I'll add Brothers Karamozov to teh list although having not reading anything by big D, it would certainly be a challenge to finish it in time and comprehend the text thoroughly. What novel by DH Lawrence are you referring to?
I'm not sure which Lawrence book she was referring to, but Sons and Lovers is probably the single most famous literary exploration of the Oedipus complex. Though the fact that it's so famous for that might make it kind of boring to write about.

EDIT: Actually, the three women in Sons and Lovers, and the protagonist's relationship with each of them, could be interpreted in terms of the id, ego, and superego. So you could talk about Oedipus, the ego, and modernism all at once!

Oh, and the plot is all about sexuality, childhood, and male-female relationships. I'm sure all that other stuff you mentioned is in there too.

[Milky Joe]

for fans of David Foster Wallace:

"Wiggle Room" (http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/features/2009/03/09/090309fi_fiction_wallace)
Long essay called "The Unfinished" about his Unfinished Novel, The Pale King (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/09/090309fa_fact_max)
Two Pages from the Manuscript of said novel (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2009/03/david-foster-wallace.html)

Little, Brown intends to publish the unfinished manuscript some time next year.

[Benny Profane]

Now reading The Savage Detectives by Roberto Bolano. Very rare for me to go right back to an author but I was so blown away by 2666 that I couldn't wait. First 40 pages are pretty awesome.

[Marley]

You might want to check out VALIS by Philip K. Dick.

This sounds amazing and I'll definitely be picking it up tomorrow! Thanks Daniel. :pritch:



It's probably because I just recently finished the book, but the first idea I had was Narcissus and Goldmund. You've got two characters which embody the masculine/feminine aspect of thought. Writing a psychological profile on Goldmund would be a subject with a lot of material to pull from.

Also, I'm curious to hear what Freud said about narcissism if you have a second.

This one sounds very intriguing and seems like it fits the bill. Consider it on the list!

Freud wrote a long essay on the subject of narcissism that's a little too long and complex for me to explain it fully here but in a nutshell, he talks a lot about the ego, the libido and the process of cathexis. According to him, one's own narcissism is determined by the level of ego-libido retracting back into the ego instead of the external object (i.e. sexual object). The essay is also very misogynistic and he views women as being inherently narcissistic where they only love to be loved in order to satisfy their narcissistic tendencies. Considering this is Freud, no essay would be complete without some mention of childhood or castration in which he refers back to as a kind of "primitive narcissism" where the child cares only about self-preservation. I hope this was helpful in some way.


I'm not sure which Lawrence book she was referring to, but Sons and Lovers is probably the single most famous literary exploration of the Oedipus complex. Though the fact that it's so famous for that might make it kind of boring to write about.

EDIT: Actually, the three women in Sons and Lovers, and the protagonist's relationship with each of them, could be interpreted in terms of the id, ego, and superego. So you could talk about Oedipus, the ego, and modernism all at once!

Oh, and the plot is all about sexuality, childhood, and male-female relationships. I'm sure all that other stuff you mentioned is in there too.

This is very helpful Melville. Thanks a lot for the recommendation and contextualizing its Freudian themes.

[D_Davis]

This sounds amazing and I'll definitely be picking it up tomorrow! Thanks Daniel. :pritch:


Cool, man. I hope you dig it. And remember, most of what happens to Phil (aka Horselover Fat) in this book is "true" in that PKD believed that this stuff was actually happening to him.

It is incredibly thought provoking, and a wonderfully written pseudo-autobiography mixed with some great SF.

[ledfloyd]

OK, Infinite Jest. I got the feeling just from the title that this could be some massive meta-joke, and it turns out that, among many other things, it is. The first chapter is set after the rest of the book and tells of certain events that, one expects, are going to play out over the course of the novel. As you might have guessed, they don't. It kind of goes nowhere, is endlessly repetetive, and, quite literally, you never get to the end of the book because once you run out of narrative there are like 150 pages of end notes and even though you've already read them it seems like they should be filled with something else and that you should at some point be able to turn to the back cover. But you can't.

This is, naturally, all part of Wallace's point. Not only do we have to be aware that we are reading a book, but we have to be aware that we are making a choice to read a book. Therefore, it has to be frustrating at times and we have to be confronted with the choice of just letting it go. Wallace keeps returning to the films of James Incandenza (the suicidal patriarch of the central family) and how they often fuck with the audience by staying on a shot way beyond any tolerable time limit. Wallace is doing the same thing. He's dragging jokes out, he dropping hints at plot developments that never happen, he's coming up with every horrific AA or NA story he can find (and they're pretty much the same, which makes the whole I.D.'ing thing pretty easy, I would think). At one point in the book there's a fairly explicit reference to the forced viddying scene in A Clockwork Orange and how horrifying that is. It's almost like he's consistently daring us to stop reading.

I don't know if I've ever been so ambivalent about a book. Wallace was obviously a talented guy. He was also very obviously depressed, based on the content of this book. A some points it's extremely moving (most of the Mario bits, for example). Sometimes you just want him to shut up, since you got the point the first 12 times he said it. So...I don't know what to say. A hard book for me to recommend, I guess, but I can see why some people find worlds in it.
when i finished the book my first thought was "really?" this was two or so years ago. i remember thinking parts of it were unbelievably great. parts seemed unnecessary, which, after all, was the point. now, with a few years between me and the month i spent reading that book, i appreciate it alot more. it frequently comes to mind when i'm thinking of things, possibly more frequently than anything else i've read. it's endlessly funny and depressing. and lately i've, gasp, found myself wanting to go back to it.


i haven't read much at all this year. i reread gatsby, and read revolutionary road (which is 100 times better than the film).

i tried reading catch-22, and the savage detectives. i was loving the latter at first but got lost in the middle. mainly cause i wasn't reading that often and i kept forgetting where i was at. i had the same problem with 22.

right now i'm reading the raw shark texts and enjoying it quite a bit, though it certainly has a few weaknesses so far.

i'm trying to get back into reading this month. maybe i'll try 22 and savage detectives again. if i were reading them nightly i'm sure i wouldn't have had a problem. i also have the moviegoer and a few other books lying around i haven't read.

a friend who i generally trust recommended an author named jesse ball to me. have any of you read him? his stuff seems interesting.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Well, I suck at reading and posting in this thread lately. My pace has been sluggish due to an illness that killed my energy for two plus weeks and my nonsensical desire to see as many Oscar films as possible before the ceremony. However, both of those are out of the way and I've gone back to reading nearly every night.

I finished Tom Sawyer, which was very good, but a tad disappointing. I loved Tom and Huck. Twain developed two characters who personify the curiosity and mischief and invincibility of youth. They were amazing, and I'm more excited to read Huck Finn than ever. That said, I did feel that too much of the book felt episodic. It didn't feel like a cohesive novel for the majority, and that hurt my level of interest. It felt like a collection of short stories until the last 40-50 pages, and while it was still fun to read, it made too much of the novel feel inconsequential. Still, it ended perfectly, and despite its flaws was a lot of fun.

I'm now about halfway through Election by Tom Perrotta, which is the basis for the 1999 film, and it's radically different in some respects. So far that has been a blessing. It doesn't feel like I'm reading a novel for the second time. It's a quality read with much less humor and more bite. The characters are far less exaggerated. So far it hasn't depreciated my love of the film, which is one I list in my top 100. I'm enjoying the hell out of it, and hate putting it down.

[Mara]

I'm trying to read Dreams from my Father by Barack Obama, and it's much more distressing than I expected. I expected poignant, but instead it's kind of heartbreaking. Plus, it makes me feel very guilty for not e-mailing my father in the last six months.

And I remember liking the book of Election as much as I liked the film, except for the character of Tracy Flick. I liked how in the film she had more naivete mixed in with her machinations.

[Kurosawa Fan]

And I remember liking the book of Election as much as I liked the film, except for the character of Tracy Flick. I liked how in the film she had more naivete mixed in with her machinations.

In the film I found her naivete a total ruse. Those glimpses of the monster she could become erased any naivete her character had going for her. And I like that she's more attractive in the book, and uses her sexuality as a weapon. I thought she was too frumpy in the movie to honestly win an election against the star quarterback (when you take into consideration her unpleasant attitude towards almost everyone).

[Mara]

In the film I found her naivete a total ruse. Those glimpses of the monster she could become erased any naivete her character had going for her. And I like that she's more attractive in the book, and uses her sexuality as a weapon.

But that tension between the innocent exterior and the calculating interior is what makes the character so interesting to me.

There's no tension like that in the book. For instance, everyone kind of knows about her affair with the teacher. I love that in the film, she manages to preserve her virginal facade. It reflects the entire appearance-over-substance theme of the film.

[Kurosawa Fan]

But that tension between the innocent exterior and the calculating interior is what makes the character so interesting to me.

There's no tension like that in the book. For instance, everyone kind of knows about her affair with the teacher. I love that in the film, she manages to preserve her virginal facade. It reflects the entire appearance-over-substance theme of the film.

I guess I didn't really buy into it in the film. I don't buy that a high school, as gossipy and catty as everyone can be, wouldn't know about that affair. It's one of the problems I had with the film. As much as I love it, the characters are a bit broad. But it works for the sake of the comedy, so it's forgivable to me.

[Kurosawa Fan]

The Tracy in the novel is more believable to me. She reminds me of several girls I went to school with, whereas the Tracy in the novel seems fictitious. I guess that's my point.

[Raiders]

Tracy Flick in the film is exactly like a girl I went to high school with. She was on the student government, too.

She was the anti-jock, so to speak, which was as perferable to as many people as was the jocks who ran against her. I think that is probably part of why Payne's film has always been so riotous to me. That and it is wonderfully crafted satire.

[Yxklyx]

Recently read A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again. Loved it immensely! Now reading Robertson Davies' The Rebel Angels for the third time over many years. Considering checking out Infinite Jest afterwards.

[Milky Joe]

Recently read A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again. Loved it immensely! ... Considering checking out Infinite Jest afterwards.

yay! I heartily recommend Consider the Lobster if you want more easily-digestible DFW.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Finished Election already. I thoroughly enjoyed it. The book is different enough in tone from the movie that it won't affect my love for the latter. The book was definitely more social commentary than satire, and was much more poignant. I loved the last chapter of the book. Gave a completely different view of Tracy Flick.

I'm moving on to The Alchemist. For some reason, I don't think I'm going to like it. We'll see. I'm going to read a few shorter novels to make up for the lost time thus far this year. I mean, three completed novels by the first week of March is embarrassing.

[jamaul]

So I was at Borders yesterday holding 2666 in my hands. I have such a weird compulsion to buy this and I don't know why. I had the same inexplicable urge with Gravity's Rainbow and Ulysses, and those are my favorite novels. Not saying 2666 would compare, but at the very least, how does it rank with 21st Century literature thusfar? I'm reading Don Quixote and I have aspirations to get through Karamazov and Moby Dick before the end of the year, Against the Day and Mason & Dixon before Inherent Vice comes out. Should I make room for Bolano's posthumous novel?

[Kurosawa Fan]

So I was at Borders yesterday holding 2666 in my hands. I have such a weird compulsion to buy this and I don't know why. I had the same inexplicable urge with Gravity's Rainbow and Ulysses, and those are my favorite novels. Not saying 2666 would compare, but at the very least, how does it rank with 21st Century literature thusfar? I'm reading Don Quixote and I have aspirations to get through Karamazov and Moby Dick before the end of the year, Against the Day and Mason & Dixon before Inherent Vice comes out. Should I make room for Bolano's posthumous novel?

Everyone who has read it on this site has raved about it. So your answer is going to be a resounding "yes".

[ledfloyd]

The Raw Shark Texts is interesting. It's thematically rich. Almost everything has at least two interpretations. I'm still not entirely sure what I think of it. There seem to be some logical gaps in the sci-fi aspects and the prose is rarely exceptional. But the ideas and the double nature of the book intrigue me. And there were a few moments in the Eric/Scout relationship I thought were absolutely beautiful.

[ledfloyd]

I started reading Gravity's Rainbow, again. I'm going to finish it this time! And read the rest of his damn books.

[Benny Profane]

So I was at Borders yesterday holding 2666 in my hands. I have such a weird compulsion to buy this and I don't know why. I had the same inexplicable urge with Gravity's Rainbow and Ulysses, and those are my favorite novels. Not saying 2666 would compare, but at the very least, how does it rank with 21st Century literature thusfar? I'm reading Don Quixote and I have aspirations to get through Karamazov and Moby Dick before the end of the year, Against the Day and Mason & Dixon before Inherent Vice comes out. Should I make room for Bolano's posthumous novel?

It's an all-timer for me. I don't use that term lightly.

[thefourthwall]

Yes, it is for a university course and the assignment is due at the end of March. I'll add Brothers Karamozov to teh list although having not reading anything by big D, it would certainly be a challenge to finish it in time and comprehend the text thoroughly. What novel by DH Lawrence are you referring to?



I'm not sure which Lawrence book she was referring to, but Sons and Lovers is probably the single most famous literary exploration of the Oedipus complex.

Oops. Sorry that I a) didn't edit my post well and b) didn't come back to the thread in a timely fashion (I occasionally go through cycles of inattention to the internet/this forum that are not conducive to prolonged conversations). Again, sorry.

Women in Love was the book I was thinking about. I haven't read Sons and Lovers so I can't comment about that one. I assumed that it was university, but undergrad or grad? But it is true that pretty much any major modernist would probably work since one of the concerns of that literary movement is representing the inner thought life and that's what Freud's all about.



right now i'm reading the raw shark texts and enjoying it quite a bit, though it certainly has a few weaknesses so far.


I'm trying to read this for my book club and I'm really into whenever I read it but then once I set it down, I can not pick it up again for awhile. It's odd to me.

[Duncan]

I read The Sorrows of Young Werther. Nice to read a a concise, direct book. Can't say I really relate, but it was good.

Also read Plugged-In. It's a book published electronically by the WWF about the electrification of cars. Good summary of all the arguments for plug-in hybrids and eventually BEV's.

One thing I didn't know about was where hydrogen fuel would most likely come from if society inexplicably decides to go down that route. Turns out fertilizer plants already have to produce a lot of hydrogen to make NH3. They have found the most cost effective way to do this is not from electrolysis, but from the chemical decomposition of...oil. Hydrocarbons. Isn't that fucking crazy? We'd still be drilling for oil even if we switched to hydrogen cars.

I'm also about 3/4 of the way through Catch-22. Very funny. Liking it a lot.

[Duncan]

Plugged In can be found here (http://assets.panda.org/downloads/plugged_in_full_report___final .pdf), btw. It's a decent read.

[D_Davis]

Started reading Zen Keys, by Thich Nhat Hanh this morning on the bus. It was a transcendent experience.

Last night I went to hear a wonderful lecture given by a brilliant Jesuit on atheism and religion in the 21st century. He implored religious people to take seriously the talk of Dawkins, Hitchens et al. because, while they are not really saying anything new, they are asking tough questions in provocative ways that demand respect and deep thought. It is through men like them that faith really grows and evolves, and a faith that stays stagnate is a dying one.

So this morning I put down my normal genre fiction to turn to some theological works, and decided to pick up this book. It is a detailed overview of Zen Buddhism, and while reading it I was once again reminded at just how similar the world's righteous religions really are - each one is an attempt made by man to understand the creation and our places in it.

Nhat Hanh relates to the reader a story about a table, and how because the table exists, it proves that all non-table things also exist. I found this idea fascinating. The interconnectedness of all things is something I should take very seriously, and while on the surface it sounds like new age feel-goodery, it is actually deeply profound.

From my basic understanding thus far, I think one could say the Zen is to Buddhism what the Holy Spirit is to Christianity. According to the Bodhidharma, Zen is a "special transmission outside of the scriptures, not based on words or letters, a direct pointing to the heart of reality..." That is awesome, and this is a definition I can relate to because of my own faith.

Yes, there is even interconnectedness between different religions; that is a very cool thing.

So far, I've liked everything I've read by Nhat Hanh. He has a wonderful way with words.

[D_Davis]

I'm going to read a few shorter novels to make up for the lost time thus far this year. I mean, three completed novels by the first week of March is embarrassing.

You should check out some Muriel Spark - specifically two novellas: The Driver's Seat, and The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. They are short, brilliant, and wonderfully written. I can't imagine you not liking them.

[megladon8]

You should check out some Muriel Spark - specifically two novellas: The Driver's Seat, and The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. They are short, brilliant, and wonderfully written. I can't imagine you not liking them.


Looks like this would be a great purchase, then. (http://www.amazon.ca/Prime-Brodie-Slender-Drivers-Problem/dp/1400042062/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236358344&sr=8-1)

Just FYI for KF - and I might look for it in NYC, too :)

[Kurosawa Fan]

You should check out some Muriel Spark - specifically two novellas: The Driver's Seat, and The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. They are short, brilliant, and wonderfully written. I can't imagine you not liking them.

I put it on my Goodreads shelf so I don't forget about it, but right now I have so many books at home that I have yet to read, I need to focus my attentions there. And stop going to Barnes and Noble.

[lovejuice]

From my basic understanding thus far, I think one could say the Zen is to Buddhism what the Holy Spirit is to Christianity. According to the Bodhidharma, Zen is a "special transmission outside of the scriptures, not based on words or letters, a direct pointing to the heart of reality..." That is awesome, and this is a definition I can relate to because of my own faith.

thank for the recommendation. i'm always interested in from which book of Nhat Hanh i should start.

i don't want to play a buddhist in resident here, but allow me to say if you're really interested in the subject, i can provide you some list. and i don't mind a list of spiritual christianity reading either.

[D_Davis]

i don't want to play a buddhist in resident here, but allow me to say if you're really interested in the subject, i can provide you some list. and i don't mind a list of spiritual christianity reading either.

I'm always up for a good theological/spiritual recommendation, especially about Buddhism.

Have you ever read Thomas Merton? The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton is quite good. He was a Trappist monk, who turned to Christianity after years of atheism, and he also embraced Buddhism and eastern philosophy. His Asian Journal details the last years of his life spent in Tibet in dialog with the Dalai Lama - it is very good. Also, his book The Seven Storey Mountain, his autobiography, is a classic of Christian thought.

[D_Davis]

thank for the recommendation. i'm always interested in from which book of Nhat Hanh i should start.


I've also read Nhat Hanh's Living Buddha, Living Christ, which is excellent. Nhat has really reinforced my beliefs that there are far more similarities between the world's religions than there are differences.

[lovejuice]

I'm always up for a good theological/spiritual recommendation, especially about Buddhism.

Have you ever read Thomas Merton? The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton is quite good. He was a Trappist monk, who turned to Christianity after years of atheism, and he also embraced Buddhism and eastern philosophy. His Asian Journal details the last years of his life spent in Tibet in dialog with the Dalai Lama - it is very good. Also, his book The Seven Storey Mountain, his autobiography, is a classic of Christian thought.
thank! and allow me to repay you with the joy of living (http://www.amazon.com/Joy-Living-Unlocking-Science-Happiness/dp/0307346250). the book is very good, although a bit too practice-based. you might just want to revisit it from time to time and try those meditation exercises. i find the book very helpful during my hard time.

[D_Davis]

thank! and allow me to repay you with the joy of living (http://www.amazon.com/Joy-Living-Unlocking-Science-Happiness/dp/0307346250). the book is very good, although a bit too practice-based. you might just want to revisit it from time to time and try those meditation exercises. i find the book very helpful during my hard time.

Great - I'll look for it this weekend.

[D_Davis]

How about a book on Buddhist meditation?

[lovejuice]

How about a book on Buddhist meditation?
you want an actual meditation how-to? i have to say i'm very impartial toward the subject. (although i can always ask my friend.) there's something about meditation that really goes against my inner, and that's what i'm trying to work on.

[D_Davis]

you want an actual meditation how-to? i have to say i'm very impartial toward the subject. (although i can always ask my friend.) there's something about meditation that really goes against my inner, and that's what i'm trying to work on.

Yeah - a how to. Something practical, a "beginner's course" if you will.

I've been meaning to check out some classes offered at the Seattle Meditation center - they sound quite good. They offer non-denominational meditation that can be used in addition to one's own spiritual path, although the basis for the style they teach is some kind of Buddhist meditation. I believe it is called Insight Meditation.

[jamaul]

It's an all-timer for me. I don't use that term lightly.

Okay, that has me very interested. The cryptic title, the five sections linked by theme, the subject matter, the labyrinthine quality of it has had me picking it up constantly whenever I'm at Borders contemplating purchasing it. One thing I must ask -- would it be worth my while to put Don Quixote away for a while and throw down on 2666? Quixote is so beautifully written, yet it hasn't really enraptured me the way Gravity's Rainbow did. What say thee?

[lovejuice]

Yeah - a how to. Something practical, a "beginner's course" if you will.

I've been meaning to check out some classes offered at the Seattle Meditation center - they sound quite good. They offer non-denominational meditation that can be used in addition to one's own spiritual path, although the basis for the style they teach is some kind of Buddhist meditation. I believe it is called Insight Meditation.
i, on the other hand, want to check out sufi. a mixture of meditation and dance which seems to be more appropriate to my nature.

[D_Davis]

i, on the other hand, want to check out sufi. a mixture of meditation and dance which seems to be more appropriate to my nature.

That does sound interesting; something more active.

I usually use my music as a kind of meditation, especially when I am recording my ambient stuff. While making the music, I try to get lost in its qualities, and I let the moment of creativity completely envelope me. I would like to further this practice with a more structured study of meditation, because I think it will greatly enhance my creative endeavors.

[megladon8]

I've also read Nhat Hanh's Living Buddha, Living Christ, which is excellent. Nhat has really reinforced my beliefs that there are far more similarities between the world's religions than there are differences.


I definitely agree with this.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I was right about The Alchemist. :|

[lovejuice]

I was right about The Alchemist. :|
i think it's a charming book. although not quite sure if it's actually good. it might be a bit too "young adult," though. a decade from now, your son might like it.

[Kurosawa Fan]

i think it's a charming book. although not quite sure if it's actually good. it might be a bit too "young adult," though. a decade from now, your son might like it.

I finished it tonight, and it had a very nice ending. Still, that doesn't excuse the redundant 100 pages before it. I swear if I ever read the words "Language of the World" or "Personal Legend" again I'm going to throw the book across the room. Maybe something was lost in translation, but Coelho was awful. The story was nice, but his expository writing was unforgivable. He would repeat things endlessly, as if I'm suffering from short-term memory loss. Really, the first 100 pages were very annoying. I was ready to come on here and rant and rave about how much I hated it, but it wrapped up so nicely, especially the moment that the boy first sees the pyramids.

Still, written very poorly, too much Philosophy 101, and far too redundant to ever recommend to anyone, or to ever pick up another one of Coelho's novels.

[lovejuice]

will it make any difference to your opinion that coelho is more a spiritual writer than a novelist? like don miguel ruiz or eckhart tolle. the alchemist, i think, is a how-to-happiness book of sort. rather than creating an art, coelho aims to make sure his readers get something out of the book, and he's not above hammer the lessons into our head.

[Kurosawa Fan]

will it make any difference to your opinion that coelho is more a spiritual writer than a novelist? like don miguel ruiz or eckhart tolle. the alchemist, i think, is a how-to-happiness book of sort. rather than creating an art, coelho aims to make sure his readers get something out of the book, and he's not above hammer the lessons into our head.

In answer to your first question: No. It doesn't make a difference. I appreciate what Coelho was doing, but treating me like an idiot is inexusable. Instead of being inspired, I was totally turned off, and actually considered not finishing. In fact, had the book not been so short, I wouldn't have finished. He needs to learn to give his readers even a tiny bit of credit.