The Comic Book Discussion Thread

[dreamdead]

I’m wondering how much of the drop-off in following artists is directly responsible by the lesser product turned out when the Image artists left the Marvel fold and ended up largely designing serviceable—at best—stories. Remember how quickly McFarlane brought Moore and Gaiman in to design Spawn narratives and it’s apparent that the boost in authorship immediately made mediocre writing so much stronger. I left comics for most of the 00s, but I suspect there was an equivalent there too, which together ties in the two age groups and certifies the following of writers now.

For my sake, I’ve followed J.H. Williams III onto multiple titles, but even then he was aided by Moore, Ellis, and then Rucka. When he took over Batwoman sans-Rucka, the narrative dropoff was unmistakable, even if his art buoyed the product.

[Sven]

Kirby's writing is great and I loved it from day one, so I have to say I disagree with that one.

Kirby's got great style. Lee, however, is much less imaginative.

[number8]

I’m wondering how much of the drop-off in following artists is directly responsible by the lesser product turned out when the Image artists left the Marvel fold and ended up largely designing serviceable—at best—stories. Remember how quickly McFarlane brought Moore and Gaiman in to design Spawn narratives and it’s apparent that the boost in authorship immediately made mediocre writing so much stronger. I left comics for most of the 00s, but I suspect there was an equivalent there too, which together ties in the two age groups and certifies the following of writers now.
I don't think it's that direct. Remember, the poll was about retailers in their decisions to order comics to stock. So I think it's more caused by Marvel and DC's decisions to de-emphasize artists when marketing their top books. Until very recently, DC was adopting a "house style" look where aside from 2-3 superstars, all the artists on their books are essentially interchangeable. The criticism that was being raised in response to this poll was to point out how seldom that the artist is even mentioned when Marvel and DC are hyping up their big events in interviews and conventions.

I say every time there's a big status quo change (death, new character, etc etc) that gets the "it'll go back to normal in a year so who cares" criticism that comics should be critiqued for their ability to execute a story whatever it is, and an artist is 50% of a successful execution. When you're talking about superhero comics, though, there's a tendency for both publisher and readers to think that what's important is how the events of a story affects the overall continuity, and the artist's contribution figures much less in such matters, which I think is why they are an afterthought in the interviews/conventions hype train.

I believe it's beginning to shift recently, and I really want to credit Hawkeye as the book that shook up Marvel, and now DC as a byproduct of their competition. It's very much significant that Marvel would rather delay that book for an absurd amount of months than have fill-in artists take over from David Aja, and I don't think these recent Marvel books where the unique artist got a lot of notice in like Moon Knight, Black Widow, Silver Surfer, All-New Ghost Rider, etc would have been that way without Hawkeye blazing that trail in getting fans to notice how important the art is in the equation.

[megladon8]

Kirby's got great style. Lee, however, is much less imaginative.


Completely agree.

With Kirby, the weirder the better.

[sevenarts]

I enjoy the writing on Black Widow and Silver Surfer, but if they had anyone other than Noto and Allred drawing them, I probably would not still be reading them.

I do agree with both of these. Noto is like 90% of Black Widow's appeal, giving it that cool, detached 70s spy movie that communicates exactly what it needs to. And Allred makes every book feel like his own, almost no matter who's writing it. i've read a bunch of books just for him, and while they probably would've been better if he was writing them himself, they've still been enjoyable primarily for his aesthetic.

I feel like these are exceptions where a unique stylist brings enough mood/energy to a project to overpower rather understated, almost genric writing.

[Grouchy]

I think, in agreement with number8, it's a general feeling that's encouraged by the publishing companies, which often inmediately replace an artist if he can't meet the deadlines, even in the middle of an ongoing storyline, and usually discourage the most off-beat and personal drawing styles.

It's not the same in comics from other latitudes and even indie yank comics. I would buy any comic just because it's drawn by Juan Giménez, Moebius, Milo Manara or Quique Alcatena. But frankly, I'd do the same for guys like Frank Quitely or Mike Allred. It's just that the industry makes it a little more difficult to catch up with them.

[Melville]

I'm surprised how much people favor the writer over the artist nowadays. When I first got into comics in the early 90s, with the exception of a few superstar writers, the artist was king.

I'll check out a comic based solely on the artist, on the writer, or on their particular collaboration, but which one is most important for me depends on what I've heard about the comic. It also depends on what I know about the nature of the collaboration. The analogy isn't perfect, but if we can say the writer is like the scriptwriter of a movie and the artist is like the cinematographer and editor, then the relative importance of the two depends on who's the director: whose "artistic vision" is dominating the final product? I get the impression that currently, in most superhero comics the writer is the one driving the bus. But in the traditional Marvel style of production, where the writer initially just provides a story outline to the artist, the artist is really the one defining how the story is told. (Does Marvel still use that model?) Even in that type of collaboration, the writer can be the dominant artistic force, maybe acting more like a tv show runner than a movie director, but it can clearly give the artist a lot more control over the final product.

In most comics I really like, the writing and art can't meaningfully be separated, and as sevenarts said, they're often done by the same person.

[D_Davis]

A comic book - sequential art / story telling - should be controlled and dictated by the art.

If it's not, then write a prose novel or short story.

[megladon8]

A comic book - sequential art / story telling - should be controlled and dictated by the art.

If it's not, then write a prose novel or short story.

That's too reductive.

It's not something that's an absolute. If there is a generality, it's that the two should be symbiotic. Working together to form a whole.

You could just as easily say "if a comic book is dictated by its art, then just make picture books."

[Melville]

A comic book - sequential art / story telling - should be controlled and dictated by the art.
I generally agree, but in many cases, the most important storytelling aspects of the art—page layout, layout within each panel, the desired atmosphere of each panel, etc.—are dictated to the artist by the writer.


That's too reductive.

It's not something that's an absolute. If there is a generality, it's that the two should be symbiotic. Working together to form a whole.

You could just as easily say "if a comic book is dictated by its art, then just make picture books."
I'd call picture books comics.

[megladon8]

I wouldn't.

A Robert Munsch book is not a comic book.

[Melville]

I wouldn't.

A Robert Munsch book is not a comic book.
What makes you distinguish it? It's a sequence of pictures combined with text to tell a story. Comics like Prince Valiant and Devil by the Deed are told in pretty much the same style as a picture book.

But semantics aside, I'm not sure how the extreme example of picture books relates to Davis's point. Picture books are more often associated with the writer than the artist, and they are often just as text-driven as standard comics (by which I mean comics that feature multiple panels per page and more flow between panels). I think "silent" comics, devoid of any text, are an extreme that relates better to Davis's point. They're "controlled" (as Davis says) by their art, and they're unquestionably comics; there have been plenty of them in the mainstream. They're just writing with pictures, as all comics do.

The visual storytelling features of comics have always been very interesting to me. As another extreme (but again not uncommon) example, I like that you can have a blank black page with a sequence of white word balloons, and their layout on the page makes them into something completely different than just the text of the conversation.

[megladon8]

Great post and agree with all your points, Melville.

I do maintain, though, that neither piece (writing or art) is more important than the other. Even without words, the story has been written. It's it just a sequence of random images - there is rhyme, rhythm and reason in their layout and order. And these things are determined through the writing of the story.

It's like an action scene in a movie - even if nothing is being said, the scene was sequentially written and photographed to meet what the writing laid out.

Writing doesn't just mean dialogue or exposition.

[Sven]

I've pretty much informally vowed not to read any of the new Star Wars comics, but the idea of a Bianchi-drawn Obi-wan one-shot sounds pretty great.

I guess that's an example of me being more likely to read something because of the artist...

[number8]

Sometimes it's hard to hate this dude.

626103840702476288

[Ezee E]

What categories are within "other" anyway?

[megladon8]

I've pretty much informally vowed not to read any of the new Star Wars comics, but the idea of a Bianchi-drawn Obi-wan one-shot sounds pretty great.

I guess that's an example of me being more likely to read something because of the artist...


Why have you vowed not to read them?

Darth Vader is great stuff!

[Sven]

Why have you vowed not to read them?

Maybe "vow" is the wrong word. A vow would suggest I am actually tempted to read them. The truth of the matter is that it will be very easy for me to not read them because I think the Star Wars universe is, well... let's be diplomatic and say unsalvageable.

[megladon8]

Ah, that's too bad. There are some great Star Wars comics out there.

My recommendation of Darth Vader stands if you ever change your mind!

[Melville]

Writing doesn't just mean dialogue or exposition.
Yeah, I think we're pretty much in agreement, just describing the same thing in different words.

[megladon8]

My god, Fall of Cthulhu is so damn good!

[megladon8]

Today's haul:

Cthulhu Tales Omnibus 1 & 2
King City
Hellraiser vol. 4 & 5
Spawn Neo Noir
Spawn: The Dark Ages omnibus

[D_Davis]

I generally agree, but in many cases, the most important storytelling aspects of the art—page layout, layout within each panel, the desired atmosphere of each panel, etc.—are dictated to the artist by the writer.


True. I think this is why I prefer it when the writer and artist are the same person. Probably why I always gravitated towards manga.

[D_Davis]

My god, Fall of Cthulhu is so damn good!

I'm going to order it soon. Found a few on eBay.

[megladon8]

I'm going to order it soon. Found a few on eBay.


Awesome. Can't wait for you to get a load of this interpretation of the Old Ones!

[D_Davis]

Is the story done, or is it ongoing?

[megladon8]

It's done. Collected in one big omnibus.

[D_Davis]

It's done. Collected in one big omnibus.

Cool. That omnibus is HUGE. Around 700 pages.

[megladon8]

Yeah it's 6 volumes in one book.

I'm on volume 5 now.

[megladon8]

Holy crap.

Fall of Cthulhu spoilers...

Love the way they "explained" events throughout history with Cthulhu worship. So cool.

[megladon8]

Finished it last night. It's really one of the best things I've ever read. Great humour, terrifying images and ideas, and a grasp of Cthulhu mythos that gives new readers a great starting point, and seasoned Lovecraftians an engrossing and fresh take on the ideas we've been seeing for nearly a century now.

A devilishly sly ending and final chapter, too. Just loved the little epilogue.

The strength of the work really shows when you consider how the presence of Cthulhu and absolute dread you feel about his rising permeates every single page...yet we only see him in one panel, near the very end of the book. Freaking awesome.

[Sven]

Has anyone else read Waid's Incorruptible/Irredeemable serieses? I'll spare you guys a detailed response, because there's quite a bit to say about it, but the endings are essential I don't want to give anything away. The way the concept develops is a fascinating thing, especially regarding Waid's MO of extending ideas to certain logical ideals and conclusions. Ultimately, Incorruptible starts great and ends like a limp noodle, while Irredeemable starts a bit trite and concludes in a tremendously imaginative way, kinda besting Morrison at his own game. However, both titles have art problems, which is a damn shame, and both probably felt fresher five years ago. Now every superhero title with a Superman analogue asks "what if he was evil?", now no longer much of an interesting hook.

Also, in the end, I'm not sure there's much content Waid is tackling that Ennis doesn't nail in The Boys. I'd probably ultimately just recommend reading that one instead.

[megladon8]

I never could get a taste for The Boys.

But I generally love Mark Waid.

I'll give them a look.

[number8]

Yup. They're great, and I agree with the endings. Incorruptible hit an early conclusion (you know exactly where) and limped on, ending up just being in service of setting up Irredeemable's finale.

[Sven]

Yup. They're great, and I agree with the endings.

Qubit and Modeus are two of Waid's best creations, in my opinion.

[number8]

It's kind of interesting that a lot of the premises in Irredeemable begins, as you said, with trite hooks, but Waid then takes it to much more interesting places than you'd ever expect the premise to end up as. "What if Superman is evil?" is overused, and the book probably would be really hacky if it was a short, contained exploration of that premise. But by making it longform and allowing it to grow and evolve, it really became something great. Same thing with Qubit, who is very blatantly inspired by Doctor Who, and it's playing with the whole Superman vs The Doctor fan hypotheticals at first, but again, it allows Qubit to grow into something far, far more interesting than just the Doctor stand-in.

Oh, also, I found Plutonian's arc of regretting what he did a bit more interesting than Homelander's arc of feeling trapped inside the military industrial complex in terms of exploring the limits of Superman's invincibility.

[megladon8]

Read the first Battlefields story, "Night Witches".

Amazing stuff.

[number8]

Gotta agree with Kurt Busiek.


Do you think the big-budget comic book films are helping or hindering the comic book market? Like having a film's plot influence the direction of a particular book, or even with Fox's ownership of the FF's film rights potentially leading to its cancellation under Marvel Comics.

I’m not really sure how to answer that. I think they’re helping in that Marvel and DC are certainly seeing lots of money come in as a result, not so much from selling periodical comic books, but TPBs and digital comics and the like.

The idea of movies or TV influencing comics content has never been a problem for me. Jimmy Olsen and kryptonite come from a radio show, the Batman TV show got the comics to bring Alfred back from the dead, and so on. Harley Quinn comes from a cartoon. Good ideas can come from anywhere, and I don’t think DC should have thought, “No, no, no, we can’t put Smallville in Kansas, because if we do we’re being driven by the movies!”

If it resonates, go with it. See where it takes you. If I was writing the characters at the moment, I’d be at least thinking about whether a Hulk/Black Widow romance would be an interesting road to follow for those characters…the concept that it’s a bad idea because a good writer came up with it for a movie instead of for a comic book is just weird to me. Comics are influenced by many things, and deciding that movies or TV should be walled away doesn’t make much sense. Stir it all together and see what you get out of it.

And Marvel’s in the process of blowing up and rebuilding their whole universe right now. If they come out the other end and there’s no FANTASTIC FOUR book, I’ll be surprised. I think the online fuss over that stuff is just crackers. They publish a lot of X-Men stuff. They publish Spider-Man, even though Sony makes the movies. They’re going to do what sells, or what they think sells.

[megladon8]

So basically he reiterates one of the most memorable things (to me) that you've ever said, 8: there are no bad ideas, just bad writers.

I love seeing stuff turned on its end or mixed up. Keeping things the same is boring, and having all the mediums interplay and take each other's best ideas is very cool in this type of arrangement (characters that have existed for the better part of a century and risk becoming stale).

[megladon8]

So basically he reiterates one of the most memorable things (to me) that you've ever said, 8: there are no bad ideas, just bad writers.

I love seeing stuff turned on its end or mixed up. Keeping things the same is boring, and having all the mediums interplay and take each other's best ideas is very cool in this type of arrangement (characters that have existed for the better part of a century and risk becoming stale).

[megladon8]

"Wytches" was quite good.

Didn't really "get" the strange colouring until closer to the end, when it's themes of anxiety and panic began to come together.

As someone who has suffered crippling anxiety disorders, I enjoyed its look at the subject (despite a few oversimplifications of the problem and its "solution").

Good stuff. Greatly prefer "Severed", for sure, but good stuff.

[sevenarts]

I finally got around to reading Richard McGuire's Here - the book-length, expanded version of his classic short strip of the same name - and it was as good as expected. The original "Here" was both massively influential and an amazing piece of work, one of those things that seems deceptively simple in some ways and yet just seeing it is enough to both trigger some heady thoughts about life, time, history, etc., and to expand one's perception of what comics are capable of. The book version takes the same ideas and really delves into them, and the greater length makes the work's ideas about time and space, memory, nostalgia, etc. really hit home that much harder because now McGuire has the space to let connections develop across dozens or even hundreds of pages, or to spread out some of the mini-narratives to reinforce the non-linear structure.

Switching from the original's black-and-white to full color also enhances the work, as McGuire plays around with multiple different drawing and coloring styles, which allows him to create some fascinating contrasts as he uses different styles, color palettes, and media to represent different eras within the same page. The mix of pencils, painting, computer linework and colors, etc. is really beautiful.

Just an amazing book in every way.

[megladon8]

The concept behind Spawn: Neo Noir is sound (Spawn learns about a terrible thing that he and his brothers did as teens, which helped mark his destiny as the next Hellspawn).

But the writing is incredibly stilted, and while Spawn and the demons of Hell look awesome, humans and their movements often look wonky. One image in particular shows a person drawing back a knife getting ready to stab, and it almost looks like a practice drawing that they decided to colour and publish as final work.

[Melville]

Updating my reading list from last year.

To read more of/continue reading
Alias
Ant Colony/everything DeForge
Azzarello's Wonder Woman
Criminal
Deadly Class
Duncan the Wonder Dog
Enigma
Fade Out
Grendel
Hickman's Avengers/New Avengers/Secret Wars
The Manhattan Projects
Miracleman
Nijigahara Holograph
Palomar
Planetary
Pretty Deadly
Prophet
Secret Avengers
Southern Bastards
Spurrier's X-Force
Velvet


To read/start reading
Airtight Garage
Alec: The Years Have Pants
The Arrival
Arzach
Beautiful Darkness
Black Science
Blacksad
Black Lung
Black River
The Blot
Bottomless Belly Button
Cages
Casanova
A Child's Life and Other Stories
Copra
Corto Maltese
Curses/Ganges
Dogs and Water and/or Big Questions
Doom Patrol
EC horror comics
Fantastic Four - Kirby & Lee
Finder
Fires (Mattotti)
Fran
Gyo
How to Be Everywhere
How to Be Happy
The Invisibles
A Jew in Communist Prague
Kurtzman's war comics
La Perdida
Lazarus
Locas
Lone Wolf and Cub
Low
Mad (Kurtzman era)
Mind Mgmt
Miss Don't Touch Me
The Monkey King
Moomin
Morrison's Batman
Mother Come Home
Multiversity
My Trouble with Women
Nao of Brown
Nat Turner
ODY-C
One! Hundred! Demons!
The Photographer
Planetes
Pluto
Poor Bastard
The Push Man and Other Stories
Safe Area Gorazde
Saga of the Swamp Thing
Sandman Mystery Theatre
Scalped
Scott Pilgrim
The Secret History
Sharaz De
Skyscrapers of the Midwest
The Spirit
Starman
Steranko's Nick Fury
Stigmata (Mattotti)
Stitches
Summer Blonde
Through the Woods
Tekkon Kinkreet
Torpedo
Travel
What a Wonderful World
The Wrenchies
X'ed Out/The Hive/Sugar Skull

sevenarts' experimental comics canon
Gary Panter - Jimbo in Purgatory, etc.
Martin Vaughn-James - The Cage
Mark Beyer - Amy and Jordan, Agony
Abstract Comics anthology
Kramers Ergot 4-8
John Hankiewicz - Asthma
Mary Fleener - Life of the Party
A sampling of Fort Thunder stuff (Mat Brinkmann, Brian Chippendale)
Richard Hahn - Lumakick
Julia Gfrorer - Flesh and Bone, etc.
Joshua Cotter - Driven by Lemons
Spiegelman - Breakdowns

[Sven]

Anybody read Zenith? Phase III is, like... wow. Proto-Morrison that reads like a perfection of universal apocalypse narratives. Practically bests Secret Wars by proving such meta-dynamism doesn't require 60+ years of continuity. I can't believe he was this good that early. And Yeowell, whose style rarely translates well to modern printing/coloring techniques, nails every panel. One of the best comics I've read.

[Melville]

Is anybody reading Island? Looks interesting: https://imagecomics.com/comics/releases/island-1

[Melville]

I need to get into the wider world of comics. Looking for recs in some of my blind spots:

- Pre-1980 superheroes. All the ones I've read have been stultifyingly overwritten, but they've almost all been written by Stan Lee or Chris Claremont. Might check out the Kirby/Lee FF despite Lee.
- Pre-1990 indie comics, especially old school underground comix. I've mostly just read a couple disorganized Crumb collections.
- Old-timey war, horror, sci-fi, other non-superhero genre comics. All I've read is a distractingly organized Kriegstein collection. I'm looking at the new Alex Toth Creepy/Eerie collection from Dark Horse, but I don't know if it's exclusively horror. The Fantagraphics EC collections also look inviting.
- Non-American comics. I've read some of the standard manga and a few French comics, but not much else.
- Experimental comics. I love seeing the order of a page disintegrate or rearrange.

[sevenarts]

Overwriting comes with the territory with older superheroes, for the most part. Lee/Kirby FF is great and packed with amazing concepts/images, well worth reading even though I find Lee pretty tiresome in large doses. Some pre-1980 Batman is worth a look: the Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams/Frank Robbins/etc era in the early 70s had a lot of good stuff, Archie Goodwin's short editorship of Detective Comics in the mid-70s was fantastic, and the Steve Englehart/Marshall Rogers run in the late 70s is one of the best superhero runs ever.

A partial experimental comics canon would have to include, IMO:
Gary Panter - Jimbo in Purgatory, etc.
Martin Vaughn-James - The Cage
Mark Beyer - Amy and Jordan, Agony
Abstract Comics anthology
Kramers Ergot 4-8
Richard McGuire - Here
Yuichi Yokoyama - Travel
Michael Deforge - Lose, etc.
John Hankiewicz - Asthma
Mary Fleener - Life of the Party
Jim Woodring - everything
Tom Neely - The Blot
A sampling of Fort Thunder stuff (Mat Brinkmann, Brian Chippendale)
Lorenzo Mattotti - Chimera, etc.
Richard Hahn - Lumakick
Julia Gfrorer - Flesh and Bone, etc.
Warren Craghead III - How to Be Everywhere
Joshua Cotter - Driven by Lemons

I could keep going a long time with this but I'll stop.

[Melville]

A partial experimental comics canon would have to include, IMO:
Gary Panter - Jimbo in Purgatory, etc.
Martin Vaughn-James - The Cage
Mark Beyer - Amy and Jordan, Agony
Abstract Comics anthology
Kramers Ergot 4-8
Richard McGuire - Here
Yuichi Yokoyama - Travel
Michael Deforge - Lose, etc.
John Hankiewicz - Asthma
Mary Fleener - Life of the Party
Jim Woodring - everything
Tom Neely - The Blot
A sampling of Fort Thunder stuff (Mat Brinkmann, Brian Chippendale)
Lorenzo Mattotti - Chimera, etc.
Richard Hahn - Lumakick
Julia Gfrorer - Flesh and Bone, etc.
Warren Craghead III - How to Be Everywhere
Joshua Cotter - Driven by Lemons

Awesome. The only things I've read on there are Here, DeForge, Woodring, and (I think) a selection of Beyer. I remember someone on the old tcj forums touting The Cage as one of the all-time great demonstrations of comics' potential.

[sevenarts]

I remember someone on the old tcj forums touting The Cage as one of the all-time great demonstrations of comics' potential.

It's definitely that. It's one of comics' most revolutionary works. It used to be really tough to find - it was a private-press book in the 70s - but it was reissued a couple of years ago. It's the most challenging and truly experimental book I listed. Vaughn-James was not part of any established comics scene and approached his "visual novels" from a more literary/poetic perspective, so there's really not much else like his work. If you want to see what comics can be, but seldom actually are, definitely make that a priority.

[Melville]

It's definitely that. It's one of comics' most revolutionary works. It used to be really tough to find - it was a private-press book in the 70s - but it was reissued a couple of years ago. It's the most challenging and truly experimental book I listed. Vaughn-James was not part of any established comics scene and approached his "visual novels" from a more literary/poetic perspective, so there's really not much else like his work. If you want to see what comics can be, but seldom actually are, definitely make that a priority.
Looks like it's available from Amazon. Nice.

I just opened up my copies of the Ware-edited McSweeney's and the Brunetti-edited Anthology of Graphic Fiction and saw that a few things you mentioned are in there---including the original version of Here, which somehow I've completely forgotten ever having read before last year (when I read it online). I should read through those collections again. The experimental strip I remember most from them is Mark Newgarden's Nancy deconstruction. Loved that one.

[sevenarts]

I'd totally forgotten about that Newgarden strip, that's definitely a great one. I've only browsed that Brunetti anthology years ago (most of it is available elsewhere as I remember) but now that you brought it up I remember that Nancy deconstruction being a highlight of Newgarden's own collection. Very clever.

I think that McSweeney's anthology also has McGuire's strip "ctrl," one of his rare great comic works prior to the new long Here book.

I keep remembering more things I could list as we talk, the experimental stuff is one of my very favorite forms of comics. I should've certainly remembered Art Spiegelman's Breakdowns (pre-Maus formalist strips, really fantastic stuff), and Kevin Huizenga's work, especially Gloriana and Ganges (quiet, mundane narratives that use subtle, poetic formal conceits to delve into the thought process, nature, subjectivity, and sensation).

[Melville]

Overall, I wasn't a big fan of either of those anthologies. A lot of stuff I'd already read mixed with too much crudely drawn, stereotypical (at least at the time) indie stuff, which probably made me forget all the good stuff (Newgarden's strip has the advantage of appearing right at the front). Although flipping through them yesterday made me recall that I first read Brunetti's one-page Kierkegaard strip there, and that's one of my favorite things ever. And I recently read and loved Jeffrey Brown's very much crudely-drawn-stereotypical-indie-stuff Clumsy and loved it, so apparently I'm completely inconsistent about these things.

I've been meaning to check out Huizenga for years. I've never read any Spiegelman other than Maus, but I see Breakdowns is available dirt cheap.

Have you read Shintaro Kago's Abstraction? Probably the most explosive, thrilling experimental comic I've read, and one of my favorite comics in general. I love experiments that completely rupture the reality of the page. It's like a moment of discovery, the revelation of a new world. Although I also love Ware's most experimental stuff, which isn't really explosive in that way (but more than makes up for it by putting all the experimentation at the service of the pathos).

[sevenarts]

Those kinds of anthologies aren't really meant for the serious comic reader who's going to want all the actual works being excerpted. They're good as primers or introductions, though, both provide samples of some very fine work, and the McSweeney's issue at least has a few exclusive works like that McGuire piece I mentioned. That book is kinda weighed down by Ware's hand-wringing over the respect and legitimacy (or lack thereof) granted to comics as an artform. I find that strain of his work really tiresome and putting it in a forum designed to attract new readers is a recipe for failure: nobody wants to spend much time with that kind of insecurity.

I love Kago, he's a genius. "Abstraction" is his masterpiece but he's got a lot of really fascinating work that similarly destroys the reality of the comic page, like "Blow-Up," "Multiplication," "The Memories of Others," etc. He's got such a warped sense of humor and bizarre set of interests married to a genuinely formalist, experimental aesthetic, it's such a weird and appealing combination. Some of his lesser-known stuff is seriously goofy and outlandish. Apparently a lot of his work appears in Japan in scat fetish magazines. I guess the prurient aspect has prevented anyone in the US from trying to collect it; I'm surprised Picturebox never got around to it while they were still open. A big book gathering most of his stuff together in one spot would be an amazing, schizophrenic read.

[Melville]

I'm not sure I ever even read most of the text pieces in the McSweeney's issue, but I remember Ware having some interesting things to say about Philip Guston. I like his insecurity, but more when it's bitterly ironic and written in 5pt font on a back cover. Going off on a tangent...I know he's been trying to move past the bitter irony of his early work, but I think that's led to more middlebrow storytelling in some of his recent output; his stories themselves have always been painfully emotional, and I loved how the pain combined with the irony. Building Stories, despite its beautiful packaging, felt so much more middle-of-the-road than anything he did prior. Except those bee stories. Those were great.

I'll check out the McGuire strip for sure.

Nice to see another Kago fan. He's awesome. Definitely in need of a published collection regardless of his stories' origin in guro and scat magazines. Have you read Holes? Not so experimental, but a brilliant story of psychosexual horror.

[D_Davis]

Have you read this?

https://ninobaby.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/6a00e398d193e8000300fa96928c24 0002.jpg

If not, highly recommended.

[Melville]

Have you read this?
No, I haven't read any Matsumoto. I've got GoGo Monster on my reading list, but I don't remember if I had any reason to pick that one. If you've read both, how do they compare?

[D_Davis]

I have not read that, but I probably should at some point.

[sevenarts]

Tekkon Kinkreet and GoGo Monster are similar in quality, both are great in different ways; the former is livelier and wilder, the latter quieter and more subtle, but I'd have a tough time picking between them. Matsumoto's a pretty important creator and anything by him is well worth reading. Tekkon Kinkreet's probably his most famous/iconic work.

[Melville]

I'll probably check out Tekkon Kinkreet first. Its plot synopsis sounds more interesting.

New, ever-expanding reading list:

To read more of/continue reading
Alias
Azzarello's Wonder Woman
Criminal
Deadly Class
DeForge - everything
Duncan the Wonder Dog
Enigma
Fade Out
Hickman's Avengers/New Avengers/Secret Wars
Lazarus
Low
Miracleman
Morrison - Batman, Final Crisis, Doom Patrol, The Filth, Flex Mentallo
Nijigahara Holograph
Palomar
Pretty Deadly
Prophet
Secret Avengers

To read/start reading
Alec: The Years Have Pants
The Arrival
Black Science
Black is the Color
The Blot
Bottomless Belly Button
Cages
Carl Barks' duck comics
A Child's Life and Other Stories
Copra
Curses/Ganges
Dogs and Water
Finder
How to Be Happy
La Perdida
Locas
Mind Mgmt
Mother Come Home
My Trouble with Women
Nao of Brown
One! Hundred! Demons!
Poor Bastard
Safe Area Gorazde
Saga of the Swamp Thing
Sandman Mystery Theatre
Scalped
Scott Pilgrim
Skyscrapers of the Midwest
Stitches
Killing and Dying
Through the Woods
The Wrenchies
X'ed Out/The Hive/Sugar Skull
Roy Thomas & Barry Windsor-Smith - Red Nails

Old-timey superheroes
Nick Fury - Steranko
Doctor Strange - Ditko & Lee
Fantastic Four - Kirby & Lee

Old-timey genre comics
Alex Toth - Warren comics, Standard comics
Alex Raymond - Rip Kirby
Milton Caniff - Terry & the Pirates
Wally Wood - Cannon
The Spirit
Mad (Kurtzman era)
EC war comics
EC horror comics
EC crime comics
EC sci-fi comics
Simon & Kirby - romance comics
Creepy/Eerie

sevenarts' experimental comics canon
Gary Panter - Jimbo in Purgatory, etc.
Martin Vaughn-James - The Cage
Mark Beyer - Amy and Jordan, Agony
Abstract Comics anthology
Kramers Ergot 4-8
John Hankiewicz - Asthma
Mary Fleener - Life of the Party
A sampling of Fort Thunder stuff (Mat Brinkmann, Brian Chippendale)
Richard Hahn - Lumakick
Joshua Cotter - Driven by Lemons
Spiegelman - Breakdowns
Yuichi Yokoyama - Travel
Warren Craghead III - How to Be Everywhere

European and South American
Alberto Breccia - Mort Cinder, Lovecraft adaptations, Perramus
Enrique Alcatena
Vittorio Giardino - A Jew in Communist Prague
Guido Buzzelli
Tiziano Sclavi - Dylan Dog
Sergio Toppi - The Collector
Guido Crepax - The Magic Lantern
François Schuiten
Tardi - crime comics
Torpedo
Mattotti - Stigmata, Fires
The Photographer
Moomin
Miss Don't Touch Me
Beautiful Darkness
Hugo Pratt - Corto Maltese
Moebius - Arzach, Airtight Garage
Blacksad
The Secret History

Manga
Astro Boy
What a Wonderful World
Tekkon Kinkreet
The Push Man and Other Stories
Planetes
Pluto
Lone Wolf and Cub
Uzumaki
Nausicaä of the Valley of Wind
Phoenix
Oji Suzuki - A Single Match
Yoshihiro Tsuge - Screw-Style
Barefoot Gen
Onward Toward Our Noble Deaths

[Melville]

Anyone ever read Alberto Breccia? (Does Grouchy ever look at this thread?) I just read Breccia's brilliantly stark adaptation of The Tell-Tale Heart: http://professorhswaybackmachine.blog spot.co.uk/2015/05/poe-1975-pt16.html
All his books look amazing: https://mercurialblonde.wordpress.com/2013/08/12/alberto-breccia-is-the-greatest-and-other-things-i-say-in-mixed-company/
But I'm not sure if any English editions are available.

[Grouchy]

YES, Breccia is a comic-book genius and has spawned three children who are also artists. What he does with shadows is amazing. If you liked that adaptation, you should check out the one for The Decapitated Chicken (http://www.taringa.net/Inefablementerotica/mi/ZKFj8) by Horacio Quiroga. And of course Perramus is excellent.

The only reason I don't talk more about Argentine comic-books in here is that, like you, I'm not sure they are even translated for you guys to read. But since you brought up Breccia (who is quite respected by people who know their comics) I'm going to suggest you check out the work of Quique Alcatena (https://www.google.com.ar/search?q=quique+alcatena&espv=2&biw=1536&bih=758&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIjsmbvNKDy AIVwQ2QCh2q_g6a) at some point, who is a lot more underappreciated in my opinion.

[sevenarts]

I loved Alcatena's Golden Age-style Batman on the Clayface story he drew for Alan Grant. Probably the best way he's known, if at all, to English-speaking audiences. Maybe none of it is translated, but do you have any recommendations for other stuff to check out by him?

[Grouchy]

Practically everything he did with scripts by Eduardo Mazzitelli:

Liquid Steel
Shankar
Imperator
The Moon of the Bull
Hexmoor
The Maralha Lineage
Transworld
Barlovento

Translations of the titles by me, so I doubt the actual comics are translated. If anyone wants to pay me for it I'll do it.

[Melville]

I started on Morrison's Batman run. He's hit or miss with me, but the RIP arc was exhilarating superhero phantasmagoria.


The only reason I don't talk more about Argentine comic-books in here is that, like you, I'm not sure they are even translated for you guys to read. But since you brought up Breccia (who is quite respected by people who know their comics) I'm going to suggest you check out the work of Quique Alcatena (https://www.google.com.ar/search?q=quique+alcatena&espv=2&biw=1536&bih=758&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIjsmbvNKDy AIVwQ2QCh2q_g6a) at some point, who is a lot more underappreciated in my opinion.
Yeah, I had Alcatena on my to-read list on the basis of a page from Ulrik el Negro, but I had no idea which of his books to seek out. I'll look for his collaborations with Mazzitelli. And, I guess, hope for some translations. I'd be happy to pay for translations, but only if they went directly onto high-quality digital scans, which seems very labor-intensive. Comics companies need to get busy with this.

[Grouchy]

I was only half joking! I did translations before, including an entire essay on the Trail of Tears for my mother who's a novelist of some fame. I don't know how to go about speaking to publishing companies about this but it's a job I'd be happy to do more often.

[Melville]

As a tangent to my Morrison Batman reading, I read his Final Crisis. The choppiness of some of his stuff bothers me, but here it's so dominant that it becomes fascinating. Choppy incoherence as a narrative design element. (A review I saw when rating it on goodreads complained that it reads like Morrison threw every story idea he had into a blender, which is also apt, if less generous.) Overall, it was a pretty compelling story about the metaphysics of stories. It definitely adds something to the Batman comics. And like in All-Star Superman, I love how Morrison says something is impossible but then has Superman do it anyway. Because he's Superman.

[Sven]

I find that with FC, all you really need is Superman Beyond. Those two issues say it all. Everything else relies a bit too much on ancillary content, though I agree is fascinating in its own right for that reason. To me it reads like a very stylish DC almanac.

[Melville]

I find that with FC, all you really need is Superman Beyond. Those two issues say it all. Everything else relies a bit too much on ancillary content, though I agree is fascinating in its own right for that reason. To me it reads like a very stylish DC almanac.
Yeah, a lot of the time the main series felt like it was just an application of the ideas in Superman Beyond. But the Flashes outracing death and Batman's magic bullet were both great. Those issues of Batman worked so much better in the context of a worldwide anti-life apocalypse.

[number8]

I confess I don’t read many comics these days, chiefly those by my current Avatar stable-mates. So that would be Garth Ennis’s always-powerful War Stories along with anything else that the man happens to put out; Si Spurrier’s excellent and reinvigorated Crossed + 100 and his forthcoming Cry Havoc from Image; Kieron Gillen’s spectacular Mercury Heat, Phonogram, The Wicked + The Divine and, whenever he gets his lazy arse into gear, the next run of the exemplary Über; and, as mentioned earlier, the incredible Brian Vaughn’s concept-crammed Saga.

That is a lot more than I figured he'd be reading.

[D_Davis]

Got some e-comics to read on my vaycay.

The Fall of Cthulhu omnibus
Sunny Vol. 1 (Taiyo Matsumoto)
Saga of the Swamp Thing Vol. 3
Dark Horse Horror Sampler

[Grouchy]

I think I've said this before, but I love Saga for its completely original space opera concepts. I sort of hate it for its clumsy dialogue and characterization.

Everything else he mentioned I'm writing down as a recommendation.

[D_Davis]

The few issues of Saga I read were among the worst things I've ever read. He's a terrible writer.

[number8]

It's funny that Saga is the only thing he's recommending that he seems to actually discovered on his own. Everything else are by Gillen, Ennis, and Spurrier, who are the three people Moore writes Crossed with. I mean, they're excellent books regardless, but it does seem like he's recommending them out of professional politeness.

[D_Davis]

Is that new Archie comic as good as people are saying?

[number8]

...which one? There are several.

[D_Davis]

This one
https://www.comixology.com/Archie-2015-1/digital-comic/226354

[number8]

I liked it. It's fun and really well done, but unlike other recent Archie books that are praised for their stories, this one is just trying to be a quintessential Archie comic, so it's exactly what it needs to be, which is a lighthearted all-ages teen romantic comedy about the Archie/Betty/Veronica love triangle and not much more.

It's also pretty obvious that Fiona Staples divides her time with a heavier lean on Saga. Her art here is less detailed.

[D_Davis]

I really like the art.

Wish the issues weren't $3.99 each, though.

I'll check out the first trade when its available.

Oh yeah, I also bought Prophet Vol. 1.

[Melville]

Have you read Afterlife with Archie? I was surprised how great it is even after repeatedly hearing it's great.

[D_Davis]

Have you read Afterlife with Archie? I was surprised how great it is even after repeatedly hearing it's great.

Looking into it. Looks cool.

[megladon8]

Anyone read "Here" yet?

[D_Davis]

I Am a Hero - read it here, have your mind blown. (http://www.mangareader.net/i-am-a-hero)

incredible art.

[Melville]

Anyone read "Here" yet?
Me, sevenarts, and (I think) dreamdead. Great comic. Interesting formal examination of the interaction of time with place. I prefer the original, short version for its experimental punch, but they're both worth reading.

[Melville]

For me it works for the same reason as a movie like Serene Velocity (though it never mesmerized or energized me like that movie). By reorganizing the basic elements of time and space, it lets us examine them anew by pulling them away from our everyday intuition of them.

[[ETM]]

Dave McKean drew Batman on my copy of Arkham Asylum today. I'm over the fucking moon right now. Such a rarely awesome day and such an amazing artist.

[D_Davis]

Finished a re-read of All Star Superman. So good. What are some other Superman books I should read?

read seven chapters of The Fall of Cthulhu. Really liking it.

Also read the first five chapters of I Am the Hero. Probably the best traditional manga art I've ever seen. Every page is a masterful example of format paper shading and detailed manga-realism. I've never been as impressed by art as I am with this manga.

[megladon8]

Superman books - "It's a Bird!" and "Secret Identity"

[Melville]

Spent Christmas day reading comics (interspersed with advocaat). My conclusion: Scott Pilgrim really isn't very good.

[megladon8]

Spent Christmas day reading comics (interspersed with advocaat). My conclusion: Scott Pilgrim really isn't very good.


Agreed. The only appeal I can see is for fanatics of old school video gaming, a group I don't belong to.

The whole thing is a video game in joke. Fine and good for those into that sort of thing, but a lot of it is yawn worthy to me.

[Melville]

Agreed. The only appeal I can see is for fanatics of old school video gaming, a group I don't belong to.

The whole thing is a video game in joke. Fine and good for those into that sort of thing, but a lot of it is yawn worthy to me.
I can see a lot of people liking it just because they can relate to it. It definitely captures a certain kind of everyday modern life, particularly in its central portrait of an early-20s guy stuck in adolescence, chronically avoiding responsibility, and struggling with romantic relationships.

But the actual execution feels pretty weak and sometimes downright obnoxious to me. Many of the characters are visually indistinguishable. The art goes from a bit clumsy in the first book to overly clean and cute in the fourth. Its blase, inconsistent attitude toward Scott's jackassery (e.g., his treatment of Knives) is irritating. The battles often feel incongruous (whereas the movie achieves a more consistently heightened tone that makes them feel natural). And Ramona, and Scott's relationship with her, is just so poorly developed. I have no sense of her character at all. And not in a "she's mysterious and unpredictable" way. She's just a blank.

I was surprised by how much I liked the movie. Now I'm surprised how little I like the comic.

[Dukefrukem]

My girlfriend bought me Daredevil: The Man Without Fear and Batman: The Killing Joke for Christmas. Didnt even know she knew I liked comics that much.


Superman books - "It's a Bird!" and "Secret Identity"


If I wanted to read the mess after the Death of Superman where would i start? (like the stuff with Steel, Hank Henshaw, and when Hal Jordon goes on that massive killing spree before Superman shows up again)

[ledfloyd]

I got The Complete Eightball for Christmas. It's so well put together. They reprint the front and back covers around each issue, the first four issues are reprinted on that newsprint-type paper that Vertigo uses rather than the traditional glossy paper as they were during the initial runs. So much attention to detail. It's a lovely package.

[megladon8]

If I wanted to read the mess after the Death of Superman where would i start? (like the stuff with Steel, Hank Henshaw, and when Hal Jordon goes on that massive killing spree before Superman shows up again)

I honestly don't know! I never really read much into that storyline.

Superman comics kinda sucked for a long while until the early 2000s.

[Grouchy]

If I wanted to read the mess after the Death of Superman where would i start? (like the stuff with Steel, Hank Henshaw, and when Hal Jordon goes on that massive killing spree before Superman shows up again)
World Without a Superman and The Return of Superman.

[Melville]

Best books of 2015?

My list:

1. First Year Healthy (DeForge)
2. Hawkeye (Fraction & Aja et al)
3. Zero (Kot et al)
4. MIND MGMT (Kindt)
5. The Last Saturday (Ware)
6. Dressing & Lose #7 (DeForge)
7. Virgil (Orlando & Faith)
8. Deadly Class (Remender, Craig, and Loughridge)
9. Airboy (Robinson & Hinkle)
10. Stray Bullets: Sunshine & Roses

HMs: Southern Bastards, Lazarus, Bitch Planet, The Humans

The Fade Out should probably be on there, but it's such a slow burn that I feel like I need to read the whole thing at once. I completely forget all details of the plot between issues.

[sevenarts]

1. Stray Bullets: Sunshine & Roses (David Lapham)
2. Time Runs Out/Secret Wars (Jonathan Hickman & various)
3. Love and Rockets: New Stories #7 (Hernandez brothers)
4. Dark Corridor (Rich Tommaso)
5. Hip Hop Family Tree (Ed Piskor)
6. Island (various)
7. East of West (Jonathan Hickman & Nick Dragotta)
8. Crickets #4-5 (Sammy Harkham)
9. The Spire (Simon Spurrier & Jeff Stokeley)
10. Ms. Marvel (G. Willow Wilson & various)

11. Velvet (Ed Brubaker & Steve Epting)
12. Nameless (Grant Morrison & Chris Burnham)
13. Copra (Michel Fiffe)
14. Lose #7 (Michael DeForge)
15. Sex Criminals (Matt Fraction & Chip Zdarsky)
16. Twilight Children (Gabriel Hernandez & Darwin Cooke)
17. The Fade Out (Ed Brubaker & Sean Phillips)
18. Pope Hats #4 (Ethan Rilly)
19. The Wicked + The Divine (Kieron Gillen & various)
20. Head Lopper (Andrew MacLean)

[Melville]

Hey, sevenarts, have you read Youth in Decline's Frontier?

[sevenarts]

I will now - saw Deforge and Davis had issues and that was enough for me to order some.

[Melville]

It and Copra are two books I'd like to read but find prohibitively expensive to buy overseas. I might try the electronic subscription for Frontier.

[Melville]

Martin Vaughn-James The Cage stunned me more than any comic I've read since The Trumpets They Play! It's Beckett's deconstruction through disintegration (and his tumbling words), Tarr's immanent apocalypse, the last minutes of L'Eclisse, a self-referencing machine, a metaphor machine in comics form. One of the best things I've ever read.

[number8]

Friend of mine's top ten list if you're looking for lesser known new comics to try:

http://doomcarousel.tumblr.com/post/136699304669/2015-comics-the-best-ones-i-read

[Melville]

Friend of mine's top ten list if you're looking for lesser known new comics to try:

http://doomcarousel.tumblr.com/post/136699304669/2015-comics-the-best-ones-i-read
Referencing Abstraction and The Cage in the opening paragraph won me over to his list pretty quick.

[number8]

Haha, that's why I posted it.

[Melville]

I'll try to check out everything on there. A bunch were already on my radar, but some, like Extract, I'd never even heard of.

[Melville]

I'd been waiting to get Black River cheap, but its appearance on that list inspired me to continue my excessive comics buying.

[Melville]

I'd been waiting to get Black River cheap, but its appearance on that list inspired me to continue my excessive comics buying.
It was worth it.

[Sven]

Hey. These were my five favorite comics from last year. The ones where every new issue gave my heart a skip:

1 All-Star Section Eight - truly, truly special
2 Transformers v. GI Joe - the great American masterpiece
3 Secret Wars (+ many ancillaries) - crossover event for the ages
4 God is Dead - brilliantly unpredictable
5 Imperium - oozes sinister compassion

Runners Up: Starve, Divinity, Low, Airboy, Trees, Nameless, Ninjak, Terminal Hero, Copra.

[Sven]

Giving Hitman a reread and it's powerfully making irrelevant so many of my favorite comics. How? By being an exemplar of brilliant artwork and dialogue-writing, skirting a style that gets so many jolleys veering into slapstick/absurd territory but careering the narrative and characterizations into truly darker, more refined zones. Zones that remind one while reading it of the vast gamut of human experience out there, funny sad, noble, puerile, angry, devoted, scared, lustful, repulsed, amused, etc etc.

It's basically perfect.

[number8]

Speaking of Ennis, apparently he's testing out working at Image...


Creatively there’s no difference between Image and Dynamite or Avatar, where I’ve done the bulk of my work for the past ten years- but it’s a chance to test them out, as I say. I look at deals, rates, competence, things like that- no complaints so far.

http://thegww.com/finding-a-new-home-with-image-comics-a-garth-ennis-interview/

[Sven]

I like to think I'm pretty quick on the uptake. It is only just today I finally got that New Romancer = neuromancer. Doy!

My LCS just gave me a retailer incentive copy of V's 4001 AD. It looks so baller. Can't wait.

[Sven]

Here's a breakdown of today's acquisitions, responded to in the order in which they were engaged:

Archer and Armstrong 1: this here's the new series by Rafer Roberts (better artist than writer) and David Lafuente (whom I like better when he's doing bonkers designs as opposed to the manga-steeped modesty he's delivering here). It's a fine, zippy read that is worthy of the A&A schtick.

Second Sight 2: quease-inducing. Hine's not lost his knack for twisted and Ponticelli has a great gift for evocative blocking, as well as his gnarly line work and expressive shading. This is gonna be a tremendous book. AfterShock is hitting homeruns all over the place.

Injection 8: I'm loving this suprameta period that Ellis is bathing in right now, even if I think Trees, his more straightforward current book, is one of the best things he's done, this plus Supreme Rose, Blackcross, and Moon Knight are among his strongest works.

Wrath of the Eternal Warrior 5: Goddamn, Bellaire and Ryp should've teamed up years ago. This and their work on the Geomancer event have carved a place for their collaboration among the greats. Although Venditti's writing was suited more for the design-minded Raoul Allen, Ryp lives up to the challenge and presses against the parameters of the medium's limitations doing so. The textures achieved here, and the unique pull between Venditti's simplicity and Ryp's complexity, make for a great read.

Imperium 14: Ack. Worst book of the week, which is a tragedy. Until this week, this has been among the top of my most anticipated titles. I think I lay the blame on Khari Evans, whose work I've never really liked too much. Static action, ugly faces, generic pacing. Dysart's script, unfortunately, does appear to bear some of these hallmarks as well. It could be a publisher mandate to reintroduce HardCORPS, but I'm a touch disappointed...

Devolution 3: The artwork is so much fun that even if the story was bad, it would be worth the purchase. Luckily, the story is a wonderful twist on the zombification concept, and has some wonderful monsters and nasties. Great elastic art from Wayshak.

Low 12: Wow. I lolled, major, during the final few pages. May have even said aloud "Remender, what the f#$% are you doing?" I'm unsure about this plot development, but Remender reliably brought the whole thing together with gravitas and perspective. Typically jawdropping work from Tocchini and McCaig. But seriously...

Starve 7: Fairly certain this is the greatest book on the stands now. The kitchen sequences are beautiful, courtesy of Zezelj's brilliance. With issue 6, Wood completely blew my mind by eschewing the seduction of the concept and using it, instead, as a springboard to plunge into bigger, more essential things. Love it so much.

[number8]

I kinda wish Trees and Injection have more distinctive design aesthetics. I sometimes confuse the scenes in my memory between them.

[slqrick]

Just read JMS' Supreme Power stuff for the first time...really, really good, Hyperion and Nighthawk are the best Batman/Superman analogues I've read and I was much more fascinated by Hyperion's character than I ever was with Superman. Definitely didn't feel that depth during Hickman's Avenger run.

[Irish]

8, did you see this from Mark Evanier?

http://www.newsfromme.com/2016/03/25/not-worlds-finest/

Curious what you (and any other regular reader of superhero comics) think of it.

[number8]

8, did you see this from Mark Evanier?

http://www.newsfromme.com/2016/03/25/not-worlds-finest/

Curious what you (and any other regular reader of superhero comics) think of it.

It is an understandable (and not uncommon) argument emotionally, but it's just factually incorrect to say that Batman had a defined mortal universe his stories was set in and that crossing him over with Superman and the rest of DC broke that world. Batman was fighting mad scientists and vampires and giant monster men in the early issues of Detective Comics. Batman stories were already paranormal and outlandish to begin with. I don't know if Evanier forgot, doesn't know, or was willingly ignoring the fact that shit like this regularly happened to Batman before he ever met Superman:

https://nothingbutcomics.files.wordpre ss.com/2014/05/detective-comics-34-flowers-with-faces.jpg

[sevenarts]

Evanier is off on that, it's a poor argument that conflates a number of things. As 8 says, within the first 5 or so Batman stories EVER, he faces off against vampires and giant monsters, so Batman's world always had elements of the fantastic.

Now it's true that the sci-fi Batman stories were often bad and forced, and that Superman was indirectly to blame. Bat editor Jack Schiff, faced with relatively low sales, copied the formula of Superman editor Mort Weisinger, introducing stuff like Ace the Bat Hound (aka Krypto), Bat-Mite (aka Mr. Mxyzptlk), and giving Batman and Robin romantic interests in Batwoman and Bat-Girl. Schiff was also copying successful Silver Age revivals which tended to focus on sci-fi themes. I wouldn't defend this stuff: most, though certainly not all, of it is really bad indeed.

But those bad stories don't mean that Batman can't function in this world at all, and later stories, particularly those of Grant Morrison (in JLA and later his Batman run), have found a coherent place for Batman in a world of heroes who can fly and see through walls and breathe in outer space. Even well before Morrison there were plenty of stories - by Mike Barr, Frank Miller, etc. - that worked well in that kind of context. It's foolish to suggest that Batman as a concept falls apart in a shared superhero universe. It only falls apart, as it often did in those old stories, when he was forced to be something he's not, but that's certainly not a necessity.

[number8]

Oh my god, the Mercury Heat/Crossed crossover is hilarious.

Did anyone read this?

[Melville]

I just finished The Girl from H.O.P.P.E.R.S., the second Locas book in the current series of mid-size Love & Rockets collections. Despite feeling uninterested in the stories for much of the book, by the end I realized I was digging it; the cumulative effect is much greater than the sum of its parts. And the art is gorgeous.

I'm going to go back and finish the first Locas book, which I'd abandoned early on, but I'm not sure where to go from there. Love Bunglers sounds most appealing. Would much be lost by skipping directly to that? On the one hand, the long-form storytelling style suggests that reading the whole series through would be most rewarding. On the other hand, I don't really feel compelled to read that many collections.

[sevenarts]

The beauty of Jaime Hernandez's work is its cumulative impact and ability to evoke growth and change over time. It's one of the best comics ever precisely because it does so much with time, aging, and long form characterization. If you read his stories as one big work, you can come to know these characters more intimately than pretty much anyone else in fiction. Love Bunglers is one of his very best stories, but it's so great because it's the climax of 20+ years of storytelling and history between the people in the stories. I suspect it would be great even without that history but there's no question a lot would be lost.

If you just want to skip to Jaime's best later works for some reason, read at least Ghost of Hoppers and Love Bunglers. But you'll be missing possibly the most essential facet of his art.

[Melville]

After now finishing the first two books, I think there's a pretty steady increase in quality from the beginning of the first to the end of the second, both in terms of art and writing (particularly the dialogue, which was sometimes very clunky when trying to be serious in the first book). So I'll probably take your advice and try to continue sequentially. I'll at least go for the third book before jumping around any further.

Regarding that steady increase in quality, I know people love The Death of Speedy, which comes early in the second book, but I didn't think much of it. The characters aren't developed enough by that point, especially Speedy himself, for the death to have any resonance for me. And there was too much lighthearted slapstick for me to take the story seriously. This was actually the second time I've read it, and both times I was baffled by people suggesting it as a jumping on point in the series.

[sevenarts]

Jaime definitely started out rough and took a while to figure out his direction and style - the earliest stuff, with its sci-fi trappings and goofy tone, quickly fell away in favor of more character-focused material. He's just kept getting better and better and I think by the end of book 3 you'll see him more fully formed. Keep in mind, he was real young when they started doing these comics, and as he's aged the characters over time he's grown a lot with them as an artist. It's one of the things I find most rewarding about his work and why I always recommend reading it all, even the comparatively rough early years.

[megladon8]

I'd totally forgotten that I preordered Nameless. Came the other day.

Anyone read this one?

[number8]

Yeah, it's tops, although I can't tell if it's supposed to be an ongoing or not.

[dreamdead]

So the Eisner nominations (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2016/04/19/2016-eisner-awards-the-oscars-of-comics-announces-record-number-of-nominations-for-women/) came out this week and the New Series nominations included Monstress , Paper Girls, and Bitch Planet. I usually delay until trades come out, so have these series delivered so far in terms of interesting material?

[number8]

Bitch Planet is one of the best series around. It's phenomenal. It's also one of the slew of Image books that is really worth it to get monthly because of the back material that I don't think is included in the trades, like the noir/old Hollywood articles in Brubaker's titles or Rucka's "this month in science journals" updates in Lazarus. In BP's case, every issue includes an essay about feminism and social justice.

Monstress is impressive world-building, but more importantly very gorgeous. Anyone who likes fantasy anime like Full Metal Alchemist and its ilk should check it out.

Paper Girls is standard BKV. Breezy read with TV-style twists and cheesy dialogue.

[Melville]

So the Eisner nominations (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2016/04/19/2016-eisner-awards-the-oscars-of-comics-announces-record-number-of-nominations-for-women/) came out this week and the New Series nominations included Monstress , Paper Girls, and Bitch Planet. I usually delay until trades come out, so have these series delivered so far in terms of interesting material?
I didn't care for what I read of Paper Girls or Monstress, but I'll second number8's recommendation of Bitch Planet. It's very much in line with your interests. It's also a really fun, pulpy sci-fi provocation with great art.

[ledfloyd]

I should probably check out Bandette at some point.

Bitch Planet is fantastic. If you like BKV, you'll love Paper Girls. If not, then not.

Also, met Bill Griffith and Noah Van Sciver a few weeks ago. Both seemed like really cool people, so glad to see them getting nominations.

[Sven]

Alls I know is that every KSD I've read has been awful and the first two issues of BP didn't convince me otherwise. Obvious genre shoe-horning and terribly awkward dialogue. Stick with Di Campi's Grindhouse minis for better modern camp kitsch.

[number8]

This is a fantastic example of how important a colorist is: http://harveyjames.tumblr.com/post/143735873863/theory-frank-millers-recent-work-is-good-but-dc

[Grouchy]

He makes a valid point all things considered, but I still think he's being too kind with Frank's recent art. I mean, look at the last two covers on the article. On the first one Wonder Woman looks like a transvestite either way you colour it and on the second one Batgirl's anatomy is confusing and childish and her jump has no notion of movement or dynamism whatsoever.

By the way, I read Elektra: Assassin for the first time recently. That comic is insane. Back when Frank Miller knew how to be provocative without being a moron.

[Sven]

I like modern Frank. The Green Lantern insert in the second to last DKIII issue was amazing. Plus, 300 and Holy Terror are astonishing art books.

[ledfloyd]

This Grant Morrison FCBD book seems incredibly cliche.

[Skitch]

I play this game with a fb comic group where every week we try to guess the Florida lotto pick four to win comics offered by the admin. Thousands of entries every week. If no one wins, it rolls over to next week.

I just won 142 comic books. :D

[Grouchy]

Hahah awesome. What sort of stuff did you win?

[Skitch]

Ill post the list when I get home.

[Skitch]

Here's the list:



4001 AD # 1 , VALIANT , $3.99
A-FORCE # 4 , MARVEL , $3.99
A-FORCE # 5 , MARVEL , $3.99
ACTION COMICS # 50 , DC , $4.99
ACTION COMICS # 51 , DC , $4.99
ALL NEW WOLVERINE # 1 , MARVEL , $3.99
ALL NEW WOLVERINE # 6 , MARVEL , $3.99
ALL NEW WOLVERINE # 7 , MARVEL , $3.99
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN # 1.4 , MARVEL , $3.99
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN # 9 , MARVEL , $3.99
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN # 10 , MARVEL , $3.99
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN # 11 , MARVEL , $3.99
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN # 12 , MARVEL , $3.99
ANGELA QUEEN OF HELL VS THOR # 6 , $3.99
ARCHER AND ARMSTRONG # 1 , VALIANT , $3.99
BATMAN # 50 , DC , $5.99
BATMAN # 51 , DC , $3.99
BATMAN # 51 VARIANT , DC , $3.99
BATMAN & ROBIN ETERNAL # 23 , DC , $2.99
BATMAN & ROBIN ETERNAL # 24 , DC , $2.99
BATMAN & ROBIN ETERNAL # 25 , DC , $2.99
BATMAN DARK KNIGHT III # 4 , DC , $5.99
BATMAN DETECTIVE COMICS # 50 , DC , $4.99
BATMAN DETECTIVE COMICS # 50 BAGGED , DC , $4.99
BATMAN DETECTIVE COMICS # 51 BAGGED , DC , $4.99
BATMAN DETECTIVE COMICS # 52 , DC , $3.99
BATMAN SUPERMAN # 30 , DC , $3.99
BATMAN SUPERMAN # 30 BAGGED VARIANT , DC , $3.99
BLACK PANTHER # 1 , MARVEL , $4.99
BLADEBUNNY # 1 , AP , $3.99
BLOOD SHOT REBORN # 12 , VALIANT , $3.99
BLOODLINES # 1 , DC , $2.99
BLOODLINES # 2 , DC , $2.99
CAPTAIN AMERICA # 1 , MARVEL , $4.99
DAREDEVIL # 5 , MARVEL , $3.99
DAREDEVIL # 6 , MARVEL , $3.99
DARKSEID WAR , JUSTICE LEAGUE # 1 , DC , $3.99
DEATHSTROKE # 16 , DC , $2.99
DEATHSTROKE # 16 VARIANT , DC , $2.99
DEATHSTROKE # 17 , DC , $2.99
DEATHSTROKE # 17 VARIANT , DC , $2.99
DRAX # 5 , MARVEL , $3.99
EXTRAORDINARY X-MEN # 8 , MARVEL , $4.99
EXTRAORDINARY X-MEN # 8 VARIANT , MARVEL , $4.99
EXTRAORDINARY X-MEN # 9 , MARVEL , $3.99
FLASH # 49 , DC , $3.99
FLASH # 50 , DC , $4.99
FLASH # 51 , DC , $3.99
GREEN ARROW # 50 , DC , $4.99
GREEN LANTERN # 51 , DC , $3.99
GREEN LANTERN # 52 , DC , $3.99
GUARDUANS OF THE GALAXY # 6 , MARVEL , $3.99
GUARDUANS OF THE GALAXY # 7 , MARVEL , $3.99
GEWNPOOL # 0 , MARVEL , $4.99
GEWNPOOL # 1 , MARVEL , $4.99
HARLEY QUINN # 26 , DC , $3.99
HARLEY QUINN # 27 , DC , $3.99
HARLEY QUINN AND HER GANG OF HARLEYS # 1 , 3.99
HARLEY QUINN AND THE SUICIDE SQUAD # 1 , $4.99
HARLEYS LITTLE BLACK BOOK # 3 , DC , $4.99
HAUNTED HORROR # 21 , $4.99
HAUNTED LOVE # 1 , IDW , $4.99
HAUNTED LOVE # 2 , IDW , $4.99
HAUNTED LOVE # 3 , IDW , $4.99
HULK , TOTALLY AWESOME # 1 , MARVEL , $4.99
HULK , TOTALLY AWESOME # 4 , MARVEL , $4.99
HYPERION # 1 , MARVEL , $3.99
HYPERION # 2 , MARVEL , $3.99
ILLUMINATI # 1 , MARVEL , $3.99
INFINITY ENTITY # 1 , MARVEL , $3.99
INFINITY ENTITY # 2 , MARVEL , $3.99
INFINITY ENTITY # 3 , MARVEL , $3.99
INFINITY ENTITY # 4 , MARVEL , $3.99
INJUSTICE GODS AMONG US YEAR FIVE # 6 , DC , $2.99
INJUSTICE GODS AMONG US YEAR FIVE # 7 , DC , $2.99
INJUSTICE GODS AMONG US YEAR FIVE # 8 , DC , $2.99
INJUSTICE GODS AMONG US YEAR FIVE # 9 , DC , $2.99
INVINCIBLE # 127 , IMAGE , $2.99
INVINCIBLE IRON MAN # 8 , MARVEL , $3.99
INVINCIBLE IRON MAN # 9 , MARVEL , $3.99
JLA JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA # 8 , DC , $3.99
JUSTICE LEAGUE # 49 , DC , $3.99
LEGENDS OF TOMORROW # 1 , DC , $7.99
LEGENDS OF TOMORROW # 2 , DC , $7.99
MS MARVEL # 5 , MARVEL , $3.99
MS MARVEL # 6 , MARVEL , $3.99
NEW AVENGERS # 8 , MARVEL , $3.99
NEW AVENGERS # 9 , MARVEL , $3.99
NEW AVENGERS # 10 , MARVEL , $3.99
NEW AVENGERS # 11 , MARVEL , $3.99
OLD MAN LOGAN # 4 , MARVEL , $3.99
OLD MAN LOGAN # 5 , MARVEL , $3.99
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST # 1 , MARVEL , $3.99
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST # 2 , MARVEL , $3.99
SILK # 6 , MARVEL , $3.99
SILK # 7 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPAWN # 262 , IMAGE , 2.99
SPIDER-GWEN # 6 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDER-GWEN # 7 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDER-GWEN # 8 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDER-MAN / DEADPOOL # 2 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDER-MAN / DEADPOOL # 3 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDER-MAN / DEADPOOL # 4 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDER-MAN # 3 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDER-MAN 2099 # 8 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDER-MAN 2099 # 9 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDER-MAN 2099 # 10 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDER-WOMAN # 1 , MARVEL , $4.99
SPIDEY # 1 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDEY # 2 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDEY # 3 , MARVEL , $3.99
SPIDEY # 4 , MARVEL , $3.99
SQUADRON SUPREME # 5 , MARVEL , $3.99
SQUADRON SUPREME # 6 , MARVEL , $3.99
SUICIDE SQUAD # 18 , DC , $2.99
SUPERMAN # 50 , DC , $4.99
SUPERMAN # 51 , DC , $3.99
SUPERMAN # 51 VARIANT , DC , $3.99
SUPERMAN AMERICAN ALIEN # 5 , DC , $3.99
SUPERMAN AMERICAN ALIEN # 6 , DC , $3.99
SUPERMAN WONDER WOMAN # 27 , DC , $3.99
SUPERMAN WONDER WOMAN # 28 , DC , $3.99
SUPERMEN , THE COMING OF # 1 , DC , $3.99
SUPERMEN , THE COMING OF # 2 , DC , $3.99
SWAMP THING # 4 , DC , $2.99
THOR # 5 , MARVEL , $3.99
THOR # 5 VARIANT , MARVEL , $3.99
THOR # 6 , MARVEL , $3.99
UNCANNY AVENGERS # 7 , MARVEL , $3.99
UNCANNY AVENGERS # 8 , MARVEL , $3.99
UNCANNY X-MEN # 5 , MARVEL , $3.99
UNCANNY X-MEN # 6 , MARVEL , $3.99
UNCANNY X-MEN # 6 , MARVEL , $3.99
UNCANNY X-MEN # 7 , MARVEL , $3.99
WONDER WOMAN # 50 , DC , $4.99
WONDER WOMAN # 51 , DC , $3.99
WONDER WOMAN # 51 VARIANT , DC , $3.99
X-MEN WORST X-MAN EVER # 1 , MARVEL , $3.99
X-MEN WORST X-MAN EVER # 2 , MARVEL , $3.99
X-MEN WORST X-MAN EVER # 3 , MARVEL , $3.99
X-O MANOWAR # 45 , VALIANT , $3.99
X-O MANOWAR # 46 , VALIANT , $3.99

[ledfloyd]

RIP Darwyn Cooke

[Sven]

RIP Darwyn Cooke

Love New Frontier, but I'm mostly sad that the Parker books are now done at four. :(

[number8]

I was really looking forward to more, too.

[Grouchy]

Whaaaat? That's so shitty. Loved his style.

[Dukefrukem]

Anyone going to start reading Demonic?

[Sven]

I'm tempted to contribute my bi-annual current favorite writers list. So here it is!:

1 Matt Kindt
2 Paul Jenkins
3 Garth Ennis
4 Simon Spurrier
5 Alan Moore

All Brits but Kindt. New to this list are Alan Moore and Paul Jenkins. Moore, because I've always included him in the pantheon of "obviously he's great so there's no reason to include him on lists like this." But I've been so impressed lately with his current work, including his LOEGs, his Dodgem Logic, his online comics, etc etc, that I feel he has transcended envied "bona fide" territory back into the messier realm of the still-evolving. Jenkins, because when he lands, as he does in his recent Replica and Deathmatch series, his stories achieve lucid and often shocking emotional resonance. Best comparison is probably Peter David - exceptionally capable with characterization and dialogue, experts with formal structure. Ennis's new stuff is among his best (All Star Section Eight, oh man...). Spurrier is a genuine successor to Alan Moore's throne, a brilliant lexicologist and conceptualist. And Matt Kindt's present maelstrom of awesomeness with Valiant is a wonder to behold.

HMs: Milligan is winning back favor with The Discipline, Remender is firing on all cylinders (just wish he maybe was a little less cynical), Lapham's Stray Bullets is great but I miss the days when he was writing more.

[ledfloyd]

I found this super cool indie comics shop in Pittsburgh last week. They mostly carry Fantagraphics/Drawn & Quarterly/small press stuff. I picked up a few issues of Ganges, which I've never been able to get my hands on, but seems right up my alley. He also recommended I grab Hicksville, which I haven't had a chance to check out yet.

The downside of this is the place is so cool I'm going to end up paying his 15% off cover prices instead of getting shit more cheaply on Amazon.

[Skitch]

"Marvel Now" relaunching as "Marvel NOW!" this fall.

Cap works for Hydra. Siiiigh.

[TGM]

"Marvel Now" relaunching as "Marvel NOW!" this fall.

Cap works for Hydra. Siiiigh.

This and what was posted in the DC thread are precisely the kinda dumb stupid bullshit why I don't bother with a lot of American comics anymore these days. :\

[megladon8]

Just read Nameless.

I'm utterly lost. No clue what happened in that book.

[megladon8]

Any fans of Cullen Bunn around here?

[Dukefrukem]

Is there an easy way to find out what issue is inside what trade?

For example, if I wanted to read a trade that included Fantastic Four Issue #45, what trade would I buy?

[number8]

For something that old, you're not likely going to find a TPB for it the way modern comics are collected. Those early Marvel comics are only found in the giant collection omnibuses.

That issue is in here, I believe: https://www.amazon.com/Fantastic-Four-Omnibus-New-Printing/dp/0785185674/

[Dukefrukem]

Perfect. Thank you. How did you do that search?

[number8]

I knew about that omnibus series, so I just typed "Fantastic Four Omnibus" in Amazon and just looked at the description to see which issues are in which volume.

I think the Marvel.com database is usually pretty good.

[number8]

Oh, here, try this Wiki next time: http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Fantastic_Four_Vol_1_45

It doesn't list the omnibus I gave, though, so obviously it's not perfect.

[Dukefrukem]

Oh under publication notes. Nice. Ok thanks.

[sevenarts]

http://comicbookdb.com/issue.php?ID=28293

If you look up an issue on here, it will show all the collections in which it's been reprinted.

[Melville]

The unceremonious death of this thread is depressing. What ever happened to Sven?

[Skitch]

I bought a bunch of old "Dark Horse Presents" and a small run of Stray Bullets, if that helps. :D

[Melville]

Stray Bullets is good stuff. Especially Killers.

[Skitch]

Thats the one I got! I picked one random issue out of a 25cent bin, then my LCS sale put all their indy titles under 10$ to 50cents and I bought the rest of the run (except for one missing issue).

[Irish]

Twenty-five years ago, seven acclaimed artists ditched their Marvel overlords and started a comic-book rebellion. They called it Image, and it rewrote the industry playbook. This is how the founders revolutionized an industry and launched a new generation of stars and ‘The Walking Dead’ juggernaut.

https://theringer.com/image-comics-25-year-anniversary-the-walking-dead-e4774b7bffcd#.kmy88a42b

[Dead & Messed Up]

Anyone give the Dark Tower comics a go? What'd you think?

Finished "The Long Road Home," "Treachery," "Fall of Gilead," and "Battle at Jericho Hill" over the past few weeks, and felt really strange that none of them really got me going. "Fall of Gilead" came close in a Revenge of the Sith Order 66 sorta way, but the narration deals too much in cliche and stating the obvious, and the dialogue felt too formal, or what a teenager might think regal people talk like. Jae Lee's artwork is absolutely gorgeous with its thick gradients and widescreen compositions.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Grant Morrison's Nameless. Imagine some sort of secret experimental gene-splice of Eternal Darkness, Event Horizon, and Jacob's Ladder. It's sorta like that, but really obtuse and chasing the same sort of mythic dream stream-of-conscious talismanic... uh, whatever it is that Morrison was chasing with Kid Eternity. Insanely graphic but arresting imagery. Sorta gathers its forces at the end with some philosophical pessimism and a unique take on God as a concept, but I prefer Morrison's intellectual ambitions chased down with more conventional (re: comprehensible) storytelling. Animal Man, We3. All-Star Superman.

[number8]

I'm sad that it ended up being a miniseries. It seemed like it was going to expand on it more, and become less obtuse as it went on, but then it didn't.

[number8]

In case you missed it, these are the two biggest comic news of the year, in my book:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/legendary-comics-editor-karen-berger-signs-dark-horse-create-new-imprint-977405

https://www.idwpublishing.com/shelly-bond-launch-creator-owned-imprint-idw-publishing/

Vertigo is extra dead.

[number8]

ComicsAlliance is shutting down today. Sad.

[Melville]

Paper Girls is really fun.

[ledfloyd]

Paper Girls is really fun.

I read the second trade a week or two ago. I'm on board, as I am with most things BKV.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Number8 actually recommended Ex Machina to me some time ago, so just popping in to say I finished the first TPB and will be going back to the library very soon for the next volume. Excellent. Already my favorite Vaughn so far.

[Melville]

I'm actually not at all a fan of Vaughn, and I've criticized him in this thread in the past (though I thought the first couple volumes of Ex Machina were all right). But the combination of killer art, 80's-camaraderie nostalgia, and wacky storytelling in Paper Girls is great. So far my only complaint is that the lead characters haven't been given especially distinct personalities.

[number8]

Chiang is the main reason to check out Paper Girls.

[Grouchy]

I think Vaughan is a good plotter but a terrible writer of dialogue. He makes his characters all sound exactly the same.

[ledfloyd]

I'm actually not at all a fan of Vaughn, and I've criticized him in this thread in the past (though I thought the first couple volumes of Ex Machina were all right). But the combination of killer art, 80's-camaraderie nostalgia, and wacky storytelling in Paper Girls is great. So far my only complaint is that the lead characters haven't been given especially distinct personalities.

Yeah. It has a Amblin Pictures vibe.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Y the Last Man didn't really scratch my itches - it was more conceptually clever than engaging most times (I liked the melancholy of the final stretch). Think what's working in Ex Machina right now is how the politicking is really just one goddamn thing after the other, and every solution results in a fresh sort of fallout, and how that plays as more interesting than the (still-interesting) mystery with the sigil that's making people nuts (that's mercifully backgrounded; too much severe gore-horror, and I start to check out, like with Crossed and Nameless). One thing I appreciated was the subversion of the mad bomber in the first handful of issues. If I were to level a criticism right now, it'd probably be that the hero feels a little self-consciously idealized.

Going forward, I'll look at the dialogue.

[Melville]

ComicsAlliance is shutting down today. Sad.
I just realized this means no more "Best Comic Books Ever (this week)", which I check pretty regularly for what's coming out. That's a shame.

[Sven]

The unceremonious death of this thread is depressing. What ever happened to Sven?

Hullo. Thx for missing me. I'm just not online much these days. (coincidentally, I'm listening to "Visions of Johanna" right this second, which is the main page subtext on some of these forum links, which was put their by Raiders, who has also made himself scarce these years)

Still reading comix tho! Present favorite is Remender's Renaissance with Low, Deadly Class, Black Science, Deevolution, and Seven to Eternity, which have all been among the great comix works of recent days. James Robinson's comeback has been welcome, especially with his dynamite Dynamite mini Grand Passion, but Airboy was a small masterpiece too. Scioli's Super Powers backups in the surprisingly awesome Cave Carson Has a Magnetic Eye are my new favorite things on the planet.

Oh, and Ellis's The Wild Storm.

[Melville]

Airboy and Deadly Class are both great. I'm also still following Low despite (or because of?) the ridiculous extents of its theme-serving, but overall I find Remender's darkness a bit contrived and hamfisted. What did you think of the issue 26 twistin Deadly Class? The execution was so gangbusters that I didn't mind it potentially devaluing the story's dramatic weight.

Speaking of Tom Scioli, I'm waiting for you to drop into the Hasbro Cinematic Universe thread to tell us why it's a great idea.

[Melville]

I read all 35 issues of Sam Kieth's The Maxx the other day. I was 10 years old when it first came out, and reading its idiosyncratic tales of fertility symbols and trauma, Paglia and Dr Seuss, rabbit heroes and suppressed pain—not to mention its art deco layouts and wonderfully gristly, splayed inks—was a formative experience for me. But by the time I was 13 and it was at issue 25, I'd given up on it, after thinking it had started to go off the rails somewhere around issue 10* and only gotten worse from there.

Surprisingly, upon rereading it, I find myself in complete agreement with my young self. The art gets really sloppy really quickly, even if the sloppiness is often counterbalanced by the expressive cartoony flourishes and demasculinized-Frazetta-style paintings. It often looks horribly rushed, and you can tell where the "finisher" was actually drawing entire panels. Like the art, after a while the story meanders somewhat incoherently. It feels stretched out while still leaving pieces of the narrative clumsily undeveloped (especially some of the character relationships), it's littered with inconsistencies, and it keeps covering the same ground, intent on resolving mysteries that didn't need resolving or already felt resolved early on.

It also turns out I didn't miss much when I dropped it at issue 25: the storytelling in the final 10 issues becomes even worse, possibly due to Kieth taking over full scripting duties. His writing desperately needed a defter touch. It's overly expository and blunt, and it frequently devolves into bad psychoanalytical goop. There are a couple interesting stories about adolescence, and it maintains an appealing sympathy for all us weirdos, but the only really compelling thing in those last 10 issues is the "cycle of abuse" life story of the series' "villain". Like everything else, it feels tainted by flimsy psych 101 concepts, but it's easily the most powerfully told story in the second half of the series.

Looking back, I think what kept my interest going when I was young, and what provided a lot of the story's impact, came from the extensive letters pages, which were an engrossing mix of interpretations, absurd humor, and personal confessions. That sense of community was great, and in a meta way, the letters (and Kieth's responses) created depth, nuance, and narrative connective tissue that may sometimes have been missing in the story itself.

I still appreciate the distinctness of its oddness, though. And I still love the first 5 issues unreservedly.


* Issue 10 itself is great, but it stands out from some pretty shoddy issues around it.

[number8]

In case anyone's wondering what I think the best DC superhero book is, it has been Steve Orlando's run on Midnighter.

[megladon8]

No one here talked about the X-Men Gold art fiasco?

[Ezee E]

No one here talked about the X-Men Gold art fiasco?

What is it?

[Skitch]

I talked to my LCS owner about it, just for his reaction. I'd probably have more feelings about it if I was collecting current X-Men. As it is, I feel like I should have some feelings about it, but I don't really feel much about it. Maybe I don't understand it all? Am I missing something? Should I be more outraged by either side?

I'm more annoyed by the flippers buying stacks of em like its the Death of Superman all over again. So weird.

[number8]

I'm pretty ambivalent about it other than feeling really strange that a local political issue from my hometown that I read family members and old friends talking about on FB months ago is suddenly a hot topic in American pop culture. That has been quite bizarre.

[ledfloyd]

Yeah, I was wondering about your take Arya. The gist is that the stuff he put in the comic is anti-semetic, right? Though I'm assuming it's not actually that simple.

[Grouchy]

First I heard about it, but fascinating stuff.

Yeah, in short, they're statements against the current Indonesian present hidden in a Kitty Pryde panel by an Indonesian artist. The hate stems from him being Chinese and Christian and there's a reference to a line in the Quran about not trusting Christians or Jews. The other anti-Semitic thing about them might be the word "Jewelry" next to Kitty's head although maybe that's a cultural reference I don't get. Maybe 8 can shed some more light on the conflict that Wikipedia doesn't show.

Too bad because this Syaf character sure can draw.

[number8]

Well, the short take is: No, he didn't actually put anti-semitic messages in a comic. He put in a reference to a political protest and didn't think about how it would get interpreted, thinking nobody who's not familiar with local Jakarta politics would know what the numbers mean. Certainly not Americans, who are the majority of his audience. And he was absolutely right (nobody should blame Marvel editorial in the least for not catching it). But like an idiot, he forgot that he has Indonesian fans who read Marvel comics and might take an issue and have this amplifying thing called, you know, the fucking internet.

It's not even about a Presidential election! That's what's most ridiculous to me. The whole thing is over a race for Mayor/Governor (they're the same thing in Jakarta since it's a special district like Washington DC). I honestly don't know where to begin to explain the whole thing, because it involves an internet smear campaign, a specific hardline conservative group, and the way Quran interpretations work. On comic sites, it's just boiled down to "There's an anti-semitic verse in the Quran and this dude was promoting it." My LCS owner, to his credit, grilled me for all the nuances last week and then thanked me because now he can talk to other customers with more knowledge on the issue. I still felt a bit awkward talking about it because I live here in the US and learned all this second-hand from family and friends.

I'm not interested in commenting on the verse itself. For what it's worth, Ms. Marvel writer G. Willow Wilson wrote a fiery takedown on her blog about how she disagrees with that translation. I defer to her. Ardian Syaf himself claims that his intention wasn't to insult other religions and it was more of a political easter egg on his part. He put in the number "212," referencing the date of the December 2nd protest in Jakarta, and "QS 5:51," referencing the Quran verse at the heart of the protest.

Here's the best I can explain it: Jakarta's current Governor is Christian and facing an election. This one ultra-conservative Islamic group who are historically a bunch of assholes complaining about Indonesia's secular government and moderate citizens not being Muslim enough has been trying to get him out of office by telling voters that there's a verse in the Quran that forbids them from voting for him in the upcoming election. They were hanging banners about it on several mosques in Jakarta, which the government forcibly removed for violating the Indonesian constitution. Back in October, in one of his rallies, the Governor told the crowd, it's your right to not vote for me because of your personal beliefs, but please don't let yourself be deceived by people who use this verse of the Quran to convince you that you're forbidden from voting for me if you want to. Someone edited the video of the speech to make it seem like he just said, "this Quran verse is lying to you," uploaded it to Youtube, and it went viral on Facebook. The guy who made the video actually got arrested for inciting religious hatred, but the spin was enough for thousands of Muslims in Jakarta to organize a protest against blasphemy in November, which turned into a riot.

To promote unity, other Muslim groups teamed up with other religion's leaders and social activists to organize a nationwide counter-protest in response, which prompted the conservatives to form another protest, on December 2nd. So Syaf was apparently one of the fools who got duped into believing in this blasphemy charge and participated in the December protest while he was working on the X-men issue at the time, so he put in those numbers in solidarity of the side he was on (and you know what, in general I think artists should be allowed to do this--writers put in their political beliefs all the time, after all).

The "Jewelry" thing is just nonsense. That's comic fans looking for other hidden messages after the fact and thinking a jewelry shop sign in a city background is supposed to be criticizing Kitty because there are the letters "jew" in "jewelry." That's Reed Richards level of stretch to me.

[Grouchy]

(and you know what, in general I think artists should be allowed to do this--writers put in their political beliefs all the time, after all).
I totally agree. It also sounds like he's doing a very poor job of defending himself.

[number8]

He just lost the election today, btw. Thought I'd add that coda.

[Grouchy]

He just lost the election today, btw. Thought I'd add that coda.
And how do you feel about this?

I'm honestly curious. It's never easy to explain one's political panorama to foreigners. And Indonesia sure is a complicated place.

[number8]

Huh. I got a Linkedin request from Darick Robertson. That is very unexpected.

[Grouchy]

I love Howard Chaykin (http://www.freaksugar.com/chaykin-responds/). Finally someone who doesn't apologize for bullshit.

[number8]

I read #1 and it was absolute garbage. I'm convinced that Image is milking the edgy dollars for all it's worth because the work itself sucks.

[Grouchy]

Heh, I'm going to have to give you the benefit of the doubt there because Chaykin is wildly uneven. I'll always have a soft spot for him because his The Shadow limited series marked my puberty.

Regardless, I'm just glad someone can't be bullied into nonsensical apologies.

[D_Davis]

FINALLY read the first trade of the new Vision series. HOLY COW! Masterful! Wow!

And I'm finally reading through Hellboy. Through the 3rd collection now. Really great.

I've actually been reading a lot of comics lately. I got a Kindle Fire HD, and signed up for Comixology Unlimited. It's been fun.

[Melville]

Yeah, The Vision is great. Good to see you back.

[Grouchy]

What do you guys think about 1001 Comics You Must Read Before You Die? I've been skimming through the list and I was pleasantly surprised that it includes comics from all countries and ages. For some reason I thought it would be a lot more US-centric.

Still, The Dark Knight Strikes Again is its own entry? Seriously?

[D_Davis]

Where's that list at?

I'd say that yes, The Dark Knight Strikes Again is totally something people should read. That thing is insane. It's an audacious, glorious mess.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Read all of Uzumaki weekend before last.

It is amazing and wondrous and horrible and repulsive and God so good.

[Grouchy]

Where's that list at?
Well, frankly, it's very difficult to find out without buying the book. Best I could do is this: http://www.listchallenges.com/1001-comics-to-read-before-you-die-1970-2011

... which pretty arbitrarily only features comics from 1970 onwards.


I'd say that yes, The Dark Knight Strikes Again is totally something people should read. That thing is insane. It's an audacious, glorious mess.
I don't dislike it as much now as when I first read it, but come on - would you really recommend it as its own thing other than a caricature of Dark Knight Returns?

[Melville]

The full list is on the official site: http://www.paulgravett.com/1001_comics/1001_atoz/

It's an interesting list for sure. Lots of variety and lots of stuff I haven't read.

[D_Davis]

I don't dislike it as much now as when I first read it, but come on - would you really recommend it as its own thing other than a caricature of Dark Knight Returns?

It's precisely because of the way it characterizes DKR that I would recommend it. I appreciate that it's basically a big FUCK YOU to the fans. It's punk rock.

[Dukefrukem]

Arya, where can I start reading the transition from Cap to Hydra Cap?

Are those trades available yet?

[number8]

It started here

Avengers: Standoff https://www.amazon.com/dp/1302901478/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_OLJZzbZWS0V H9

[Dukefrukem]

It started here

Avengers: Standoff https://www.amazon.com/dp/1302901478/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_OLJZzbZWS0V H9

Oh shit. This is a great read!

[D_Davis]

Four issues into Tomie. Very good.

[D_Davis]

Anyone reading Five Ghosts?

[D_Davis]

Five Ghosts is awesome. Read the first 3 issues this morning. I love the art. It has a real '90s Vertigo vibe to it. It's kind of sloppy, and messy, but has a real charm to it. As far as the story goes, it's pure pulp. Totally reminds me of something that Manly Wade Wellman or A. Merritt would have created. Can't wait to see where this one goes.

[D_Davis]

Five Ghosts is good, but damn is it ever breezy. It's barely a snack in it's ability to have a lasting impact. I love the art, and I love the concept. I'm a total sucker for stories about stories, and this one has a good concept. However, there is almost nothing to it beyond its pulp surface. I wish it dug in a little more into its use of literary heroes, and in how fiction and mythology impacts the world in which it is created.

Maybe it dives a bit deeper in subsequent volumes. I'll definitely still check them out, if only for the great art.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Iliad Bookstore had From Hell for $10, and now I'm so damn happy to finally own it.

[D_Davis]

Anyone here read Batman: The War of Jokes and Riddles?

[Grouchy]

No but apparently Tom King is the new great writer.

[D_Davis]

Yeah. That's what I hear.

[Skitch]

Anyone here read Batman: The War of Jokes and Riddles?

I did. Quite enjoyed it and every issue he's done has been pretty interesting stuff. Not saying "Holy shit you guys have to read this groundbreaking shiit!!!1!", but every issue I expect to be the one that makes me want to quit buying, and every issue surprises. Would love to hear 8's thoughts on Batman #37. :D

Just started reading Doomsday Clock.

[number8]

He is, but his Batman is by far his weakest work. It's not bad, but it doesn't seem to be something he has a lot to say on, unlike his other works. Omega Men and Vision are modern masterpieces. His Mister Miracle is every publication's comic of the year despite only a few issues in. I'm eager to start on that one.

[D_Davis]

Vision is something else. Bought the War of Jokes and Riddles last night.

[Dead & Messed Up]

The big thing I heard was that it brought pathos to Kite Man.

[dreamdead]

I hadn't realized that The Sheriff of Babylon was only a two volume run--need to finish that second volume. Tom King's script for the first volume was solid stuff, some of my favorite of the Forever Wars lit that's come out of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Happy! was fun. Slight, but fun. There's a splash page towards the end that worked far better than I would've thought, probably because the comic's nihilism is so black and over-the-top that I couldn't take its grit-noir reality seriously. It's a comic where one cartoon fantasy is invaded by another.

[D_Davis]

Started the War of Jokes and Riddles.

I am liking the art a lot more than the writing. Story seems a bit disjointed right now. Could be me, because I'm not so in tune with the DC universe, but I'm having a hard time keeping track of who the POV character is.

The Vision seems to be on a completely different level, IMO.

[number8]

This is a very good twitter account to follow.

https://twitter.com/thisdayincomics

[Skitch]

This is a very good twitter account to follow.

https://twitter.com/thisdayincomics

Man you were not kidding.

[number8]

Speaking of Tom King, he just announced (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/01/13/tom-king-announces-sanctuary-dc/) a new DC title that sounds incredible. I might be more skeptical of DC's ability to handle this respectfully if it wasn't King writing it.


“It’s called Sanctuary,” he continued. “We’re creating something where it’s sort of like a crisis center for superheroes. It’s gonna be DC-wide, all the superheroes, and it’s gonna be a place where these superheroes who are living violent lives every single day — Batman gets in a fight every single night, five times a night.”

“We’re creating a place superheroes can go that mimics the good work people are doing for veterans around the world,” King explained, “where they can have a space where they can actually admit that this violence has had consequences for them and has affected them mentally, so that your greatest heroes, who are inspiring our children, can say proudly: yes, I’ve had some mental difficulties, and yes, working with people has helped me through them. And we don’t hide behind that.”

[Grouchy]

I'm pretty sure it was 8 who recommended The Secret History of Wonder Woman. That was a fucking fascinating read and I can recommend it to anyone with even a passing interest in pop culture, the history of comics or the history of feminism. So many of the discussions that these gals and guys were having in the span between the 1920s and the 1970s are still talked about today. I chuckled when I read that Marston's stories were re-discovered by feminists in the 1970s, but when Ms. magazine reprinted classic Marston Wonder Woman stories from the 1940s, they struggled to find the ones that featured less overt S&M.

Also, I now have a perfect answer to girls who told me that the fact that I have a huge poster of Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman makes me look like a horny teenager.

[ledfloyd]

Someone informed me that Ollie's (a Big Lots-type store) was had a bunch of DC graphic novels super cheap.

I picked up the first volume of the Starman omnibus (which I've wanted to read forever), two books containing the first 24 issues of Simone's Secret Six (also on my to-read list forever), a collection of BKV Batman stories, Azzarello and Bemejo's Luthor and the deluxe hardcover of Batman Inc. all for less than $25.

For some reason I didn't pick up Morrison's The Mystery Play for $3 and I passed on the first two volumes of his Seven Soldiers for $3 each mostly because I wasn't sure I'd be able to find volumes 3 and 4. I also saw the 2nd volume of Kirby's Kamandi: The Last Boy on Earth omnibus in hardcover for $7.

So basically, if you have an Ollie's nearby, go check it out.

[ledfloyd]

I’m about a quarter of the way into My Favorite Thing is Monsters, and after doubting the hype, I’m continually blown away by it. If this keeps up, it’s bound to be a once-in-a-decade comic.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Read the first TPB of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and it was a fun, fleet time. Alan Moore kickin back with a soda pop instead of leaning forward with coffee.

[Grouchy]

Read the first TPB of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and it was a fun, fleet time. Alan Moore kickin back with a soda pop instead of leaning forward with coffee.
The second one is more of the same, Victorian blockbuster fun. Starting with The Black Dossier he goes crazy with the references and the idea of a Wold Newton continuity and it gets really weird. Good, but weird.

I think the series about Nemo's daughter recovers that feeling of having a fun, fleet time.

[Grouchy]

Why is Batman Day celebrated today, if the first appearance of Batman was in May 1939?

[Peng]

The Complete Calvin and Hobbes: Finally finished this huge chunk of gem after about three months of reading a few pages of it before bed. I first came across some of Calvin & Hobbes small collection books from my USA host brother’s shelf exactly 10 years ago. Though incomplete, it instantly shot up to become my favorite comic strip then. And reading them all in full now, chronologically, only strengthens my love all the more. Kind of worrying how much I feel more with the side of parents and babysitter this time around though, and I'm not even 30 yet, lol.

[Irish]

Dunno where to put this so I'll put it here:

https://tv.avclub.com/it-s-fun-playing-with-the-boys-too-bad-they-don-t-have-1836637109

^ A review of Amazon's "The Boys," about a corporate run world with corruptible superheroes.

It's an okay review (I think her mention of Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" is wildly off the mark). But as with most old Gawker sites, the best stuff is in the comments:

https://tv.avclub.com/1836730383

^ This is a terrific analysis of one aspect of Alan Moore's "Watchmen," and one of the best examples of good criticism at a small scale that I've seen in ages.

[Irish]

Warren Ellis tells a little story about Kevin Smith: https://warrenellis.ltd/jot/my-kevin-smith-story/

Short read & worth it is you like either of them.

[Skitch]

Warren Ellis tells a little story about Kevin Smith: https://warrenellis.ltd/jot/my-kevin-smith-story/

Short read & worth it is you like either of them.

I love it.

[Grouchy]

Man, I've been reading Tom King's Rebirth Batman run from 2016 onwards... I got all excited over the first issue where Batman pulls a Superman and stops a plane falling over Gotham. But then it gets really, really, really bad. I'll let you know if it ever grows on me later on.

[Skitch]

I think Kings Batman run has been fantastic. Longest run of any book I've ever bought.

[Grouchy]

I'm finishing the "Night of the Monster Men" crossover. I don't mind the blockbuster aspect of it but, coming off the heels of Batman comics by Morrison and even White Knight which I thought was excellent, it all feels too... slight and even naive. King likes resurrecting these old Batman classic tropes such as Strange's Monster Men (which date back to 1940) without taking into account that nerd readers are already aware of them, without adding some new element to them. Also, and this is a complain I have about a lot of modern storytelling in action comic-books, too many issues with too little of the plot advancing.

But my main gripe is the dialogue between the heroes. I get that a lot of writers pick up on an obvious bit of Bat-family psychology, which is that Batman is the surrogate father to a lot of troubled young orphans, and the unhealthy relationships that develop from that. But King, he really runs that shit to the ground. So that when, I dunno, in the middle of desperate action Spoiler asks Nightwing if he's ok he'll say "it's usually Batman's role to worry about me" or if Batman asks Batwoman to stay somewhere she'll say "I didn't ask for your permission" or some shit like that EVERY SINGLE TIME. It makes them look like assholes.

[megladon8]

So I am guessing the chain I work for has a pretty good contract with Disney/Marvel. Not only do we get more Disney/Marvel/Star Wars merchandise every day, but something we've started getting lots of is TPBs and graphic novels.

I have bought all of these from my store. They are all brand new, and every one was just $4.

* denotes hardcover...

Star Wars comics

*Shattered Empire (Rucka / Checchetto / Unzueta)
*Kanan (Weisman / Larraz / Camagni/ Broccardo)
*A New Hope (Jones / Barreto)
Vader Down (Aaron / Gillen / Deodato /Larroca)
Darth Vader: The Sho-Torun War (Gillen /Larroca / Yu)
*Star Wars Omnibus Vol.1 (Aaron / Cassaday)
Legends: The Newspaper Strips Vol. 1 (various)
Legends: Infinities (various)
Legends: The Original Marvel Years Vol. 1 (various)
Legends: The Empire Vol. 2 (various)
Legends: The Rebellion Vol. 2 (various)
Legends: The New Republic Vol. 2 (various)


Marvel comics

*X-Men: No More Humans (Carey / Larroca)
Steve Rogers: Super Soldier (Brubaker / Eaglesham)
*Amazing Spider-Man: Family Business (Waid / Robinson / Dell'Otto / Dell'Edera)
Marvel Knights Spider-Man: Fight Night (Kindt / Rudy)
*Thor: For Asgard (Rodi / Bianchi)
*Spider-Man / Wolverine (Wells / Madureira)
*Ultimate Captain America (Aaron / Garney)
*Invaders Now! (Gage / Ross / Reis)
The Muppets Omnibus (Langridge / Paroline / Mebberson)

The Muppets book alone has an MSRP of $65.

[[ETM]]

In case anyone missed it, all of Black Panther comics were/are free on ComiXology. By this I don't mean "a lot od comics", I mean ALL the comics, including his first appearance, and all the appearances in other series like the X-Men. Also free are the Shuri and Killmonger series. It wasn't advertized anywhere so people dug up links for various titles: https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/imxwns/all_black_panther_comics_on_co mixology_are/

I got all of it, and it turned out as 295 books, FYI.

[Philip J. Fry]

1316892021341278208

[StuSmallz]

The best comics of 2021 (https://www.avclub.com/the-best-comics-of-2021-1848298433)