The Book Discussion Thread

[Ezee E]

It's the first I've read from him although I've seen Gilliams "Fear and Loathing" movie, which was...interesting. :)
The book is alright there too, but Hell's Angels is on my top tier of books period.

[Mysterious Dude]

I am one quarter of the way through War and Peace. I found Prince Andrei kind of boring for the first 300 pages, but he's starting to grow on me. I like the part where he met Napoleon. Actually the whole Battle of Austerlitz part was quite good. I think Andrei's imprisonment shall be interesting.

I'm surprised at how easy it's been to get through it so far. Maybe anything will seem easy after Absalom, Absalom. I am getting a little lost with all the names; I'm sure the characters were all introduced at some point earlier, but I'm damned if I remember. I was also a little confused during part one of book one; for a while I thought it was all one big party, but apparently it was several different parties or gatherings. They do like their parties.

[romantisaurusrex]

I'm one tenth of the way through War and Peace. I finally got to the war part. And then I realized that I hardly understand military jargon at all.

I'm reading it right now too, when I have 30 seconds to put together.

[Mara]

Hey, 'rex, I loaned The Other Sister Evelina for her trip. I'm curious to see her response.

[romantisaurusrex]

Hey, 'rex, I loaned The Other Sister Evelina for her trip. I'm curious to see her response.


Cool. Bet she won't like it as much as you do.... :)

So I'm volunteering with librivox, meaning I'll be recording some audiobooks for the public domain. I'm going to make you download my sections and listen to them.

[Mara]

So I'm volunteering with librivox, meaning I'll be recording some audiobooks for the public domain. I'm going to make you download my sections and listen to them.

I know some people who are librovox devotees. Interesting.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Mara, I know you especially would get a kick out of this:

-NKXNThJ610

[ledfloyd]

that was amazing.

[Mara]

I've seen that before, but it never ceases to amuse me.

It taps into a pet peeve of mine, however, which is my annoyance that poor Anne Brontë has been all but forgotten by history. She only wrote two books; her famous one (Agnes Grey) and her actually-good one (The Tenant of Wildfell Hall.)

"Tenant" was extremely controversial at the time it was written for the way it challenged conventions about marriage and sexuality, and Charlotte (who was always the most conventional sister) blocked its republication after Anne's death, and as such it is nearly forgotten. Instead, Anne is pretty much known for Agnes Grey, which is a fairly weak first effort, rather like Jane-Eyre-Lite.

It is my cause célèbre to try and raise awareness of The Tenant of Wildfell Hall. I actually also gave a copy of it to the other sister for her trip-- let's see if she reads it.

[Mara]

I found the quote Charlotte used to condemn the republication of "Tenant":


"Wildfell Hall it hardly appears to me desirable to preserve. The choice of subject in that work is a mistake, it was too little consonant with the character, tastes and ideas of the gentle, retiring inexperienced writer."

Bite me, Charlotte.

[Winston*]

Cool. Bet she won't like it as much as you do.... :)

So I'm volunteering with librivox, meaning I'll be recording some audiobooks for the public domain. I'm going to make you download my sections and listen to them.

Hey, I listened to all of Aphra Behn's Oroonoko through that site this week. Good stuff.

[Mara]

Maurice Sendak is still kicking. Awesome.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2011/08/maurice-sendak-201108

[romantisaurusrex]

This book is amazing:

http://globalcomment.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/nixonland.jpg

[romantisaurusrex]

I found the quote Charlotte used to condemn the republication of "Tenant":



Bite me, Charlotte.

Really? She would describe her little tie-the-kids-to-chair-legs sister "gentle"?

[Mara]

Finishing up My �ntonia by Willa Cather. It's my first Cather, although I know plenty of people who love her.

And it's a positive experience. She has a clean, elegiac style that is highly readable. Her nostalgia for the late-nineteenth-century homesteaders is almost overwhelming, and occasionally slips into that worship of times past that always feels false in its effulgence. She loves wide prairies and strong bodies and hard work.

They reminded me of Wilder's Little House books, which I loved as a child and still find a fascinating glimpse into prairie life, and also (oddly, maybe) Bless Me, Ultima which I read earlier this year and loved. They have a similar tone.

Has anyone read any Cather? Does she have other books I should check out?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Finished The Mill on the Floss yesterday. Very good book, but I have a few reservations. First, the good. Maggie is a brilliantly realized character. She has a depth and a consistency in personality and decision that is truly impressive. Eliot uses the story to tackle issues of female subordination in a patriarchy, but gives no easy answers. The men in the Tulliver family bring hardship and ruin to the family through their obdurate actions, yet when Mrs. Tulliver tries to intervene, she exacerbates the problem because she fails to see how her opinions will be interpreted and affect the men around her. Also, Aunt Glegg seems to have more say in her household, as she stands as the bridge between this era and our own, yet she is consumed with the same intolerance and stubbornness as the males in the story.

The book seems heavily influenced by The Communist Manifesto, which was published a few years prior to Eliot's novel. It is certainly very critical of the class system, the pacifying effect of religion on the poor, and materialism in general, with these themes creating the conflict in the lives of the Tullivers.

Where the book struggles is with the conclusion.

Eliot's first misstep is almost completely eliminating Tom from the final third of the novel, and then reasserting him in the narrative as an influence in Maggie's life after her reputation is in ruins. Eliot didn't do enough to maintain his role as the dominating, destructive force in Maggie's life, which severely lessened the impact of their final moments together. And as for those final moments, Eliot's use of imagery is a bit confusing. The water served as the impetus for redemption for Tom and Maggie, yet the image of the flood can't be separated from the Biblical flood, especially since the water appears as Maggie is on her knees, praying for guidance. It also comes immediately after we learn that the clergyman has dismissed her as his governess, and that Stephen is unwilling to go back to Lucy. She has been ostracized by the community, who have direct evidence from Stephen that Maggie wasn't in the wrong, yet they choose to believe baseless gossip to continue their poor treatment of her. The behavior of the town is deplorable, strengthening the connection to the Biblical flood, yet the flood in Eliot's novel accomplishes the opposite, destroying Maggie and Tom, while preserving the wicked in the town.

I've been thinking about that ending since completing the novel, and it feels unnecessarily bleak. Not sure I like it, but I'm willing to hear other interpretations that give the ending a meaning I might have missed.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Also, I've moved on to Nightwood by Djuna Barnes. Read the first section yesterday. Beautiful prose, but I know I'm missing a lot of the historical references. Also, very anti-semitic thus far, which is troubling.

[Mara]

I'd have to reread The Mill on the Floss to address your points, but I do remember it being a bit of a minor work by Eliot. I think her best is Middlemarch, which is one of the greatest novels I've ever read. If you want something with less of a time commitment, Adam Bede is good as well.

[Derek]

Has anyone read any Cather? Does she have other books I should check out?

I've read O Pioneers! which I remember being okay, but not as good as My Antonia. I don't really trust my memory since it's been a good dozen or so years since I've read either of them, plus it has a great rep and a sub-200 page count so it's worth looking into if you enjoyed Antonia.

[dreamdead]

Has anyone read any Cather? Does she have other books I should check out?

Beyond My Antonia, I've also read A Lost Lady, which, written in 1921, anticipates several of the new woman tropes and offers a female lead that Fitzgerald based Daisy Buchanan on. At times it can read too narrowly in black/white dichotomies, but I find it rather charming in how it reveals complications to those binaries, especially in its bitter protagonist.

Of the two, My Antonia is the better book, though. Still, I like how compact her writing is, and that factor always makes me want to read some of her other material (Death Comes for the Archbishop, The Professor's House)...

[romantisaurusrex]

Finished The Mill on the Floss yesterday. Very good book, but I have a few reservations. First, the good. Maggie is a brilliantly realized character. She has a depth and a consistency in personality and decision that is truly impressive. Eliot uses the story to tackle issues of female subordination in a patriarchy, but gives no easy answers. The men in the Tulliver family bring hardship and ruin to the family through their obdurate actions, yet when Mrs. Tulliver tries to intervene, she exacerbates the problem because she fails to see how her opinions will be interpreted and affect the men around her. Also, Aunt Glegg seems to have more say in her household, as she stands as the bridge between this era and our own, yet she is consumed with the same intolerance and stubbornness as the males in the story.

The book seems heavily influenced by The Communist Manifesto, which was published a few years prior to Eliot's novel. It is certainly very critical of the class system, the pacifying effect of religion on the poor, and materialism in general, with these themes creating the conflict in the lives of the Tullivers.

Where the book struggles is with the conclusion.

Eliot's first misstep is almost completely eliminating Tom from the final third of the novel, and then reasserting him in the narrative as an influence in Maggie's life after her reputation is in ruins. Eliot didn't do enough to maintain his role as the dominating, destructive force in Maggie's life, which severely lessened the impact of their final moments together. And as for those final moments, Eliot's use of imagery is a bit confusing. The water served as the impetus for redemption for Tom and Maggie, yet the image of the flood can't be separated from the Biblical flood, especially since the water appears as Maggie is on her knees, praying for guidance. It also comes immediately after we learn that the clergyman has dismissed her as his governess, and that Stephen is unwilling to go back to Lucy. She has been ostracized by the community, who have direct evidence from Stephen that Maggie wasn't in the wrong, yet they choose to believe baseless gossip to continue their poor treatment of her. The behavior of the town is deplorable, strengthening the connection to the Biblical flood, yet the flood in Eliot's novel accomplishes the opposite, destroying Maggie and Tom, while preserving the wicked in the town.

I've been thinking about that ending since completing the novel, and it feels unnecessarily bleak. Not sure I like it, but I'm willing to hear other interpretations that give the ending a meaning I might have missed.


I agree with you that the siblings didn't have to die in order for Evans to convey her message. I'm not sure I follow your Biblical flood theory. If anything, the book's message is one of anti-asceticism and adherence to impossible religious ideals. Evans saw her society's antedeluvian ideas of sin as so artificially constructed that they actually ruled out any possibility of happiness for Maggie. I love Maggie's struggle with her own culturally influenced personal goal of impossible perfection, but I know I over-identify with the character WAY TOO MUCH and am going to continue to do so:

I definitely think that leaving Tom out until the last bit was a conscious choice, and for me as a reader was a very effective choice. Though the sources of Maggie's self-depreciation and feelings of never being good enough or virtuous enough were many, they stemmed from her childhood and constantly being told so by Tom. It is important that she developed them on her own in adulthood before being drawn back to that base because if Tom was always around it would distract from the reader's ability to mentally convert a childhood Maggie into the complex and morally torn woman she becomes.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I agree with you that the siblings didn't have to die in order for Evans to convey her message. I'm not sure I follow your Biblical flood theory. If anything, the book's message is one of anti-asceticism and adherence to impossible religious ideals. Evans saw her society's antedeluvian ideas of sin as so artificially constructed that they actually ruled out any possibility of happiness for Maggie. I love Maggie's struggle with her own culturally influenced personal goal of impossible perfection, but I know I over-identify with the character WAY TOO MUCH and am going to continue to do so:

I definitely think that leaving Tom out until the last bit was a conscious choice, and for me as a reader was a very effective choice. Though the sources of Maggie's self-depreciation and feelings of never being good enough or virtuous enough were many, they stemmed from her childhood and constantly being told so by Tom. It is important that she developed them on her own in adulthood before being drawn back to that base because if Tom was always around it would distract from the reader's ability to mentally convert a childhood Maggie into the complex and morally torn woman she becomes.


Apologies if my writing is poor. I have to write so much for school that I'm always reluctant to do it for pleasure anymore, so I just kind of slap random thoughts together on the site and hope it makes sense.

Anyway, I agree with you completely that the novel supports anti-asceticism. I tried to tie that in to my view that it was influenced heavily by The Communist Manifesto, though I did a very lackluster job. It's made clear that abstaining from pleasure as a self-sacrifice for Maggie is foolhardy and damaging, and Eliot (or Evans) makes no mistake of connecting that sacrifice to Christianity by the book from which she gets the inspiration, as well as her mantra of "carrying the cross." However, there are certain events that, if written about in a novel, can't help but be inexorably connected to the Bible, and a flood is one of those events. An author can work to separate a flood in their work from the Biblical flood, to be sure, but Eliot doesn't do this. In fact, she seems to go to lengths to strengthen the connection. It happens not only after the clergyman has dismissed her as a governess, joining the ranks of those who have let gossip predominate truth in their ostracizing of Maggie, but the moment the water rushes in, Maggie is on her knees praying for guidance so that she may spend her life bringing joy to others (this after she is forgiven by Lucy). As the water rushes in, Maggie selflessly (though, who wouldn't?) runs upstairs to wake the rest of the family. In doing so, two boats are delivered directly to her and Bob. She is then rushed away in a strong current, though she doesn't die (though she thought at first she must have), instead having made her way to the river, and in turn, being able to once again brave danger to make sure that her mother and Tom are safe. She puts her life on the line and is able to navigate the waters and save Tom's life, only to have that act lead to both of their deaths. I'm sure I don't have to remind you, but the Biblical flood saves Noah from God's destruction of the wicked. Yet here, the wicked are presumably saved, while Tom and Maggie are destroyed.

If the water was simply supposed to stand as a purifying symbol for Tom and Maggie, why tie it so directly to Christianity? It seems that Maggie was in the presence of divine guidance. She was awake, contemplating her future after being dismissed by Dr. Kenn, when normally she would have been asleep. She is magically delivered a boat for escape (in fact, Bob speaks aloud his amazement that the boats have been delivered). She doesn't die even when the boat is wrenched from her control and she is tossed into the harder currents. She is able to guide her way through rough waters in the river and make it to the mill. She prays for guidance, acts selflessly throughout her perils, and for that she is drowned in the waters.

I'm not suggesting that Tom and Maggie were above the callous, judgmental nature of the town. Both had their faults, with Tom's seeming to supercede Maggie's. I'm just not sure I can reconcile the mixed message Eliot presents. I've been going over it, and perhaps I need to read some published interpretations, but it seems at odds with much of what Eliot presented throughout the body of the novel.

[Mara]

Okay, FINE, I'll read it again. Mom loved it so much-- I should give it another shot.

[Mara]

Meanwhile, I picked up The Sun Also Rises on disc. I'm not thrilled about it, since I've never been a huge Hemmingway fan, but I needed something for my drive to Pennsylvania tomorrow, and it was that or Janet Evanovich.

[D_Davis]

Meanwhile, I picked up The Sun Also Rises on disc. I'm not thrilled about it, since I've never been a huge Hemmingway fan, but I needed something for my drive to Pennsylvania tomorrow, and it was that or Janet Evanovich.

Man, talk about a lose-lose situation. Do you really still buy audio books on CD? Have you tried Audible.com and MP3s? With the amount of book-listening you do, I bet a subscription would pay off handsomely.

[Mara]

Man, talk about a lose-lose situation. Do you really still buy audio books on CD?

No, no, I get them from the library. My car is old enough that it's tricky to get an MP3 to play on it without extra hardware, and I'm cheap.

With enough forewarning, I can get really good audio books from the Pratt library system delivered. But since it was last minute, I had to grab what was on the shelf.

[Mara]

This got me thinking about the few books I do own on CD, including The Scarlet Letter. Ms. 'rex and I were on a long car trip and started listening to it. She's never read the book and got so into it that when we stopped that night at a hotel, she went out to my car to keep listening.

:lol:

Good times.

[Mara]

Meanwhile, I picked up The Sun Also Rises on disc.

I am not enjoying this. I tried to go into it with an open mind, to try and give Hemmingway a fair chance, but I don't even know if I'll finish it. I spent three hours on the road today, and maybe it was just that I was sad, but I was in no mood to deal with these rich, white, attractive, emotionally capricious, alcoholic people and their idiotic problems.

I understand that not all characters need to be likeable, but if they're not, they should at least be interesting.

Also: sheesh, Hemmingway has a problem with women. And Jewish people. And black people. And homosexuals.

[ledfloyd]

i have never listened to a book on tape but as i'm taking a solo road trip to south carolina this november for a wedding i'm thinking i might need to give it a shot. some how i don't think music alone will be sufficient to keep me occupied for 12 hours each way.

[Mara]

i have never listened to a book on tape but as i'm taking a solo road trip to south carolina this november for a wedding i'm thinking i might need to give it a shot. some how i don't think music alone will be sufficient to keep me occupied for 12 hours each way.

It took some getting used to, but I like them. I feel like I'm wasting my life during my commute, and it's a great way to get some reading done. Sometimes if I get distracted by things on the road I'll lose the thread, but I just punch back one track and it's fine.

[Mysterious Dude]

I found Hemingway a little too up front about his alcoholism. I mean, Faulkner was alcoholic too, but he didn't obsessively describe every kind of alcohol the characters were drinking every few pages.

[Mara]

At one point, someone asks why Brett and Jake don't get married. She says, "Well, we have our careers..."

I pounded on the steering wheel and shrieked aloud, "What careers? ALL YOU DO IS DRINK."

[Mara]

Which brings up a good point, Mr. Floyd-- beware of listening to frustrating books while driving. I nearly went off the road when I tried to listen to The Lovely Bones.

[Morris Schæffer]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3043/3015622516_10e44a24ce_o.jpg

Started reading this book. The movie was great.

[Ezee E]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3043/3015622516_10e44a24ce_o.jpg

Started reading this book. The movie was great.
I should check that out. The movie is freakin' great.

[Morris Schæffer]

I should check that out. The movie is freakin' great.

But what a life Saviano now has. Gotta wonder whether it was worth it and whether he'll ever be able to live a normal life.

Oh yeah, the Hell's Angels book was a great read. Especially the raping of Bass Lake, that was a great chapter.

[Hugh_Grant]

D_Davis,

You might be interested in this hour-long 1999 interview with Muriel Spark, from the CBC show Writers and Company.

http://www.cbc.ca/books/2011/08/from-the-writers-company-archives-muriel-spark.html

[D_Davis]

D_Davis,

You might be interested in this hour-long 1999 interview with Muriel Spark, from the CBC show Writers and Company.

http://www.cbc.ca/books/2011/08/from-the-writers-company-archives-muriel-spark.html

Excellent. Can't wait to listen.

[Irish]

That reminds me, DD -- did you see this?

http://io9.com/5828459/philip-k-dicks-bible-is-on-ebay-for-6500

I know you have a fetish for buying old, used books and this one looks right up your alley. :D

[D_Davis]

That reminds me, DD -- did you see this?

http://io9.com/5828459/philip-k-dicks-bible-is-on-ebay-for-6500

I know you have a fetish for buying old, used books and this one looks right up your alley. :D

That's awesome. Hopefully the buyer will be someone who will put it in the PKD collection to be enjoyed by many people, and eventually published. If I had the money, that's what I'd do.

:D

[ledfloyd]

Which brings up a good point, Mr. Floyd-- beware of listening to frustrating books while driving. I nearly went off the road when I tried to listen to The Lovely Bones.
:lol:

duly noted.

[Milky Joe]

That's awesome. Hopefully the buyer will be someone who will put it in the PKD collection to be enjoyed by many people, and eventually published. If I had the money, that's what I'd do.

:D

Whoaa. That's exactly what he should do. Digitize that MFer, make it freely available. Dick was probably the most important Biblical scholar of the 20th century.

[Duncan]

Finished DeLillo's Underworld the other day. Highly recommended. Leagues better than White Noise, I thought.

[Mysterious Dude]

Two fifths of the way through War and Peace. It seems helpful to set milestones like that. At the rate I'm going, I'll finish in approximately 41 days. September 20th, baby!

Right now, I'm in a peaceful (i.e. boring) stretch. Napoleon and the Tsar have (temporarily) made peace and the book's chief concern is with Prince Andrei's courtship with Natasha Rostov (Nikolai's sister). This part seems like something out of a much more ordinary 19th century book, with its focus on marriages (a subject I do not find very interesting). I don't think the book would pass the Bechdel test, since it seems like the women are only interested in men. Granted, in 1810 there wasn't much else for women to care about.

Nikolai Rostov was the last of the three main characters (Andrei, Pierre and Rostov) that I became aware of as a person, and not just a name who does things. I think it was the gambling scene and the one that followed it where he had to beg his father for money that finally made me aware of him.

Pierre's life is the most interesting so far, even though he hasn't been involved in the war yet. A duel for a woman he doesn't love, finding Jesus and joining the Freemasons. I'd like to see more of this guy.

[Benny Profane]

You get a lot more of Pierre. Hang in there. It's a great book.

[Mara]

Ooh, War and Peace should be my next audio book. I'm tired of these seven-disc baby books that make me go back to the library every week. I have to pay for parking, you know.

Hold... placed.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm officially moving on from Nightwood. It's just not working for me. The anti-semitism is disturbing, and too much of the historical content is going over my head. Perhaps I'll return to it another time, but with the fall semester coming up quickly, I want to squeeze a couple more books in before I lose all of my free time.

[Hugh_Grant]

A friend lent me Margaret Atwood's Alias Grace. I like what I've read so far. Like KF, a new semester is about to begin for me, so I'd like to get this one read as soon as I can.

I also have these two on hold at my local library:
The Thousand Autumns of Jacob De Zoet / David Mitchell.
The Hamilton Case / Michelle de Kretser.

The Mitchell is for my book club; the second one, which I had not heard of, was recommended to me by a colleague who knows I like my postcolonial literature.

[Mara]

I'm over The Sun Also Rises as well. The anti-semitism was also disturbing in this one.

[D_Davis]

I'm over The Sun Also Rises as well. The anti-semitism was also disturbing in this one.

I found the incredible dullness even more disturbing.

[Mara]

I found the incredible dullness even more disturbing.

And that.

[Qrazy]

I remember very little in The Sun Also Rises aside from the bullfighting.

[Derek]

I remember liking The Sun Also Rises, but perhaps I liked boredom and disliked Jews when I was younger. Hemingway is way overrated, though Old Man and the Sea is the shit.

[Qrazy]

I think A Farewell to Arms is quite a strong work.

---

I'm reading the second book in the Song of Ice and Fire series. It's an enjoyable read and I'll continue through the series but overall I can't say I'm really that impressed (with the writing or the character portraits or the world building). I definitely wouldn't say this is better than Lord of the Rings or Wheel of Time or a number of other fantasy series.

I can definitely see why HBO picked it up though. It fits right into the glove of copious amounts of sex and violence that that network prides itself upon.

I like Arya, Jon and Tyrion chapters the most. I'm sure the Daenerys and Bran storylines are building to something epic but I can't say I give two shits about them right now.

---

On a completely different note I wonder when they're going to do a Redwall film adaptation.

[D_Davis]

Yeah, LOTR and just about every other fantasy I've read or tried to read >>>>>>> ASOIAF

ASOIAF is historical soap opera. Ugh. I can't understand the love for those books. They're like fantasy for people who don't read a lot of fantasy.

But then again, I can't even get past the first 100 pages of the first book, so it's just not for me. No biggie.

I'll take Dunsany and McDermott any old day.

[D_Davis]

On a completely different note I wonder when they're going to do a Redwall film adaptation.

I'd like to see a good film series of these. I only read the first three, but I really liked them when I was in high school.

[Qrazy]

I'd like to see a good film series of these. I only read the first three, but I really liked them when I was in high school.

Yeah same, I haven't read them since so I can't say if they hold up or not but it was a pretty cool world. I read a bit deeper into the series and there were somewhat diminishing returns after a point but every once in a while it would return to form.

[Winston*]

There are some interesting passages in Robinson Crusoe, but omg they are few and far between.

[Ezee E]

There are some interesting passages in Robinson Crusoe, but omg they are few and far between.
This. Had to write a huge paper on it and high school, and oh, it was tough.

[Mara]

There are some interesting passages in Robinson Crusoe, but omg they are few and far between.

I read it because I liked Moll Flanders so much, but I thought it was pretty much poo.

[Derek]

They're like fantasy for people who don't read a lot of fantasy.

Maybe this is why I'm enjoying it. Only 150 pages in so can't say much yet, but I already like it more than The Hobbit (never read LOTR) which was alright, but not particularly exciting.

[D_Davis]

I tried twice, and couldn't get past the first 150 pages of ASOIAF. I was like, "OK, when does the fantasy start? This is just historical soap opera. Where's the "otherworldlyness?" Where is the "fantastique?" And then from what I've gathered reading about the books, the show, and what the fans really like, it's basically a bunch of violence, sex, and politics.

Just not my kind of fantasy.

:)

Ever read Lord Dunsany? Probably among the best writers ever in any genre. I'd be surprised if anyone really into English literature didn't like Dunsany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Plunkett,_18th_Baron_of _Dunsany

I'd encourage anyone who thinks that they don't like fantasy, or people who haven't explored pre-Tolkien fantasy, to explore the works of Lord Dunsany. He's poetic, elegant, imaginative, and even somewhat erotic, or at least highly romantic.

A lot of it is in public domain, so you can read it for free digitally. Also, a lot of the really, really great fantasy isn't epic - it's mainly told in short stories and novellas, or shorter novels, and not in long series. Epic fantasy is usually a huge turn-off for me.

If you're ever interested let me know, and I can put together a top 10 list of non-Tolkien fantasy for you to check out.

[Qrazy]

I tried twice, and couldn't get past the first 150 pages of ASOIAF. I was like, "OK, when does the fantasy start? This is just historical soap opera. Where's the "otherworldlyness?" Where is the "fantastique?" And then from what I've gathered reading about the books, the show, and what the fans really like, it's basically a bunch of violence, sex, and politics.

Well, to be fair to the author, Martin actually takes a fairly novel approach here. I'm only 2/3's through the second book but my sense is that the angle of the series is as follows. He's created a world where the fantastical is part of the history and lore of his characters, but the world has lost these things. It's basically just a medieval world and characters speak of the ancient history of the land as of myth. However, by the end of the first book and into the second and I can only assume beyond that given the trajectory of the work... the story is about the fantastical returning to this world and these characters coming to grips with that new reality. So the fantasy does come but very gradually. It's still coming gradually well into the second book. I expect it to kick into high gear in the third or so.

I would suggest you watch the series instead of reading the first book. It's fairly well acted and put together.

The politics I find somewhat interesting but Martin's basically just cribbing Daes Dae'mar from Jordan's Wheel of Time. Although Jordan's Game of Houses is much more complex and compelling to me personally.

I do find the sex and violence in Game of Thrones gratuitous though. The ugliness of the content could be expressed in a much less nasty manner and retain it's power in my opinion. All in all I think it's a pretty solid narrative but as I said earlier, the character portraits, world building and general calibur of the writing don't impress me much.

[Qrazy]

Maybe this is why I'm enjoying it. Only 150 pages in so can't say much yet, but I already like it more than The Hobbit (never read LOTR) which was alright, but not particularly exciting.

Lord of the Rings is substantially more interesting than The Hobbit. But Thrones is certainly more immediately gripping. Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time are about vast world building with moments of gripping narrative. ASOIAF is about narrative first and foremost.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I tried twice, and couldn't get past the first 150 pages of ASOIAF. I was like, "OK, when does the fantasy start? This is just historical soap opera. Where's the "otherworldlyness?" Where is the "fantastique?" And then from what I've gathered reading about the books, the show, and what the fans really like, it's basically a bunch of violence, sex, and politics.

Just not my kind of fantasy.

:)


It would help if you dropped your preconceived notions about what "fantasy" is and how the book should be written and instead just take it at face value as a novel.

This is why "genre," and an attachment to it, kind of drives me nuts.

[D_Davis]

I don't have any preconceived notions, I just didn't like it - not my thing.

I also don't think it is particularly well-written, imaginative, or inventive; from my experience with it, I thought it was poorly executed.

I know I'm the minority, and usually am with these kinds of things. It's all good.

It's OK to prefer things, and I prefer my fantasy to be more fantastical, otherworldly, poetic, and exotic. I didn't get any of that in what I read of Game of Thrones.

You know, something more Dunsanian.

No big deal! There are hundreds of other books for me to read and enjoy! I don't feel that I am really missing out on anything.

[D_Davis]

I understand what you are saying, though, about preconceived notions driving you nuts. However, I usually find that people avoid works of genre fiction because of these preconceived notions - they think fantasy, or SF is something that it is not, or their perceptions are based on things that are more juvenile, or poorly executed.

That's why I'm always trying to champion the works of authors like Lord Dunsany, Arthur Machen, Algernon Blackwood, Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, George MacDonald, and others so that people know that their is a wide world of non-Tolkien fantasy out there to explore; there is more to fantasy than dragons and elves, or kings and queens, and so on.

"It's a magical world...let's go exploring!"

[Qrazy]

So yeah I just finished Book 2 and there's a lot more fantastical elements now.

[Lucky]

I've added it to my "To Read" list which now consists of:

The Baroque Cycle – Neal Stephenson
Ragtime – E.L. Doctorow
Black Swan Green – David Mitchell
Light Years – James Salter

I'm pretty sure I can thank posters here for all of these recommendations that intrigued me.

Reading A Clash of Kings right now, only 200 pages in and I started grad school this week, so I have a feeling all I'll be reading this summer is Netter's Anatomy 5th Edition.

Reason #1001 why I love posting on Match-Cut: When your laptop crashes you don't lose your to-read list. I jumped Light Years by James Salter to the top of my queue and ordered it tonight. I'm still reading Clash of Kings, though.

[Qrazy]

A Song of Ice and Fire Plot Issues

If Pycelle was behind Arryn's death why did he give Ned the genealogy book and not some other tomb.

If Pryat Pree's goal was for the Undead to suck the life out of Dany why tell her how to get to the Undead room and why would it be so hard to get to that room if in that room you just get sucked dry anyway.

[amberlita]

Picked up World War Z and The Electric Kook-Aid Acid Test tonight. I know the former has been discussed here previously but I can't seem to recall what most Match-Cutters thought of it. I'm hoping the latter will fulfill my semi-annual need to live vicariously through other people's 1960s drug-fueled experiences.

[ledfloyd]

Picked up World War Z and The Electric Kook-Aid Acid Test tonight. I know the former has been discussed here previously but I can't seem to recall what most Match-Cutters thought of it. I'm hoping the latter will fulfill my semi-annual need to live vicariously through other people's 1960s drug-fueled experiences.
i read the wolfe book in high school when i was going through a kerouac/kesey/grateful dead et. al. phase. i remember enjoying it quite a bit, wolfe is a great writer.

[Mysterious Dude]

Half-way through War and Peace. Hurray! The war has finally started again; enough of that crap about marriage. Also, here's something I've learned about myself that I didn't know: I have dirty fingers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Isaac3159/war-and-peace-1.jpg

[Sycophant]

The Housekeeper and the Professor was wonderful. Yoko Ogawa is a revelation.

Mari Akasaka's Vibrator was a breathtaking and devastating stream-of-consciousness story, powerful, upsetting, and moving. Its adaptation by Ryuichi Hiroki is very worthy of it.

[Mara]

My new commuting book is The Return of the Native by Thomas Hardy. I have enjoyed some Hardy books and hated others, so I'm curious how I'll respond to this one.

[Mara]

Time's list of the 100 greatest non-fiction books is worth a look:

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2088856_2088860,00.htm l

Considering that I rarely read non-fiction, I was surprised by how many of these I had read-- a dozen... maybe twenty. I made mental notes of others I want to check out.

[Dukefrukem]

Anyone here read Tipping Point? Finished it over the weekend. Great read.

[Dukefrukem]

Time's list of the 100 greatest non-fiction books is worth a look:

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2088856_2088860,00.htm l

Considering that I rarely read non-fiction, I was surprised by how many of these I had read-- a dozen... maybe twenty. I made mental notes of others I want to check out.

I've read a total of 1. And it's probably the shortest book on that list.

[Mara]

I've read a total of 1. And it's probably the shortest book on that list.

Hmm. The Elements of Style? That's a very thin book. And a good one.

[Lucky]

Hmm. The Elements of Style? That's a very thin book. And a good one.

Even though he references it multiple times, I actually enjoyed Stephen King's On Writing more. Glad to see that made the list as well.

In Cold Blood and The Gnostic Gospels were also very good reads that I would recommend. And that's all I have to offer. Haven't done much quality nonfiction reading apparently. Although I'm surprised 48 Laws of Power didn't make the list -- that was an entertaining read.

[Mara]

The Gnostic Gospels

That woman wrote a book called Adam, Eve and the Serpent that completely changed the way I read Genesis. It's a fascinating book.

[Lucky]

That woman wrote a book called Adam, Eve and the Serpent that completely changed the way I read Genesis. It's a fascinating book.

I believe my friend has told me about this book. Do they talk about sexism and offer an interpretation where the fall from Eden was actually Adam's fault?

[Mara]

I believe my friend has told me about this book. Do they talk about sexism and offer an interpretation where the fall from Eden was actually Adam's fault?

...sort of. It's not really interpretative, instead she charts how, historically, believers have viewed and changed their views on the fall, from the Talmud to St. Augustine to modern day. It's fascinating.

[Lucky]

...sort of. It's not really interpretative, instead she charts how, historically, believers have viewed and changed their views on the fall, from the Talmud to St. Augustine to modern day. It's fascinating.

Yes, that sounds familiar. Said friend was also the one who bought me The Gnostic Gospels, so I'm sure it's the same book. I'll have to add it to my list, thanks for reminding me it exists.

[Mara]

I'm near done with The Return of the Native but I returned it to the library because War and Peace finally came in. 26 discs... for the first half. Oof.

I've only just started it, but so far the writing feels accessible and interesting,a and I like the voice actor (which makes a huge difference when I'm listening to a book.)

As for The Return of the Native, I think I'm coming around to being quite positive about it. The first third of the book dragged a little bit, but now that the characters are drawn up and doing things, I'm intrigued. Eustacia is a fascinating character. Remember when I tried to read The Sun Also Rises and I decided that if a character is unlikeable, they have to compensate by being interesting? Eustacia proves the rule. What a horrible woman-- but I'm hooked on seeing what awful thing she does next.

[Hugh_Grant]

Time's list of the 100 greatest non-fiction books is worth a look:

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2088856_2088860,00.htm l

Considering that I rarely read non-fiction, I was surprised by how many of these I had read-- a dozen... maybe twenty. I made mental notes of others I want to check out.

Our frosh comp/rhet course, the one I teach most often, is based on non-fiction text, so I've read a lot of excerpts from this list, and most of the authors, but not many whole books. The Mitford book is one I read because I loved the selection we had in an old comp/rhet anthology.

Syntactic Structures? The Structure of Scientific Revolutions *shudder* (Grad school flashbacks)

[Mara]

As for The Return of the Native, I think I'm coming around to being quite positive about it. The first third of the book dragged a little bit, but now that the characters are drawn up and doing things, I'm intrigued. Eustacia is a fascinating character. Remember when I tried to read The Sun Also Rises and I decided that if a character is unlikeable, they have to compensate by being interesting? Eustacia proves the rule. What a horrible woman-- but I'm hooked on seeing what awful thing she does next.

I finished reading this online during my lunch break and I did end up enjoying it. Poor Eustacia ended up more pitiable than she began, and I ended up feeling for her, even though she was so shallow, spoiled, and lazy.

Eustacia would be a great name for a cat. A particularly proud, regal cat.

[romantisaurusrex]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_g5eOOax6XlE/TLDV-YZHL8I/AAAAAAAAAHc/pr2D573INWo/s1600/jesus.jpg

[Mara]

I completely forgot to post about We by Yevgeny Zamyatin. I've been meaning to read this for years after hearing great things about it.

It's sort of impossible to talk about without comparing it to 1984, since they have the. same. plot. Except that We was written twenty years earlier, in Stalinist Russia, and is more concerned with communism than fascism. But other than that.

And even though it was very good (and predated 1984) I liked We a little bit less. Mind you, the writing was excellent-- lyrical, dream-like, stream-of-consciousness prose that is so lovely you can lose the thread of what is actually happening because you're so busy admiring it. But the characterizations were weak, and some of the plot points (particularly the in the final third, leading up to the conclusion) were repetitive and uninspired.

Don't take that as a non-recommendation, though. This is a great read, and an essential read for anyone interested in dystopian literature. I'm really glad I finally got my hands on a copy.

[Mara]

Every time they mention the Archduke Ferdinand in War and Peace, I am confused for a split second.

[Mara]

Finally gave up and found a good character list for War and Peace online that includes everyone's crazy nicknames.


Nikolay Rostov (Nikolai, Nicholas, Kolya, Nikolinka, Nikolushka, Nicolas, Coco)

Because it's not enough to have more characters in a novel than I have Facebook friends, you have to refer to them by an entirely new name every time we see them. Yikes.

That said, I'm really enjoying the book so far. (I'm a few chapters into Book Two.) I just have to pause the CD to figure out all the threads in my head. What did people do before the internet? Take notes?

[ledfloyd]

so, i've finally finished the brothers karamazov. i didn't find it nearly as rewarding as crime and punishment. the first half of the book consists mostly of long theological arguments that i found to be rather trite and based on faulty logic. namely, the idea that without a belief in god all things are moral, which is just something i can't accept. i did find the ilyusha subplot quite moving (and given the way the book ends it could be argued it's more than a subplot), and when the murder comes into play the book gains some momentum, but, i'm sad to say given the high hopes i went in with, i just wasn't very impressed with it.

i started game of thrones last night, too early to make any declarations, but i'm not overly taken by martin's prose.

[Benny Profane]

Who here has read any John Cheever?

[Mara]

Who here has read any John Cheever?

I've read a few of his short stories, with "The Swimmer" being a high favorite.

[dreamdead]

Who here has read any John Cheever?

I've read all of the Stories of John Cheever collection, and "The Swimmer" and "Goodbye, My Brother" are indeed masterful, but Cheever's themes of urbane upper-crust middle-class life can get monotonous. That said, if you find Raymond Carver's material invigorating even in large doses, you should take to Cheever as well.

[Benny Profane]

I've read all of the Stories of John Cheever collection, and "The Swimmer" and "Goodbye, My Brother" are indeed masterful, but Cheever's themes of urbane upper-crust middle-class life can get monotonous. That said, if you find Raymond Carver's material invigorating even in large doses, you should take to Cheever as well.

Yeah I've read the first few stories and am liking it so far. They do seem to feature similar characters/themes and I was gonna ask if it switches up a bit so you kind of read of mind there. Will keep reading for sure.

[Kurosawa Fan]

"The Swimmer" and "Goodbye, My Brother" are the only two I've read, but both were brilliant.

[Thirdmango]

So I thought I would pimp this for a friend. About three years ago a friend told me of another friend I had never met who was doing some sort of project where she would date 31 guys in 31 days. I was date number 8 I think. Anyways, she ended up writing a book about it and it's about to be sold on amazon and what not so I thought I'd just pimp it to you guys since I don't really care to pimp it to anyone else.

http://31datesin31days.blogspot.com/p/book.html

[Mysterious Dude]

At the rate I'm going, I'll finish in approximately 41 days. September 20th, baby!
Doesn't look like this is gonna happen. I have to work tomorrow. :sad: Better give me another week.

This didn't pan out at all, by the way:

I think Andrei's imprisonment shall be interesting.
I was expecting some dramatic escape, like The Count of Monte Cristo, but instead he just shows up back home suddenly. Pierre's desire to kill Napoleon wasn't as interesting as I'd hoped it would be, either. I think I like Love and Death better.

[Mara]

I think I'm getting close to a quarter of the way through, but it's hard to tell with discs. I'm enjoying it more than I thought I would-- I'm connecting to the characters and finding the stories engaging.

[ThePlashyBubbler]

I'm stuck at 26 books read for the year, out of my unlikely goal of 52. Haven't picked anything up in the last week or so. Hmmm.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm stuck at 26 books read for the year, out of my unlikely goal of 52. Haven't picked anything up in the last week or so. Hmmm.

Well, I love your av. So you got that going for you.

[Mara]

One thing that War and Peace seems to be doing consistently is to show you the worst qualities of a character the first time you meet them, and then make them gradually more likeable and empathetic as they go on. Vasily is a schemer, Pierre is a fool, Andrei is conceited and cruel, Dolohov is a sociopath, Maria is pious and naive... and so on.

Pierre I'm really coming around on. He started off as just an embarrassment, then I felt sorry for him, and now he just shot Dolohov and I might love him.

[Mysterious Dude]

I finished War and Peace. I now have a complete understanding of war. I feel a bit like this girl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j54yGxuk0yo).

I think I was pretty tolerant of the bits of non-fiction/opinion that Tolstoy sprinkled throughout the book, but the last fifty pages, which were nothing but opinion, were not fun at all. But I really wanted to be done with it, so I've hardly done anything all day other than read War and Peace.

[Mara]

I'm maybe a quarter of the way through. Nicholai just lost a massive bet to Dolohov.

By the way, I find descriptions of devastating gambling really stressful. One just freaked me out recently in The Return of the Native. I just get really agitated and distressed. I don't know how people can emotionally handle gambling.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Has anyone ever read any of Leonard Cohen's poetry? I'm thinking about getting my girlfriend a collection for her birthday, but I dunno which one to get.

I'm only familiar with his music (which I quite like)

[Duncan]

Has anyone ever read any of Leonard Cohen's poetry? I'm thinking about getting my girlfriend a collection for her birthday, but I dunno which one to get.

I'm only familiar with his music (which I quite like)

Book of Longing > The Spice-Box of Earth

That's all I've read.

[dreamdead]

Helen Schulman's A Day at the Beach is another of a set of sentimentalist reactions to 9/11. She tries to integrate material about dancing, the Beach Boys, and a quiet mediation between the national and the personal, but all of the content is so suffused with the personal that it overpowers any chance for the book to work on any level beyond that day's immediate reaction. Schulman's prose also comes off too one-note when she examines the male perspective. Claire Messud's The Emperor's Children is such a stronger version of similar themes and content.

[Winston*]

I bought this Kindle on impulse. It's weird trying to read a book in on this thing. Maybe I should hollow out a book and put it inside to acclimatise.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I bought this Kindle on impulse. It's weird trying to read a book in on this thing. Maybe I should hollow out a book and put it inside to acclimatise.

I've found that for casual reading, it's really convenient. For deep reading, where I have to analyze, highlight, etc., for school? I can't do it. I see a few kids in my classes using them, but I just can't do it. I need that book, the ability to flip through the pages and see actual highlights.

[Ezee E]

I've found that for casual reading, it's really convenient. For deep reading, where I have to analyze, highlight, etc., for school? I can't do it. I see a few kids in my classes using them, but I just can't do it. I need that book, the ability to flip through the pages and see actual highlights.
Granted, you can't flip pages, but can't you highlight on the kindle?

[Kurosawa Fan]

Granted, you can't flip pages, but can't you highlight on the kindle?

Yes, but the highlights are saved in a particular section. When I highlight something in a book, I often read what came before and after the highlight, not only for context, but to strengthen my ideas. With the Kindle, the highlights are easily accessed on their own, but within the book they're less convenient. Also, there is far less text on a "page," so that when I want to read around the highlight, I have to "flip" back or forward far more than with the book. You can decrease text size to help with this problem, but by the time you do all that, it becomes a far more complicated process than just having the book in front of you and paging through.

[Ezee E]

Think my next book will be Cosmopolis.

[dreamdead]

Think my next book will be Cosmopolis.

A new DeLillo reader, cool! I hope you enjoy it. Know, however, that it's typically regarded as one of DeLillo's weaker efforts of the last twenty years. So don't swear off him if you find it less than stellar.

[/plea]

[Winston*]

I've found that for casual reading, it's really convenient. For deep reading, where I have to analyze, highlight, etc., for school? I can't do it. I see a few kids in my classes using them, but I just can't do it. I need that book, the ability to flip through the pages and see actual highlights.

I'm not proud of how quickly after I bought it I found how to pirate books.

One advantage of the Kindle over paper books for studying though is the ability to search.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I'm not proud of how quickly after I bought it I found how to pirate books.

My knowledge came a few days before purchase, so consider yourself a better man than I.


One advantage of the Kindle over paper books for studying though is the ability to search.

True, and for whatever reason, this isn't something I ever took advantage of, which is probably a mistake.

[kuehnepips]

I bought this Kindle on impulse. It's weird trying to read a book in on this thing. Maybe I should hollow out a book and put it inside to acclimatise.


:lol:


*passes bottle and book*

[Mara]

I found chapter upon chapter upon chapter of hunting descriptions boring in Anna Karenina, and I find it boring in War and Peace.

Get it together, Leo.

[MadMan]

I keep trying to finish Hemmingway's The Sun Also Rises, but the book feels as if its stalled a bit with the group's trip to Spain.

[Mara]

I keep trying to finish Hemmingway's The Sun Also Rises, but the book feels as if its stalled a bit with the group's trip to Spain.

I couldn't finish it. Unspeakably dull. Hateable characters.

[Mysterious Dude]

I want to go to Jonathan Safran Foer's house and punch him in the face.

http://derekbeaulieu.files.wordpress. com/2011/02/tree.jpg

(That's his latest book, Tree of Codes).

[ledfloyd]

is that his way of saying "fuck you eReaders?" because if so, i kind of have to applaud that.

[Ezee E]

is that his way of saying "fuck you eReaders?" because if so, i kind of have to applaud that.
Not really sure why one would say "fuck you" to potential buyers, but whatev.

That looks like a kindergarden arts and crafts set up to me.

[MadMan]

I couldn't finish it. Unspeakably dull. Hateable characters.I like the characters somewhat, but that's only because I can somewhat relate to how the main character feels. And I've of course liked someone who didn't really feel the same way about me back, too.

If Foer's intention was that no one wants to read his latest book, then bam! Success.

[ledfloyd]

i picked up dead souls (constance garnett translation unfortunately) at the library today. i also grabbed a visit from the goon squad because i was looking for something yesterday and it sounded decent.

[Mara]

I finished the first half of War and Peace and picked up the second from the library today. Natasha is being insufferable, the worst kind of teenage girl, and needs a visit from the Smack Fairy. I'm hoping she grows up a little bit.

Pierre, though, I love. It took me awhile, but I really like him.

I also got John Dies at the End in good old-fashioned book format. Read the prologue. Suspect that the author spends too much time doing drugs and not enough time sleeping. Very engaging, however.

[SpaceOddity]

I finished the first half of War and Peace and picked up the second from the library today. Natasha is being insufferable, the worst kind of teenage girl, and needs a visit from the Smack Fairy. I'm hoping she grows up a little bit.


She grows up fat.
*grabs stopwatch and times her wobble*

[Mara]

She grows up fat.


I'm fine with that as long as her behavior improves.

Good to see you around!

[Morris Schæffer]

So anyone read the Jack Reacher novels? They any good?

[Ezee E]

Been liking Cosmopolis. Just need more time to read it. Now that i'm all moved, I should be set to read it all.

[D_Davis]

I also got John Dies at the End in good old-fashioned book format. Read the prologue. Suspect that the author spends too much time doing drugs and not enough time sleeping. Very engaging, however.

Wow - this seems so unlike your thing. It's an incredibly good and entertaining book. The best book I read last year.

Can't wait for the film - looks awesome.

[D_Davis]

I'm really getting into this Russian author named Vladimir Sorokin. I read The Ice Trilogy, and it it totally blew my mind. It's this totally bizarre, metaphysical, religious, epic, SF, political satire, historical conspiracy novel that is absolutely breathtaking in its scope and ambition, and entirely well-written (and translated).

And then I picked up his book The Queue, which is all about hundreds of people waiting in line, but none of them know what they are waiting in line for. The entire thing is told through single lines of dialog spoken by each subsequent person in the line as more and more people show up to wait.

I think this guy is really something special.

[Qrazy]

I'm really getting into this Russian author named Vladimir Sorokin. I read The Ice Trilogy, and it it totally blew my mind. It's this totally bizarre, metaphysical, religious, epic, SF, political satire, historical conspiracy novel that is absolutely breathtaking in its scope and ambition, and entirely well-written (and translated).

And then I picked up his book The Queue, which is all about hundreds of people waiting in line, but none of them know what they are waiting in line for. The entire thing is told through single lines of dialog spoken by each subsequent person in the line as more and more people show up to wait.

I think this guy is really something special.

It looks like he's done a bunch of film scripts as well, many of which have been adapted by different directors. I've actually seen the film '4' by Khrzhanovsky which was pretty good although it didn't totally win me over. His most recent script/film was with Alexander Zeldovich (director) called Miishen (Target). It came out this year, I think I"ll check it out.

SWvMZzlrpKM

[Morris Schæffer]

Well, I ordered The Pixar Touch by David Price. Seems like a great read, but first I need to finish Gomorrah. I'm taking my time with that one. :D

[Duncan]

I am giving up on The Golden Bowl by Henry James. I have less than 150 left in a 600 page book but it has gotten to the point where I just can't be bothered. I honestly can't remember the last time I put a book aside without finishing it.

[D_Davis]

It looks like he's done a bunch of film scripts as well, many of which have been adapted by different directors. I've actually seen the film '4' by Khrzhanovsky which was pretty good although it didn't totally win me over. His most recent script/film was with Alexander Zeldovich (director) called Miishen (Target). It came out this year, I think I"ll check it out.


Interesting. Thanks.

[Qrazy]

Interesting. Thanks.

I'm also going to watch the film that writer/director combo did together before Target called Moscow. I'll let you know how it is.

[D_Davis]

I'm also going to watch the film that writer/director combo did together before Target called Moscow. I'll let you know how it is.

Nice. Had you heard of Sorokin before?

[Qrazy]

Nice. Had you heard of Sorokin before?

Only in passing, haven't read any of his novels.

[D_Davis]

Only in passing, haven't read any of his novels.

Cool. I just wasn't sure if he was more well known amongst people who enjoyed Russian things. My friend tells me he's a pretty big deal in Russia, even in a more general sense.

[Qrazy]

Cool. I just wasn't sure if he was more well known amongst people who enjoyed Russian things. My friend tells me he's a pretty big deal in Russia, even in a more general sense.

Yeah he is pretty well known in those circles. One thing that I really love about Russia is they take pride in their high artistry there. You ask a random Russian who Tarkovsky or Norstein is and in my experience they usually know (non-cinephiles).

[Mara]

Wow - this seems so unlike your thing. It's an incredibly good and entertaining book. The best book I read last year.


You know, it isn't really my thing (although I like to read Cracked.)

But I think I really enjoyed it. The book is not without its problems, but I feel like its virtues made up for them with change to spare.

I think it was supposed to be funny and scary, but to me it was just funny and gross. The constant, over-the-top gore was sort of ridiculous, and eventually you run out of disgusting ways for creatures to die. (I think six different creatures combusted and rained down viscera. It got old.) Also, the episodic, written-for-the-internet format didn't translate perfectly to book format. I think some ironing out of the plot would have helped, as well as dealing with the episodic and fragmented narrative.

But it was funny. I mean, really freaking funny. The narration and characters were charming, the story was inventive, and I was impressed.

I read three other books on my long trip this weekend, and this was the only one worth writing up.

[D_Davis]

Nice, Mara. I agree with almost everything you said. Although I did find it pretty creepy, and unsettling in parts. And yes, really funny. I loved all of the chair puns in the Vegas action scene. Oh man...

Have you read Bubba Ho-Tep? I bet you'd love that, and some of Lansdale's lighter stuff, since John Dies in the End reads a lot like a Lansdale homage, although Lansdale's stuff is better written.

[elixir]

What's a good starting point for Raymond Carver? I assume some short story collection, but I don't know which.

[Grouchy]

What's a good starting point for Raymond Carver? I assume some short story collection, but I don't know which.
What We Talk About When We Talk About Love.

[dreamdead]

For Carver, either the collection that Grouchy identifies or his selected works, Where I'm Calling From. The former features a lot of his strongest works, and the latter still features a lot from WWTAWWTAL and offers a lens to see how his minimalist material develops and unfolds, in addition to having several new stories that suggested the areas he would have explored had he lived longer...

[Qrazy]

SWvMZzlrpKM

^ Apparently this is crap.

[D_Davis]

^ Apparently this is crap.

That's a bummer.

[Qrazy]

That's a bummer.

Yeah a friend of mine saw it at VIFF and said it never really built up to anything that it was basically one of the most expensive 'student' films they've ever seen.

[Mysterious Dude]

I'm having trouble getting into One Hundred Years of Solitude. GarcÃ*a Márquez seems to describe everything as though it happened a very long time ago. I notice a prevalence of the word "would" (e.g. "They would go into town, people would say..."). Occasionally, there will be some dialogue or a more detailed description of an event, but there never seems to be a complete scene. There's no immediacy to what happens.

I know a lot of people adore this book. What am I missing?

[elixir]

I'm having trouble getting into One Hundred Years of Solitude. GarcÃ*a Márquez seems to describe everything as though it happened a very long time ago. I notice a prevalence of the word "would" (e.g. "They would go into town, people would say..."). Occasionally, there will be some dialogue or a more detailed description of an event, but there never seems to be a complete scene. There's no immediacy to what happens.

I know a lot of people adore this book. What am I missing?

Uh...well, I read it a while ago, but I'll give this a shot. To me, its repetition and patterned quality was both the best and worst thing about it. It became trying at times for me because it was so damn cyclical and everyone had the same name, but then again that's what makes is so fascinating, making all these connections among the different generations as well as seeing what changes. I'm not sure what to say about your "complete scene" qualm since I'm afraid I don't remember it that well.

[Mara]

I know a lot of people adore this book. What am I missing?

I tried to read it at about fifteen and gave up. Since then I've enjoyed some of his short fiction, so I've often thought I should give it another shot.

[dreamdead]

I read Denis Johnson's Train Dreams, a short (116 pages in pretty big print) novella examining American Northwest logging and itinerant life during the 1920-1960s. It's sparse in its engagement with social history, choosing to explore the outer edges of bohemian life instead. That said, Johnson has a lovely way with everyday language and characters, generating evocative scenes with little splash.

This is a nice stepping stone as I wait for free time to read his Fiskadoro , which I've wanted to read for several months.

[D_Davis]

Let me just say that October has S'ed the D as far as book-reading goes. Everything I've read this month has been a disappointment on some level.

Hope that 1Q84 next week can make up for it. The end of the year should wind up in EPIC fashion:

1Q84
11/2/63
The Exegesis

[D_Davis]

Hurry up tomorrow! (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/books/la-ca-haruki-murakami-20111023,0,5967344.story)

[Mara]

Hurry up tomorrow! (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/books/la-ca-haruki-murakami-20111023,0,5967344.story)

I just read a really fascinating review of that book. I was considering it for my next commuting book when I'm done in a few weeks.

[D_Davis]

There are nearly 3,000 pages of awesome material being released in the next 4 weeks. Going to have to read fast.

[D_Davis]

I just read a really fascinating review of that book. I was considering it for my next commuting book when I'm done in a few weeks.

Yeah - it sounds awesome.

[Glass Co.]

Anyone read Terry Jones' Barbarians before? For populist history it's one of the more informative I've read, and witty as hell of course.

[D_Davis]

Tomorrow is here, and so is 1Q84. Can't wait to start it at lunch. It's an absolutely beautiful looking book.

[dreamdead]

Tomorrow is here, and so is 1Q84. Can't wait to start it at lunch. It's an absolutely beautiful looking book.

Once the semester ends, I think this one is gonna be my enjoyable read for winter break. I've been ambivalent about his last few books, but I've long thought that he had a masterpiece in him and the critical acclaim for this one has had my Japanese literary chops watering...

[D_Davis]

I'm really hoping it redeems my October reading - I've had one dud after another this month. Ugh.

[D_Davis]

Yeah - this is a neat book. It's entirely Ballardian. I don't know why I've never made that connection before.

[D_Davis]

1Q84 lends itself well to reading while getting drunk in a bar. Nothing is happening, and I'm loving it, while falling head over heels in love with the characters.

[Glass Co.]

It's entirely Ballardian.

Well, I'm sold. Wishlisted. The fact that that man has no more work ever coming out fills me with extreme sorrow. What's are some of your favourite Ballard works, Davis? What ones does 1Q84 remind you of?

[D_Davis]

Well, I'm sold. Wishlisted. The fact that that man has no more work ever coming out fills me with extreme sorrow. What's are some of your favourite Ballard works, Davis? What ones does 1Q84 remind you of?

The Best Short Stories of J.G. Ballard is my favorite collection of short stories, ever. I also love Kingdom Come, War Fever, Concrete Jungle, Running Wild, and Empire of the Sun. Up until a couple of years ago, he was my favorite living author. I, too, feel a huge sadness knowing that there will never be a truly new Ballard work to read.

1Q84 has that same sense of modern alienation that Ballard so expertly employed. In a way, it's just another extension of the Phildickian outlook on modern society, although Murakami is, I think, more of a romantic than Dick and Ballard.

[Glass Co.]

The Best Short Stories of J.G. Ballard is my favorite collection of short stories, ever. I also love Kingdom Come, War Fever, Concrete Jungle, Running Wild, and Empire of the Sun. Up until a couple of years ago, he was my favorite living author. I, too, feel a huge sadness knowing that there will never be a truly new Ballard work to read.

1Q84 has that same sense of modern alienation that Ballard so expertly employed. In a way, it's just another extension of the Phildickian outlook on modern society, although Murakami is, I think, more of a romantic than Dick and Ballard.

Yes! I totally agree on your calls (his short stories collection is undoubtedly top five for me, and maybe my fave as well). I have yet to read Running Wild, and I really need to re-read Kingdom Come as I rushed through it for class.

I do love how he continues the spirit of both Kafka and Dick, both in terms of modern alienation and the enveloping of society by forces beyond our own control. Glad to see there is a potential new author to continue this vein. :)

[D_Davis]

Yeah, it's funny that I've never made that connection before. Although I'm not the biggest Murakami fan - I've only read a few of his books, and liked them for the most part. Part of my desire to read 1Q84 was based solely on it being such a big literary event. I like being part of these sub-cultures.

Ballard's death was hard for me; one of the few celebrity deaths to really impact me in a meaningful way. He was a huge part of my life. One of the first subversive authors that I got into in high school. He and Robert Anton Wilson were like some kind of legends to me. As far as I'm concerned, the best literary education you can get is through reading Ballard and Wilson.

[Mara]

Oh, I had a note on War and Peace. I keep mentioning how surprised I am by what the Russians are willing to discuss, but English novels of the same period would never, ever mention. I have a new entry: abortion. That one surprised me.

[Mara]

Also, how weird is it that people were marrying cousins right and left, but if a woman married a man, her brother cannot marry his sister, because that is legal incest?

[D_Davis]

I don't know if anyone else here has read Lonesome Dove, but that novel is truly something special. So epic. One of the best novels I've ever read in my life. I will never, ever forget my time I spent with those characters.

[D_Davis]

The first book of 1Q84 is very good. It is a book of small moments, and one that progresses at a very slow yet interesting pace. I am enjoying spending time with the characters.

[Li Lili]

I haven't read 1Q84, but I like Murakami's novels, read about 10 of them, I remember my first was Kafka on the shore, which I directly loved and made me want to read more of his books. Then I continued with The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World, A Wild Sheep Chase, Sputnik Sweetheart, After Dark (my least favourite) and I stopped reading his novels, but this year I read South of the Border, West of the Sun, which made me want to read again, I love his oniric, surreal ambiance, his lonesome characters....

At the moment, I'm reading Jonathan Coe's The House of Sleep, it's my 4th book my him. Anyone knows him ? I recommand his books. I started with The rain before it Falls, a story based on 20 photos commented by a just passed-away aunt about 3 generations of women in England from the WW2 up to now. Then, I read The Rotter's club and The Closed circle, 2 books with the same characters but in different times, the first is set in Birmingham in the 70's, the second in 2000's both with lots of social and political backrounds. It's quite satirical, critical to the UK's policy and the social environment.

[D_Davis]

The first 450 pages of 1Q84 feel as if Murakami is pushing a giant boulder up a hill. As he's pushing, the boulder is gathering all kinds of stuff, and as the layers of debris, moss, and things cake on, the characters and their lives become more entwined and complicated. And then, on about the 450th page, the top of the hill is reached and the boulder begins its descent down the other side, gaining speed, crashing into things, and plowing through the plot. I'm to a point now where I just can't read it fast enough.

[D_Davis]

Man, how awesome will next week be? 11/22/63 and The Exegesis V.1 - on the same day. I wonder if there has ever been another single day on which my two favorite authors had new material released?

[lovejuice]

Read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court for the first time. Really enjoy it. The funny thing is, for some reason, I thought this movie was an honest adaptation to the novel, like it actually involved baseball and such. This has put me off the book for so long.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/33/Kid_in_king_arthurs_court_post er.jpg/220px-Kid_in_king_arthurs_court_post er.jpg

So a bad adaptation can ruin a book after all. (IMDB reveals the movie features both Kate Winslet and Daniel Craig. Hot Damn, who would have though!)

[dreamdead]

Back in the first third of DeLillo's Underworld, which our class is looking at for three weeks. There's times when I'm just in awe of his sentence structure, linking ideas and alliteration rhythmically better than any other contemporary writer. He gets a bit repetitive at times with his distancing effect, which occasionally unnecessarily displaces the subject of a sentence, but when he's on, the pages turn.

I'm excited to see what students think of it, beyond the obvious "OMG, couldn't he have used an editor?" comments...

[D_Davis]

I just got my copy of The Exegesis of Philip K. Dick, ed. by Pamela Jackson and Jonathan Lethem. It's a gorgeous edition. Can't wait to read it. It's like the ultimate metaphysical mystery/essoterica. Very intimidating, but I'm sure its going to be amazing.

[Milky Joe]

Did you pick it up in a store or did you have it pre-ordered? I guess it was officially released today. What was the point in pre-ordering?? I need it nowww...

[D_Davis]

Did you pick it up in a store or did you have it pre-ordered? I guess it was officially released today. What was the point in pre-ordering?? I need it nowww...

I just ordered it a month or so ago when I found out it was released. Had Amazon Prime at the time, so it got here fast.

[Milky Joe]

What was the point in pre-ordering??

I went to the bookstore tonight to start reading it and I realized the answer: because I paid half the price. Worth it, I'd say.

By the way, the book is beautiful. When I turned the page to read the first line after reading the (excellent) introduction, I was overcome by a feeling that this is a momentous book, or it should be. This is a book that could likely alter a great many minds, minds that sorely need altering.

[Mara]

Has anyone read Zusak's The Book Thief? I'm about a third of the way in and I'm torn. Sometimes I think it's intriguing, but then half the time I feel like it's kind of terrible. Everyone I know who has read it loved it.

[D_Davis]

By the way, the book is beautiful. When I turned the page to read the first line after reading the (excellent) introduction, I was overcome by a feeling that this is a momentous book, or it should be. This is a book that could likely alter a great many minds, minds that sorely need altering.

Unfortunately, it will probably be largely ignored.

It is a great looking book. I love the inclusion of the original prints; I can't imagine what Lethem and co. had to go through to decipher so much of that chicken scratch.

[kuehnepips]

Has anyone read Zusak's The Book Thief? I'm about a third of the way in and I'm torn. Sometimes I think it's intriguing, but then half the time I feel like it's kind of terrible. Everyone I know who has read it loved it.

I didn't love it.

[Mara]

I didn't love it.

Good not to be alone. I'm considering giving it back to the lender and lying about reading it-- I'm frustrated enough that I don't really want to finish it, even though I don't hate it per se.

[Mara]

War and Peace. All done. Loved it, and it didn't feel like work until the second epilogue-- and even then, it was work with fascinating rewards if you struggled through it.

[Glass Co.]

War and Peace. All done. Loved it, and it didn't feel like work until the second epilogue-- and even then, it was work with fascinating rewards if you struggled through it.

Planning on starting this next month. This is going to be like climbing Everest.

[Mara]

Planning on starting this next month. This is going to be like climbing Everest.

Except for that last bit, it wasn't actually a difficult read. Long, yes, but there's plenty of plot to flesh it out. It rarely wanders into that fault of epics where you spend dozens of pages on uninteresting background or activities. ("Rarely," not "never," chapters-where-we-go-hunting.)

[Mara]

And my new commuting audio book is The Hobbit. Haven't read it since I was 12 or so, so it's pretty much like reading it for the first time. I barely remember the bones of the story.

[D_Davis]

And my new commuting audio book is The Hobbit. Haven't read it since I was 12 or so, so it's pretty much like reading it for the first time. I barely remember the bones of the story.

I like it soooo much better than LotR.

******

So my friend is heading to Poland today. He's at the Seattle Airport now, and texted me saying that some little magazine stand there has a large stack of The Exegesis of Philip K. Dick, sitting right next to a large stack of some Mitch Albom book. That's just weird.

[Mara]

I like it soooo much better than LotR.


I remember thinking this when I first read the LOTR trilogy in high school. Let's just say, I think Tolkein is absolutely brilliant at certain things, but isn't a very... writerly writer.

[D_Davis]

Let's just say, I think Tolkein is absolutely brilliant at certain things, but isn't a very... writerly writer.

That's why I think The Hobbit is so good - because it is very simple. He simply tells a delightful story full of adventure.

[Milky Joe]

So my friend is heading to Poland today. He's at the Seattle Airport now, and texted me saying that some little magazine stand there has a large stack of The Exegesis of Philip K. Dick, sitting right next to a large stack of some Mitch Albom book. That's just weird.

Yes! That is a good sign.

[lovejuice]

I like it soooo much better than LotR.
Me too, actually.

[Mara]

I'm having fun with The Hobbit. I had forgotten, but remembered, the bit with the trolls, and also remembered an interesting tidbit: it had been the first time I had ever heard the word "mutton" and I had to look up what it was.

[D_Davis]

1Q84, by Haruki Murakami

Murakami is a weird author to me. When I think about his writing style and his subject matter, I feel as though I should absolutely love his books. His books are kind of weird, borderline SF, with metaphysical and religious pontification, and characters who often feel just slightly disconnected from their realities. His work is an extension of Phildickian and Balardian principles.

However, I've never truly loved a Murakami book. I've liked everyone that I've read a great deal, but I only liked them.

The thing is, when I was reading 1Q84, I greatly enjoyed almost all of what I was reading. It is interesting, and I like the simple yet elegant style. However, when I wasn't reading it I wasn't thinking about it. The book's plot and characters never gripped me in a way that made want to pick it up every single chance I had. I didn't devour it - I nibbled at it. And I wanted to devour it.

There is a point near the end of the second book that is truly incredible. It feels as though everything is building up to this point, but when that point occurs I felt as though the rest of the novel, nearly 300 pages, never quite regained that momentum. This long novel starts out quietly, near glacially-paced, builds to a frenzy, and then becomes very still and quiet again. I'm sure this was intentional, but it did become harder for me to build up the enthusiasm to finish it.

So yeah - I didn't love, but I did like it. It's a good, solid book. Perhaps it is an "important" book; I do think that Murakami is saying some interesting things here, and I'm sure that those readers who did love it will be returning to this one for repeat readings.

[dreamdead]

Passed the halfway point on DeLillo's mammoth Underworld. That deserves celebration. And even though it's easy enough to parody DeLillo's prose, when the man is on, he is on. There's just whole movements of ideas to savor, and I'm loving how central film is to his commentary on post-Cold War America.

Will likely read Behold the Man by Moorcock afterwards.

[Mara]

Well, my book club finally picked a winner. All Creatures Great and Small by James Herriot is ridiculously charming, full of personality and amusement. The book is the semi-autobiographical account of a Scottish vet who becomes enamored of the Yorkshire countryside and people where he cares for the farm animals in the late 1930's. The chapters are mostly self-contained anecdotes about the eccentric locals and difficult medicinal cases he encounters.

A little research makes it sound like Herriot is pretty celebrated in England, but I'd never heard of him before. I wish I had. I might check out all his sequels.

[kuehnepips]

The TV-series in the 70s was a fav. of mine.

[Mara]

The TV-series in the 70s was a fav. of mine.

Apparently, it's on Netflix Instant. I may have to check it out. I can believe it would make a great comedy-- lots of situational comedy and wacky locals.

[lovejuice]

Can you help me think of novels featuring tyrannic, hypocritical religion figures, along the line of The Hunchback of Notre Dame? It should be abundant but I just can't come up with enough at the moment.

[Mara]

Can you help me think of novels featuring tyrannic, hypocritical religion figures, along the line of The Hunchback of Notre Dame? It should be abundant but I just can't come up with enough at the moment.

The Rapture of Canaan was pretty good.

It's not the main storyline in Tom Jones but there are some good examples.

[Benny Profane]

Go Tell it on the Mountain - but he's just a super-religious, abusive father, not really affiliated with the church.

[Mysterious Dude]

The Scarlet Letter?

[lovejuice]

Go Tell it on the Mountain - but he's just a super-religious, abusive father, not really affiliated with the church.

This is the first book I come up with. Are you talking about Gabriel? Isn't he actually a preacher by the end?

[Benny Profane]

This is the first book I come up with. Are you talking about Gabriel? Isn't he actually a preacher by the end?

Yes, Gabriel, and you could be right. I don't remember him as a preacher but it's been awhile. One of the best I've ever read though.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Can you help me think of novels featuring tyrannic, hypocritical religion figures, along the line of The Hunchback of Notre Dame? It should be abundant but I just can't come up with enough at the moment.

The Poisonwood Bible leaps to mind, though the book is merely good.

[Hugh_Grant]

KF, are you reading Kim for a class?

[Kurosawa Fan]

KF, are you reading Kim for a class?

Yes, my class on imperialism. Haven't started it yet, but it's the next book I have to read for any class. We don't meet until after the Thanksgiving break, so I have a couple weeks to read the first half.

[Winston*]

Read Erik Larsson's In the Garden of Beasts. Quite a strong account of 1933-1934 Berlin, but disappointing after The Devil in the White City. With The Devil you could believe that the two characters Larsson focussed on were the most interesting within the milieu, whereas Ambassador Dodd and his awful daughter clearly were not.

[dreamdead]

So Michael Moorcock's Behold the Man is a fascinating little trip down the "What if?..." vortex of speculative fiction. Premised around a narrator, Karl, who travels back to Biblical times to ascertain Jesus's historical existence, the story soon mutates into how Karl actualizes the various prophecies and degrees of the Old Testament after seeing the historical "Jesus." It feels wholly written from an atheistic perspective, which offers some challenging angles of inquiry into faith, and I like how Moorcock uses Jungian archetypes to assert a value to spirituality even if the text ultimately dismisses the theological core of Christianity. Moorcock achieves enough of a dialectic, that is, that his critiques can be seen as careful considerations of a faith he doubts and not the blanket-statement rejection of the whole enterprise. Really interesting for its scant 144 pages.

[D_Davis]

Nice review, DD.

It's a pretty good little book.

****

Next up for me, The Exegesis of Philip K. Dick. I have no idea what to expect. This will be the 4th ~1,000 page book I've read this year. Definitely a record for me.

[ledfloyd]

an addenda from my trip. books on tape in the car just aren't for me. my mind wanders too much while i'm driving, or i get distracted by paying attention to what's going on outside the car. but i had a really hard time following a narrative. not a big deal though, music got me through!

[Hugh_Grant]

Yes, my class on imperialism. Haven't started it yet, but it's the next book I have to read for any class. We don't meet until after the Thanksgiving break, so I have a couple weeks to read the first half.

I always start my colonial/postcolonial class with "The Man Who Would Be King." Students really seem to like it.

[D_Davis]

J.G. Ballard fans (I think there is another one here) will get a kick out of this review of a new "biography" of the man. (http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/the_inner_man_a_review_of_the_ first_biography_on_j_g_ballard )

[D_Davis]

The Exegesis of Philip K. Dick reads like a diary written by a character in one of Dick's novels trying to figure out why the heck all this crazy stuff is happening to him. That Dick felt more and more like a character in one of his novels, and that people constantly told him that the real world was becoming more Phildickian by the day, probably had a lot to do with this.

[Qrazy]

After being disappointed by Slaughterhouse Five I thought I'd finally give Vonnegut another chance. I read through Cat's Cradle today and was equally unenthusiastic. His characterizations are simply paper thin and he'd as soon get to the core of his central thesis as crack mildly amusing jokes about it. So ultimately a mildly entertaining, sometimes funny, quick read but with so little meat on it as to not sustain my interest very far. Although I think Monty Python probably borrowed his bokonon death rites for their Meaning of Life praise be to God sequence, so that was kind of an interesting connection to see.

[Mara]

My return to The Hobbit after twenty years was completely enjoyable. I had forgotten huge chunks of the novel, some of which came back to me ("Of course! Dwarfs in barrels!") and some of which did not (Beorn.)

A fun, light little read that avoids much of LOTR's bleakness.

I'm mad because I had my next audio book picked out, The Brothers Karamozov and the library copy ended up being abridged. Eff that. I was, yet again, stuck with trying to pick up whatever was on the shelf and decided to give Dracula another go. I remember liking it at sixteen. We'll see.

Still annoyed, though. This has been my year of Russian literature: Anna Karenina, War and Peace, Crime and Punishment and We. I've finally broken my block against reading Russian translations and I want to keep going, dang it!

[D_Davis]

So far, the letters addressed to Claudia Bush, dated November 26th and 29th, 1974, have been the beset and most powerful moments of PKD's Exegesis. Powerful stuff.

[Qrazy]

Still annoyed, though. This has been my year of Russian literature: Anna Karenina, War and Peace, Crime and Punishment and We. I've finally broken my block against reading Russian translations and I want to keep going, dang it!

The best, eh?

You should hit up some Gogol as well.

[Kurosawa Fan]

The best, eh?

You should hit up some Gogol as well.

The Master and Margarita!

[D_Davis]

Vladimir Sorokin!

Speaking of which, going to start The Queue tonight. The entire novel is told through the dialog of one subsequent person after another waiting in line for something, but nobody knows what.

[Qrazy]

http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/

Look at the reader's list. Good to know that Ayn Rand and L Ron Hubbard are the greatest authors of our time. *blows brains out*

[lovejuice]

http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/

Look at the reader's list. Good to know that Ayn Rand and L Ron Hubbard are the greatest authors of our time. *blows brains out*

But to their credit all these novel:

TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD
GRAVITY’S RAINBOW
THE FRENCH LIEUTENANT’S WOMAN

are included only in the reader's list, not the board's. Shame on them. :evil:

edit: Melville is right. I initially miss THE GRAPES OF WRATH and I, CLAUDIUS on the board's list.

[Mara]

The Master and Margarita!

You guys are challenging my internal hang-ups all over the place. The library system doesn't have this in audio format, but I'll put it in my mental queue.





The reason I have dug my heels in and completely refused to read that book is because of a boy. I know. It's dumb.

[Melville]

But to their credit all these novel:

TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD
GRAVITY’S RAINBOW
THE GRAPES OF WRATH
THE FRENCH LIEUTENANT’S WOMAN
I, CLAUDIUS

are included only in the reader's list, not the board's. Shame on them. :evil:
Grapes of Wrath is number 10, and I, Claudius number 14 on the board's list. It's kind of surprising that they'd publish the results of the reader's poll when it was obviously taken over by a deplorable cultus. The board's list is pretty good, and it served as my introduction to many great books back when it first came out, but it's kind of ridiculously weighted toward the beginning of the century. Obviously a list like that is going mostly for established classics rather than trying to establish newer books that they think should stand the test of time, but if it's going to be so heavily weighted, they may as well just make a list for the first half of the century. And it feels padded out with pretty mediocre early-20th Century writers—three books by Evelyn Waugh?

[D_Davis]

How in the hell does Battlefield Earth rank on any top list?

[ledfloyd]

The reason I have dug my heels in and completely refused to read that book is because of a boy. I know. It's dumb.
you shouldn't let KFan dissuade you. it's a great book.

i'd be really interested in hearing your take on karamazov. i went into it expecting to love it and just... didn't.

[Qrazy]

Melville go weigh in on the atheist thread. Your philosophical acumen ought to expand the conversation in compelling ways.

[Melville]

Melville go weight in on the atheist thread. Your philosophical acumen ought to expand the conversation in compelling ways.
I started to write a response about how free will vs. determinism isn't a meaningful distinction, but I was too preoccupied by other things.

EDIT: And I meant to respond to your post about Bad Lieutenant the other day, but never got around to it. I found the movie hilarious and absurd the whole way through, not just in a few specific moments as you did, and I think de-emphasizing the police procedural elements would cripple it, because the off-kilter nature of those elements, the very weird treatment of those genre norms, is what sets the tone for the whole thing.

[Kurosawa Fan]

you shouldn't let KFan dissuade you. it's a great book.

:confused:

I love The Master and Margarita. In fact, I'm wearing this shirt (http://shop.outofprintclothing.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode =B-1008) right now. I'm trying to get her to put aside past prejudices and read it.

[Qrazy]

:confused:

I love The Master and Margarita. In fact, I'm wearing this shirt (http://shop.outofprintclothing.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode =B-1008) right now. I'm trying to get her to put aside past prejudices and read it.

He was joking that you were the guy that was making Mara not want to read it.

[Qrazy]

Speaking of Russian literature has anyone read Goodnight! by Zinyavsky (written under the pseudonym Abram Tertz)? The guy at the bookstore today recommended it to me... by the way Melville I was at the bookstore purchasing... The Brothers Karamazov!

[Kurosawa Fan]

He was joking that you were the guy that was making Mara not want to read it.

Oh. That joke was definitely lost on me. My apologies, ledfloyd, if that was your intent.

[Qrazy]

I started to write a response about how free will vs. determinism isn't a meaningful distinction, but I was too preoccupied by other things.

EDIT: And I meant to respond to your post about Bad Lieutenant the other day, but never got around to it. I found the movie hilarious and absurd the whole way through, not just in a few specific moments as you did, and I think de-emphasizing the police procedural elements would cripple it, because the off-kilter nature of those elements, the very weird treatment of those genre norms, is what sets the tone for the whole thing.

I don't know scenes such as a debriefing with a bunch of characters I don't care about didn't really seem off-kilter to me, just tedious.

Also the other things you are preoccupied with are transient. Get your priorities straight. :P

[Mara]

He was joking that you were the guy that was making Mara not want to read it.

That's how I read it.

Nah, this boy thing was years ago and I have to get over it. The thing was, I really liked him. We'd met a few times and I was into him and he was into me, which is a rare thing. But we lived really far apart and never spent any significant time together. Then, due to the wedding of a mutual friend, we ended up in a scenario where we were going to be spending a ton of time together over the course of about a week, and I was excited.

Two days into the week I figured out that he was the most preposterous, humorless, pretentious, egocentric, lazy little poop in the world. He went on and on about his own genius, while never actually doing anything creative, and acted like he was doing me a favor by hanging out with me, while actively trying to hang out with me all the time.

I had two choices: I could tell him I wasn't interested, and possibly disrupt the wedding party and make things awkward, or I could tough it out until the end of the week, when we'd be in different states again. Being absurdly non-confrontational, I chose the latter.

Which is how I ended up out with him... on a date, I guess... while he sat in the car and spent four hours explaining to me why The Master and the Margarita was the most brilliant book in the history of ever, and how ashamed I should be that I hadn't read it, and how could I even consider myself an intellectual, and blahdy blah blah.

I sat there thinking, "I HATE YOU. I WILL NEVER READ THAT BOOK."

:lol:

[ledfloyd]

He was joking that you were the guy that was making Mara not want to read it.
yeah, that. sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Qrazy]

Been bingeing on sci fi recently. Read Sturgeon's More than Human today. Quite good. Saw hints of the Platonic forms (in Baby) and the approach struck me as Sturgeon attempting something along the lines of Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury filtered through his own concerns (the next stage of evolution, memory, loneliness, etc).

Next on the list:

Martian Chronicles
The Stars my Destination
Hyperion
Roadside Picnic
Ringworld

[kuehnepips]

Been bingeing on sci fi recently. ..

Weird, same here. And I just finished The Stars my Destination.

[Qrazy]

Weird, same here. And I just finished The Stars my Destination.

Was it good?

[kuehnepips]

Very.

Are you in Europe now?

[Melville]

Was it good?
One of the worst books I've ever read. The prose, characterization, and plot structure are shockingly amateurish. The only partly redeeming aspect is an ending similar to (and written prior to) 2001's, though it lacks Kubrick's formal brilliance that expressed the meaning of that ending so perfectly and spectacularly.

[D_Davis]

Weird, same here. And I just finished The Stars my Destination.


Was it good?

One of the best.

[D_Davis]

The Queue is pretty good. It is remarkable how much Sorokin can convey only through 1,000s of lines of unattributed dialog, with a single line of description or narration.

[Kurosawa Fan]

yeah, that. sorry if that wasn't clear.

It's obviously just me. Forgive me, school has me pretty stressed out and overwhelmed right now. I'm off my game.

[Mara]

I have decided on this reread of Dracula to focus on the deeply-rooted suspicion the Victorian English had for anything that wasn't English, with a special emphasis on Catholic mysticism.

[Lucky]

Regarding Dracula, I just stumbled across this interesting article last week during my research for a project on Tuberculosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_Brown

[Qrazy]

Very.

Are you in Europe now?

No, I just have a crappy sleeping schedule.

[Qrazy]

One of the worst books I've ever read. The prose, characterization, and plot structure are shockingly amateurish. The only partly redeeming aspect is an ending similar to (and written prior to) 2001's, though it lacks Kubrick's formal brilliance that expressed the meaning of that ending so perfectly and spectacularly.

Doh! Well I'll probably read it anyway because I'm working my way through some top 100 sci fi lists.

[D_Davis]

Melville is dead wrong about it.

It's not often cited as one of the greatest science fiction books ever written for nothing.

My reivew:

Gully Foyle is my name
And Terra is my nation.
Deep space is my dwelling place,
The stars my destination.

This was a Golden Age, a time of high adventure, rich living, and hard dying...but nobody thought so.

The Stars My Destination is punk-effing-rock. It's a primal scream of prose, written with verve, skill, style, and a desire to tear down established norms - it's controlled insanity. It gives the big middle finger to the science fiction genre, punches it in the face, curb stomps it, steals its car and drives away with its girlfriend.

I cannot imagine having read this upon it initial publication in 1956; imagine Mozart hearing Minor Threat or Voivod - major head explosion. It shames many of its contemporaries, makes them look dated and small, and it continues to do so now, fifty-two years later. Samual R. Delany said that it is “considered by many to be the single greatest SF novel written,” and I wouldn't disagree with anyone making this proclamation.

Alfred Bester tells us the story of Gully Foyle, one of the most memorable protagonists I've ever encountered. This dude is a bad-ass: an amoral anti-hero hell-bent on revenge and the destruction of the establishment. He is THE anti-hero, all others cower in his presence: “I am vengeance, I am the night, I am Batman,” ha! It is to laugh. The catalyst for his plight, his anger, his quest of passion, and his ultimate growth into a moral being is a simple one; in a word, he was betrayed.

Foyle is a powerful character, a sledgehammer of personality, one that dominates the entire narrative. He is an imposing force; a foreboding storm cloud lurking over the heads of those who would stop him; a man driven by an idiot's determination and a primal urge. He is the definition of tenacious, he spits in the face of the absurd society in which he lives and laughs while walking away.

So much of what we consider modern “science fiction,” or “cyberpunk” can be traced back to Bester's novel, and even if he didn't invent these conventions, he did perfect their molds.

A partial checklist of ass-kicking found within:

* Men augmented with cybernetics to enhance their physical and mental abilities.

* Bullet-time, and martial arts.

* A world overrun with monstrous conglomerates, broken up into clans of ruling families and controlled by megalomaniac businessmen.

* Tribes of techno-bohemians living on asteroids where they brand each other with garish tattoos - a cult of savage scientists.

* People travel by “jaunting,” a kind of personal teleportation. A jaunt here, a jaunt there, a meeting on the West Coast at 9 a.m., a jaunt to the East Coast for an early lunch, followed by a jaunt back home thousands of miles away. It's a personal information super highway.

* Radioactive body guards.

* Men and woman who have deprived themselves of all senses in hopes of enlightenment.

* A telekinetic, seventy-year old child.

...And the list could just go on. Bester glances at as many ideas in this one book as some authors cherish during their lifetimes. That he handles it all with only a trace of the old infodump is his true genius. It's couldn't be more jam-packed with ideas, trust me, I think this was scientifically proven.

While I personally like The Demolished Man more [this is not true anymore], The Stars My Destination possesses an edge sharp enough to slice through an atom. It's an unrelenting trek through the stars, and beyond, spearheaded by a man bursting with unbelievable energy and emotion. With these two novels, Alfred Bester helped to bridge the gap between the pulps and the new wave; he was at the vanguard of literary science fiction, genre fiction that made outsiders pay attention.

The Stars My Destination benefits from this transitional period. It possesses a rip-roaring, hardboiled adventure yarn, and probes deep into more experimental territories with the use of typographical manipulation and a modern attitude. What's most astonishing is how dangerous it still is. This is a daring book, one that takes chances, and it is bolstered by its unwillingness to conform. For all that is said about the cyberpunk sub-genre, I find it a little telling that its most brave, interesting, and punk-rock example was written three decades before the term was even coined.

It makes sense, though, that one of my favorite books is one of his least favorite. :) We're like polar opposites. One of my most despised novels of all time is Moby Dick. :)

2001 wishes it had a tenth of the brilliance of Bester's book.

I've read the book 7 times, and the last time I read it I immediately started over, reading it twice in a row. It's the only book I've ever done that with.