The Book Discussion Thread [Archive] - Page 20

dreamdead

05-12-2011, 06:28 PM

That is so cool Dreamdead! Coming up with a syllabus that thoroughly covers that subject of literary study is tough. What about Hemmingway, Faulkner, O'Connor, Fitzgerald, Lowry, Baldwin, Steinback, Sherwood Anderson, Welty, Wharton, Woolf? Or more contemporary: Carver, Pynchon, Nabokov, Foer?

Whoops. Bad wording on my part. The class is a general elective for undergrad non-English majors, not for Ph.D students. But I, as a Ph.D student, am given free reign to taylor the course to my interests.

To answer your other questions, Dos Passos and West are substituting for the more canonical Hemingway, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner trifecta. I did Gatsby this semester, but students were resistant to going much beyond whatever their high school experience with it was, and I came away equally disinterested in the time spent recovering the same ground. Half the essays students wrote on it looked so close to online plagiarism that I'm avoiding it from hereon. And I like the idea of spending more time on the proletariat culture that was underway at that time with Dos Passos, which Hemingway and Fitzgerald largely circumvent in their most canonical works. It's a nice contrast to the common "Roaring Twenties" mindset that most students have in place via studying Gatsby.

We'll do O'Connor's "A Good Man is Hard to Find" as well, as well as a bucket-tun of poetry... Wharton's The House of Mirth was an underwhelming teaching experience last fall, as students argued that its narrative doesn't matter in our day and age, and despite my love for it, I've opted to forgo teaching it again until I'm in a class with English majors... Cather covers similar ground as Anderson... I haven't read Lowry or Lolita yet... I don't see the need to do both DeLillo and Pynchon, and I like DeLillo more... And I've done Extremely Loud the past two semesters. It's wonderful, well received by students, but I'm moving onto more circuitous takes on 9/11 fiction with Goodman.

megladon8

05-12-2011, 07:45 PM

About halfway through "Seize the Day".

Really enjoying it.

megladon8

05-13-2011, 02:32 AM

Nearly finished with "Seize the Day".

Very good. Heart-wrenching.

Lucky

05-13-2011, 03:17 AM

What made you not care for it? It's one of the most hilarious, demented, and weirdly profound novels I've ever read.

Well, I would agree with the demented part. I didn't find it hilarious, just peculiar. I found the lengthy footnotes about De Selby tedious. In fact, the whole middle of the book was a surreal mess to get through. I enjoyed it until he arrived at the police barracks, but then it became a muddled mess of abstract theories. Omnium, dimensions where you do not age, bicycles being personified as women, the world being a pancake...not my bag, I guess. I became invested again during the last two chapters where they make the big reveal (which wasn't a big shock) and I thought it at least ended well.

I liked the notion that hell is a neverending cycle.

Now because I wasn't too keen on it, I haven't bothered to read criticisms on the novel. I'm curious to hear why you and/or others find it profound.

Marley

05-13-2011, 04:32 PM

Whoops. Bad wording on my part. The class is a general elective for undergrad non-English majors, not for Ph.D students. But I, as a Ph.D student, am given free reign to taylor the course to my interests.

To answer your other questions, Dos Passos and West are substituting for the more canonical Hemingway, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner trifecta. I did Gatsby this semester, but students were resistant to going much beyond whatever their high school experience with it was, and I came away equally disinterested in the time spent recovering the same ground. Half the essays students wrote on it looked so close to online plagiarism that I'm avoiding it from hereon. And I like the idea of spending more time on the proletariat culture that was underway at that time with Dos Passos, which Hemingway and Fitzgerald largely circumvent in their most canonical works. It's a nice contrast to the common "Roaring Twenties" mindset that most students have in place via studying Gatsby.

We'll do O'Connor's "A Good Man is Hard to Find" as well, as well as a bucket-tun of poetry... Wharton's The House of Mirth was an underwhelming teaching experience last fall, as students argued that its narrative doesn't matter in our day and age, and despite my love for it, I've opted to forgo teaching it again until I'm in a class with English majors... Cather covers similar ground as Anderson... I haven't read Lowry or Lolita yet... I don't see the need to do both DeLillo and Pynchon, and I like DeLillo more... And I've done Extremely Loud the past two semesters. It's wonderful, well received by students, but I'm moving onto more circuitous takes on 9/11 fiction with Goodman.

I'm not familiar with West or Dos Passos but if this is a "masterpieces in American Lit" course then shouldn't at least one of those "big three" make the list considering their influence and canonical status? Sure, most high-school students had Gatsby shoved down their throats but what about studying other less popular works (albeit, still masterpieces) by these authors such as "Tender is the Night" or "As I lay Dying" and "In Our Time"? Then again, if your focus is going to be on the proletariat, you are correct in eschewing these authors. I think Steinbeck would be a nice fit: Cannery Row perhaps? For a non-english major class, not reading Wharton or Pynchon is a good idea. I'm still wondering whether or not your students will be up to the challenge of reading that 900 page monster of Underworld though. :lol:

I have no qualms with your Cather selection but having no 'Lolita' makes me a little sad. This is one of those novels that is bound to encourage class discussions and well deserving of its place in the canon.

Marley

05-13-2011, 04:33 PM

Nearly finished with "Seize the Day".

Very good. Heart-wrenching.

I need to read this. NOW.

Mara

05-16-2011, 02:26 PM

Burned through Revolutionary Road this weekend. Quick read, interesting, digestible, but I can't help feeling a little disappointed. The whole felt like less than the sum of its parts. Perhaps most intriguing was how ahead of its time it feels, with a modern perspective on the mores of the fifties, plus insight into the future of computers and office work, even though it was published less than a decade after it takes place.

megladon8

05-17-2011, 01:44 AM

"Seize the Day" was quite something.

A word Jen used to describe the ending really fits perfectly - cathartic.

Wilhelm's plight is that of the every man, regardless of race, social standing or generation.

Mara

05-17-2011, 03:03 PM

Marley

05-22-2011, 11:34 PM

So, Anna Karenina (1877) pretty openly discusses birth control. That's surprising. I'm trying to think of literature from that era or earlier willing to talk about it, and I'm drawing a blank. (Unless you count The Bible, and I don't.)

I'm almost done with the book. I'm loving it, but occasionally frustrated. The sequences unnecessary to the plot, and yet still absurdly long, continue to annoy me. I'm also frustrated by the fact that we spent (as I complained) an entire chapter discussing Vronsky's finances, showing that he is pretty much in debt and without much income, and yet now later in the book he is shown as being absurdly wealthy, with the most expensive, luxurious, and imported goods possible. I'm hoping there's still and explanation to come on that.

Did you manage to finish this one yet, Mara? I actually picked it up used the other day for $1 at a used book store and was wondering if you ended up loving it overall. The only other Tolstoy I have read was "The Death of Ivan Ilych but that was years ago and I can't remember a darn thing about it now. Also, what edition and translator is your book? When it comes to Russian literature, I never know which translation is the best.

Mara

05-23-2011, 01:32 AM

Did you manage to finish this one yet, Mara? I actually picked it up used the other day for $1 at a used book store and was wondering if you ended up loving it overall. The only other Tolstoy I have read was "The Death of Ivan Ilych but that was years ago and I can't remember a darn thing about it now. Also, what edition and translator is your book? When it comes to Russian literature, I never know which translation is the best.

I'm going to finish it, maybe tonight.

I was listening to it on audio CD, which I had to return to the library yesterday (since it was due.) I'm finishing the last 30 pages or so with my copy of the book, which is just a Wordsworth Classic edition. I'm think they're different translations, but not too different. My cheapo edition doesn't even list a translator.

I have a whole thing about reading translated books. They feel stiff and awkward to me. I've overcome it with this book, which is really a stunning achievement and has moved me beyond my little mental tickle... but more complete thoughts when I finish.

dreamdead

05-23-2011, 01:34 PM

Midway through Blood Meridian. It's a thoroughly engrossing read, awash in gorgeous and evocative prose, but not sure if it's ripe for teaching this fall. The narrative is presently so slight that it might get swapped out. Again, not because of the mediocrity of the book, as it is not, but because it doesn't feel readily teachable. Shucks.

Mysterious Dude

05-24-2011, 07:38 AM

I don't know if I can finish Absalom, Absalom!. Every sentence is a labyrinth. It's just... above me. :sad:

Mara

05-24-2011, 02:21 PM

I finished up Anna Karenina yesterday. It wasn't at all what I expected. Based on my limited knowledge of the book and what I've heard from people who have read it, I expected a more straightforward story about a sympathetic, forward-thinking heroine who falls into an extramarital affair and suffering ensues. (Like Madame Bovary or The Awakening or any other number of books that deal with this subject.)

Instead, Anna is a complex, almost unlikeable character. Strong? Yes. Compelling? Certainly. But she is also manipulative, vindictive, vain, and immature. Tolstoy does a fantastic job of showing exactly how powerless a woman becomes when she forgoes the cultural constructs that bind her, but it's hard to feel pity for a woman so self-obsessed. For every scene in which she is relateable (her secret, early morning visit to her son is wrenching) there are three scenes where you kind of want to smack her in the head.

Also, Anna is hardly a traditional main character. Perhaps a third of the novel is dedicated to her story, with long portions spent with Levin (probably the most sympathetic character), Kitty, Dolly, and Steva. These other plots are really interesting, but thematically are so different from Anna's story that they almost feel like a completely different novel that has been woven in. The tribulations of Anna do not mirror or reflect on the spiritual journey of Levin, or Kitty's love story. Only the sad dissolution of the love Dolly had for her husband seems to tie into Anna's story, though Dolly is much more conventional.

The page-stretching side plots that really annoyed me seemed the most prevalent about two-thirds of the way through the book. Up until then it had marched at a clip, and the last couple of books got back on track, so I just sort of had to power through it. The men go hunting! For five chapters! Sometimes they hit birds!

Overall, I have to say I was pretty impressed. The book does a great job of setting up a time and place, and a bloated cast of characters, that feels very complete and exhaustive. Read within the historical context, with knowledge that this way of life was teetering and ready to fall into communism, adds an additional level of interest.

Benny Profane

05-24-2011, 08:16 PM

Who here has read anything by James Salter?

Marley

05-25-2011, 01:09 AM

I don't know if I can finish Absalom, Absalom!. Every sentence is a labyrinth. It's just... above me. :sad:

Yep, this has been my experience with Faulkner so far. His writing isn't entirely incomprehensible and I didn't find "The Sound and the Fury" particularly difficult to follow in terms of narrative structure but a lot of the subtext went right over my head. Not sure if I possess the willpower to read any more of his works.

ledfloyd

05-25-2011, 01:23 AM

i'm currently plodding through speak, memory. it's good. i think i might try karenina next. tolstoy is one of my larger blind spots.

Marley

05-25-2011, 03:00 AM

I appreciate your thoughts on Anna Karenina, Mara. I have more of an incentive to read it now but it probably won't be for a little while because of time constraints.

Irish

05-25-2011, 05:57 PM

D_Davis

05-25-2011, 06:45 PM

Davis, I noticed you had Towing Jehovah on your best-of-2011 list in the other thread.

Do you have a write up of it anywhere, or for any of Morrow's books? Always been interested in the guy, especially since he's been around for awhile and hasn't got much attention despite continually coming up with wildly creative premises.

It's just listed as being read in 2011. I thought it was OK.

Short review...

I liked this, but it didn't wow me like Shambling Towards Hiroshima did. Parts of it felt too long. Morrow came up with a million dollar idea, but I don't think it warranted the book's length; or maybe Morrow simply lingered on the wrong parts for too long (the whole gladiatorial sequence on the junk island is an example of this). I think it would have had more impact as a novella, something that could easily be read in a single sitting so as to be more immediate. Or maybe it was just my own expectations that were blown out of proportion.

I do have to give Morrow the utmost respect for treating his characters with respect, especially Father Thomas and Sister Miriam. What could have been just a total dig at religion ended up being a thoughtful exploration of sadness and change. So while I suspect that Morrow is most likely somewhat anti-theist in his life, he is smart enough to know that theism plays an important role in humanity's existence, and explores the subject non-flippantly and with serious contemplation, while also being totally sacrilegious and hilariously irreverent.

Marley

05-25-2011, 09:50 PM

Who here has read anything by James Salter?

No, but I've heard good things about "A Sport and a Pastime." It's on my summer reading list.

Irish

05-26-2011, 07:16 AM

It's just listed as being read in 2011. I thought it was OK.

Thanks much for the write up!

I've been interested in Morrow for awhile, but I've never read him and I've never come across anyone who has read him either, until now.

D_Davis

05-26-2011, 03:00 PM

Thanks much for the write up!

I've been interested in Morrow for awhile, but I've never read him and I've never come across anyone who has read him either, until now.

Sure thing. I'd put him in the same school as Vonnegut.

Shambling Towards Hiroshima is awesome. My favorite of his, from what I've read (Towing Jehovah, and City of Truth).

Qrazy

05-26-2011, 05:46 PM

I'm going to finish it, maybe tonight.

I was listening to it on audio CD, which I had to return to the library yesterday (since it was due.) I'm finishing the last 30 pages or so with my copy of the book, which is just a Wordsworth Classic edition. I'm think they're different translations, but not too different. My cheapo edition doesn't even list a translator.

I have a whole thing about reading translated books. They feel stiff and awkward to me. I've overcome it with this book, which is really a stunning achievement and has moved me beyond my little mental tickle... but more complete thoughts when I finish.

Um... what? How can you read much of the great literature without reading translations? Better to just do a little research and find the best translation out there. But I agree with you that many translations are quite poor.

Mara

05-26-2011, 06:35 PM

Um... what? How can you read much of the great literature without reading translations? Better to just do a little research and find the best translation out there. But I agree with you that many translations are quite poor.

It's a problem. I have read a large number of translated books, they just bug me most of the time. When I am considering what book to read next, I have a tendency to shy away from translations.

Luckily for me, enough great literature has been written in English to keep me busy. I used to read books in French, but I've lost so much of the language that I don't think I could anymore.

I feel like the Russians are my biggest blind spots, so Anna Karenina was a good push for me. I enjoyed it and want to hit more, once I'm done with my current reading project... which will probably take me the rest of this year.

Mara

05-26-2011, 06:40 PM

Consider: when watching a film with subtitles, although you are viewing the dialogue through the (sometimes murky) lens of translation, most of the elements of the film will help to add sincerity and understanding. The visuals, the acting, the score, even the sound of the lines in their original language give you 90% of what you need to know.

But when I'm reading a translated book, half the time it just feels off to me, and it's hard to pinpoint the "wrongness." It's like listening to live music when it's half a beat off.

And translated poetry... sheesh. Is there even a point?

Qrazy

05-26-2011, 07:10 PM

It's very hard to translate poetry but it can be done. I have a buddy who takes it very seriously and works for ages finding the right turn of phrase to accurately convey the original meaning properly.

Extrapolating your cinema example I think there's a lot that can be conveyed about a work even in a weak translation... the overall structure, characters, etc. Sometimes you may lose a bit of linguistic excellence but the overarching concept is still usually captured. That is to say I'd rather read a poor translation of Dostoyevsky than never read him at all. Just as I'd rather see a poor print of a film by Fellini.

Mara

05-26-2011, 07:18 PM

I dunno, to me that's like only watching English language films for the same reason. Sure I could watch every John Ford film but I'd much rather watch a handful of Fords as well as some Fellini, Koreeda and Tarr.

There's a helluva lot more literature in the world than there is film.

And... to say again... I have read a lot of translations. I'm just saying that the slight artificiality of the language bothers me.

Mara

05-26-2011, 07:20 PM

That is to say I'd rather read a poor translation of Dostoyevsky than never read him at all. Just as I'd rather see a poor print of a film by Fellini.

Well, yes, I can see that point. Which is why I'm tackling the Russians now.

Qrazy

05-26-2011, 07:46 PM

There's a helluva lot more literature in the world than there is film.

And... to say again... I have read a lot of translations. I'm just saying that the slight artificiality of the language bothers me.

Well I removed that post because I saw you had addressed it in your next post... But nayway, ish, I mean yes there is. But I think it might be getting to the point in both mediums where it is impossible for a single individual to completely tackle all the great content of one or the other medium in a lifetime. Which is to say that for all intents and purposes for a single individual there will always be great content in either medium... but the greatest content in either medium still exists in the world at large and is not language specific. But yeah you've addressed that you already read translations so all of the above is moot... just elucidating my earlier point.

Qrazy

05-26-2011, 07:47 PM

Well, yes, I can see that point. Which is why I'm tackling the Russians now.

Good on ya. But yeah as I said I agree there are a lot of bad translations and the difference between a bad and a good translation is so vast that a bad translation can severely cripple a great work.

Irish

05-26-2011, 10:25 PM

Marley

05-27-2011, 02:45 AM

For the Russians in particular, look for Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky. Recent, fresh, modern. (Their translation of Anna Karenina is outstanding).

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_2?_encoding =UTF8&search-alias=digital-text&field-author=Richard%20Pevear

Good to know, thanks.

Would you happen to know if the translations by Constance Garnett are any good since I have this version of Crime and Punishment.

Kurosawa Fan

05-27-2011, 01:19 PM

For the Russians in particular, look for Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky. Recent, fresh, modern. (Their translation of Anna Karenina is outstanding).

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_2?_encoding =UTF8&search-alias=digital-text&field-author=Richard%20Pevear

I read their translation of Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov. Both were fantastic.

Mara

05-28-2011, 09:06 PM

Would you happen to know if the translations by Constance Garnett are any good since I have this version of Crime and Punishment.

She translated the version of Crime and Punishment I just picked up. I think she's known as being pretty good but a little dated, since she was one of the first people to translate the Russian novels.

I got C&P because, for the first time, I had trouble finding any of the books on my self-assigned reading list in the audio section of the library. I may need to look into inter-library loan. But C&P will keep me busy for a little while.

I also blew through Back When We Were Grown Ups by Anne Tyler this week. I read a few of her books in my teens and then lost interest. Perhaps because most of her protagonists are middle-aged, or because she's my mother's favorite author, I always sort of thought that she wrote "old people's books."

But I really enjoyed this one. It may be that I've grown up a little more and relate to her characters better, or maybe it's fun to read books set in Baltimore. I think I need to revisit The Accidental Tourist, which I remember liking, and Breathing Lessons and Dinner at the Homesick Restaurant. Maybe when I'm done with my current reading list.

ledfloyd

05-28-2011, 11:09 PM

a lot of people claim constance garnett eradicated the prose stylings of the writers she translated and replaced them with her own victorian style. she deserves a lot of credit for bringing the russians to the english speaking world but with pevear and volokhonsky working their way through the canon there's less and less reason to bother with her translations.

Morris Schæffer

05-29-2011, 07:46 PM

Don't know if Jeffery Deaver is considered a good writer, but his new, and first, Bond novel Carte Blanche is publised this week.

Marley

05-30-2011, 03:28 AM

Duncan

05-30-2011, 04:31 PM

Most of the Dostoevsky I've read and all of the Tolstoy I've read were translated by Garnett, and some of those books are among my all-time favourites. She's probably a little too stately at times, but there's particularly wrong with her translations, imo. I often feel the updated translations come off as ridiculous.

ledfloyd

05-30-2011, 07:48 PM

I often feel the updated translations come off as ridiculous.
how do you mean?

and for what it's worth, i first read crime and punishment in the garnett translation and it was and still is one of my absolute favorite books. to paraphrase qrazy from earlier, reading a garnett translation of dostoevsky is far better than not reading dostoevsky. there are just better options available.

from wiki:

However, Garnett also has had many critics, notably prominent Russian natives and authors Vladimir Nabokov and Joseph Brodsky. Brodsky notably criticized Garnett for blurring the distinctive authorial voices of different Russian authors:[2]
"The reason English-speaking readers can barely tell the difference between Tolstoy and Dostoevsky is that they aren't reading the prose of either one. They're reading Constance Garnett."

which i think is the key complaint.

Mara

05-30-2011, 10:05 PM

Squirrel Seeks Chipmunk: not bad, certainly, but surprisingly mean-spirited.

Kurosawa Fan

05-30-2011, 10:36 PM

Squirrel Seeks Chipmunk: not bad, certainly, but surprisingly mean-spirited.

Yes. Definitely. Certainly not a favorable look at humanity. And despite that mean-spirited tone, it was surprisingly bland. A few stories were particularly witty, but otherwise the material was mostly met with mild amusement and a smirk. Definitely a disappointment.

Mara

05-30-2011, 11:05 PM

A few stories were particularly witty, but otherwise the material was mostly met with mild amusement and a smirk.

Yeah, the smug condescension was grating. A couple of them had some nice observations, but the only one that was actually funny to me was the last one, with the singing hippopatomaus anus-leeches.

Benny Profane

05-31-2011, 01:22 PM

Light Years by James Salter is the superlative of every existing positive adjective I can think of. Easily one of the best books I've ever read. Salter is a minimal stylist who extracts maximum emotion from his gorgeous, gorgeous prose. The book is about marital crisis, between two creative but restless people, searching for freedom, for happiness, for something different and better while still clutching to the comforts of family. Spiritual journey sounds like such a cliche because this book feels so incredibly life-like. Salter delivers what I am chasing from literature; he has the ability to take the unobvious and transform it into the familiar, in the process illuminating something universal about us, and telling a precise, haunting, bittersweet story in the process through scattered bits of memory. It is about loss, whether it be love, family, friends, youthful vitality, or purity, and the efforts made to replace them. It is about possessing and renouncing. I can't remember the last time I was this spellbound.

Mara

06-02-2011, 01:45 AM

I seem to remember that I bought A Reliable Wife by Robert Goolrick on the glowing recommendation of... someone. I wish I remembered who. Because then I could find that person and punch them in the face.

What an unbelievable load of rubbish.

Kurosawa Fan

06-02-2011, 02:38 PM

D_Davis

06-02-2011, 06:50 PM

Found this old vintage Saroyan today:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/246739_188048687912450_1000012 19601760_515888_4682267_n.jpg

I had no idea he wrote a smutty pulp novel. That is awesome.

Apparently, it was made into a Russian film called, The Banishment

http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/review/4441

dreamdead

06-02-2011, 08:08 PM

In various stages of Wilde's The Picture of Dorian Gray (audio), Wharton's The Age of Innocence, and Egan's A Visit from the Goon Squad (concurrent reading with the wife). I'm amazed by by how quickly Egan's text goes by, how gorgeous Wharton's prose is, and how thorough Wilde's imagination and intelligence are. Multitasking this way is producing great results.

Lucky

06-02-2011, 11:26 PM

Wow. Consider it purchased the next time I'm at B&N.

Yeah, no kidding. With an endorsement like that, it's hard not to be sold.

I've added it to my "To Read" list which now consists of:

The Baroque Cycle – Neal Stephenson
Ragtime – E.L. Doctorow
Black Swan Green – David Mitchell
Light Years – James Salter

I'm pretty sure I can thank posters here for all of these recommendations that intrigued me.

Reading A Clash of Kings right now, only 200 pages in and I started grad school this week, so I have a feeling all I'll be reading this summer is Netter's Anatomy 5th Edition.

Winston*

06-03-2011, 12:01 AM

Debating whether to take Children's Literature or Restoration and 18th Century Literature as my second english paper in my final university trimester. This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make.

Irish

06-03-2011, 12:16 AM

V. S. Naipaul says women can't write. Discuss.

http://www.salon.com/books/jane_austen/index.html?story=/books/2011/06/02/naipaul_slams_jane_austen_wome n_writers

Mara

06-03-2011, 12:45 PM

V. S. Naipaul says women can't write. Discuss.

http://www.salon.com/books/jane_austen/index.html?story=/books/2011/06/02/naipaul_slams_jane_austen_wome n_writers

There are a couple guys on MC who say disparaging things about women writers. I ignore them to avoid blind rage. I very much doubt either of us are going to change one another's minds.

Benny Profane

06-03-2011, 12:58 PM

I've never read Naipaul but he's a horse's ass for saying that. But in all honesty, for whatever reason, I am far more interested in reading male authors than female.

kuehnepips

06-03-2011, 01:13 PM

We don't read Naipaul.

The Baroque Cycle – Neal Stephenson

Excellent. :pritch:

I've re-read the four Ice&Fire-books because I'm so excited about the fifth coming out next month...

Irish

06-04-2011, 08:02 PM

There are a couple guys on MC who say disparaging things about women writers.

That's disappointing.

ledfloyd

06-05-2011, 12:48 AM

has anyone posted thoughts on the pale king? i finally picked it up today. i'm about 25 pages in and enjoying it so far.

ThePlashyBubbler

06-05-2011, 03:16 PM

ledfloyd

06-05-2011, 07:17 PM

Regarding The Pale King, when it's good it's brilliant. On par with Infinite Jest in some respects, but there are some lengthy portions in the book's middle that consist of completely dry discussions of tax processes. After reading the notes at the book's end with all the ideas for characters and storylines, it ultimately seems like what's there would've made up maybe only half the eventual book -- and also been edited significantly to streamline it a bit.

Overall, quite positive, but also frustrating to see glimpses of how great it probably would've been had it been finished.
yeah, it's already a uniquely weird reading experience. given how it was assembled i'll come across things like the brief chapter about masturbation or the guy dying at his desk and wonder 'why did he choose to put that there?' maybe by the end it will make sense, but in the moment it's rather odd being able to second guess the editor's assumptions of the author's intent.

Mara

06-06-2011, 06:15 PM

150 pages into Allegra Goodman's The Cookbook Collector, which moves seamlessly between cultural critique of early 1990s financial excess and genuine concern for the lives of the privileged. Might finish it before the Krauss, since the narrative of .com's in that era rather intrigues me. Though she doesn't always bust it out, her prose and turns of a phrase are quietly beguiling.

I picked this up this weekend. It's not what I was expecting (all the comparisons to Austen made me expect a comedy, or at least broad satire.) But I think I'm enjoying it.

More thoughts as it develops.

D_Davis

06-06-2011, 09:22 PM

Took a bunch of my dust jackets into a local book shop to have them Brodarted:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/251568_188606877856631_1000012 19601760_519960_1895753_n.jpg

Great deal. She only charges a buck per cover.

D_Davis

06-07-2011, 04:26 AM

V. S. Naipaul says women can't write. Discuss.

http://www.salon.com/books/jane_austen/index.html?story=/books/2011/06/02/naipaul_slams_jane_austen_wome n_writers

Any of you guys remember 2008? I posted these:

There are no more great writers, says V S Naipaul - News, Books - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/there-are-no-more-great-writers-says-v-s-naipaul-837399.html)

Paul Theroux claims new biography reveals the true monster in V S Naipaul - Times Online (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.u k/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article3688422.ece)

Looks like this fat-header jerk-ass has a new book to sell.

Mara

06-07-2011, 03:24 PM

Looks like this fat-header jerk-ass has a new book to sell.

Interesting Salon.com article.

When bad people write great books (http://www.salon.com/books/writing/index.html?story=/books/laura_miller/2011/06/07/bad_people_great_books)

D_Davis

06-07-2011, 03:29 PM

Interesting Salon.com article.

When bad people write great books (http://www.salon.com/books/writing/index.html?story=/books/laura_miller/2011/06/07/bad_people_great_books)

There are more than enough non-bad people who write great books so that we don't have to and should not suffer those by bad people.

But then again, do we separate the artist from the art?

I do sometimes.

Qrazy

06-09-2011, 04:12 AM

Interesting Salon.com article.

When bad people write great books (http://www.salon.com/books/writing/index.html?story=/books/laura_miller/2011/06/07/bad_people_great_books)

'Virginia Woolf was a snob' hahaha aren't a great deal of respected artists? I mean come on. That's not so bad.

Winston*

06-09-2011, 04:29 AM

'Virginia Woolf was a snob' hahaha aren't a great deal of respected artists? I mean come on. That's not so bad.

Yeah, they could've picked a better female choice. Emily Bronte was a cannibal, for example.

Mara

06-09-2011, 12:35 PM

Emily Bronte was a cannibal, for example.

She was so delightfully nuts. Hear the one about when she cauterized her own arm?

As for authoresses with major personality flaws... hmm. George Eliot was an adulteress, of course, but that's just a sad story.

Oh, I got it. Anne Sexton sexually molested her kids. She's a great poet, but that's really disturbing.

Benny Profane

06-09-2011, 03:05 PM

Erik Larson's new book is pretty damn good so far.

dreamdead

06-09-2011, 07:36 PM

Jennifer Egan's A Visit from the Goon Squad is breezy and a pleasure throughout, and recommended to many in these parts. KF should dig it, should he ever get to it. All of the formal experimentation works, but moreover, the whole narrative is a successful study of people in different incarnations of themselves, struggling to right themselves at each moment. It's quite good.

Wharton's The Age of Innocence is rightfully a classic, a tempered study of the slow burn of intimacy and Archer's duel with himself and decency. It doesn't rival The House of Mirth for me, but I always enjoy reading her prose and ideas. The Custom of the Country will likely be purchased for perusal next year...

Mara

06-09-2011, 07:51 PM

I think The Age of Innocence might be my favorite Wharton.

By the way, dreamdead, I finished The Cookbook Collector and although I liked it overall, I had some mixed feelings. I thought Goodman did a great job of finding a very specific time period: the dot-com boom and burst, then September 11th, and managed to really anchor her characters there. This story couldn't have taken place over any other time. She also does a great job of creating a web of likeable (if flawed) individuals over two coasts.

But I found a few elements of the story frustrating. For one thing, the crazy coincidences kind of drove me nuts (randomly having relatives living right next to other people's relatives on opposite coasts, and the strange genealogical twist near the end) and I didn't find them believable or particularly necessary to the story. I also didn't understand why every character had to be... famous? Everyone's dad is a famous poet, or physicist, or grew up next to a billionaire software tycoon, and so on, and so on. It stretched the fantasy a little far.

And, speaking of fantasy, the ending was too fairy-tale happy for me. This was a book that avoided destiny and black-and-white relationships for the entire story, just to end like a Disney film. I didn't really get it.

Other than those qualms, though, I have to say I enjoyed this, and I'm intrigued to see where Goodman goes. She has some serious potential.

D_Davis

06-09-2011, 09:16 PM

Have you guys read any of Edith Wharton's ghost stories?

I've got this, but I haven't read it yet.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41UGe8rT5oL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

MadMan

06-12-2011, 12:47 AM

I've decided randomly to take up reading again. I grabbed A Clockwork Orange, Fight Club, and The Shining from my local library. I'm already halfway through Fight Club, and its really great although part of the reason I'm also reading it is because I'm curious about what Fincher changed for the movie adaption.

Raiders

06-12-2011, 12:14 PM

Light Years by James Salter

Reading this now. Already can tell it is going to be wonderful.

ledfloyd

06-12-2011, 08:29 PM

i am just over 300 pages into the pale king and am starting to get a bit depressed because it feels like he's just starting to get all the pieces into place and there are only 200 pages and change left. i guess it's a silly complaint for what's billed as an unfinished novel, but while it's definitely rough in it's assemblage there are some passages and chapters here that are among his best. the clever richly detailed morbidly funny observational type stuff that made me fall in love with him in the first place. as someone who has panic attacks i could really relate to the chapter about the intensive sweating, the plotting of exits in case of an attack, the fear of an attack making the eventuality of an attack more likely, &c. &c. so yeah, already lamenting the fact that this is going to have to end, and (aside from the event of a collection of uncollected stories or pieces of journalism) is likely going to be the last thing i read by DFW.

Milky Joe

06-12-2011, 08:57 PM

(aside from the event of a collection of uncollected stories or pieces of journalism)

That stuff is all coming, you can bet on it. Also a book of correspondence.

I find it difficult to want to go back to The Pale King the way I do with Infinite Jest. It really is kind of a bummer, however a beautifully written one. Plus I'm not entirely comfortable with the editing job that Pietsch did. That he did not include the section that was published in The New Yorker as "All That" because it he didn't think it was 'thematically relevant' gives me more than a little bit of pause.

Irish

06-13-2011, 07:24 AM

1958 recording of Raymond Chandler and Ian Fleming discussing thrillers and mystery writing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/james_bond/12601.shtml

dreamdead

06-13-2011, 05:13 PM

I think The Age of Innocence might be my favorite Wharton.

It is certainly less problematic in terms of its treatment of ethnicity and racism (i.e. The House of Mirth's Rosedale has no equivalent here, which is sad since I find Rosedale endlessly interesting). However, I find the near-uniformity of Anglo identity to be almost too clean and tidy, and wish for more messiness so that I can pull at the text more.

That said, the coda here is just devastating in its reveal, and how Archer pays homage to May one last time.

I've taken out a collection of her short fiction, and want to read some of the ghost stories she's done. A colleague has taught a few of her stories, and since I've only read (and loved) "Roman Fever," I figure this is a good opportunity.

By the way, dreamdead, I finished The Cookbook Collector and although I liked it overall, I had some mixed feelings. I thought Goodman did a great job of finding a very specific time period: the dot-com boom and burst, then September 11th, and managed to really anchor her characters there. This story couldn't have taken place over any other time. She also does a great job of creating a web of likeable (if flawed) individuals over two coasts.

But I found a few elements of the story frustrating. For one thing, the crazy coincidences kind of drove me nuts (randomly having relatives living right next to other people's relatives on opposite coasts, and the strange genealogical twist near the end) and I didn't find them believable or particularly necessary to the story. I also didn't understand why every character had to be... famous? Everyone's dad is a famous poet, or physicist, or grew up next to a billionaire software tycoon, and so on, and so on. It stretched the fantasy a little far.

And, speaking of fantasy, the ending was too fairy-tale happy for me. This was a book that avoided destiny and black-and-white relationships for the entire story, just to end like a Disney film. I didn't really get it.

Goodman's strength in The Cookbook Collector is definitely in constructing an immaculate depiction of an era. Everything feels very lived-in and real. And I find the 9/11 content (despite the slight incredulous bit about them on the plane) woven into the core well, so that it doesn't come off as really stretching.

The bit about everyone's celebrity status among family is well-deserved. I find the whole Sense and Sensibility homage/structure falters here a bit, as that kind of sentiment is very attuned to 19th century fiction and doesn't translate well into present-day society. It does raise the stakes that the younger generation needs to succeed to live up to their family's expectations, but you're right that it's hard to believe.

And although I thought the Rabbi/Jewish sequences added a needed counter-balance to the themes of capitalism and modern surveillance, the reveal of known neighbors did make me arch my eyebrows. The Geno.Type business makes sense to me, though, so I shrug at that moment and go with it.

Goodman's weakness, from this and Intuition, seem to be a general over-dependence on symbolic and thematic reversals, even if they become forced given the determining factors of a narrative.

I'm glad you came out of it happily than you did her YA fiction!

dreamdead

06-14-2011, 03:40 PM

Thought I'd try something different and am reading Sapphire's Push. It's... running the gamut between being decent and coming off as so racist (even if it's trying to prove that uneducated people are those who are racist) that it undermines its basic principles...

D_Davis

06-14-2011, 03:58 PM

If I were you, I would've read Precious, the novelization of the movie based on Push by Saphire.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/61760_124779510906035_10000121 9601760_148536_4934012_n.jpg

dreamdead

06-14-2011, 05:08 PM

Hah, I'd forgotten about that.

How Baudrillardian/Ballardian...

Winston*

06-16-2011, 03:09 AM

Does anyone know any good websites for poetry analysis / criticism?

Derek

06-16-2011, 05:32 AM

If I were you, I would've read Precious, the novelization of the movie based on Push by Saphire.

Wow, $6.48 for a book based on the movie based on that same book seems like a steal to me. I really hope it comes with behind-the-scenes pictures of people in the movie reading the book based on the movie based on the book too.

ledfloyd

06-16-2011, 04:46 PM

I find it difficult to want to go back to The Pale King the way I do with Infinite Jest. It really is kind of a bummer, however a beautifully written one. Plus I'm not entirely comfortable with the editing job that Pietsch did. That he did not include the section that was published in The New Yorker as "All That" because it he didn't think it was 'thematically relevant' gives me more than a little bit of pause.

so i finished this last night, and i more or less agree with you. there are passages and ideas in it that are as thought provoking and engaging as anything in infinite jest, but it definitely feels like an unfinished book, and not in the deliberate way his other novels have felt unfinished (perhaps unresolved is a better word here). which reflects on pietsch to a degree; i wonder why he included some of the fragments of chapters that he did, but i also am curious how many fully formed chapters like "All That" fell by the wayside because he wasn't sure how to fit them into the overarching narrative. i read that what he was working with was over 1000 pages arranged in 150 chapters, which almost makes me want to go to austin and look at it and try to piece together my own version of it in my head, but that's just the type of personality i am.

i do want to say i had kind of braced myself after reading several people claiming parts of the novel were very boring, and that that might be the point, that i was never bored while reading it. even the tax stuff, aside from the few chapters that are basically a half page of IRS literature, was contextualized enough that i was consistently interested.

i'm glad i read it, and i enjoyed it, but despite it's brilliance the general unpolished and fragmentary nature of the thing is kind of depressing. because i wish the guy was still around, not just for the selfish reason of having a finished version of the pale king, but the unfinished nature of the novel makes his absence more tangible.

Mara

06-17-2011, 01:11 PM

I'm about two chapters away from finishing Crime and Punishment but I had to return it to the library. So, I'm reading the last bit online, and oddly enough I can't read it without hearing it read in the voice of the narrator from the audiobook. I guess I really liked him.

Meanwhile, my new commuting-book is Silas Marner. I love Eliot, but I've always heard this was kind of a minor work, and so have avoided it. We'll see.

ledfloyd

06-17-2011, 07:11 PM

i've begun the master and margarita. so far so good.

MadMan

06-21-2011, 02:26 AM

Having already seen the movie, reading Fight Club was an interesting experience. Its a rather short book, only 200 some pages, and I took way longer than I should have to finish it. Great novel, though, and I'm looking forward to reading more Chuck Palahniuk-I've already read Invisible Monsters, and I liked it, but at the time I was too young to appreciate his prose or his actual goals in writing such a book. Unsurprisingly I prefer the book to the movie adaption, although I recognize that David Fincher was forced to cut quite a lot to properly bring it to the screen.

Also the ending being different was a completely shock. Part of me is a bigger fan of the movie's ending, but the book's ending is more realistic and a tad creepier and unnerving, to say the least.

Too bad that so many people misread both the movie and the book, but hey that's not much anyone can do about that.

dreamdead

06-21-2011, 03:33 PM

Close to finishing up Updike's Terrorist, his post-9/11 novel examining the psychology of those invested in fundmentalist allegiance to the Quran. Its prose is remarkably uneven, coming off like a caricature of Western perspective about Islamic radicalists. When Updike moves from the young terrorist's perspective to Jewish and more even-keeled characters, though, the book opens up, and raises interesting questions about consumerism and consumption and family generally. So far, though, it's good literature but without any sense of euphoria.

It's my first Updike, and I could see coming back and exploring the Rabbit series at a later point, as I know it's loved on this board...

D_Davis

06-21-2011, 03:37 PM

i've begun the master and margarita. so far so good.

Nice. I'll be reading that this year.

dreamdead

06-21-2011, 07:46 PM

Bah. The ending to John Updike's Terrorist was all kinds of lame. It gets at intriguing material, especially in the middle when Updike likens the American Revolution's tactics to terrorist acts, striking out impulsively and violently, rather than with the accord of traditional warfare. That said, the ending is still trite and ineffective, skirting all kinds of problematic content about intentionality and terrorism.

Also, Jennifer Egan's The Keep is a quick read, but one without any of the abundant pleasures that A Visit from the Good Squad developed. The most interesting aspect about this one is the study of the imagination and how earlier centuries thrived on it precisely because so many of the deadening influences of modern technology had not yet infiltrated the masses. Alas, Egan doesn't know how to end the narrative, and it too ends without answering anything, but without the kind of Pynchonian satisfaction from non-answers...

Back to John Dos Passos's The Big Money, to finish out his U.S.A. trilogy. I'm excited to see how he interrogates socialism here, as the first two volumes in the trilogy were written before he began having reservations and now Dos Passos's prose is beginning to be awash in reflection and mourning.

Lucky

06-22-2011, 01:05 AM

I'm about two chapters away from finishing Crime and Punishment but I had to return it to the library. So, I'm reading the last bit online, and oddly enough I can't read it without hearing it read in the voice of the narrator from the audiobook. I guess I really liked him.

Was this a first or reread? Either way, what's your digest review? It's one of my favorite novels.

Mara

06-22-2011, 02:22 PM

Was this a first or reread? Either way, what's your digest review? It's one of my favorite novels.

It was a first read, and I was blown away. It was much more of a modern novel than Anna Karenina, steeped in atmosphere, psychology, and thundering questions about conventional morality. I loved it, but at the same time felt like it had taken me into its mouth and shaken me like a chew toy.

Svidrigailov was one of the most terrifying characters I've encountered in literature. Complex, finely drawn, and nightmare-inducing. Literally. I had bad dreams about him.

The day after I finished the book I happened to visit my mother, and we had a long conversation about my reaction to it... that's probably why I felt less pressed to react online.

Mara

06-22-2011, 02:34 PM

On a completely different note, I just read The Thirteenth Tale by Diane Setterfield, and I think I actually quite enjoyed it. Considering that my book group has consistently chosen really stupid books, I was surprised.

It's hard to judge the book on conventional terms, since it indulges unabashedly in the codes and mores of 19th-century gothic literature. It name checks Jane Eyre, The Woman in White, etc. constantly. Therefore, calling it over-the-top seems a little redundant. I sort of admire it for how gung-ho it is about including dilapidated mansions, sado-masochistic incest, crazy beautiful old ladies, abandoned babies, ghosts, mysterious bastard children, etc. It even has good twin/evil twins and governesses.

I mean, really?

But... it's totally fun. It's a pulp novel for the literary set.

Even within the confines of its own rule-book, it does make missteps. There's a certain amount of informed brilliance-- writers, characters, situations are repeatedly described as being excellent and clever, when the prose doesn't carry out the promise-- and sometimes plot points are described multiple times from different perspectives without adding anything new to the plot.

Also, the writer very stubbornly refuses to include a timeline for the story. It's unclear when it is being written, and when the flashbacks are taking place. I guess she wanted a sort of fairy-tale any-time feeling, but it's actually annoying to divorce the story from some real-world historical context.

Still, I find myself sort of wanting to recommend it.

Lucky

06-22-2011, 06:33 PM

During our senior english class in highschool we had a mock trial after finishing C&P where we each took a character from the novel as a witness (even though some were dead). Some of us played attorneys and there were two court psychologists - one defense and one for the prosecution. I got the part of defense psychologist and argued for Rodya being diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. The case obviously wasn't about whether Rodya was guilty or not, but over whether or not he was mentally ill.

ledfloyd

06-22-2011, 07:48 PM

i need to read crime and punishment again sometime. i read it in high school and to this day i'm not sure another book has had such an impact on me.

Winston*

06-23-2011, 11:23 PM

Finished Jane Eyre. Is the moral of this novel that:

Happiness can only be achieved upon the death of the mentally disabled?

Mara

06-23-2011, 11:27 PM

Finished Jane Eyre. Is the moral of this novel that:

Happiness can only be achieved upon the death of the mentally disabled?

:lol:

No, that's just a bonus.

I wrote my senior thesis on Bertha Mason.

Winston*

06-23-2011, 11:31 PM

I liked the novel quite a bit btw. Especially the first two parts.

ledfloyd

06-23-2011, 11:45 PM

finished book 1 of the master and margarita. going to take a quick braek and finish the last third of nabokov's autobiography so i can get it back to the library and then finish the bulgakov up. so far, i can't say KFan's effusive praise was in any way excessive.

amberlita

06-24-2011, 12:56 AM

Saw this, erm, children's book, at Borders today and nearly died laughing...

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/8725/img0726iy.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3039/img0727hz.jpg

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/5220/img0728u.jpg

It's also free at Audible.com and, appropriately, narrated by Sam Jackson.

kuehnepips

06-24-2011, 08:59 AM

Thanks Dr. Lita, just made my day, :lol:

Irish

06-24-2011, 10:59 AM

It's also free at Audible.com and, appropriately, narrated by Sam Jackson.

There's also a version floating around read by Werner Herzog.

Mysterious Dude

06-25-2011, 12:30 PM

Brent Bozell is outraged! (http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/20110624/cm_uc_crbbox/op_2318406)

Qrazy

06-27-2011, 04:22 PM

Read The Road. Wasn't impressed.

ledfloyd

06-27-2011, 04:34 PM

since my reading has been dismal this year (after i finish the two books i'm currently in the middle of i will have read a grand total of 7 books, 3 of them rereads) i'm setting myself some goals for things i'd like to get to between now and the end of the year.

Anna Karenina
Letters to a Young Poet
Madame Bovary
Sentimental Education
Candide
Eugene Onegin
A Game of Thrones
Bleak House
The Brothers Karamazov
Blood Meridian

hopefully supplanted by some unplanned readings.

i plan on reading the pevear/volokhonsky translations of the tolstoy and dostoevsky but outside of that any suggestions are welcomed. particularly for onegin, since there doesn't seem to be any definitive translation and the opinions are rather varied.

Melville

06-27-2011, 05:01 PM

i plan on reading the pevear/volokhonsky translations of the tolstoy and dostoevsky but outside of that any suggestions are welcomed. particularly for onegin, since there doesn't seem to be any definitive translation and the opinions are rather varied.
I loved the version I read, translated by Charles Johnston, but I haven't read any others to compare it to. It's available online if you want to get a feel for it: http://lib.ru/LITRA/PUSHKIN/ENGLISH/onegin_j.txt
Wikipedia suggests that the Falen translation is considered the most faithful.

ledfloyd

06-27-2011, 06:29 PM

I loved the version I read, translated by Charles Johnston, but I haven't read any others to compare it to. It's available online if you want to get a feel for it: http://lib.ru/LITRA/PUSHKIN/ENGLISH/onegin_j.txt
Wikipedia suggests that the Falen translation is considered the most faithful.
yeah, i had read the bit on there about the controversy with the ardnt and nabokov translations. it seems like the johnston and falen translations might be a nice happy medium between the two.

Mara

06-28-2011, 01:46 PM

Oh, I finished Silas Marner. It was okay. It felt very much like a minor work, or something written for children. Eliot's regular obsessions were there but her intense plotting and characterizations were simplified.

Now on to Howard's End, which I've never read, despite being a big Forster fan. I've seen the film, of course.

My favorite Forster is A Passage to India. When I was reading it for the first time in college, I was also taking a class in stylistics. I mentioned in the class that a different professor had told me "E. M. Forster never wrote a bad sentence."

My stylistics teacher took my copy of A Passage to India, opened it randomly and wrote a sentence from it on the board. Then, as a class, we spent the next hour analyzing it. Our consensus was that, indeed, it was a beautiful sentence.

I can still remember it exactly. (I mean, I spent an hour on it.)

"They exchanged the usual drinks, but everything tasted different, and then they looked out at the palisade of cactuses stabbing the purple throat of the sky; they realized that they were thousands of miles from any scenery that they understood."

We had to check the dictionary to make sure that cactus could be pluralized as "cactuses" (it can) and had a heated discussion on why things tasted "different" instead of "differently."

D_Davis

06-28-2011, 02:38 PM

Going to start this soon:

http://img1.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/x0/x494.jpg

It's been awhile since I've read non-fiction, and this sounds amazing. As a part-time resident of Madison County, Wellman became the unofficial historian of the area, and in this book he writes about the many legends, folktales, places, and people of this small, rural city.

Tucked away among the ancient and rugged mountains of Western North Carolina, Madison County-sometimes called "the Kingdom of Madison" by its older citizens-is one of the most misunderstood and least-appreciated counties in the entire state. Until only recently, hard to get into and out of, it has been a genuinely isolated area, blurred in the attention of even neighboring counties. Partially because of this isolation the rest of North Carolina and the world has tended to lose sight of the unique history and folkways of this area and the vigorous, self-reliant, and proud men and women who have lived there since the frontier period of the 1770s. In this lively and fascinating book one of North Carolina's greatest ever writers redresses this myopic imbalance and introduces us to the real Madison County. In doing so he makes us realize that much of what has been written or said about the county or its people is rumor or, at best, exaggeration. As a part-time resident for decades of summers, Manly Wade Wellman came to know Madison intimately. He knew banjo-pickers and lawyers, blockaders (called moonshiners by outsiders) and preachers, and he heard many stories, legendary and true, of the mountain people.

He has roamed the mountains-Sandy Mush, Sugarloaf Knob, Max Patch, Bluff and Hurricane--and forded the creeks--Spillcorn and Sprinkle and Shut-in, Bull and Bear and Turkey and Doe, Puncheon Fork and Crooked Branch, Big Pine and Little Pine, and has stood on the banks of the rushing, rock-filled French Broad River. He makes this chronicle of the Kingdom of Madison sing in a way that resonates the heartstrings and does these proud people well

Wellman is so criminally under-read these days.

elixir

06-28-2011, 08:41 PM

Franny and Zooey was amazing. I loved it as much as I love The Catcher in the Rye, my favorite book ever, so, yeah, this one hit me hard. It's been awhile since a book has swept me up and I've been unable to put it down. Just blew me away.

Irish

06-28-2011, 08:46 PM

Franny and Zooey was amazing. I loved it as much as I love The Catcher in the Rye, my favorite book ever, so, yeah, this one hit me hard.

For my money, Franny is far and away the best thing Salinger ever wrote.

I liked Zooey when I first read it, but man lately, I dunno. Zooey (the character) bugs the hell out of me.

Mara

06-28-2011, 10:14 PM

Franny and Zooey was my grandmother's all-time favorite book, and I think is my sister's as well.

But... for me... it comes down as good, not great. I don't know why it doesn't speak to me the way it seems to do with other people.

For my money, A Perfect Day for Banana Fish and For Esme, with Love and Squalor are Salinger's best. The man is an extraordinary wordsmith.

Marley

06-29-2011, 02:35 AM

For my money, Franny is far and away the best thing Salinger ever wrote.

I liked Zooey when I first read it, but man lately, I dunno. Zooey (the character) bugs the hell out of me.

Emoooooooooooooo. :lol:

Irish

06-29-2011, 02:50 AM

Emoooooooooooooo. :lol:

:lol: Emo?! What?!!!!!!

Raiders

06-29-2011, 03:17 PM

It's a rare, rare thing indeed... but I agree with Irish.

Marley

06-29-2011, 03:58 PM

:lol: Emo?! What?!!!!!!

Or maybe I am confusing Franny with Zooey. I think she was the one who was emooo and he was the pretentious, pompous one. Nevertheless, I still loved the book.

Raiders

06-29-2011, 05:52 PM

Reading this now. Already can tell it is going to be wonderful.

Almost done with Salter's Light Years. Wonderful prose, but I have never really become terribly invested in any of it. There are excerpts where the characters feel very resonant (Viri's dreaming of Kaya, Nedra's often cruel frankness) but many stretches just kind of coast along on wistful sadness. I realize that a lot of the book is specifically about the surfaces that people talk about and worry about (beauty being chief among them) and that it is only after a long while Salter's little details really sink in, but nothing of any great weight has taken root for me. Also, a lot of the characters that round out the novel exist as counterbalances and sounding boards, but they never really come to life for me and half the time I struggle to keep their names straight.

Still, let it not be said that Salter is anything but a first-class sculptor of dialogue and descriptions.

Mysterious Dude

07-01-2011, 06:38 PM

I'm about 100 pages from the end of Absalom, Absalom!. One of the more annoying things about it is Faulkner's use of parentheses. Sometimes they'll have so much in them that I'll reach the ) and will have completely forgotten that I was reading something in parentheses. Other times he'll use it to modify a pronoun, when he could just as easily have replaced the pronoun with the name itself:

Then one day Lee sent Johnston some reinforcements from one of his corps and Grandfather found out that the Twenty-third Mississippi was one of the regiments. And he (Grandfather) didn't know what had happened: whether Sutpen had found out in some way that Henry had at last coerced his conscience into agreeing with his as his (Henry's) father had done thirty years ago, whether Judith perhaps had written her father that she had heard from Bon at last and what she and Bon intended to do, or if the four of them had just reached as one person that point where something had to be done, had to happen, he (Grandfather) didn't know.

Now just what in the hell is wrong with saying, "And Grandfather didn't know what had happened"?

Marley

07-03-2011, 12:28 AM

I'm about 100 pages from the end of Absalom, Absalom!. One of the more annoying things about it is Faulkner's use of parentheses. Sometimes they'll have so much in them that I'll reach the ) and will have completely forgotten that I was reading something in parentheses. Other times he'll use it to modify a pronoun, when he could just as easily have replaced the pronoun with the name itself:

Now just what in the hell is wrong with saying, "And Grandfather didn't know what had happened"?

Because that would be considered a far too pedestrian sentence for Faulkner; the man prides himself on his flowery syntax. Ugh, I'll never get the love for this author. I was actually considering to take a course next semester called "the novel up to 1960" but after discovering that the syllabus includes this novel, I decided to take Chaucer instead. I'll gladly take ye old English than suffer through another work by Faulkner.

Raiders

07-03-2011, 01:34 AM

I haven't read the book, but isn't it basically one long quotation told from a few viewpoints? The paragraph above reads like a stream of thought, quick-paced narration with parentheses for clarity.

Melville

07-03-2011, 02:22 AM

Because that would be considered a far too pedestrian sentence for Faulkner; the man prides himself on his flowery syntax.
:|

Faulkner used a wide range of styles, including quite simple ones (e.g., the Jason section of The Sound and the Fury and some of his short stories). And he used those differing styles very purposefully. Absalom, Absalom! is probably his most ornate, but that ornateness accomplishes the book's goals: it creates a feeling of dense, murky, grotesquely contorted history inescapable like tar. At the same time, it's being narrated specifically by people, and things like the parenthetical names help create the feeling of a rush of thoughts being clarified on the fly. The purpose of the stylization may not be as clear as in something like The Sound and the Fury, where the different styles capture the narrators' personalities and their modes of being in time, but it's obviously not just Faulkner using convoluted syntax for no reason.

Mysterious Dude

07-03-2011, 02:34 AM

I haven't read the book, but isn't it basically one long quotation told from a few viewpoints?Yes, and when I adapt it into a movie, it will be nothing but four actors sitting around giving monologues for ten hours.

I'm not ready to give up on Faulkner yet. As Melville said, he used a variety of styles, and this one was quite different from the other two I've read, The Sound and the Fury and As I Lay Dying, both of which I liked a lot more than Absalom. But this one has been a chore.

Kurosawa Fan

07-03-2011, 02:39 AM

Because that would be considered a far too pedestrian sentence for Faulkner; the man prides himself on his flowery syntax. Ugh, I'll never get the love for this author... suffer through another work by Faulkner.

Read Light in August and tell me he's forcing flowery syntax. This statement reads like someone who read one or two of his works and brushed him off.

Melville

07-03-2011, 02:41 AM

The Sound and the Fury and As I Lay Dying, both of which I liked a lot more than Absalom.
Yeah, nothing else I've read by him has matched the awesomeness of those first two.

Marley

07-03-2011, 04:41 AM

Read Light in August and tell me he's forcing flowery syntax. This statement reads like someone who read one or two of his works and brushed him off.

I've read The Sound and the Fury along withAs I Lay Dying and despised them both. I understand that his style is meant to reflect the context of the narrative but personally, I just found it grating and downright ostentatious. But hey, that's just me. Perhaps I was a bit hasty to dismiss Faulkner as an author since I haven't read everything in his oeuvre but his style of writing just doesn't suit my literary interests. I appreciate him within a historical context but he's just not for me. If my memory serves me correctly, I do remember enjoying A Rose for Emily after reading it for a short-story class years ago.

Kurosawa Fan

07-03-2011, 04:43 AM

Marley

07-03-2011, 04:50 AM

:|

Faulkner used a wide range of styles, including quite simple ones (e.g., the Jason section of The Sound and the Fury and some of his short stories). And he used those differing styles very purposefully. Absalom, Absalom! is probably his most ornate, but that ornateness accomplishes the book's goals: it creates a feeling of dense, murky, grotesquely contorted history inescapable like tar. At the same time, it's being narrated specifically by people, and things like the parenthetical names help create the feeling of a rush of thoughts being clarified on the fly. The purpose of the stylization may not be as clear as in something like The Sound and the Fury, where the different styles capture the narrators' personalities and their modes of being in time, but it's obviously not just Faulkner using convoluted syntax for no reason.

That makes sense, well said. I should have considered the narrative context but after being severely perturbed by Sound and the Fury and As I Lay Dying, Faulkner just doesn't seem the type of author I can ever grow to love. Granted, there were parts of the former that I loved (Benjy's section) and others where I wanted to bang my head against a wall (Quentin, obviously). I'm all for subtlety but with Faulkner, half the time I don't fully understand the subtext. Perhaps a closer literary analysis would help me appreciate his works more.

Marley

07-03-2011, 04:53 AM

Seriously, the next time you're in a bookstore, pick up Light in August, even if it's just to page through it. It's a departure from the style Faulkner employed in the other two of his novels you read. It's a much more straight-forward, accessible read.

You make a convincing argument. Perhaps I'll give Faulkner another chance before writing him off completely. :lol:

Hugh_Grant

07-03-2011, 10:57 AM

I've read The Sound and the Fury along withAs I Lay Dying and despised them both. I understand that his style is meant to reflect the context of the narrative but personally, I just found it grating and downright ostentatious. But hey, that's just me. Perhaps I was a bit hasty to dismiss Faulkner as an author since I haven't read everything in his oeuvre but his style of writing just doesn't suit my literary interests. I appreciate him within a historical context but he's just not for me. If my memory serves me correctly, I do remember enjoying A Rose for Emily after reading it for a short-story class years ago.

I agree with everything in this post.

Mysterious Dude

07-03-2011, 12:34 PM

I don't think it's wrong to brush off an author after two books. I did that to Hemingway. If you're not into the author, why torture yourself by reading anything more than that? There are plenty of other authors to read.

Mara

07-03-2011, 06:01 PM

I think two books is fair to give an author. If you don't click after that, it's probably not meant to be.

Raiders

07-03-2011, 06:43 PM

Two books are all Murakami and Philip Roth are getting from me.

D_Davis

07-03-2011, 08:45 PM

My favorite Faulkner quote:

“What a commentary. In France I am the father of a literary movement. In Europe I am considered the best modern American, and among the first of all writers. In America, I eke out a hack’s motion picture wages by winning second prize in a manufactured mystery story contest.”

He said this after losing mystery story contest to Manly Wade Wellman. What a baby.

Anyhow, I think two books is enough to give an author. Big deal - so you don't like Faulkner. Lord knows there a hundreds of other authors and books to love.

Derek

07-03-2011, 09:10 PM

My favorite Faulkner quote:

Of everything to choose from, that's your favorite? I know the guy didn't write your precious genre fiction, but it seems kinda ridiculous to point out his bitterness at not being beloved in his own country as if that somehow makes him a pretentious phony. I'm pretty sure like 90% of all the writers who've ever lived were bitter and felt under-appreciated. It's like chiding a musician for doing drugs.

Raiders

07-03-2011, 09:13 PM

Of everything to choose from, that's your favorite? I know the guy didn't write your precious genre fiction, but it seems kinda ridiculous to point out his bitterness at not being beloved in his own country as if that somehow makes him a pretentious phony. I'm pretty sure like 90% of all the writers who've ever lived were bitter and felt under-appreciated. It's like chiding a musician for doing drugs.

Judging by the tone of this post, I see why you sympathize with Faulkner's bitterness.

Derek

07-04-2011, 12:57 AM

Judging by the tone of this post, I see why you sympathize with Faulkner's bitterness.

*sigh*

No, you're right, Raiders. That was a good choice for Faulkner's best quote.

EDIT: Also, the irony of calling out someone for sounding "bitter" in a dickish way is not lost on me. Solid modding there. :)

Irish

07-04-2011, 01:37 AM

Mysterious Dude

07-04-2011, 03:05 AM

Just out of curiousity, which two?
The Old Man and the Sea and A Farewell to Arms. If I may amend my statement, I can see myself reading Hemingway again, but he's a very low priority. It won't be this year.

Derek

07-04-2011, 03:37 AM

The Old Man and the Sea and A Farewell to Arms. If I may amend my statement, I can see myself reading Hemingway again, but he's a very low priority. It won't be this year.

Was it the content you didn't care for? His direct, economical prose seems right up your alley. I'm not a big fan of him either, aside from Old Man and the Sea.

Winston*

07-04-2011, 08:10 AM

Read Thornton Wilder's The Bridge of San Luis Rey. I wonder if this is where Alejandro Inarritu and Guillermo Arriaga got their movie structure from.

Mysterious Dude

07-04-2011, 11:30 AM

Was it the content you didn't care for? His direct, economical prose seems right up your alley. I would've thought so, too. I have liked his short stories, but it got really annoying in large doses. A Farewell to Arms has so much mundane conversation that it's almost trying to be boring. The Old Man and the Sea actually wasn't that bad.

Marley

07-04-2011, 03:52 PM

I would've thought so, too. I have liked his short stories, but it got really annoying in large doses. A Farewell to Arms has so much mundane conversation that it's almost trying to be boring. The Old Man and the Sea actually wasn't that bad.

This.

I much prefer Hemmingway's short stories and Snows of Kilimanjaro contains some of my favorites in this form although its a shame "Hills like White Elephants" is not included in the collection. A Farewell to Arms is the only novel of his that I have read by him and I disliked it even more than Faulkner's works. The Sound and the Fury is like the holy grail of literature in comparison.

Irish

07-04-2011, 04:01 PM

The Old Man and the Sea and A Farewell to Arms. If I may amend my statement, I can see myself reading Hemingway again, but he's a very low priority. It won't be this year.

Ugh. Sounds like required high school reading. Old Man is awful, and I think Farewell can be a bad book if you read it too soon.

Glad to hear you like the stories. I've long thought Hem was a better short story writer than he was a novelist.

D_Davis

07-05-2011, 01:03 AM

After the latest Howard I'm reading, I think it's time for a little break from genre fiction with some Muriel Spark. She's like my non-genre mistress; my lady of prose.

Marley

07-05-2011, 03:57 AM

After the latest Howard I'm reading, I think it's time for a little break from genre fiction with some Muriel Spark. She's like my non-genre mistress; my lady of prose.

Hells yeah, I adore her writing as well. Which one are you going to choose?
I still need to read Driver's Seat on your recommendation.

D_Davis

07-05-2011, 05:02 AM

Hells yeah, I adore her writing as well. Which one are you going to choose?
I still need to read Driver's Seat on your recommendation.

Not sure yet. Either Momento Mori, or The Comforters - her first novel.

Melville

07-05-2011, 03:16 PM

elixir

07-05-2011, 06:43 PM

The Old Man and the Sea is great. How can you dislike a book with lines like this?

"'Fish,' he said, 'I love you and respect you very much. But I will kill you dead before this day ends.'"

I liked A Farewell to Arms a lot too, mostly for the nihilistic ending.

I hate that ending so much. Probably because I hated everything that came before it as well. I like The Sun Also Rises though.

elixir

07-05-2011, 07:00 PM

Read The Diary of Anne Frank. Good stuff there.

Onto John Coetzee's Summertime...still in the middle of it right now, and I like the structure, but sometimes the characters themselves seem to writerly and it feels artificial (and not in an enlightening way, in an awkward way).

Mara

07-05-2011, 07:26 PM

Read The Diary of Anne Frank. Good stuff there.

Did you read the unexpurgated version? It's like a completely different book.

elixir

07-05-2011, 07:41 PM

Did you read the unexpurgated version? It's like a completely different book.

I read this (http://www.amazon.com/Anne-Frank-Diary-Young-Girl/dp/0553296981) version.

Mara

07-05-2011, 08:08 PM

I read this (http://www.amazon.com/Anne-Frank-Diary-Young-Girl/dp/0553296981) version.

That's the original. They published a new translation in the mid-nineties that included a bunch of text her father took out when he originally translated it. In my opinion, it humanizes Anne quite a bit, since he (understandably) cut out things that might make her look bad: her anger, sarcasm, frustration, and emerging sexuality.

But with the text intact, I actually find her a more intriguing person.

I have nothing against the original-- it's a classic-- but I found the re-translation quite eye-opening.

elixir

07-05-2011, 08:12 PM

That's the original. They published a new translation in the mid-nineties that included a bunch of text her father took out when he originally translated it. In my opinion, it humanizes Anne quite a bit, since he (understandably) cut out things that might make her look bad: her anger, sarcasm, frustration, and emerging sexuality.

But with the text intact, I actually find her a more intriguing person.

I have nothing against the original-- it's a classic-- but I found the re-translation quite eye-opening.

Well, that was all certainly there in the original, so I guess it was just more upfront in the reedited version...which makes sense. The most I sensed where the father took out was in regards to her relationship with Peter/her sexuality--there was definitely some of it in my version, but it felt like there were pieces missing there. I'd definitely be interested to read the re-translation.

Milky Joe

07-06-2011, 02:33 AM

Harold Bloom on David Foster Wallace: (http://www.wwd.com/eyescoop/eye/the-full-bloom-3592315/)

Asked about novelist David Foster Wallace, who took his own life in 2008, but who has a new book out, “The Pale King: An Unfinished Novel,” put together from manuscript chapters and files found in his computer, Bloom says, “You know, I don’t want to be offensive. But ‘Infinite Jest’ [regarded by many as Wallace’s masterpiece] is just awful. It seems ridiculous to have to say it. He can’t think, he can’t write. There’s no discernible talent.”

It’s all a clear indication, Bloom notes, of the decline of literary standards. He was upset in 2003 when the National Book Award gave a special award to Stephen King. “But Stephen King is Cervantes compared with David Foster Wallace. We have no standards left. [Wallace] seems to have been a very sincere and troubled person, but that doesn’t mean I have to endure reading him. I even resented the use of the term from Shakespeare, when Hamlet calls the king’s jester Yorick, ‘a fellow of infinite jest.’

:frustrated:

Irish

07-06-2011, 03:03 AM

The Old Man and the Sea is great. How can you dislike a book with lines like this?

Because lines like that make Ernie sound like he's parodying himself.

ledfloyd

07-06-2011, 04:09 AM

Harold Bloom on David Foster Wallace: (http://www.wwd.com/eyescoop/eye/the-full-bloom-3592315/)

:frustrated:
worse than stephen king? come the fuck on.

Kurosawa Fan

07-06-2011, 01:14 PM

I can't stand Harold Bloom. He served a great purpose once, but age and arrogance has reduced his work to caricatures of critiques. It's best to ignore him until he finally goes away.

D_Davis

07-06-2011, 02:30 PM

Stephen King is awesome, so saying someone is worse than him doesn't make a lick of sense. Any author would be lucky to have had the same successful career as a professional writer.

D_Davis

07-06-2011, 02:38 PM

I picked this up last night at a used store for only $25:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vRa5nuViL._SS400_.jpg

In almost perfect condition. I'm stoked. Going to read it this year.

Milky Joe

07-06-2011, 09:40 PM

Stephen King is awesome, so saying someone is worse than him doesn't make a lick of sense. Any author would be lucky to have had the same successful career as a professional writer.

The funny thing is, Wallace was a big reader and admirer of Stephen King. He even put The Stand on a top 10 list he did for some magazine, and it's easy to see how it was an influence on Infinite Jest.

Here's the list. (toptenbooks.net/blog/2007/03/is-david-foster-wallace-serious.html) Amusing that a simple list from the guy has to be turned into some meta-post-modern commentary by readers who can't believe that he just actually loves those books.

D_Davis

07-06-2011, 10:00 PM

The funny thing is, Wallace was a big reader and admirer of Stephen King. He even put The Stand on a top 10 list he did for some magazine, and it's easy to see how it was an influence on Infinite Jest.

Here's the list. (http://toptenbooks.net/blog/2007/03/is-david-foster-wallace-serious.html) Amusing that a simple list from the guy has to be turned into some meta-post-modern commentary by readers who can't believe that he just actually loves those books.

Looks like he simply valued great story telling, which, in my estimation, is the most admirable part of fiction; everything else is secondary, or an added bonus.

Irish

07-06-2011, 10:21 PM

Two books by Thomas Harris? That has to be a joke.

Reading the rest of that article is interesting though, especially the bits where Wallace talks about his influences in interviews and fiction's power to make you feel "human and unalone."

D_Davis

07-06-2011, 10:25 PM

Bloom, like the RIAA and the MPPA, is from the old school, and is desperately trying to hold on to what little influence he has left. People and group like him are conservative to the extreme; they hate change because it exposes their industries for what they are - dinosaurs unfit for the modern age.

Things change. Get over it. Die with dignity.

Milky Joe

07-06-2011, 10:29 PM

Two books by Thomas Harris? That has to be a joke.

He taught Harris's books in his undergrad fiction courses. Not a joke, though, as the article points out, not all-encompassing of his literary tastes (probably all of Delillo's corpus would be on there if it was) either.

ThePlashyBubbler

07-10-2011, 06:14 AM

Anybody else getting psyched for A Dance with Dragons on Tuesday?

D_Davis

07-10-2011, 05:14 PM

Up next...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_crD9r6Q-h-Q/S-cmeKmsdsI/AAAAAAAAAWQ/t6-UEpmDeHg/s1600/the+comforters.jpg

dreamdead

07-10-2011, 08:54 PM

In preparation for a 5-day camping trip starting Saturday, I grabbed these from the library.

Under the Dome, Stephen King
Great House, Nicole Krauss
A Gesture Life, Chang-rae Lee
City of God, E.L. Doctorow

I'm already about 150 pages into the King, so I'm hoping to finish that one off first.

Marley

07-11-2011, 12:19 AM

Anybody else getting psyched for A Dance with Dragons on Tuesday?

Woah, I had no idea it was coming out so soon! Then again, I still need to finish reading Book #3 and #4 but this is wonderful news! :pritch:

kuehnepips

07-11-2011, 07:03 AM

Anybody else getting psyched for A Dance with Dragons on Tuesday?

And how!

D_Davis

07-11-2011, 03:54 PM

This is a really well written and thoughtful review of The Comforters. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jul/18/the-comforters-muriel-spark)

Still can't believe I didn't discover Spark until a couple of years ago. My College lit classes totally failed me. For the life of me I can't fathom why she is not insanely popular.

romantisaurusrex

07-11-2011, 04:57 PM

I can't stand Harold Bloom. He served a great purpose once, but age and arrogance has reduced his work to caricatures of critiques. It's best to ignore him until he finally goes away.

I see you're reading Mill on the Floss, did Mara make you pick it up? It is probably in my top 5 ever.

romantisaurusrex

07-11-2011, 05:00 PM

Right now I'm reading:

Although of Course You End Up Becoming Yourself, which is a transcript of a few days of conversation with David Foster Wallace
http://somecamerunning.typepad.com/.a/6a00e5523026f588340133ee47c421 970b-800wi
and

The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James

Mara

07-11-2011, 05:07 PM

I see you're reading Mill on the Floss, did Mara make you pick it up? It is probably in my top 5 ever.

Actually, I don't think I did. It's not even my favorite Eliot (that's Middlemarch) but I did like it.

It's mom's favorite book of all time.

Kurosawa Fan

07-11-2011, 05:09 PM

I see you're reading Mill on the Floss, did Mara make you pick it up? It is probably in my top 5 ever.

Nope, another recommendation. I'm a little more than halfway through and like it a lot. I had to take an extended break because of my spring semester, but I skimmed the first 300 pages this weekend to refresh myself and continued with it yesterday. I'm reserving comment until I finish it.

Mara

07-11-2011, 05:11 PM

Benny Profane

07-11-2011, 05:36 PM

Almost done with Salter's Light Years. Wonderful prose, but I have never really become terribly invested in any of it. There are excerpts where the characters feel very resonant (Viri's dreaming of Kaya, Nedra's often cruel frankness) but many stretches just kind of coast along on wistful sadness. I realize that a lot of the book is specifically about the surfaces that people talk about and worry about (beauty being chief among them) and that it is only after a long while Salter's little details really sink in, but nothing of any great weight has taken root for me. Also, a lot of the characters that round out the novel exist as counterbalances and sounding boards, but they never really come to life for me and half the time I struggle to keep their names straight.

Still, let it not be said that Salter is anything but a first-class sculptor of dialogue and descriptions.

I see what you're saying in bold but my reaction was the opposite. I found the entire thing to be precise and poignant, but not exaggerated. It just had tremendous impact. Anyway, glad you thought he was a top-notch writer. That, obviously, is also why I loved it so much.

Marley

07-11-2011, 05:40 PM

By the way, I'm a day or so away from finishing Howards End and I'm really, really loving it. I'll save a full analysis until I finish, but I found it more richly textured than I expected, and MAY I JUST SAY that Forster was generations ahead of his time. What a genius.

Odd, I just started reading this yesterday. So far, the novel's treatment of relationships in terms of social decorum seems anachronistic and yet, there is something genuine and profound in the way Forster explores this subject matter that would otherwise appear as trite. Looking forward to reading more today.

Mara

07-11-2011, 05:46 PM

Odd, I just started reading this yesterday. So far, the novel's treatment of relationships in terms of social decorum seems anachronistic and yet, there is something genuine and profound in the way Forster explores this subject matter that would otherwise appear as trite. Looking forward to reading more today.

Well, it was written a century ago. Forster has a way of noting the social conventions of the time, but then looking beyond them with a compassion and sensitivity that is unique and surprising.

Mara

07-11-2011, 05:59 PM

In fact, Forster is nonjudgmental to the point of being infuriating, sometimes.

Point of note: repeatedly, throughout the novel, instead of standing up for "rights," women who are strong-minded and assertive choose to manipulate their husbands by quiet, meek methods to get their way. This is seen as, of all things, an act of compassion. Men are so fragile. It is so much easier for them to think their wives fools than to shatter their worldview.

Now, having seen the film, I'm pretty sure one of the men is shortly to get his world deeply shattered when his wife finally stands up for herself.

But, in the meantime, the reader is screaming, "STAND UP FOR YOURSELF, WOMAN!" and Forster is saying, "You cannot judge an act of love."

Irish

07-11-2011, 06:06 PM

Right now I'm reading: Although of Course You End Up Becoming Yourself

How is this? I've heard mixed things.

romantisaurusrex

07-11-2011, 07:54 PM

Actually, I don't think I did. It's not even my favorite Eliot (that's Middlemarch) but I did like it.

It's mom's favorite book of all time.

I know. I read it with her once as she foamed at the mouth the whole time. I think it took us less time to read Middlemarch outloud because of all the "Just..just..just..oh can we just read that sentence again?"ing we had to do during MOTF.

Nope, another recommendation. I'm a little more than halfway through and like it a lot. I had to take an extended break because of my spring semester, but I skimmed the first 300 pages this weekend to refresh myself and continued with it yesterday. I'm reserving comment until I finish it.

Cool, let us know what you think when you're done. In my opinion, Maggie Tulliver is one of the most multifaceted and captivating fictional characters that I am familiar with.

romantisaurusrex

07-11-2011, 08:00 PM

How is this? I've heard mixed things.

It is 90% only interesting if you personally find DFW to be terribly interesting and 10% valuable no matter who you are. I happen to be in the category that is fascinated by the ramblings of DFW's mind, but if you're not you probably don't want to wade through it to get to the really good stuff (his philosophy, mostly).

My favorite bit was at one point he was talking about how when the internet first came out everyone thought it was going to make things less institutionalized and more democratic with information freely flowing as opposed to being filtered through the media, but he says the opposite is happening:
"I tell you, there's not single more interesting time to be alive on the planet Earth than in the next 20 years. It's gonna be-- you're gonna get to watch all of human history played out again real quickly. If you go back to Hobbes, and why we ended up begging, why people in a state of nature end up begging for a ruler who has the power of life and death over them? We absolutely have to give our power away. The Internet is going to be exactly the same way. Unless there are walls and sites and gatekeepers that say, 'All right, you want fairly good fiction on the Web? Let us pick it for you.' Because it's gonna take you four days to find something any good, through all the shit that's gonna come, right? So we're going to beg for it. We are literally gonna pay for it. But once we do that, the all these democratic hoo-hah dreams of the Internet will of course have gone down the pipes. And we're back again to three or four Hollywood studios, or publishing houses being the...the...right? And all of us who grouse, all the anarchists who grouse about power being localized in these media elites, are gonna realize that the actual system dictates that. The same way-- I'm absolutely convinced-- that the despot in Hobbes is a logical extension of what the state of nature is."

Irish

07-11-2011, 08:07 PM

It is 90% only interesting if you personally find DFW to be terribly interesting and 10% valuable no matter who you are. I happen to be in the category that is fascinated by the ramblings of DFW's mind, but if you're not you probably don't want to wade through it to get to the really good stuff (his philosophy, mostly).

Great to know. I've dug him ever since seeing the Charlie Rose interview (http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/5639).

romantisaurusrex

07-11-2011, 08:32 PM

Great to know. I've dug him ever since seeing the Charlie Rose interview (http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/5639).

Thanks-- I'd never seen that before. Any time I see an interview of him I have the urge to console him and scold the interviewer.

D_Davis

07-11-2011, 09:15 PM

Marley

07-11-2011, 09:21 PM

Well, it was written a century ago. Forster has a way of noting the social conventions of the time, but then looking beyond them with a compassion and sensitivity that is unique and surprising.

Well put, this was essentially what I was getting at in my earlier post. One must take into consideration the historical context of the novel but Forster's portrayal of human emotions and relationships still rings true. I'm finding this Leonard Bast to be an endearing and relatable character right now.

Marley

07-11-2011, 09:31 PM

Man - I wish other authors had hired Murial Spark to write their dialog. She and William Peter Blatty are the absolute masters of witty banter that doesn't sound contrived and forced. She had an uncanny ability to characterize her characters through the words they spoke and the way they talked. I can hear their individual voices in my head, and I'd bet just about anything that I am hearing exactly the voice that Spark want's me to hear. So amazing.

I remember the New York Times review of a Blatty book that said, "Nobody can write funnier lines than William Peter Blatty." I need to find out what they said about Sparks. Because she's up there.

Having only read one novel by each of these authors, I still completely agree with your comparison. The narrative of "The Ninth Configuration" is mostly driven by dialogue and not the kind that is full of pointless exposition; rather, it serves to shape the characters and build the story as opposed to being "forced" and "contrived" as you put it. With "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie", Spark possesses the uncanny ability to write such witty dialogue that is complex and profound as much as it is enrapturing to behold.

ledfloyd

07-11-2011, 09:34 PM

i should read that forster novel. i'm a big fan of zadie smith's 'on beauty' which is inspired by it.

i've started madame bovary. i was kind of overwhelmed by the sheer amount of stuff that happens in the first 30 pages, but once the wedding occurs it slows down considerably, so i guess that was just table setting. i'm enjoying it quite a bit but i'm not blown away, yet.

it could just be that i'm coming off the heels of reading the master and margarita, which did blow me away. i don't know if i agree with KF that it's a top five book, but it certainly wouldn't be outside my top ten.

D_Davis

07-11-2011, 09:40 PM

Having only read one novel by each of these authors, I still completely agree with your comparison. The narrative of "The Ninth Configuration" is mostly driven by dialogue and not the kind that is full of pointless exposition; rather, it serves to shape the characters and build the story as opposed to being "forced" and "contrived" as you put it. With "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie", Spark possesses the uncanny ability to write such witty dialogue that is complex and profound as much as it is enrapturing to behold.

Yep. Both Spark and Blatty use dialog to propel the plots of their narratives, but they are careful to avoid infodumping. That's why Blatty is such a great screenwriter. I'm surprised that Spark didn't try her hand at screenwriting. She probably would have been amazing.

The first 50 pages of The Comforters has basically been two long conversations, and through these exchanges of dialog I've learned a great deal about the characters, without Spark ever having to tell me anything. She is constantly showing.

D_Davis

07-12-2011, 03:24 PM

The Comforters is so far so good! Full of the charm, wit, bizarre situations and characters I've come to expect from Spark.

There is Caroline, a recent convert to Catholicism (Mirroring Spark's own late-life conversion), who begins hearing a typewriter accompanied by disembodied voices narrating her life (she suspects that she may be a character in a novel); Laurence, a snoop, and Caroline's ex-boyfriend, discovers that has Grandmother might be the leader of a gang (she hides diamonds in loaves of bread and meets with mysterious men); and The Baron, a rich literary eccentric, who is working on a book about novels but is struggling with the chapter on realism.

There are many layers of mystery and irony set up in the first 75 pages, and the entire thing is propelled by Spark's master-ear for dialog. God, I would love to have had the chance to meet Miss Spark; I'm sure I would have fallen madly in love.

dreamdead

07-12-2011, 03:50 PM

D_Davis

07-12-2011, 04:39 PM

Around 400 pages into King's Under the Dome now. Plot moves with such force, and now I'm waiting for the town to be split into two camps. It might not resonate for long, but King is a master at plot with this novel. I'm hoping some of the good and evil themes begin to get nuanced soon, though, which would ratchet up the book's quality.

The first 250 pages - the tour through the city as the dome falls - is the best thing King has ever written. Absolutely masterful. And the way that he balances the multitude of characters and situations proves his deft eye for constructing plot. So amazing.

I still maintain the opinion that this is King's single best novel.

Can't wait for his JFK novel - only 5 months!

Raiders

07-12-2011, 05:36 PM

Starting to read the Song of Ice and Fire series with Game of Thrones. I'll probably alternate the series with other books as I can see this becoming overwhelming to try and read back-to-back. I also can tell these are going to be entertaining reads if nothing else.

Marley

07-12-2011, 08:03 PM

D_Davis

07-12-2011, 08:07 PM

I'm taking a course this semester and surprisingly, this novel is on the syllabus. So excited. :)

That's awesome! What class is it?

Marley

07-12-2011, 08:46 PM

That's awesome! What class is it?

It's called "modern fiction up to 1960." Some authors include Joyce, James, Conrad, Faulkner, Hemmingway and Spark. I want to be ahead of the game and read this novel before the semester starts though, especially considering your high praise for it.

D_Davis

07-12-2011, 10:03 PM

It's called "modern fiction up to 1960." Some authors include Joyce, James, Conrad, Faulkner, Hemmingway and Spark. I want to be ahead of the game and read this novel before the semester starts though, especially considering your high praise for it.

I'm surprised The Comforters was chosen, as it seems to treated as a lesser work from Spark. Although it's cool that the prof chose something different than The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. It's weird how so many classes choose to teach the same works over and over again.

kuehnepips

07-13-2011, 10:28 AM

;)
Starting to read the Song of Ice and Fire series ... these are going to be entertaining reads ...

Yes. I think you'll enjoy them all.
Started reading the fifth book last night. I'll quit work earlier today ... ;)

D_Davis

07-13-2011, 03:16 PM

Marley, here is a really great collection of articles on Muriel Spark. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/muriel_spark/index.html)

Kurosawa Fan

07-13-2011, 06:01 PM

Someone who lives in New York, please go to this bookstore (http://outofprintapparel.com/blog/2011/the-secret-bookshop-in-nyc/). I want to live vicariously through you.

Mara

07-13-2011, 06:17 PM

Finished Howards End. I have to say, I was really blown away. I'd have to read Passage to India again to check which one was better, but I really think they were fairly comparable.

"Only connect"-- the theme that Forster repeats over and over in the book-- seems to be the driving force behind most of the story. Connect to other people, and they become your family and your loves. Connect to places and they become your home. Connect to art, to literature, to music, and you have a rich inner life. Divide yourself from any of these things and you will live a life of spiritual starvation.

I'm itching to watch the film again, but my impression is that although it was able to tell what the story was, it really wasn't about to convey what the story was about. To much of the inward drama is glossed over, and too many of the delicately spun relationships are simplified and shortened.

And the conversations! Forster can write a dialogue between two characters with so many levels and implications that it's like watching a choreographed dance. One conversation near the end-- referred to later, repeatedly, as a "tragedy"-- is so tightly woven and emotional that only one participant is actually following it, and the other person doesn't even realize that his world has just ended. It's dizzying.

I was so juiced from the book that I decided to revisit A Room with a View, which I haven't read since I was a teenager and I remembered as good, but not great. I read over half the book last night (it's not long) and really, it just doesn't hold a candle to Forster's more mature works. Stylistically, it's beautiful, and the romance is sweet, but it lacks the gut-punch I got from Howards End and A Passage to India. Still adore the film, though.

Benny Profane

07-13-2011, 06:21 PM

I was so juiced from the book that I decided to revisit A Room with a View, which I haven't read since I was a teenager and I remembered as good, but not great. I read over half the book last night (it's not long) and really, it just doesn't hold a candle to Forster's more mature works. Stylistically, it's beautiful, and the romance is sweet, but it lacks the gut-punch I got from Howards End and A Passage to India. Still adore the film, though.

Only Forster I've read, also as a teenager, and remember it as between good and great, but beyond that I remember not one thing about it.

Mara

07-13-2011, 06:26 PM

Only Forster I've read, also as a teenager, and remember it as between good and great, but beyond that I remember not one thing about it.

I'm of the minority opinion (by MC standards) that the film is strikingly beautiful. I've probably seen it a dozen or more times. It's a favorite.

Warning: penises.

I was not warned the first time I saw it, and I was, like, eleven.

Mara

07-13-2011, 11:32 PM

Oh, goodness. The naked scene in the book of A Room with a View is just as funny as in the film-- perhaps funnier. I laughed until my eyes were watering.

dreamdead

07-14-2011, 03:24 PM

The first 250 pages - the tour through the city as the dome falls - is the best thing King has ever written. Absolutely masterful. And the way that he balances the multitude of characters and situations proves his deft eye for constructing plot. So amazing.

I still maintain the opinion that this is King's single best novel.

Powered through and knocked off the last 400 pages yesterday. I cand get behind some of these ideas, though I haven't read any King before this since around 2001. It doesn't have some of the tricky child psycho-sexual politics that It has, and it's better for it. This one doesn't break my top ten, but that's more of a matter of how solid the top ten is at this point. It's just outside of it, though.

I come away incredibly impressed by the vision behind the last hundred or so pages. Once everything goes to hell, King balances the characters and responses remarkably well. I even come away from the explanatory ending moved, when it has the chance to come as too much of a stretch. That ending is wonderfully spiritual, in all the multiplicity of that word. Very good stuff.

I'm onto Sherman Alexie's Reservation Blues now, which isn't likely to move with the same pace.

D_Davis

07-14-2011, 03:27 PM

The Comforters, by Muriel Spark

Dame Muriel Spark must have been somewhat mad, as in bonkers. What is the reason behind my accusation? Well, the only other author I know of who understood the insanity of modern life as well as she did is Philip K. Dick. Old Phil was rather odd, and much has been written about his own sanity, or lack thereof. Therefor, if it takes one to know one, both Phil and Muriel must have been one, or, at least, highly sympathetic and empathetic to the maladies of the mad and insane. Dick and Spark also both had mid-to-late life religious experiences that greatly influenced their writing. Two strange peas in an odd pod.

The Comforters, her first novel, is brimming with characters suffering from some kind of madness. And like Dick's characters, each of Spark's characters lives in their own reality tunnel. While they share a similar space with one another, none of them really knows what kind of trip the other is on. But can't this be said for all of us? The idea of entirely subjective reality is one that is endlessly fascinating to me, and Spark employs an uncanny ability to explore this concept utilizing traditional narration, experimental literary devices and meta-textual layering.

It has often been said that it is a fruitless effort to describe the plot of a Spark novel, and I completely agree. The Comforters deals with diamond smuggling, black magic, Catholicism, a writer who hears a disembodied voice narrating her own life, a woman who disappears when she is alone because she doesn't have a private life of her own, infidelity, blackmail, and the intrusive meddling of the hopelessly disconnected and tragically idle.

If I had to register a complaint against this novel, it would be that Miss Spark, through her starry-eyed ambition, probably bit off a bit more than she could chew; not much, mind you, but just a bit. That this was her first novel is something extraordinary indeed, for I can't imagine too many other authors writing this well and tackling this much at the very peaks of their careers, let alone in their first attempts. In this novel, Spark set the foundation upon which she would build her entire career, and even though it is a bit messy in places, it is still an entirely admirable and glorious mess that shines with creative energy and masterclass prose.

As I talk to more and more constant readers I am more and more saddened by how little Muriel Spark is read these days. She was an absolute phenomenon, possessing an enormous amount of talent. I am so pleased to have discovered her, and I can't wait to read more.

D_Davis

07-14-2011, 05:14 PM

A transcription of an interview with Spark. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/johntusainterview/spark_transcript.shtml)
(there is also audio, but it's RAM - yuk!)

Few novelists are identified by popular catch-phrases from their writing. It's a fair bet that of the countless people who talk of Girls of Slender Means, A Far Cry from Kensington, the Ballad of Peckham Rye, or undoubtedly most often, the Crème de la Crème, few people know that they're echoing a line, a title or a catchphrase from a novel by Muriel Spark . Her titles, her subjects, her characters have an insinuating quality. Her prose, which she insists is really poetry, is spare, lean, economical. Muriel Spark's observations are sharp, often lethal. It's been said that the slivers of glass that should reside in any writer's heart are pretty large ones in her case.

Winston*

07-15-2011, 02:08 AM

Kurosawa Fan

07-15-2011, 02:32 AM

Love both of the books I've read on that list, Achebe's and (I'm assuming you meant) Conrad's. Funny pairing, as Achebe thought Conrad was a racist whose work should be taken out of the canon.

Winston*

07-15-2011, 02:41 AM

Love both of the books I've read on that list, Achebe's and (I'm assuming you meant) Conrad's. Funny pairing, as Achebe thought Conrad was a racist whose work should be taken out of the canon.

Think that is part of the reason both were chosen. Achebe's essay about Heart of Darkness is on the syllabus.

And yeah, I meant Conrad. Dumb. I've read the book before too.

Mara

07-15-2011, 12:41 PM

As well as a bunch of English Restoration and 18th Century literature for another course. Books are cool.

Oooooh, tell me these books. One of my favorite classes in college was on Restoration literature.

Benny Profane

07-15-2011, 12:58 PM

D_Davis

07-15-2011, 02:29 PM

Powered through and knocked off the last 400 pages yesterday. I cand get behind some of these ideas, though I haven't read any King before this since around 2001. It doesn't have some of the tricky child psycho-sexual politics that It has, and it's better for it. This one doesn't break my top ten, but that's more of a matter of how solid the top ten is at this point. It's just outside of it, though.

I come away incredibly impressed by the vision behind the last hundred or so pages. Once everything goes to hell, King balances the characters and responses remarkably well. I even come away from the explanatory ending moved, when it has the chance to come as too much of a stretch. That ending is wonderfully spiritual, in all the multiplicity of that word. Very good stuff.

I'm really glad you liked and connected with the ending, because I did too, and a lot of people did not. I think it fits perfectly with the themes of the book, and the reasons behind everything are made even more chilling. Under the Dome is entirely impressive. Sometimes literary minded people dismiss King for his lack of subtlety and nuance, and simultaneously gloss over his utter mastery of plot and and storytelling, and with Under the Dome he solidifies his position as one of the all time great storytellers. I can't think of another author who could do what he did with this novel.

Winston*

07-15-2011, 02:31 PM

Oooooh, tell me these books. One of my favorite classes in college was on Restoration literature.

Dryden, Absalom and Achitophel
Behn, Oroonoko
Defoe, Robinson Crusoe
Swift, A Modest Proposal
Steele and Addison, “The Spectator’s Club,” “The Aims of the Spectator,” “Inkle and Yarico,” and “The Royal Exchange”
Pope, “An Essay on Criticism”
Pope, “The Dunciad”
Pope, “Epistle to Dr Arbuthnot”
Gay, The Beggar’s Opera (Norton Anthology, pp. 2613-2656)
Boswell, selections from The Life of Samuel Johnson, LL.D.
Johnson, selections from Lives of the Poets
Johnson, Rambler No. 5 [On Spring], Idler No. 31 [On Idleness], Rambler No. 4 [On Fiction], Rambler No. 60 [Biography] (Norton Anthology.
Gray, “Elegy Written in a Country Churchyar

Mara

07-15-2011, 02:36 PM

That has some significant overlap with the syllabus from my class. I find Restoration literature to be refreshing; clean-cut and amusing without being bogged down with too much romanticism.

But, for the record, I really dislike Robison Crusoe. Beyond being dated, imperialistic, and racist, it's just not a very interesting story. It's a pity, because Defoe's Moll Flanders is a real favorite of mine: smart, naughty, incisive, and charming.

Winston*

07-15-2011, 02:42 PM

I find Restoration literature to be refreshing; clean-cut and amusing without being bogged down with too much romanticism.

Romanticism is awesome. I did Romantic literature last semester. I loved Keats especially, so much.

Mara

07-15-2011, 02:50 PM

Romanticism is awesome. I did Romantic literature last semester. I loved Keats especially, so much.

I like it too... I like it differently. They appeal to very different moods.

The romantics wrote some amazing things, and the way they describe emotion is brilliant. They really dug into the spiritual inner life and glorified it. But they're not very funny, or very logical.

The Restoration writers were more self-aware, sarcastic, obsessed with realism, and amusing. Pope-- whom I adore-- can actually bring me to tears with laughter. They were the first writers who really became critics, both of literature and of human nature.

I think you'll like it.

Sven

07-15-2011, 03:46 PM

Pope, “An Essay on Criticism”

One of the very best pieces of writing I've read.

Hugh_Grant

07-15-2011, 10:06 PM

Going to be reading these books for university this semester:

Jospeh Cambpell, Heart of Darkness
Robert Louis Stevenson, The Beach of Falesa
Chinua Achebe, Things Fall Apart
Jean Rhys, Wide Sargasso Sea
Andrea Levy, Small Island
David Malouf, Remembering Babylon
J.M. Coetzee, Foe
Hanif Kureishi, The Buddha of Suburbia

I'm going to assume that you are taking a course in colonial/postcolonial literature. The Kureishi is one of my favorite books, very irreverent. I've read all of these except the Malouf and Coetzee, but I've read plenty of the latter.

When I last taught postcolonial lit, a student of mine rewatched an adaptation of Robinson Crusoe, and had a great colonial interpretation. I was proud of her. :)

Mysterious Dude

07-17-2011, 01:59 PM

I'm about 70 pages into War and Peace. I'm reminded of the wedding scene in The Deer Hunter. Isn't there supposed to be a war in this book?!

kuehnepips

07-18-2011, 11:35 AM

:lol: :lol:

This is the funniest thing I've ever read on a book discussion forum!

Mara

07-19-2011, 12:57 PM

Marley

07-19-2011, 03:54 PM

Marley, here is a really great collection of articles on Muriel Spark. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/muriel_spark/index.html)

Sorry, I somehow managed to overlook your post. This link is very helpful, thanks Davis! Also, your review of "The Comforters" has gotten me even more psyched to read it especially the connection you make to PKD. The story sounds insane. :lol:

And the conversations! Forster can write a dialogue between two characters with so many levels and implications that it's like watching a choreographed dance. One conversation near the end-- referred to later, repeatedly, as a "tragedy"-- is so tightly woven and emotional that only one participant is actually following it, and the other person doesn't even realize that his world has just ended. It's dizzying.

Well, I did eventually manage to finish Howards End but did not end up loving it as much as you did, Mara. In fact, I pretty much had a completely opposite reaction and found the majority of the novel dull, contrived and lacking any sort of emotional resonance whatsoever. Sure, there are moments when Forster provides wonderful insight but other than that, the novel left me cold in its detached style. The major tragic moment at the end was inevitable but there is no emotional weight behind it at all and just sort of incoherently happens without any genuine motive because this scene occurs only to serve to emphasize Forster's political and social purposes. As you mention, the way Forster utilizes conversation in many intriguing ways to emphasize the underlying subtext is worth noting but the haughty diction sure got annoying fast in its snotty obnoxiousness, geez. Oh well, this just isn't the type of novel for me.

Mara

07-19-2011, 04:06 PM

I'm sorry you didn't like it much. I'm liking it even more in retrospect... just spoke to me, I guess.

Marley

07-19-2011, 04:26 PM

I'm sorry you didn't like it much. I'm liking it even more in retrospect... just spoke to me, I guess.

Granted, there were many wonderful and beautiful passages that I copied down for future reference. He's a great writer, no doubt about that. I just wish his story-telling abilities were on the same level.

Marley

07-19-2011, 10:08 PM

Geez, Henry James is really starting to piss me off with his flowery run-on sentences. I've never encountered an author who uses so many colons, semi-colons and line breaks. I'm only 10 pages into The Ambassadors and already feeling the urge to bang my head against the wall in frustration.

Kurosawa Fan

07-20-2011, 01:00 AM

I kind of loved James' style in Portrait of a Lady, though that's all I've read by him.

Our Aurora

07-20-2011, 01:14 AM

ledfloyd

07-20-2011, 01:37 AM

i finished reading madame bovary. i liked it quite a bit, but am hesitant to say that i loved it. it's weird reading novels with such imposing reputations, if you're not absolutely enamored with them it always feels like a bit of a disappointment. i've practically memorized this line though "Language is a cracked kettle on which we beat out tunes for bears to dance to, while all the time we long to move the stars to pity." i love it.

Marley

07-20-2011, 02:50 AM

I kind of loved James' style in Portrait of a Lady, though that's all I've read by him.

I've only read "A Turn of the Screw" along with a bunch of his other short-stories and much like the Ambassadors, I find his writing to be insufferably discursive. I can only assume that 'Portrait of a Lady' shares a similar flamboyant style but holy hell is it ever annoying. There is no need to stretch sentences to half a page with useless wordplay, get to the bloody point! Ugghhhhh.

Marley

07-20-2011, 03:10 AM

I have been re-reading all of James Baldwin's novels in preparation for my thesis. Just finished Another Country and I found myself on the verge of tears throughout much of the text. I found it to be more visceral this time around. The characters were relatable in a way I had not encountered during my first reading.

The characters and the story are so beautiful, I am apprehensive to defile, and destroy them for myself, with academic analysis.

Wouldn't a thorough analysis actually help you appreciate the texts more? I suppose it cuts both ways.

If you don't mind me asking, is this a thesis for a BA or PHD in English? My initial plan was to major in English Lit but self-doubt is forcing me to reconsider. I really don't think my writing and reading comprehension skills are up to par for this degree. We'll see how it goes.

The only Baldwin that I have read is "Go Tell it to the Mountain" which was excellent. It is one of the most powerful meditations on Christianity and faith that I have ever come across in a novel. Since you are an expert on his work, I'd be curious what you think of this one.

Our Aurora

07-20-2011, 03:39 AM

Wouldn't a thorough analysis actually help you appreciate the texts more? I suppose it cuts both ways.

If you don't mind me asking, is this a thesis for a BA or PHD in English? My initial plan was to major in English Lit but self-doubt is forcing me to reconsider. I really don't think my writing and reading comprehension skills are up to par for this degree. We'll see how it goes.

The only Baldwin that I have read is "Go Tell it to the Mountain" which was excellent. It is one of the most powerful meditations on Christianity and faith that I have ever come across in a novel. Since you are an expert on his work, I'd be curious what you think of this one.

Well I'm far from an expert... haha. I remember Go Tell it on the Mountain being as you describe it in your post. I have yet to re-read it. Although now that I think about the book it quite neatly aligns with the ideas of masculinity which I believe Baldwin sculpts over his body of work -- I'll begin it tomorrow morning... thanks!

He has an amazing talent for presenting characters in crises, but they never seem whiny or incoherent, as the problems are honest. You should try out some more of his work, because Go Tell it on the Mountain is singular, as it is one of the only works of fiction in which he almost solely focuses on religion. Religion is a topic which pops up throughout, but his successive works focus more on sexuality and gender roles, in a deeply racist world.

This is actually for a BA in African American Studies. I am double majoring in English and the aforementioned, but English was my initial choice. Once I entered my current University most of the classes which appealed to me happened to be in the Black Studies program. Instead of only minoring, I chose to "go for it," and went for the double major. You are quite right in suggesting that careful analyses can be fruitful, and precipitate a deeper appreciation of a work. But at the same time tedious combing of the minutiae can lessen the impact of the initial reaction from his stark honesty. I can only hope that I will be choking back tears in public when I read Another Country in the upcoming months.

I've read many of your posts and I highly doubt that your reading and writing skills are subpar for an English degree. Classes will only heighten your abilities. If it is something that you truly enjoy you should just get after it...

Hugh_Grant

07-20-2011, 02:45 PM

Two words on James Baldwin: "Sonny's Blues."

I love that story. Holds up just fine under academic scrutiny, too.

Mara

07-20-2011, 07:36 PM

For a light-hearted change of pace, my new commuting book on CD is Sense and Sensibility and Sea Monsters. So far, it's striking me as far funnier than Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, but that may be because it's hilarious to hear it read in an extremely correct, Received Pronunciation accent.

This has prompted me to revisit Ang Lee's Sense and Sensibility and I still think it's top tier. Lovely and light, funny and clever. Hugh Grant is sort of obnoxious, but the rest of the cast is excellent.

Alan Rickman is dead sexy.

Mysterious Dude

07-20-2011, 08:40 PM

I'm one tenth of the way through War and Peace. I finally got to the war part. And then I realized that I hardly understand military jargon at all.

Our Aurora

07-22-2011, 02:06 AM

Two words on James Baldwin: "Sonny's Blues."

I love that story. Holds up just fine under academic scrutiny, too.

Yeah... I think my worries about the whole academic scrutiny thing were rash. I love what I'm doing with these texts. I was feeling a little bitter the other night. The idea of writing this thesis is overwhelming.

"Sonny's Blues" is a fantastic story -- as is the rest of Going to Meet the Man. My introduction to Baldwin was his short fiction, but I am finding his longer works to be just as powerful.

D_Davis

07-24-2011, 12:45 PM

Picked up some more Murial Spark this weekend:

The Stories of Murial Spark - which claims to have all of her short stories, and yet it is missing some, including one that I got in...
The Snobs
The Ballad of Peckham Rye
The Bachelors

The Pechham Rye sounds especially awesome - Sparks 1960 comic novel follows Dougal Douglas, who is hired by a company to poke into the private lives of its employees. Douglas turns out to be a demonical researcher who butts in so much he begins to influence his subjects actions rather than just observe them.

Can't wait to read it.

dreamdead

07-25-2011, 11:14 PM

Although I like the dry humor inherent to Warren Ellis's Crooked Little Vein, so much of it is a mash-up of internet esoterica and hard-boiled Chandlerisms that it can never really rise above its premise. The idea that the internet legitimizes how mainstream any fetish is interesting, but too often the narrative strives for excess and absurdity. Meh, which is sad since I generally enjoy Ellis's themes.

Marilynne Robinson's Housekeeping is equally disappointing, since its acclaim feels largely tied to Robinson's prose but not its ideas here. The general mood is almost one of a nostalgic indifference, two concepts that can't actually co-exist, though the book somehow strives for it.

Alexie's Reservation Blues, however, is pretty good. I'll have to look into other works by him in the future. For now, though, I've started Don DeLillo's Underworld, and have just about finished the magnificent 1951 Pennett Race prelude.