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Nick Fury, the Cold War, and All the Stars in the Sky (http://www.artboiled.com/2013/nick-fury-the-cold-war-and-all-the-stars-in-the-sky/)
As usual. Comment, critique, share.
Cool article, numba. I find myself at a loss for input. A fine, thorough assessment that addresses some of what I think makes Ennis a great writer. Namely, his respect, for those who dare and those who accomplish. He finds virtue in unity and confidence and completion. He's able to tell such gripping, humane stories even about warmongers, Nazis, and criminals, finding commonality with their ambitions and devotions, and that's not something at all common, especially in comics.
Ellen Page as Tara Chace... hmmm... I'd rather they cast an actual British person.
number8
09-10-2013, 01:39 AM
Cool article, numba. I find myself at a loss for input. A fine, thorough assessment that addresses some of what I think makes Ennis a great writer. Namely, his respect, for those who dare and those who accomplish. He finds virtue in unity and confidence and completion. He's able to tell such gripping, humane stories even about warmongers, Nazis, and criminals, finding commonality with their ambitions and devotions, and that's not something at all common, especially in comics.
Thanks. It actually was quite a lot of work.
EyesWideOpen
09-10-2013, 01:51 AM
Some more stuff if anyone is interested:
Sex #1-6 (Joe Casey) $6 shipped SOLD
Lost Vegas #1-4 (Jim McCann & Janet Lee) $6 shipped
Revival #1-11 (Tim Seeley & Mike Norton) $20 shipped
One down.
slqrick
09-10-2013, 11:54 PM
Picked up the first trade of Promethea. It's a Moore series I never checked out, and looking forward to some earlier JH Williams art.
Mind MGMT continues to be a really compelling read, it's almost tailor made to be show on cable.
Thanks. It actually was quite a lot of work.
It shows, though is not laborious.
sevenarts
09-11-2013, 03:04 AM
Mind MGMT continues to be a really compelling read, it's almost tailor made to be show on cable.
I love this series but really disagree about cable. So much of what makes it great - the hazy aesthetic, the multiple levels of hidden text, the subtle visual clues to deeper meanings - are things that are intrinsic to its existence as a comic book. It wouldn't work nearly as well in another medium - inevitably layers and formal devices would be stripped away and it would become just another collection of spy/X-Files cliches. I mean it's a good story in that vein, with interesting characters, but Kindt takes it to another level through all his cool visual tics and the ways in which he weaves multiple threads of text around the images.
EyesWideOpen
09-11-2013, 01:11 PM
I'd much rather see a cable show for Mind MGMT then a Ridley Scott movie which is the case right now.
number8
09-11-2013, 02:52 PM
So who's read Chip Kidd's Batman: Death by Design?
number8
09-17-2013, 10:09 PM
So after Alison Bechdel's masterful Fun Home, Are You My Mother? doesn't quite hit with the same force. Part of that is that without textual artifacts (like her father's letters), Bechdel isn't able to get as deeply into her mother's narrative. She remains more of a mystery so that there's less a sense of catharsis or understanding. And while that in itself is part of the point, it doesn't ever quite cohere. In many ways it's intentionally drawing from To the Lighthouse's structure, elongating out some narratives and utterly collapsing others, but the focus on Bechdel's own psychoanalytic studies feel unorganically connected.
I don't have the distaste that some of the goodreads critiques have toward psychoanalysis, but the amount of Winnicott material could have been restructured to better find the interiority of the mother, who still feels like an object rather than subject at the end. The last few pages work for that catharsis but it never culminates with the same ease as FH did. Bummer, though it's still quite interesting in spots.
Yeeeeah, I'm in the middle of Are You My Mother? right now and this is exactly how I feel. It makes it that much more of a slog than Fun Home. Funny to find out in Are You My Mother? that Bechdel rewrote Fun Home from scratch when she realized that she's dancing around something. She needed that again, I feel, because reading Are You My Mother? does feel like she's dancing around things and padding it out with psychoanalysis.
Four issues of The Massive, I'm hooked. So cool. Also, so frustrating. Wood, why must you always be so hit-or-miss?
Dead & Messed Up
09-18-2013, 07:50 PM
Picked up a collection of the first Spider-Man comics from the library. Dated, but really fun. It must've taken Herculean restraint for the writers to save aliens for Spider-Man's third issue. Also neat to see images/story conceits from the first batch of issues that made it into Raimi's films.
I was relieved when Parker started mocking the villains around the fourth issue (Doc Ock's first appearance). That adds some dimension to Parker's wish-fulfillment appeal. He's you, the young reader, but he's also a bit of an ass, not without vanity issues.
slqrick
09-23-2013, 05:57 PM
In light of Infinity, I read Paul Jenkins' Inhumans mini from 1998 (I think), really awesome. Black Bolt is a badass, and I'm looking forward to Fraction's upcoming Inhuman series.
number8
09-26-2013, 01:26 AM
Sex Criminals was well worth the wait.
Sex Criminals was well worth the wait.
Sex becoming strangely and pleasantly tweaked in my own life, gonna try it for commemoration's sake.
number8
09-26-2013, 03:52 AM
Sex becoming strangely and pleasantly tweaked in my own life, gonna try it for commemoration's sake.
Nice.
Doing a little stormy Sunday morning comics shuffling and was inspired to figure out my five favorite monthlies right now.
INPO:
Catalyst Comix
X-Men Legacy
Deathmatch
COPRA
Harbinger
All of these titles have structures that tweak, comment on, or otherwise revel in the superhero team ideal. I look forward to more sci-fi-heavy reads once Black Science and Umbral start, from both of which I expect great things.
number8
10-01-2013, 07:03 PM
My LCS is closing at the end of the month. Capitalism sucks.
Acapelli
10-02-2013, 02:51 AM
My LCS is closing at the end of the month. Capitalism sucks.
shit, what's your lcs?
slqrick
10-02-2013, 03:20 AM
I hope it's not Bergen Comics.
number8
10-02-2013, 03:16 PM
Nah, Bergen is doing fine. I go to a tiny shop in Park Slope called Brooklyn Comics & More whose owner I became friends with. Shooting the shit with him for 2 hours every Wednesday has been my weekly routine for the past 2 years, so it's just sad that he could not keep it afloat.
number8
10-02-2013, 09:51 PM
Red Handed: The Fine Art of Strange Crimes is the best thing Matt Kindt has done.
Red Handed: The Fine Art of Strange Crimes is the best thing Matt Kindt has done.
I have this waiting for me at the library, actually. I have high hopes, given my appreciation for most other Kindt things.
I probably should just buy it, if it's that good. His is a body of work that I already find myself inspired by. Since reading 3-Story (bawled like a baby on my lunch break), I've had a mean streak of creative lightness. I'm presently readin Mind MGMT at my neighborhood Creole joint and it's moving me similarly.
dreamdead
10-09-2013, 12:21 AM
Any chance of Kindt's work coming out in softcover? I'm indifferent to hardcover and would prefer the other format if I'm gonna end up blind-buying any of his work.
Vaughan and Martin's Private Eye just released its #4. So totally confused how this and Saga can consistently impress me with their visions (though I still want more thorough world building to this--the ramifications of search histories being released are tantalizing, but not explored in detail yet) while Vaughan's work on Under the Dome stands out as rote and thoroughly underwhelming.
I expect that I'll grab the first volume of Sex Criminals when it's released, so please keep me updated on people's thoughts to that.
ledfloyd
10-09-2013, 01:03 AM
So totally confused how this and Saga can consistently impress me with their visions (though I still want more thorough world building to this--the ramifications of search histories being released are tantalizing, but not explored in detail yet) while Vaughan's work on Under the Dome stands out as rote and thoroughly underwhelming.
I imagine he has far less freedom and control on Under the Dome
number8
10-15-2013, 04:17 AM
Did you buy red handed?
Did you buy red handed?
Not yet, but I did buy 2 Sisters, the enigmas of which are still gnawing at my brain.
Meantime I've been reading Wasteland, which is superb. Johnston is a terrific talent, and I love the processing that Mitten does. Very immersive.
Grouchy
10-16-2013, 12:00 PM
Finally read Hitman - the entire run plus annuals and the JLA team-up. Garth Ennis is a God. Even when he repeats himself over an over, I don't mind. It's like having a dialogue with an old friend at this point.
Finally read Hitman - the entire run plus annuals and the JLA team-up. Garth Ennis is a God. Even when he repeats himself over an over, I don't mind. It's like having a dialogue with an old friend at this point.
Did you read the Hitman/Lobo issue? One of my favorite comics ever.
Grouchy
10-16-2013, 05:34 PM
Did you read the Hitman/Lobo issue? One of my favorite comics ever.
Absolutely awesome. BUENO...
Sex Criminals was well worth the wait.
I wish I could say that I liked this, but I thought it was entirely half-assed in its execution. And I'm beginning to dislike Fraction's constant fourth wall breaks. Narrator addressing the reader isn't annoying, but narrator constantly reminding reader that they're reading a comicbook is. Casey's sex book >>> this.
In fairness, Satellite Sam is still one of my favorites right now.
sevenarts
10-17-2013, 12:34 AM
I didn't think Sex Criminals was more than pleasant and fun so far, but no way is Casey's Sex anywhere near even that good. SC was a good time, I thouht, and I'm curious to see where it goes next. It could wear out its welcome really quickly with the fourth wall breaking but I enjoyed it well enough in this setup first issue.
But yeah, Satellite Sam rules hard. So does Catalyst Comix, for Casey brilliance.
sevenarts
10-17-2013, 12:34 AM
And hey next week should be Pretty Deadly, everyone get that.
number8
10-17-2013, 09:38 PM
Kinda funny. Alan Moore requested that his name not be used in the Miracleman reprintings, and Marvel to their credit obliged. So this is how the solicit (and presumably the reprinted issue) is credited:
MIRACLEMAN #1 & 2
THE ORIGINAL WRITER & MICK ANGLO (W)
GARRY LEACH, ALAN DAVIS, PAUL NEARY, STEVE DILLON & MICK ANGLO (A)
Grouchy
10-18-2013, 06:42 AM
I get DC... But what's Alan Moore's beef with Marvel?
Ok, to his credit too.
number8
10-18-2013, 03:39 PM
I get DC... But what's Alan Moore's beef with Marvel?
Ok, to his credit too.
It's kind of a complicated story. Basically, Moore got his start on Marvel UK, writing Captain Britain and Doctor Who strips. The copyright policies for Marvel UK was a bit different and characters created for the strips were shared equally between the writer, the artist, and Marvel UK. Two incidents happened that soured Moore on Marvel. First, the Marvel started reprinting his Doctor Who strips in America without telling him or paying any royalties, which he wasn't happy with. Second, Chris Claremont started using Moore's Captain Britain characters on X-Men and Excalibur, unaware that there's a copyright issue. Moore was furious about this and told them to knock it off, and Marvel's lawyers told Marvel that they have to listen to Moore's demands, forcing Claremont to dump the big story he was setting up that involved Moore's characters. This caused a rift between Moore and Marvel, and for years Moore used his power as partial copyright holder to block Marvel's attempts to reprint his Captain Britain comics.
That is until the late 90s, when Joe Quesada took over Marvel and personally met up with Moore to try and bury the hatchet, wanting to reprint those Captain Britain stories. At that time, Moore was already feeling bad to Alan Davis, the other part copyright holder, who didn't necessarily want the seminal comics he'd drawn be prevented from being collected. So as a gesture of friendship to Davis, Moore finally allowed Quesada to collect his CB stuff, providing that they pay proper royalties to him and Davis, and that they're credited as copyright holders in the books. When the reprints came out, Marvel didn't send Moore comp copies, so he went to the store to check them out, and saw that the copyright credits are nowhere in it. Quesada apologized and said it was human error, but Moore felt like it was another instance of a company betraying and taking advantage of him (this was shortly after the WildStorm fiasco), and vowed never to have any dealings with Marvel ever again.
Grouchy
10-18-2013, 03:49 PM
Jesus. Thanks for the story.
number8
10-20-2013, 03:22 PM
Holy tits. I got on Dark Horse's press list and they sent me pdf copies of all their trade releases in Oct-Dec.
Grouchy
10-22-2013, 06:41 AM
Fresh off the thing with Hitman, I decided to give some other Ennis books a try.
Fury is fucking amazing. I'm talking about the three minis, including Peacemaker and My War Gone By. His remake of the character as a war-addicted old hard-ass is genius. Furthermore, Ennis knows his History books so well that this comic is actually informative as well as fun as hell. Another straight A for the mad bastard.
Crossed was the first time I've been (slightly) disappointed with Ennis. Don't get me wrong, it's fun and all, and it packs some of the great, dead-pan human drama that he does so well. But the Crossed are not a very inspired invention and, while he makes the most of them for nine issues, I don't know if I want to read any of the sequels. It's still a badass apocalyptic tale.
Jennifer Blood was very fun, just comedy and mass slaughter. Could be an awesome TV series, and in fact the premise reminded me of a female Breaking Bad. Colour me surprised when, well into the third TPB, I discover that Ennis stopped writing after issue 6. The guy who followed him, he blended in pretty well to say the least... Even the dialogue sounds like Ennis.
The guy who followed him, he blended in pretty well to say the least... Even the dialogue sounds like Ennis.
That's Al Ewing. He's awesome.
number8
10-22-2013, 02:49 PM
Ennis handpicked him, actually, based on his work on Judge Dredd.
number8
10-29-2013, 09:43 PM
DC Comics is closing their NY office and will be consolidated into the DC Entertainment office in LA.
Kinda sad about this.
Acapelli
10-30-2013, 02:51 AM
DC Comics is closing their NY office and will be consolidated into the DC Entertainment office in LA.
Kinda sad about this.
fuuuuck, my best friend is an editor at dc
number8
10-30-2013, 03:31 PM
fuuuuck, my best friend is an editor at dc
They're moving in 2015. He's got one year to decide if he's moving to LA or take a severance package. :/
D_Davis
10-30-2013, 09:26 PM
Question: is the Sandman Overture available via the Vertigo iOS app?
Followup: what are the best iOS comic apps? Anything good for manga? Any way to read Berserk (legally) on iOS?
Thanks.
Alls I know is that Gaiman wants you to buy the physical comic because there's something like a seven-page fold-out image that can't be adequately translated to digital.
I've tried reading comics on my computer. Feels too insubstantial. Like watching a movie on a laptop. I imagine it's a good medium to read B&W mangas, though.
number8
11-01-2013, 04:11 PM
Yeah, I read him talking about it, he specifically asked Vertigo if he could do something like that because he wanted an incentive to encourage people to go to a comic shop and buy the issue rather than digitally.
Skitch
11-01-2013, 04:42 PM
Store anniversary tomorrow. 30,000 back issues for a dollar a piece. I've been saving my nickels and dimes for months. Can't wait.
EyesWideOpen
11-02-2013, 05:11 PM
With so many really good new series I've been adding to my pull (Pretty Deadly, Letter 44, Rat Queens, Velvet, Rocket Girl, Sex Criminals, Zero) I've got to start dropping books I'm less interested in. So I dropped Uncanny (Mike Carey) Suicide Risk, Nowhere Men, and Bedlam (which has been going down hill since Rossmo left).
megladon8
11-02-2013, 11:08 PM
I know we don't have a lot of Scott Snyder fans here, but has anyone been reading "The Wake"?
number8
11-02-2013, 11:10 PM
Not I.
megladon8
11-02-2013, 11:29 PM
Not I.
I was gonna ask if you've read any good horror comics lately...then I saw your FB post about your article of Dark Horse horror (great, by the way!) but I've read all of them!
sevenarts
11-03-2013, 07:53 PM
I know we don't have a lot of Scott Snyder fans here, but has anyone been reading "The Wake"?
I have, it's pretty good. I think Snyder has some unfortunate tendencies (his Batman is just a trainwreck at this point) but horror seems to bring out the best in him. The Wake has been solid, and the fantastic artwork helps a lot.
megladon8
11-04-2013, 05:00 PM
Man, this whole "discovering a title literally days/weeks after it going OOP" is getting really old.
It's getting harder and harder to not support illegal downloading.
number8
11-04-2013, 05:21 PM
I was gonna ask if you've read any good horror comics lately...then I saw your FB post about your article of Dark Horse horror (great, by the way!) but I've read all of them!
I'm gonna be writing more about Dark Horse's output in the foreseeable future, I think, since I can now apparently read everything they release.
megladon8
11-04-2013, 05:26 PM
I'm gonna be writing more about Dark Horse's output in the foreseeable future, I think, since I can now apparently read everything they release.
Awesome! I will most definitely be reading what you have to say!
Horror is (IMO) a very under-explored genre in comics. There have been some real doozies the past couple of years, though ("Colder" and "Severed" to name a couple).
slqrick
11-04-2013, 06:16 PM
I'm still a big fan of Snyder's American Vampire stuff, even though the output's slowed down a lot.
It's getting harder and harder to not support illegal downloading.
Yes, because Lord knows that we need to be able to access any and all things at any given time.
megladon8
11-04-2013, 09:50 PM
Yes, because Lord knows that we need to be able to access any and all things at any given time.
:confused:
number8
11-04-2013, 10:08 PM
:confused:
I believe he's referring to the fact that "It's not available to purchase legally so my only option is getting it illegally" is a false dichotomy often used to justify illegal downloading. When in fact, there is a third option: you don't get to have it.
megladon8
11-05-2013, 03:45 AM
Yeah I got that. It was just an odd response, I thought.
I haven't downloaded anything illegally, I was just voicing my frustration over the number of titles that are almost completely unavailable (particularly in the horror genre).
Heck, my absolute #1 all-time favorite comic run hasn't been in print for nearly 10 years. I have all of the first print issues and I really don't want to keep opening them up to re-read.
sevenarts
11-05-2013, 12:54 PM
If you want to read something and the comic company isn't providing a version of it to buy legally, I struggle to see a moral reason not to just download it. I understand the you-don't-need-to-read-everything response, and it's true in its way, but it's also not really a very compelling argument. Nobody *needs* to read anything, legally obtained or not.
Many of the comics I read and buy now, I would never have gotten into if I hadn't been able to just download everything I want to try it out first. And that's not even mentioning the stuff that remains out-of-print potentially forever. Nobody would be happier than me to have a complete paperback run of Milligan's Shade the Changing Man on my shelf, but considering that DC's reprint effort has stalled out twice now, I guess I was the only one buying those books. So next time I want to re-read it, past the point where the books collect, I can either hunt down ~50 back issues or download the uncollected issues - both of which, incidentally, impart the same benefit via sales and royalties to the comic company and the creators.
Sigh.
In other news (and back to horror), I have a new writer crush in Antony Johnston. Tight sequencer. His Yuggoth Creatures mini is probably a new top ten for me. Hypnotic, homagey vignettes with gooey monsters and bubbling dread. And his Wasteland is too badass. I also really enjoyed the final Queen and Country book he wrote. Dude's pro.
Dead & Messed Up
11-05-2013, 03:14 PM
Started reading the first Marvel Masterworks of The Avengers, and while I'm not digging on it as much as the initial run of Amazing Spider-Man, which has more focus and humanity on its side (maybe unavoidably), Jack Kirby's art style on Avengers is more impressive. Liked how the Space Phantom is all sharp angles; guy looks like he stepped out of Caligari.
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans/A2_SpacePhantom.JPG
Skitch
11-05-2013, 03:46 PM
Saturday's sale went great. Plugged some collection holes real cheap (Detective, Nightwing, X-Men) and got a nice start on Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run.
number8
11-05-2013, 03:49 PM
In other news (and back to horror), I have a new writer crush in Antony Johnston. Tight sequencer. His Yuggoth Creatures mini is probably a new top ten for me. Hypnotic, homagey vignettes with gooey monsters and bubbling dread. And his Wasteland is too badass. I also really enjoyed the final Queen and Country book he wrote. Dude's pro.
The only things I've ever read by him are all adaptations of Alan Moore (Fashion Beast, Courtyard, Suburban Romance, Hypothetical Lizard), so I've yet to determine if I actually like the guy's writing or not. I think even his Yuggoth Creatures springboarded off of Moore's Lovecraft works.
Grouchy
11-05-2013, 09:21 PM
When in fact, there is a third option: you don't get to have it.
...
There are no words.
number8
11-05-2013, 09:41 PM
I'm not against anyone downloading comics, and in fact I strongly believe that file sharing leads to exposure and sales, which is why I am a huge proponent of making digital comics DRM free and a supporter of those who do, but what I said is 100% true. Resigning to wait or forgoing something unavailable is as perfectly valid an option as downloading it because you want to have it immediately. I do it all the time. No one is ever entitled to artists and publishers catering to their whims, after all, and insisting otherwise is what douchebags do.
EyesWideOpen
11-05-2013, 10:17 PM
I'm not against anyone downloading comics, and in fact I strongly believe that file sharing leads to exposure and sales, which is why I am a huge proponent of making digital comics DRM free and a supporter of those who do, but what I said is 100% true. Resigning to wait or forgoing something unavailable is as perfectly valid an option as downloading it because you want to have it immediately. I do it all the time. No one is ever entitled to artists and publishers catering to their whims, after all, and insisting otherwise is what douchebags do.
I'm with you 100%. If you miss out on the ground floor of something then either wait for the reprint or the trade. You are not entitled to have every comic ever made available to you.
EyesWideOpen
11-05-2013, 10:19 PM
On a related downloading note I just remembered about BKV and Marcos Martin's Private Eye series the other day and downloaded the first four issues. Such great stuff. Martin is a beast.
megladon8
11-05-2013, 10:56 PM
In this age of digital media and the advent of digital comics, I really don't see why they can't have just about everything available for legitimate, legal download.
In the case of my favorite run ever (which is the early-2000's Genis run of "Captain Marvel", FWIW) it has been out of trade publication since 2004. Sure you can find the odd second-hand copy, but I'd love to either have an omnibus edition (not likely since it's not exactly a popular run) or have them available digitally.
Like I mentioned earlier, I have all of the first print individual issues bagged and boarded and I really don't want to break them out every time I want to re-read (which is usually around once a year).
And I think taking this all into a "you shouldn't feel that you're entitled to 24/7/365 access to these books" argument is getting a little silly. At no point did I make any claims to this feeling of entitlement.
It was an innocent little annoyance I shared (discovering a title only to find it just recently went out of print). It's been taken way out of hand here.
It was an innocent little annoyance I shared (discovering a title only to find it just recently went out of print). It's been taken way out of hand here.
I think everyone sides with your frustration, and I'm well aware that my opinion of filesharing isn't the most popular one (though like 8, I believe it has its place, and it certainly isn't going anywhere).
But entitlement, one of the more irritatingly potent emotions, is the only thing that motivates defenses of illegal downloading.
Grouchy
11-06-2013, 12:30 AM
But entitlement, one of the more irritatingly potent emotions, is the only thing that motivates defenses of illegal downloading.
My defense would be quite different. It would be based around the fact that the profit loss from downloading an out-of-print comic is basically zero, since buying a used comic at a sale doesn't mean that your money is going to goddamn Time-Warner. The only thing you're hurting is the ego of corporate CEOs who wish filesharing would just disappear.
This is all purely theoretical, but I don't think Peter Milligan's economy is going to crumble because thousands, even millions of people download a run of a comic-book he wrote thirty years ago. On the other hand, if those millions of new readers discover Milligan and buy his TPBs, the small percentage of those sales that go directly to him might allow him to buy a hamburger or something.
number8
11-06-2013, 12:59 AM
In this age of digital media and the advent of digital comics, I really don't see why they can't have just about everything available for legitimate, legal download.
Well, for new comics, they do. But for comics made before the 21st century, if you don't have the digital files made already, creating them can cost thousands. First you need to pay for the manpower to digitally scan them at high resolution, and then digitally clean them up to be fit for release. In most cases, they will need to hire a color separation firm to restore the colors, and letterers to make them legible again. It's why publishers are reluctant about reprints if they don't think there's a demand, and just stop collections without completion when they don't sell. Gemstone went bankrupt reprinting EC Comics archives a few years back.
megladon8
11-06-2013, 01:01 AM
I think everyone sides with your frustration, and I'm well aware that my opinion of filesharing isn't the most popular one (though like 8, I believe it has its place, and it certainly isn't going anywhere).
Like I said, I haven't downloaded anything (illegally that is - I have quite a few I've purchased efiles of).
I was just making a comment is all. Poorly worded, I guess.
My defense would be quite different. It would be based around the fact that the profit loss from downloading an out-of-print comic is basically zero, since buying a used comic at a sale doesn't mean that your money is going to goddamn Time-Warner. The only thing you're hurting is the ego of corporate CEOs who wish filesharing would just disappear.
This is all purely theoretical, but I don't think Peter Milligan's economy is going to crumble because thousands, even millions of people download a run of a comic-book he wrote thirty years ago. On the other hand, if those millions of new readers discover Milligan and buy his TPBs, the small percentage of those sales that go directly to him might allow him to buy a hamburger or something.
Even if the morality of the situation was based purely in "who gets my cash?", you're still rationalizing theft because of things that you want. Which is entitlement.
Like I said, I haven't downloaded anything (illegally that is - I have quite a few I've purchased efiles of).
You're a better man than I. [/has done it]
I hope you don't think I'm singling you out in my posts. Piracy is a personal peeve of mine, so I get a little gung ho about it.
megladon8
11-06-2013, 02:31 AM
You're a better man than I. [/has done it]
I hope you don't think I'm singling you out in my posts. Piracy is a personal peeve of mine, so I get a little gung ho about it.
No, no worries. I am very against piracy myself. I have only ever downloaded one movie illegally and it was a foreign flick that was literally unavailable to me until I bought an all-region BluRay player (Mind Game, which I downloaded about 5 years ago, and I bought a copy once I had the aforementioned all-region :))
I just get really frustrated by the amount of comic content not available due to OOP issues. There are so many wonderful titles lost to obscurity because they're not about mainstream superheroes.
I truly hope that in the years to come, all of this stuff does become available digitally. It would be such a damn shame for it to be lost.
The only things I've ever read by him are all adaptations of Alan Moore (Fashion Beast, Courtyard, Suburban Romance, Hypothetical Lizard), so I've yet to determine if I actually like the guy's writing or not. I think even his Yuggoth Creatures springboarded off of Moore's Lovecraft works.
I just noticed this post.
I haven't read a ton of his Moore adaptations, but what I have (shorter works, mostly) have seemed distinctly Johnston-y. I think it stems largely from Moore's personal absence from involvement, and Johnston's own devotion to form. When I read Moore's stuff, it gives me a totally different vibe. I dunno. Do you feel like Watchmen and Fashion Beast are of a piece, creator-wise?
Grouchy
11-06-2013, 12:00 PM
Even if the morality of the situation was based purely in "who gets my cash?", you're still rationalizing theft because of things that you want. Which is entitlement.
Eh. You boys love your capitalism, I guess.
This would seem like a point over which you're not completely rational.
number8
11-06-2013, 02:39 PM
I just noticed this post.
I haven't read a ton of his Moore adaptations, but what I have (shorter works, mostly) have seemed distinctly Johnston-y. I think it stems largely from Moore's personal absence from involvement, and Johnston's own devotion to form. When I read Moore's stuff, it gives me a totally different vibe. I dunno. Do you feel like Watchmen and Fashion Beast are of a piece, creator-wise?
Sort of? The language definitely does. Regardless, without any of his original works to compare to, I don't know how to separate it. From what I understand, he sticks to Moore's original text pretty closely.
I was thinking of getting Umbral, though.
Eh. You boys love your capitalism, I guess.
This would seem like a point over which you're not completely rational.
Props to the person who lives his life slavishly rational. And I don't understand how my alleged irrationality disproves your entitlement.
I was thinking of getting Umbral, though.
Can't think of a new book I anticipate more.
number8
11-06-2013, 03:49 PM
Expanding the conversation to the larger financial effects of piracy seems to be a mistake since it's missing the original point, which is asking why people personally feel that they should be able to have something just because they want it. I'm not really worried about anyone losing profits or anything, since like I said, I mostly believe that file sharing benefits creators (although plenty of creators may disagree). Nevertheless, it's not wrong to point out that nothing but purely selfish entitlement would motivate a person to say, "I want this, regardless of its availability or my ability to pay for it, so I'm going to have this." Unless we want to argue that reading comics for free is somehow sticking it to the man.
sevenarts
11-06-2013, 04:03 PM
The entitlement thing is such a facile argument. Yes, people do indeed download comics illegally because they want to read them. You got me there.
Kurosawa Fan
11-06-2013, 04:05 PM
The downloading being talked about in this thread is not theft.
Not arguing for or against piracy in general, just clearing up the misuse of the word "theft" being tossed around in here. You can argue the motivation driving those who download unavailable comics/films/music/books/etc. and the moral implications therein, but to call it theft is to give it an undeserving title.
I'm of the understanding that "theft" is "stealing," which is basically procuring others' property without recompense. Pirating a comic book is entitling yourself to the creators' property without giving anything of yourself. I don't see how that's not theft.
And sevenarts, the entitlement angle has not been an argument, just an observation of the motivation behind the rationality. I'm not against piracy because entitled people are a pain.
Kurosawa Fan
11-06-2013, 04:32 PM
I'm of the understanding that "theft" is "stealing," which is basically procuring others' property without recompense. Pirating a comic book is entitling yourself to the creators' property without giving anything of yourself. I don't see how that's not theft.
And sevenarts, the entitlement angle has not been an argument, just an observation of the motivation behind the rationality. I'm not against piracy because entitled people are a pain.
In order for something to be "theft" there has to be loss. Theft is the taking and removing of property. There is no loss in the instance of pirating a piece of media that is completely unavailable. There is no monetary loss to the publisher since they can make no profit on a product in which they have stopped production. There is no loss for the consumer who initially put the product on the internet for pirating because that consumer still has their copy. There is no loss. It is not theft. If that product is available in any capacity, there is definitely loss and it is theft, but that's not what's being discussed here.
Again, I'm not arguing for or against the piracy of unavailable material, I'm just arguing against calling it theft.
EyesWideOpen
11-06-2013, 04:40 PM
There is a monetary loss because there is still a copyright holder who might eventually offer it for sale.
Kurosawa Fan
11-06-2013, 04:43 PM
There is a monetary loss because there is still a copyright holder who might eventually offer it for sale.
That's a specious argument because you can also argue that the individual, like in meg's case, will purchase the product when it becomes available even though he downloaded it when it was not.
number8
11-06-2013, 04:51 PM
The entitlement thing is such a facile argument. Yes, people do indeed download comics illegally because they want to read them. You got me there.
What Sven said: It's not an argument and no one is being got. It is what it is, which is why it's funny to see people get so offended and defensive about it. We download comics because we can't be bothered with the hard work of waiting, collecting, petitioning, or simply letting go. Why do so many fans refuse to cop to this and come up with bullshit song and dance about corporate greed?
In order for something to be "theft" there has to be loss.
I don't agree, but within this framework, piracy of in-print material can be defined as theft because you are yoinking it without paying when you could pay. No different from lifting a hard copy from the store. The content of OOP books is still someone's intellectual property, potentially even made unavailable on purpose, so I think it still falls under theft if you want to nab it without paying someone. "Loss" is too hard to define with digital material that can be readily copied.
Kurosawa Fan
11-06-2013, 05:17 PM
I don't agree, but within this framework, piracy of in-print material can be defined as theft because you are yoinking it without paying when you could pay. No different from lifting a hard copy from the store. The content of OOP books is still someone's intellectual property, potentially even made unavailable on purpose, so I think it still falls under theft if you want to nab it without paying someone. "Loss" is too hard to define with digital material that can be readily copied.
In my initial post, I said downloading an in print product is most certainly theft, but from a criminal definition, which is defined as:
the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person with the intention of depriving the owner permanently of its possession
downloading an out of print, unavailable product is not theft.
ledfloyd
11-06-2013, 05:26 PM
You guys are aware of the Fantagraphics Kickstarter right?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fantagraphicsbooks/fantagraphics-2014-spring-season-39-graphic-novels
I'm eyeing up that signed Joe Sacco book.
Kurosawa Fan
11-06-2013, 05:30 PM
I don't agree, but within this framework, piracy of in-print material can be defined as theft because you are yoinking it without paying when you could pay. No different from lifting a hard copy from the store. The content of OOP books is still someone's intellectual property, potentially even made unavailable on purpose, so I think it still falls under theft if you want to nab it without paying someone. "Loss" is too hard to define with digital material that can be readily copied.
I should say though, that it's fair enough to say there's a lot of gray area in regards to digital material and downloading. I suppose it's a bit unfair of me to say there's no argument for calling it theft. I just also find it unfair to label someone downloading completely unavailable content as a thief. That's a pretty harsh brush with which to paint someone for an act that, while perhaps still illegal, isn't depriving anyone, corporation and artist included, of anything.
number8
11-06-2013, 05:30 PM
You guys are aware of the Fantagraphics Kickstarter right?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fantagraphicsbooks/fantagraphics-2014-spring-season-39-graphic-novels
I'm eyeing up that signed Joe Sacco book.
Yeah, I'm thinking about the signed Usagi Yojimbo print.
sevenarts
11-06-2013, 05:38 PM
I kicked in for the signed Jaime Hernandez book. Hard to believe that even a big "indie" publisher like Fantagraphics is in such a precarious position where they need to do this.
Grouchy
11-06-2013, 05:39 PM
Agreed with the K-Fan and sevenarts here. Words like "entitlement" or "theft" are entirely inappropriate.
Personally, I believe culture should be made more (as opposite to less) available to the masses at large when it comes at no great cost for anyone.
...isn't depriving anyone, corporation and artist included, of anything.
This is the crux of our differences in definition. I guess I fixate more on the "taking without giving" aspect. It's the same irritation I have with those who theater-hop (which I used to do religiously). Even though the film companies/makers aren't losing anything by your sneaking in, I still see it as theft because you're stealing the experience.
Agreed with the K-Fan and sevenarts here. Words like "entitlement" or "theft" are entirely inappropriate here.
Personally, I believe culture should be made more (as opposite to less) available to the masses at large when it comes at no great cost for anyone.
But I'm stealing for CULTURE!!!
Kurosawa Fan
11-06-2013, 06:01 PM
This is the crux of our differences in definition. I guess I fixate more on the "taking without giving" aspect. It's the same irritation I have with those who theater-hop (which I used to do religiously). Even though the film companies/makers aren't losing anything by your sneaking in, I still see it as theft because you're stealing the experience.
But again, in this case there is monetary loss for the theater and the film studio. You aren't paying for your ticket. While it may be minimal, it's still loss, and spread out over time and over rise in popularity, could severely hurt the theater. In the case of out of print media, and only out of print and unavailable media, you have no way to "give." It simply isn't possible. Again, I'm not justifying it. I'm not advocating it. It's still illegal (sort of). However, calling someone a thief for downloading something they would have paid for if allowed is really harsh, and that's my issue.
Grouchy
11-06-2013, 06:03 PM
Would you insist that some company take over the expired rights of people like Willie Shakespeare or Edgar Allan Poe, instead of making available for free through the education system? If so, we should stop talking because our differences in opinion are too great.
number8
11-06-2013, 06:08 PM
Goddamn, the strawman is strong in this. Having that belief is not mutually exclusive to also feeling entitled to getting things for one's own amusement, which, let's be honest, is the single main reason anyone download comics. Sven working at a library probably does more towards providing culture to the public than anyone torrenting a book for themselves. I'm mostly just so tired of piracy conversations always turning into lofty arguments about the intangible profit loss of content creators because no one can actually justify their personal motivation in a manner that doesn't sound completely selfish, and yet everyone refuse to admit to the selfishness. Stop with the weasely wall street banker language already and just say you pirate because it's more convenient and cheaper for you (for both in-print or out-of-print materials). Anything else is complete bullshit and we all know it.
Grouchy
11-06-2013, 06:16 PM
Not necessarily. I pirate because it's convenient and cheap for me, and I also believe everything I said so far on this thread.
Goddamn it.
sevenarts
11-06-2013, 06:42 PM
Yes, everyone who downloads does so for free personal entertainment. Obviously. This doesn't mean that it's not *also* true that:
1) downloading out-of-print material hurts exactly no one and in fact can help build an audience for obscure older series
2) a lot of current, in-print material that people download wouldn't have been purchased anyway, so there's no real "loss" there either
3) illegal downloads can and do lead directly to actual purchases all the time, for both single issues and collections
You can dismiss all this as rationales for "entitlement" all you want, but it doesn't make these things untrue. People use illegal downloading in a variety of ways, and for a variety of reasons.
number8
11-06-2013, 07:05 PM
Er, I didn't say any of them are untrue. I in fact said some of those exact same things in my previous posts.
ledfloyd
11-06-2013, 08:33 PM
I wonder what the economic cost of libraries is for producers of print media vis-a-vis filesharing.
I just read the Jenkins/Lee/Philips Batman: Jekyll and Hyde. Oooo, goosebumps. Shockingly twisted, and excellent to boot. Beautifully conceived on all fronts. The trend is that Two-Face stories work for me, in comics. One of my favorite DC arcs is Rucka's Gotham Central Two-Face/Montoya story (which was apparently continued from something I never read, but oughta get on).
Anyone have any other favorite Dent stories?
number8
11-08-2013, 03:39 AM
The beginning of the Dent/Montoya relationship was the best part of No Man's Land.
But the best Two-Face story is "Eye of the Beholder."
The beginning of the Dent/Montoya relationship was the best part of No Man's Land.
Shoot, it's from that? I will have to wait until some point in the likely-distant future, cuz I can't see myself picking up those books any time soon.
Grouchy
11-08-2013, 01:43 PM
If you like Matt Wagner you should read his LOTDK run "Faces", heavily inspired by Tod Browning's Freaks.
Wagner's a bona fide. Haters, if there are any, are trying too hard. I will look for this story.
EyesWideOpen
11-09-2013, 11:23 AM
Matt Wagner is the truth. Too bad he's stuck over at Dynamite making shit no one under the age of 60 wants to read.
Skitch
11-09-2013, 11:42 AM
I've enjoyed the pirating conversation. Glad to hear so many of you are against it. I've never pirated a comic, never downloaded a film, but....I have procured 2 or 3 illegal films that are unavailable, and they will be pre-ordered should they ever be legit released. I do think 8 is right and I do feel bad about even having a couple.
I've enjoyed the pirating conversation. Glad to hear so many of you are against it. I've never pirated a comic, never downloaded a film, but....I have procured 2 or 3 illegal films that are unavailable, and they will be pre-ordered should they ever be legit released. I do think 8 is right and I do feel bad about even having a couple.
One last point to add, is that I realize I tend to give less credence to criticism/commentary when I know that the participants are discussing pirated material. Why should your opinion carry weight if you can't be bothered to invest in what you're discussing?
ledfloyd
11-09-2013, 09:44 PM
One last point to add, is that I realize I tend to give less credence to criticism/commentary when I know that the participants are discussing pirated material. Why should your opinion carry weight if you can't be bothered to invest in what you're discussing?
I'm more or less with you (in principle) until this point.
Again, I'll use the library example. Is my opinion of a movie, book, or comic I get from the library less valuable than my opinion of a movie, book, or comic I purchase. If anything I would think there would be more of a propensity to convince myself I like the thing I spent money on in order to justify the investment rather than tell myself I wasted money. In which case that opinion would be less valuable.
I think if we're trying to use investment as a basis for the worthiness of someone's opinion the best compliment would be "I got it from the library, but I loved it so much I had to buy it." Where the investment is a direct result of the assessment of the material.
D_Davis
11-10-2013, 01:13 AM
Kind of getting back into mainstream comic books because of my iPad. I'm re-reading Moore's Swamp Thing right now. Haven't read it since it's initial run.
I love the guided view feature of these digital comics - it's very cool. Also, those old books like Swamp Thing look amazing on the retina display. They look so much better than I remember, just because they don't have to deal with cheap paper anymore.
I'd like everyone to name 1 comic book run of the last 10 years that I should read, something that is available via Comixology, or one of the major publishers apps. I'd like something not too long, maybe around 10-50 issues or something. I'm open for anything from any genre.
Thanks!
sevenarts
11-10-2013, 01:45 AM
D_Davis: Terry Moore's Echo.
Full disclosure, I downloaded this series, but loved it so much I had to buy it.
D_Davis
11-10-2013, 04:10 AM
D_Davis: Terry Moore's Echo.
Full disclosure, I downloaded this series, but loved it so much I had to buy it.
Thanks - I'll get it.
Skitch
11-10-2013, 11:31 AM
I'm more or less with you (in principle) until this point.
Again, I'll use the library example. Is my opinion of a movie, book, or comic I get from the library less valuable than my opinion of a movie, book, or comic I purchase. If anything I would think there would be more of a propensity to convince myself I like the thing I spent money on in order to justify the investment rather than tell myself I wasted money. In which case that opinion would be less valuable.
I think if we're trying to use investment as a basis for the worthiness of someone's opinion the best compliment would be "I got it from the library, but I loved it so much I had to buy it." Where the investment is a direct result of the assessment of the material.
But you put effort in at least going to the library. I get what Sven is saying here because I know people who obtain everything illegally and almost never give a positive review.
EyesWideOpen
11-10-2013, 12:11 PM
Thanks - I'll get it.
I second Echo. It's a fantastic series.
My pick is Brian K Vaughn's Saga.
D_Davis
11-10-2013, 02:27 PM
I second Echo. It's a fantastic series.
My pick is Brian K Vaughn's Saga.
Sounds good - I'll look into it.
Again, I'll use the library example. Is my opinion of a movie, book, or comic I get from the library less valuable than my opinion of a movie, book, or comic I purchase. If anything I would think there would be more of a propensity to convince myself I like the thing I spent money on in order to justify the investment rather than tell myself I wasted money. In which case that opinion would be less valuable.
Citizens own library material, so I disagree that engaging with a book there is the same as pirating it for keeps. If one had to make a trip to the piracy store and provide their name and address to the keepers of the material, maybe my tune would change.
Obviously I only endorse purchasing that which one deems worthy of purchase.
D, you're always welcome to peruse and borrow from my collection. (Preemptive defense: lending your books to a friend is not piracy.)
I think you would greatly enjoy Wasteland. It's a post-apocalypse adventure, thorough world-building, with punchy dialogue and tremendous artwork.
Grouchy
11-10-2013, 05:39 PM
Sven, you can stop paying attention to anything I say about movies.
Winston*
11-10-2013, 06:06 PM
Hellblazer is awesome!
D_Davis
11-10-2013, 06:59 PM
Hellblazer is awesome!
Definitely going to re-read this.
What's the order to read things when Constantine ends up meeting up with the Swamp Thing?
number8
11-10-2013, 07:34 PM
Constantine showed up on Swamp Thing before he got his own series. So you can just read Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run and then start with the Hellblazer series.
D_Davis
11-10-2013, 07:41 PM
Constantine showed up on Swamp Thing before he got his own series. So you can just read Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run and then start with the Hellblazer series.
Cool - thanks. Couldn't remember if that was the case or not.
megladon8
11-10-2013, 07:47 PM
D, I'll throw a recommendation out for Garth Ennis' "Punisher MAX".
Winston*
11-10-2013, 07:48 PM
There's a cross over arc with Rick Veitch's Swamp Thing, but that's collected in the first Hellblazer trade.
megladon8
11-10-2013, 07:50 PM
Also, if you have not read "Planetary", I strongly suggest you do so ASAP.
ledfloyd
11-10-2013, 07:53 PM
Citizens own library material, so I disagree that engaging with a book there is the same as pirating it for keeps. If one had to make a trip to the piracy store and provide their name and address to the keepers of the material, maybe my tune would change.
Obviously I only endorse purchasing that which one deems worthy of purchase.
But a lot of the time you're taking a gamble, you don't know something is worthy of purchase til you have it in your hands.
Ok, forget the library example. Is my opinion of a film less trustworthy if I got it as a Christmas present, or if a friend lent it to me?
Piracy is (usually) immoral, sure, I agree with you. But I don't see how the manner in which one acquires something in anyway effects the legitimacy of their opinion (assuming, of course, we aren't talking about sponsorship situations).
ledfloyd
11-10-2013, 08:01 PM
I feel like Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol would be up your alley D.
Winston*
11-10-2013, 08:05 PM
I think that rather than it being money down = greater engagement, it's just that having all world media for free at your fingertips has the tendency to make one jaded. Have definitely noticed this myself with pirating music in the past
Winston*
11-10-2013, 08:07 PM
I feel like Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol would be up your alley D.
Seaguy also, for sure.
D_Davis
11-10-2013, 08:17 PM
I feel like Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol would be up your alley D.
Read during its initial run - I do love it. Going to re-read it.
D_Davis
11-10-2013, 08:20 PM
So far I've got:
Echo
Saga
Wasteland
Punisher MAX
Planetary
Seaguy
and I'm also going to read Prophet - the newer issues after the reboot.
number8
11-10-2013, 08:59 PM
I think that rather than it being money down = greater engagement, it's just that having all world media for free at your fingertips has the tendency to make one jaded. Have definitely noticed this myself with pirating music in the past
This reminds me of Patton Oswalt's essay. http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/12/ff_angrynerd_geekculture/
sevenarts
11-10-2013, 10:04 PM
and I'm also going to read Prophet - the newer issues after the reboot.
An excellent idea, for sure. It's one of the best series currently going. Actually, everything named so far is great (though I haven't checked out Wasteland yet). You've got a hell of a reading list now.
D_Davis
11-10-2013, 10:58 PM
An excellent idea, for sure. It's one of the best series currently going. Actually, everything named so far is great (though I haven't checked out Wasteland yet). You've got a hell of a reading list now.
A friend showed me the reboot issue, and I instantly fell in love with the art style. It looks amazing.
Oh - and I'm also reading Berserk, although not legally.
Winston*
11-10-2013, 11:01 PM
Have you read Naoki Urasawa's Pluto, Davis?
D_Davis
11-10-2013, 11:06 PM
Have you read Naoki Urasawa's Pluto, Davis?
Borrowed from a friend months ago, but still haven't read it. Will get on that soon.
D_Davis
11-11-2013, 02:26 PM
D, you're always welcome to peruse and borrow from my collection. (Preemptive defense: lending your books to a friend is not piracy.)
Thanks, P. I might do that, even just to look at titles to get digitally. There is something about the digital format that is really appealing to me. It just works so well with comic books. I don't like the size of comic books, and always wished they were all the size of manga books, or the size of a fiction trade paperback.
number8
11-11-2013, 05:36 PM
Second issue of Sandman Overture delayed to February. Fuck everything.
D_Davis
11-11-2013, 06:53 PM
Second issue of Sandman Overture delayed to February. Fuck everything.
I was shocked to find that this costs $4.99 in digital. Is there typically not much of a discount in new digital comics? Definitely won't be buying until the price comes down. That's a lot of money for a single issue.
number8
11-11-2013, 07:03 PM
There is no price difference between digital and print comics on all new comics.
D_Davis
11-11-2013, 07:08 PM
There is no price difference between digital and print comics on all new comics.
Ah - good to know. I'll focus on the wealth of old stuff from the last ~20 years.
Is the print version square-bound, with a cardstock cover, or is $4.99 the price of most new comics these days?
The main reason why I stopped buying comics about 20 years ago is because the price had gotten way out of hand. I remember when Akira finished - I had to work almost 2 hours at my minimum wage job just to buy a single issue. That was insane.
D_Davis
11-11-2013, 07:13 PM
So if you're buying a lot of new stuff, it's actually cheaper to do so at a store because of the discount that stores give to their customers.
If I don't want clutter, I'm just better off waiting to be a bit behind so I can take advantage of the discount.
I'm guessing this practice was put in place to protect the retail stores, as the industry probably didn't want all the comic shops closing up like most of the music stores have.
number8
11-11-2013, 07:54 PM
The extra $2 is mostly due to special printing a pretty spectacular part of the issue where a two page spread opens up to reveal a 4 page image "inside" the previous image. I'm actually kind of curious how you would recreate the same effect on digital. They probably didn't and just put one image after the other.
D_Davis
11-11-2013, 08:00 PM
The guided view of Cerebus High Society is great - it really meshes well with Sim's visual style. Hopefully they'll do all of Cerebus this way. So much better than lugging around those giant phone books.
sevenarts
11-11-2013, 08:50 PM
The extra $2 is mostly due to special printing a pretty spectacular part of the issue where a two page spread opens up to reveal a 4 page image "inside" the previous image. I'm actually kind of curious how you would recreate the same effect on digital. They probably didn't and just put one image after the other.
Gaiman asked Vertigo if he could do this specifically to encourage buying the physical issue, rather than digital, since it was purposefully something that wouldn't translate well to digital. Bummer this got delayed already, probably inevitable with Williams' art.
D_Davis
11-11-2013, 09:43 PM
Gaiman asked Vertigo if he could do this specifically to encourage buying the physical issue, rather than digital, since it was purposefully something that wouldn't translate well to digital. Bummer this got delayed already, probably inevitable with Williams' art.
Weird.
The issue is already going for over cover price, so all he's done is produced another collectable, and I'm not interested in collecting things much anymore.
If the story is good, it will transcend a printing gimmick.
I'll probably just wait for the inevitable e-trade version in a year.
number8
11-11-2013, 10:13 PM
There's nothing wrong with using the properties of a medium to tell a story in a way that is unique to it. I think it's experimental and cool. It's hardly about collecting. There have been comics that try to take advantage of what they are like that in the past, and when they work, they're fab. Alan Moore's last issue of Promethea is probably the most famous, where you had to dismantle the issue and arrange the pages into a giant poster to get the order of the story. There was also that fun Bulletproof Coffin issue where you're encouraged to cut up the panels and mix and match them.
bac0n
11-11-2013, 10:29 PM
Have you read Naoki Urasawa's Pluto, Davis?
Loved this series, but was only able to find and read the first two. *sob*
D_Davis
11-11-2013, 10:42 PM
There's nothing wrong with using the properties of a medium to tell a story in a way that is unique to it. I think it's experimental and cool. It's hardly about collecting. There have been comics that try to take advantage of what they are like that in the past, and when they work, they're fab. Alan Moore's last issue of Promethea is probably the most famous, where you had to dismantle the issue and arrange the pages into a giant poster to get the order of the story. There was also that fun Bulletproof Coffin issue where you're encouraged to cut up the panels and mix and match them.
Right - I just won't worry about those things because I don't care to have the physical thing.
All the power to those who do want those kinds of things in their comic books.
All I care about now is that the story and art are good and work well together, so hopefully I can still get that (and I'm sure I"ll be able to) with the e-version.
Winston*
11-11-2013, 10:52 PM
Loved this series, but was only able to find and read the first two. *sob*
http://www.bookdepository.com/search?searchTerm=pluto+urasaw a
?
Free shipping worldwide
Winston*
11-11-2013, 10:54 PM
I just hate reading comics with a back lit screen.
D_Davis
11-11-2013, 11:02 PM
I just hate reading comics with a back lit screen.
I don't like reading books with a back lit screen, but I do like it with comics. Don't really know why. I guess one reason is that it makes the colors really pop off the screen. I also really, really like some of the guided view experiences. Some of the panel reveals and transitions are great, and very artistic. Looking forward to seeing how this is implemented and created for with newer things, or with things like the Digital Cerebus in which a lot of time was put into those aspects.
The main thing is that 1) I don't want to collect comics. I don't want to bag them, store them, etc. And 2) I just don't have the space for anything else in my life. These are two of the main reasons I got out of reading comics (along with price - it's a very expensive hobby to keep up with).
The discovery of the digital comic book format has been great for me. I've been envying you guys for some time - you guys always have a plethora of new and exciting things to read. I just wasn't going to start buying and storing again. The digital versions have been exactly what I'm looking for.
D_Davis
11-11-2013, 11:21 PM
What's been really interesting is going back and reading how the comic book community has reacted to the digital format. It's exactly the way people reacted to the whole MP3 thing, but like 13 years later! I wonder how long it will take before it is the preferred method of enjoying the material, or if it will ever get to that point. I believe that e-books now outsell paper books (maybe just certain titles?), and that transition didn't take that long.
What I want to do now is go back and read how the artists and writers have approached the digital versions.
“I loved, was shocked, delighted, and amazed by the fact that the first best seller that DC Comics had on the iPad was Sandman No. 1. Just sort of going, this is a comic I wrote 23 years ago, and you’ve got this new technology, and it’s here right now. I think they’re brilliant. I really do. And I think that I do not have the allegiance to paper that I ought to. Perhaps I don’t have the allegiance to paper that I ought to because anybody who invests in The Absolute Sandman, all four volumes, is now carrying 40 pounds of paper and cardboard around with them. And they hurt and they complain, ‘Oh, I feel guilty.’ And I look at it and go, you’re not getting anything that is quantitatively or qualitatively better than the experience you’d be getting on an iPad, where you can enlarge the pages, you can move it around, it’s following the eye, and you can flip the pages.”
Gaiman, 2010
sevenarts
11-11-2013, 11:43 PM
I read plenty of digital comics but I think Guided View is just awful. Other than for digital-only books made with the format in mind, it totally destroys the unity of the page. I imagine that a lot of readers who come to rely on Guided View for all their comic reading will be largely unaware of the page design that goes into comics - comics, for the most part, aren't meant to be read with only one panel visible at a time, and the look of the page as a whole can be integral to the aesthetic and ideas of the work, especially with more formally sophisticated artists. I mean the thought of reading a JH Williams comic in Guided View is frankly just depressing. It can be a cool tool for analyzing a comic or momentarily focusing on a detail from the art, but it seems like a lot of people now use it to read entire books in that format. It's like looking at a painting with only one-eighth of the canvas visible at any given time.
D_Davis
11-12-2013, 12:31 AM
I read that a lot. It just works for me now. Maybe the novelty will wear off. I read Saga of the Swamp Thing when it was new, and I'm greatly enjoying the new guided experience. It's a completely different experience, and it's nice to have both available. I often switch between the two.
number8
11-12-2013, 12:39 AM
Guided View to me is like watching a movie pan-and-scan on an airplane seat monitor. It gets the job done, but it robs a movie's visuals of its own values and demotes it to a mere receptacle. In the same way, I think some people don't see a comic book page itself as its own piece of art. It goes back to all my criticisms of people who believe that a comic book is analogous to a storyboard.
I, too, love digital comics, and I applaud Marvel for leading the charge in doing things like bundling a free digital copy with their print issues or their Netflix-style Marvel Unlimited subscription, but my main problem with it is that I can't help but see print and digital comics as two very different languages, and half the time, they really don't translate well into each other.
I like digital comics best when they're conceived to be viewed digitally. Look at something like the Thrillbent comics and how they use panel transitions (http://thrillbent.com/comics/insufferable/insufferable-season1-chapter-1/#10), or how some webcomics use the infinite space (http://www.artboiled.com/2012/scott-mcclouds-infinity-canvas-and-that-insanely-big-xkcd-comic/), and that to me is taking advantage of their format. Even something as simple as The Private Eye's landscape pages. For print comics, I believe in the art of the construction of the panel sizes, and the power of well-placed splash pages and two-page spreads, which are lost when you can resize or homogenize them. I just finished reading a PDF copy of the new Lone Wolf & Cub omnibus and quickly got very annoyed at having to constantly scroll back and forth because Kojima would render some battle scenes in these long landscape panels that cross pages.
ledfloyd
11-12-2013, 01:51 AM
Yeah, outside of buying a tablet that's the size of a two page spread, it's hard to get a 1:1 experience.
I do prefer digital comics though because, as Davis said, I'm at a point in my life where I'm concerned about the amount of stuff I'm accumulating and comics take up a ton of space. I do wish they were cheaper, but you can just wait until the next issue is out and grab them for $1.99, which is nice.
D_Davis
11-12-2013, 02:24 AM
I do prefer digital comics though because, as Davis said, I'm at a point in my life where I'm concerned about the amount of stuff I'm accumulating and comics take up a ton of space. I do wish they were cheaper, but you can just wait until the next issue is out and grab them for $1.99, which is nice.
Yeah - I figure it's like video games. Stay a month or two behind and I'll be able to enjoy some deep discounts.
megladon8
11-12-2013, 03:36 AM
Would anyone be interested in collaborating on a little comic project?
For me, it's about presence--the physicality of the artwork. Why go to a museum when you can just take a google image tour through the Impressionists?
Reducing possessions is all great, and if reading digital is what gets people to read comics, groovy. I don't begrudge anybody anything. But the weightless abstraction of flipping through scanned digital panels removes a huge chunk of the experience for me. I love to see/feel ink strategically splayed across paper.
number8
11-12-2013, 03:22 PM
Just buy print comics and then throw them in the trash after reading. Problem solved!
D_Davis
11-12-2013, 03:50 PM
Just buy print comics and then throw them in the trash after reading. Problem solved!
That's how the big comics in Japan are consumed. All those big Shonen Jump phone books are purchased, read, and recycled. All printed with crappy ink on news print. I love that style. Totally anti-collector mentality.
I have very little attachment to printed, physical material any more. I used to, for sure. But now, I just don't care about the pages, or that new book smell, or the feel of ink, or any of that stuff. Just give me the story. Everything else is just something to worry about, something to collect dust, something to store, box, and move, and something that needs more physical space.
number8
11-12-2013, 05:26 PM
Well, that's because they're weekly magazines, essentially. People only treated them as books once they're collected in takobons. To be fair, though, American comics were the same way too, that's why they sold them at newsstands. It wasn't really until 1990 that comics became not disposable. It's the reason why so many old comic creators got screwed on royalties. Reprinting and archiving comics in trades wasn't considered a thing.
D_Davis
11-12-2013, 05:39 PM
Nice! Just a couple of days ago I was wondering why there were no Doom Patrol or Hellblazer collections available on Comixology, and it looks like the first volumes of each were released today. Bonus - the Hellblazer collection also includes the Swamp Thing issues with JC.
ledfloyd
11-12-2013, 11:01 PM
For me, it's about presence--the physicality of the artwork. Why go to a museum when you can just take a google image tour through the Impressionists?
This is a false equivalency. If my copy of Fourth World had the actual pages that Jack Kirby pencilled it would be different. Nobody goes to a museum to look at prints.
Ezee E
11-12-2013, 11:55 PM
Do any comics (besides variants) achieve a value these days?
Grouchy
11-13-2013, 12:19 AM
I love collecting. I love shelves filled with books and comics. I love my own, of couse, and other people's are always the first thing to catch my eye about their houses.
I also pay a lot of attention to stuff like cover design, binding, etc. I guess I have a bit of a fetish that way.
This is a false equivalency. If my copy of Fourth World had the actual pages that Jack Kirby pencilled it would be different. Nobody goes to a museum to look at prints.
Which is why I stressed presence and physicality, not authenticity. Not a great metaphor, but my point remains. Much rather see a print than a scan of a print.
Winston*
11-13-2013, 12:46 AM
Do they not scan the originals?
Do they not scan the originals?
Hmmm. I'm not choosing the best words. And I'm definitely not intending to propose an either-or situation, as I'm perfectly happy to look at scans of things online. But physical things like packaging and texture and weight are important to me in experiencing visual fine art. When all of my books look like my iPad and feel like my iPad, an essential novelty is gone. I don't know if something like Stephen King's The Stand would have had the same effect on me if it wasn't this gargantuan freakin' thing. The Bible's spiritual heft has always been in direct proportion with its physical heft, which strikes me as a huge deal.
Oh, and to answer your question, I do believe that most of the time, yes, modern digital comics are scans of the initial final product (which are sometimes then additionally fine-tuned beyond what's on the paper).
Winston*
11-13-2013, 01:36 AM
I just spend too much time in front of a screen in the average day, so it's nice for reading to be an activity that doesn't involve one.
Winston*
11-13-2013, 01:37 AM
But aren't comic books the original screens???
D_Davis
11-13-2013, 01:37 AM
There is definitely some kind of post-processing going on, because the e-versions of The Swamp Thing look amazing, much better than they ever did in the single issues. I'm sure this is simply due to the inferior paper and printing processes they used back then. Many of the modern comics are already basically made with computer assistance (especially in the coloring), and the modern paper and printing processes used today are better, so I'm sure that the difference between the p- and e-versions of new stuff isn't quite as dramatic.
D_Davis
11-13-2013, 01:40 AM
Hmmm. I'm not choosing the best words. And I'm definitely not intending to propose an either-or situation, as I'm perfectly happy to look at scans of things online. But physical things like packaging and texture and weight are important to me in experiencing visual fine art. When all of my books look like my iPad and feel like my iPad, an essential novelty is gone. I don't know if something like Stephen King's The Stand would have had the same effect on me if it wasn't this gargantuan freakin' thing. The Bible's spiritual heft has always been in direct proportion with its physical heft, which strikes me as a huge deal.
I've been reading King a lot lately, and I gotta tell you - I hate lugging around those massive things. They take up too much space in my bag, the covers get all bent up, and they're just a pain to hold while laying down in bed. I recently swapped out my Dark Tower VII hardback for the Kindle version, and I ended up buying Doctor Sleep on the Kindle. Much better for me.
But hey - we're just arguing personal preference here. Not claiming that one is better than the other.
And I still have shelves of "real" books - I'm just more selective in what I keep on them.
megladon8
11-13-2013, 03:44 AM
This may make me sound like some kind of freak, but I've always loved the smell of books.
D_Davis
11-13-2013, 05:40 AM
This may make me sound like some kind of freak, but I've always loved the smell of books.
I think most people who like books do. I just got over it at some point during the last few years.
Skitch
11-13-2013, 11:06 AM
How long does it take you guys to read a trade paperback? It takes me forever. I study every panel, and can't proceed until I feel I understand the reasoning behind every layout. Is that weird? I estimate it takes me 30-45 minutes to get through one issue.
EyesWideOpen
11-13-2013, 11:48 AM
How long does it take you guys to read a trade paperback? It takes me forever. I study every panel, and can't proceed until I feel I understand the reasoning behind every layout. Is that weird? I estimate it takes me 30-45 minutes to get through one issue.
Depending on the book I'd say probably 20-30 minutes to read through a trade. If it's a single issue usually about 5 (unless it's Mind MGMT where there is a bunch of stuff to read and look at).
I don't think it's weird. Take as long as you want.
number8
11-13-2013, 01:16 PM
I'm with D, when it comes to prose books. I much prefer reading novels on my Kindle than on paper now. Don't really care or have attachment about the physicality of it.
The only reason I feel differently about comic books is not so much the feel or the smell or anything. It's as I said before, tablets just don't give you the same view of the page art, and since I consider a whole comic book page to be part of the storytelling, I don't think reading a ported over digital comic is getting the full story. Of course, not everyone thinks it's that big a deal, and I'm fine with it; some people don't care about watching cropped fullscreen DVDs, while it drives me crazy.
And it gets even worse if you're not just reading modern Marvel and DC comics. Pre 1970 comics used a different size paper. Manga uses a different standardized size. Indie comix, ashcans, come in all shapes and sizes. When novels are printed in different sizes, it usually doesn't matter to how the story is told, but comics, paper size is pretty damn significant to layout, sequential movement, font size, etc etc, aka storytelling. To view them all through the same size screen just feels wrong, like bringing binoculars to a movie theater or something, so I try to avoid it if I can.
Grouchy
11-13-2013, 02:38 PM
How long does it take you guys to read a trade paperback? It takes me forever. I study every panel, and can't proceed until I feel I understand the reasoning behind every layout. Is that weird? I estimate it takes me 30-45 minutes to get through one issue.
I read crazy fast. Not just comics but everything. It probably never takes me more than 40 minutes to read a regular-sized TP. However, when that happens I always feel like I didn't pay enough attention to the art so I come back to it later. It usually pays off.
I think Cortázar's Hopscotch would be one tricky book to read on a Kindle. I've never read a book that way, but having to come back to the index pages all the time to find your way would become a pain in the ass.
number8
11-13-2013, 02:46 PM
Do any comics (besides variants) achieve a value these days?
Short term, yes, long term, no.
I was gonna work on stuff today (day off!), but I think I'm going to crash and read a lot of comics instead. It's been a few weeks. I'm halfway through Kindt's Super Spy (OMG), have Red Handed in the queue, have my weeklies to pick up (incl new series Umbral and Unity, can't wait, the nearing-conclusion of the architecturally brilliant Deathmatch, etc), got the first HC of Hawkeye, need to catch up with that, recently procured from Powell's in Portland an Antony Johnston train robbery comic as well as another trade of Sin City (Bullets, Booze, Broads).
Also I have about a billion other things to read, just in case.
When i was working at the LCS, we found a first printing of Chew #1 and sold it for a couple hundred.
The first several issues of Remender's Uncanny X-Force are still quite pricey.
New 52 Nightwing #1 costs mad money for some reason.
There are collectibles out there, but it seems random which books get the honor.
D_Davis
11-13-2013, 03:24 PM
I think Cortázar's Hopscotch would be one tricky book to read on a Kindle. I've never read a book that way, but having to come back to the index pages all the time to find your way would become a pain in the ass.
Right - there are some books that need to be read in paper book form, books that usually have some kind of gimmick to them.
Although, a hypertext book would be great, and I'd love to see more of that on the iPad. A fully interactive version of House of Leaves (with sound and animation), or Geoff Ryman's 253 (although I guess the original online version is exactly that, but I read it in book-form first) (http://www.ryman-novel.com/), or Ballard's The Atrocity Exhibition would be great. This kind of thing would work great for non-linear, experimental fiction.
Hopefully there will be more comic books and prose books created specifically to be read on devices like the iPad.
D_Davis
11-13-2013, 11:26 PM
So over the last few years, I've read and heard a ton of great stuff about Y the Last Man.
Uh....does it get, like, a lot better after issue 1? Because man, that was really, really bad. The dialog is atrocious and art is mediocre at best.
slqrick
11-13-2013, 11:40 PM
So over the last few years, I've read and heard a ton of great stuff about Y the Last Man.
Uh....does it get, like, a lot better after issue 1? Because man, that was really, really bad. The dialog is atrocious and art is mediocre at best.
Yes.
sevenarts
11-14-2013, 12:30 AM
Y definitely gets better, though a certain amount of overly blunt dialogue is par for the course with Vaughan. It's a real fun book, the acclaim is well deserved, multiple stretches of it are amazing, and the final act is especially stellar. If you thought issue 1 was that bad, though, it may just not be for you.
D_Davis
11-14-2013, 12:31 AM
I hope so, because man...after that I have no desire to continue.
So the writing and art both get a lot better? The story seems cool, but I can't hang with that on-the-nose dialog.
D_Davis
11-14-2013, 12:33 AM
Y definitely gets better, though a certain amount of overly blunt dialogue is par for the course with Vaughan.
Yeah - on-the-nose dialog is one of my biggest turn-offs. I'll check out a few more issues to see if I can dig it. If not, no big deal. There are plenty of other things out there to dig.
Grouchy
11-14-2013, 12:57 AM
Yeah, I was gonna say... I read Saga's first two volumes and I liked it, the world-building is really good and it introduces lots of fun concepts, but the dialogue sucks. It constantly underlines things which don't really need to be pointed out in dialogue.
The only other thing I've read by Vaughan is Pride of Baghdad, which for obvious reasons kind of side-steps that problem.
The only other thing I've read by Vaughan is Pride of Baghdad, which for obvious reasons kind of side-steps that problem.
...and yet it still manages to be off-puttingly blunt.
sevenarts
11-14-2013, 01:07 AM
I wouldn't say it sucks, I really do like Vaughan a lot. I think of Vaughan's dialogue as pulpy and at times didactic, and yes, it can be distracting at times, but most of the time it's more than balanced by the conceptual fun of his ideas, his strong character work, his great storytelling and pacing. Y and Saga are both great and very much worth reading. His Runaways was also a ton of fun.
There's nothing wrong with the art in Y though.
D_Davis
11-14-2013, 01:18 AM
The art is serviceable. Not much style to it, at least in issue one.
number8
11-14-2013, 02:08 AM
That is his dialogue style. If that's such a big issue for you, I can't honestly tell you that it gets "better."
D_Davis
11-14-2013, 02:43 AM
:D If that's his "style" I think I'll just move on.
I am going to try Saga, though. I do like the art in that one.
D_Davis
11-14-2013, 01:14 PM
I started reading The Hollows, by Sam Keith and Chris Ryall last night. Really weird - it has exposition bubbles. It has dialog bubbles that point to stuff - like BURNED ARM >>>> - to tell the reader what things are.
Shouldn't we be shown what things and people are in context to the story? I read the first issue of the collection, and it feels very lazy. It's as if Ryall doesn't trust Keith's art to convey the things he wants to in his words, so he has to spell things out, and usually this comes at the expense of the the art and immersion.
I do really like the art, though.
Grouchy
11-14-2013, 04:30 PM
That is his dialogue style. If that's such a big issue for you, I can't honestly tell you that it gets "better."
Well, that's good to know.
number8
11-15-2013, 03:58 PM
Really dismayed to find out that Brian Wood is a sketchy fucking asshole.
http://comicsbeat.com/comics-have-hit-puberty-and-its-not-pretty/
Doesn't surprise me. Dude's nothing if not fueled by testosterone.
number8
11-15-2013, 06:31 PM
Wood just posted a response.
For the last couple weeks I’ve been accused of a lot of very serious things. I feel I have to speak up for myself and for my friends and colleagues who are finding themselves under a sort of scrutiny they don’t deserve. This situation has reached the point where it is affecting people who in no way deserve it, up to and including my family.
Tess Fowler is correct about this: I did make a pass at her at SDCC Hyatt bar roughly 8 years ago. But when she declined, that was the conclusion of the matter for me. There was never a promise of quid pro quo, no exertion of power, no threats, and no revenge. This was at a time in my career when I had very little professional power or industry recognition. The pickup was a lame move, absolutely, and I’ll accept the heat for having done it, but that’s all it was: I liked her, I took a chance, and was shot down. I immediately regretted it, and I apologize to Ms. Fowler for the tackiness and embarrassment of it all.
I’ve kept quiet for these last couple weeks because this is a problematic thing to address without unintended blowback. While I believe she is as incorrect as she can be about what my intent and motivations were, I don’t want to encourage any negative opinion directed back at her.
I think the larger issues of abuse in the comics industry are genuine and I share everyone's concerns. As a father to a young daughter showing an interest in making her own comics, I do really care about this stuff. So I don’t want our difference of accounts to take attention away from that industry-wide discussion that needs to happen.
Brian Wood
11/15/2013
Kind of a non-response, don't you think? Doesn't really address her accusations.
number8
11-16-2013, 03:26 AM
If I had a nickel for every time anyone accused of being sexist or predatory pulls out the "I have a daughter" card...
Here's Tess (http://tessfowler.tumblr.com/post/67091692836/my-response)' response.
I find it astonishing that she moved on and kept it to herself for 8 years, and all this only came into the open because Brandon Graham called Wood an asshole and a fake feminist on twitter.
Skitch
11-16-2013, 12:29 PM
Wow. It surprises me that this stuff still goes on.
This Huston/Ryp Wolverine book is totally nuts. Way better than its reputation.
number8
11-18-2013, 05:41 PM
A former DC staffer came out with her story.
http://annescherbina.tumblr.com/Nottheotherwoman (http://annescherbina.tumblr.com/Nottheotherwoman)
Wood locked down his twitter account shortly after this went out.
Skitch
11-19-2013, 09:40 PM
A former DC staffer came out with her story.
http://annescherbina.tumblr.com/Nottheotherwoman (http://annescherbina.tumblr.com/Nottheotherwoman)
Wood locked down his twitter account shortly after this went out.
Hmm. So Wood is jackass and DC should've done something about him, but it doesn't sound like she was woefully mistreated? She's mad that he told people what she tweeted/texted him?
EyesWideOpen
11-19-2013, 11:18 PM
Hmm. So Wood is jackass and DC should've done something about him, but it doesn't sound like she was woefully mistreated? She's mad that he told people what she tweeted/texted him?
What?
He requested a blowjob from her and she declined. He tells his coworkers that she offered him a blowjob and he declined. There's a huge difference there.
Skitch
11-20-2013, 01:21 AM
What?
He requested a blowjob from her and she declined. He tells his coworkers that she offered him a blowjob and he declined. There's a huge difference there.
Yes I said he's a Jackass, but is that a criminal activity? It surely would be if she was working for him but it didn't sound like she was?
ledfloyd
11-20-2013, 01:29 AM
I don't think anyone is calling him a criminal. Going to the press and saying "Hey, this girl at DC wants to bang me" is... I can't even think of the right word for it. Pathetic? Disgusting? It's one step above revenge porn, which is also technically legal, but jeez.
Winston*
11-20-2013, 01:55 AM
I don't think anyone is calling him a criminal.
She even says in the article that what happened wasn't criminal.
I'm not going to read Wood's books in protest! Granted, I wasn't going to read them anyway since I don't really care for his writing, but this is an important stand!
Kurosawa Fan
11-20-2013, 03:30 AM
Just finished the first volume of Pluto. Waiting to buy the rest of these is going to be tough. Why can't I live near a decent library system? I really need to relocate.
This Huston/Ryp Wolverine book is totally nuts. Way better than its reputation.
Yes. This book is distilled madness. Probably my favorite Wolverine story. Huston's address of the healing factor scratches itches that I've long felt needed scratching. Surreal, hysterical, with just the right amount of tasteless. Ryp kills it. All the crazy cosmic stuff and the hyperdetailed ultraviolence... it's just #### lovely.
...an Antony Johnston train robbery comic...
The Long Haul. It's like Ocean's Eleven in the Old West. Zippy, with impeccable draughtsmanship (Barreto, why don't I know you?).
Also reading Lucifer, which is about fifty times better than I was anticipating. Gives me similar vibrations to Delano and Milligan, and certainly is the most compelling thing I've read by Carey. Any recommendations of anything else by him, aside from The Unwritten?
dreamdead
11-25-2013, 01:35 AM
Julie Maroh's Blue is the Warmest Color was quite touching. Strangely affecting in the simplicity of its color design, but before it was even a fourth of the way done, it was already fully immersive. Some of the stuff in the middle feels just a bit rushed (when Clementine and Emma first interact), but the ending is so smooth that such issues of compression are largely alleviated. Really good stuff.
megladon8
11-25-2013, 03:37 PM
Alan Moore's recent statements about super heroes and the people who read the comics and watch the movies i's insulting, to put it mildly.
While surely his rabid fans will come to his defense and say how brilliantly true everything he said is, I'm getting really tired of this guy.
Brilliant writer and all, but jesus he's a dick.
D_Davis
11-25-2013, 03:43 PM
Where are these statements? I'd like to read them.
http://m.ign.com/articles/2013/11/25/alan-moore-finds-success-of-the-avengers-alarming
Essentially saying that superhero comics are now being written for older, "emotionally subnormal" men. I agree with his suggestion that the massive popularity of Marvel movies does speak to a degree of cultural immaturity.
Meg, content yourself with the fact that he is making sweeping statements about something with which he does not engage.
megladon8
11-25-2013, 04:34 PM
"I think it's a rather alarming sign if we've got audiences of adults going to see the*Avengers*movie and delighting in concepts and characters meant to entertain the 12-year-old boys of the 1950s."
I'm surprised he can even see us mere mortals down here, from thst high horse he's on.
D_Davis
11-25-2013, 04:53 PM
Not surprising, I generally agree, at least in the specific terms of the Marvel movies.
The bar for good genre entertainment is so low now, that a movie like The Avengers - all the latest Marvel movies - has become one of the most successful and beloved movies in recent memory. The films are vapid, have zero character, very little dramatic drive, and are, in general, poorly written and made outside of the f/x and spectacle, which, in some cases (like Captain America) even the f/x work is poor.
I don't believe that anyone who enjoys super hero stuff is some kind of emotionally-stunted manchild, and I also think it's OK for adults to sometimes embrace nostalgia and the inner-child. I do, however, believe that geek culture has taken that too far, as is evident in adult men liking My Little Pony in a completely non-ironic manner.
There does come a time in our lives in which I think it's good to put (most) childish stuff behind, but that doesn't mean that we have to completely abandon these things.
But that's just what I think. Others are different.
Skitch
11-25-2013, 05:26 PM
Brilliant writer and all, but jesus he's a dick.
I've said it a thousand times. His writing talent is undeniable...but he's a fucking weirdo.
EyesWideOpen
11-25-2013, 11:12 PM
My only problem is that he's said multiple times that he doesn't read modern superhero comics or watch superhero movies so he's talking out of his ass.
Irish
11-25-2013, 11:39 PM
The original Guardian interview (which IGN rips off) offers more background on the Moore thing:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/22/alan-moore-comic-books-interview
I think he's right, but his comments, as attributed, are narrow and unnecessarily insulting.
Edit: Interesting that this was originally published last Friday, but nobody noticed until IGN swiped a few choice quotes. Also found it funny that Moore couldn't resist talking shit about Grant Morrison again.
Edit: Interesting that this was originally published last Friday, but nobody noticed until IGN swiped a few choice quotes.
"Nobody" is pretty strong. This sporadically dormant, six-person thread is probably not a good gauge of such things. Also, it could be that observations of Moore complaining are entirely unnecessary. Meg's post here is exactly the same as twenty others in this thread. He's Alan Moore. Yup, he still has strong opinions...
...opinions, by the way, informed by decades of work in the industry. Maybe he's "out of touch," but he has been--and still is--writing comics (of generally astounding quality) for longer than most of us have been alive. To conclude that he knows nothing of what's going on in the business is presumptive, even considering his own admissions, which I imagine are more sweeping than anything. "I don't read them" is different from "I haven't read them."
Plus, wouldn't you find it strange if someone told you that they hated modern superhero comics and then proceeded to name all the ones that they read? Know anyone who hates reality television? Next time they vocalize their opposition, ask them which ones they watch.
Winston*
11-26-2013, 01:12 AM
To conclude that he knows nothing of what's going on in the business is presumptive, even considering his own admissions, which I imagine are more sweeping than anything.
Especially considering he's written superhero comics since Watchmen.
Irish
11-26-2013, 01:46 AM
"Nobody" is pretty strong. This sporadically dormant, six-person thread is probably not a good gauge of such things. Also, it could be that observations of Moore complaining are entirely unnecessary. Meg's post here is exactly the same as twenty others in this thread. He's Alan Moore. Yup, he still has strong opinions...
I didn't mean this thread (although I can see why you thought I did). I meant in the larger sense. A couple of my projects follow a ton of pop culture media outlets. "Nobody" was talking about this over the weekend. Today, everybody is.
...opinions, by the way, informed by decades of work in the industry. Maybe he's "out of touch," but he has been--and still is--writing comics (of generally astounding quality) for longer than most of us have been alive. To conclude that he knows nothing of what's going on in the business is presumptive, even considering his own admissions, which I imagine are more sweeping than anything. "I don't read them" is different from "I haven't read them."
I agree in large part. I suspect that Moore is knowledgable about his own industry & still has plenty of contacts there, even if he's not picking up Green Lantern every week.
I assume the rest of your post isn't directly addressed to me, because I didn't say much, if anything, about the stuff you're talking about.
EyesWideOpen
11-26-2013, 02:26 AM
Especially considering he's written superhero comics since Watchmen.
He hasn't been involved in big 2 comics in 25 years which are the two companies he's constantly railing against.
EyesWideOpen
11-26-2013, 02:41 AM
I think he's right, but his comments, as attributed, are narrow and unnecessarily insulting.
That's a good way of putting my thoughts on it. I stopped reading DC & Marvel comics and for the most part superhero comics all together for similar reasons to his but I wouldn't begrudge someone else getting enjoyment out of it.
megladon8
11-26-2013, 03:20 AM
I really don't feel like I fit in here anymore.
Grouchy
11-26-2013, 03:39 AM
If you read the article, his rant against superheroes comes right after the interviewer says to him that Geoff Johns did a Green Lantern saga that's a spin-off of one of his stories. Given his history of conflict with the Big Two and the fact that even Crisis on Infinite Earths is based on his work, it's really not surprising at all.
The only thing that's surprising, actually, is his attack on Grant Morrison. I wonder where that comes from.
Irish
11-26-2013, 04:14 AM
The only thing that's surprising, actually, is his attack on Grant Morrison. I wonder where that comes from.
That is long and bizarre story (as you'd expect, given the people involved). There was another dust up sometime last year. Comics Beat had a long article about it, well sourced. Google around "Alan Moore Grant Morrison feud" and you'll find more than you ever wanted to know. To paraphrase Skitch -- talented guys but big fucking weirdos.
@Megladon Nonsense. You fit fine. I tend to take these articles in stride, because mainstream reporters can't resist needling Moore about certain topics. They know he will say something juicy. Honestly, I don't think I've read anything about him in the last then years where the interviewer didn't ask about DC, movie adaptations, or, more slyly, about Morrison.
Grouchy
11-26-2013, 05:44 AM
Comics Beat had a long article about it, well sourced.
Jesus (http://comicsbeat.com/the-strange-case-of-grant-morrison-and-alan-moore-as-told-by-grant-morrison/). Well, on this case, Moore is clearly the biggest asshole.
Skitch
11-26-2013, 11:48 AM
Every interview I've read with Moore sounds like a man in the grips of a drugged out paranoia. Is he a drug guy?
megladon8
11-26-2013, 06:01 PM
@Megladon Nonsense. You fit fine. I tend to take these articles in stride, because mainstream reporters can't resist needling Moore about certain topics. They know he will say something juicy. Honestly, I don't think I've read anything about him in the last then years where the interviewer didn't ask about DC, movie adaptations, or, more slyly, about Morrison.
Eh...when Moore says that folks who like superhero comics and movies are creepy manchildren and the popularity of these things shows an overwhelming emotional immaturity in society, and that is met with an almost unanimous "he's absolutely right!" on here, I don't feel like I fit in wjth this discussion group too well.
In the 1960's we had a film hero named James Bond who promoted racism, sexism, misogyny and murder. Now we have a superhero team with a leading member who is female, and their boss is a black guy. We still have a long ways to go for sure, but I don't think that pop culture is regressing.
Grouchy
11-26-2013, 06:24 PM
Well, I don't think he's absolutely right. For one thing, everyone who knows who he is or cares about what he says started out reading superhero comics, regardless of whether they still do it. Also, arguably, Promethea, Tom Strong and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen all fit under the general banner of the superhero genre, so he's never as far away from it as he thinks he is.
I just think... He's Alan Moore, man. It's OK if he wants to hold all forms of storytelling to a ridiculously high standard, because usually he maintains that standard in his own comics. But in the real world of Hollywood big business, if you make a large big-budget tentpole about the Avengers, people are going to go to see it, regardless of the actual quality of the storyline - which I don't think was all that awful in this particular example - out of sheer love for the characters. I don't think that's a good thing, but I don't share his level of outrage, of course.
I find anti-superheroism more interesting when Garth Ennis writes it. The Boys is a goddamn masterpiece of superhero bashing.
Grouchy
11-26-2013, 06:26 PM
Every interview I've read with Moore sounds like a man in the grips of a drugged out paranoia. Is he a drug guy?
He must have done more acid or mushrooms during his youth than you and me could possibly dream of.
He currently worships a giant snake goddess.
number8
11-26-2013, 08:57 PM
I don't understand where the "recent" comes from. Moore's been saying LITERALLY THE EXACT SAME THING for a decade. Why are these articles still written, and why are comic fans still taking offense? Oh wait, I just answered my own question. Here's a shock: when he's interviewed by people who actually knows the comics industry, like Padraig from The Beat, Moore doesn't make insulting generalizations, because they wouldn't be fucking dumb enough to ask him about Marvel or DC or superheroes in order to get easy link bait quotes.
number8
11-26-2013, 09:03 PM
I've got a crystal ball to 2015.
"Hey Alan how about that Batman vs Superman?"
"Stupid. Juvenile."
"FANBOYS LOOK OMG ALAN MOORE HATES YOU."
"Rabble rabble!"
"$$$$!"
megladon8
11-26-2013, 09:19 PM
"Superheroes are stupid childhood fantasies and the people who read them are pathetic, emotionally stunted man children. I haven't read superhero comics since I wrote Watchmen."
"Wait, Alan. You've written superhero comics since Watchmen. What does that say about them?"
"Well obviously my stuff is excluded. I'm bloody brilliant."
"So then the people who read your work are exempt to, right?"
"Fuck no! My work is brilliant but the readers are retards."
number8
11-26-2013, 09:33 PM
Well that's just immensely inaccurate, considering he's talked about those WildCATS and Spawn days and admitted that he phoned those in without reading or knowing anything about those characters. His best work in that period, Supreme, he completely rebooted and turned into a love letter to the Superman era he's fond of, because he wasn't familiar with and didn't really give a shit about Supreme.
Why would anyone think that Moore thinks his comics are beyond criticism? The guy said Killing Joke was shit.
Grouchy
11-26-2013, 10:25 PM
Here, meg, a question for you - do you really give a shit if Alan Moore thinks you're a pathetic manchild? Would you let it get to your head or change the things you want to read? Because, like 8 says, he's been saying that stuff for ages now. At this point all it gets from me is a chuckle and I move on. I get it, none likes insults, but the main target of his anger is corporations and not the average reader.
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