Battlestar Galactica

[EvilShoe]

Oh Morris.

[Raiders]

Urgency is at an all-time low for this series and specific matters such as should Cylons and humans coexist just don't have the pressing weight that they should.

You're joking right? There was an entire mutiny over this and people ask the question about 10 times per episode.

[Qrazy]

This show feels like it's dying. There were a few solid moments scattered to and fro - Adama and Tigh embracing and crying at the end was semi-powerful - but my interest is beginning to wane. Urgency is at an all-time low for this series and specific matters such as should Cylons and humans coexist just don't have the pressing weight that they should.

Oh, but wait! Chief Tyrol is using black goo to fix cracks in the ship's hull. Exciting stuff!

It's been about 50/50 for me. The mutiny episodes were good... the others... weren't.

[Raiders]

I don't know what everyone else's reaction will be to this episode, but I flat out loved it. Little to no action, and some more soap opera, but Sackhoff was excellent and it set the stage for some great DRAMA over the last three episodes. Maybe my favorite of the entire season so far. That final image was perfect.

I think it's pretty clear now that either:

Starbuck is a form of Daniel or her father was Daniel.

[Qrazy]

It was pretty good but I didn't love it. The whole mind meld mental construction bit was fairly out of the blue. I'm guessing they introduced it in order to tie up the Balter head 6 loose end.

[Raiders]

It was pretty good but I didn't love it. The whole mind meld mental construction bit was fairly out of the blue. I'm guessing they introduced it in order to tie up the Balter head 6 loose end.

Huh? You mean between Boomer and Tyrol? The cylon's ability of projection has been brought up, and shown, before this episode.

[[ETM]]

I'm with Raiders on this one - great episode. It's been a while since there was this kind of emotion involved. There were a couple of moments that literally punch you in the gut, and McCreary hit it out of the ballpark with the music.

[Qrazy]

Huh? You mean between Boomer and Tyrol? The cylon's ability of projection has been brought up, and shown, before this episode.

When? Don't recall.

[Morris Schæffer]

You're joking right? There was an entire mutiny over this and people ask the question about 10 times per episode.

I was talking specifically about episode 16. The mutiny spearheaded by Gaeta and Zarek was prior to this and it was indeed a thrilling high point. All that is happening now feels like boring aftermath filler in comparison. And come on Phil.

"Wow, that was uneventful."

Your words.

[Raiders]

I was talking specifically about episode 16. The mutiny spearheaded by Gaeta and Zarek was prior to this and it was indeed a thrilling high point. All that is happening now feels like boring aftermath filler in comparison. And come on Phil.

"Wow, that was uneventful."

Your words.

Yes, good job quoting me on one episode. You never mentioned you were referring to only one specific episode with your comment about the human/cylon coexistence. It seemed obvious I was referring to the season at large.

[Morris Schæffer]

Yes, good job quoting me on one episode. You never mentioned you were referring to only one specific episode with your comment about the human/cylon coexistence. It seemed obvious I was referring to the season at large.

No, not directly I guess. I merely said that my interest was beginning to wane with episode 16, but perhaps I was premature and we're off for a great conclusion.

[Mara]

When? Don't recall.

When Gaius is on the Basestar with Six, she explains how projection works and describes that she sees whatever she chooses to see within the ship.

This was the first time that we saw a) anyone "sharing" a projection or b) one of the final five (who are fundamentally different) projecting.

I was okay with it.

And I loved this episode, ESPECIALLY the music.

[[ETM]]

This was the first time that we saw a) anyone "sharing" a projection

Nope - they specifically stated, IIRC, that they share certain projections, like the imaginary forest instead of the corridors on the basestar, etc.

Btw, Bear McCreary has posted a huge three-part analysis of the music in the episode on his official website.

[Qrazy]

When Gaius is on the Basestar with Six, she explains how projection works and describes that she sees whatever she chooses to see within the ship.

This was the first time that we saw a) anyone "sharing" a projection or b) one of the final five (who are fundamentally different) projecting.

I was okay with it.

And I loved this episode, ESPECIALLY the music.

Ah k thanks.

Still it must be a bit fucked projecting or sharing projections of things that don't exist. I sort of prefer my sensory perceptions to be decent approximations of reality so that I don't bumble about and fall down a great deal.

[number8]

Trailer for a failed BSG sequel pilot Richard Hatch made in 1999:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybIyzTO4zhU

[number8]

By the way, my favorite of the season too. The Starbucks/Daddy half was obviously awesome, but the Tyrol/Boomer relationship was just incredible.

But is it weird that I kept thinking, "Helo can't tell the difference? Do Athena and Boomer have the same pubic hair?"

[Mara]

But is it weird that I kept thinking, "Helo can't tell the difference? Do Athena and Boomer have the same pubic hair?"

This bothered me. I mean, they were programmed with the same personality and memories at one point, so they are more alike than most 8s, but COME ON.

[EvilShoe]

Maybe Helo knew, but figured this was the perfect opportunity to get away with adultery.

[Mara]

Maybe Helo knew, but figured this was the perfect opportunity to get away with adultery.

She's biologically identical to his wife, just bitchier!

It's like every man's dream come true.

[Raiders]

I would imagine Grace Park has the same pubic hair as Grace Park.

[number8]

I would imagine Grace Park has the same pubic hair as Grace Park.

:confused:

[Raiders]

:confused:

Nothing really. Just wanted to talk about Grace Park's pubes.

In actuality, discussing the scene seriously, I would think that in the heat of the moment he probably isn't comparing their shaving habits. And we already know that humans cannot tell cylons apart in any distinguishable way.

[number8]

The flute! Gets me every time.

[[ETM]]

That was a great follow-up to last week. Olmos is a really good director.

The preview makes it look as if
Adama is sacrificing the ship in a suicide mission, but I think he's thinking something else this time.

[number8]

I have never wanted to go to the UN more.
(http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.c om/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-united-nations.html)

[[ETM]]

Aw hell yes. That's bizarre and logical all at the same time. It's gonna be fun at conventions, when Frakheads start rubbing it in: 'Oh yeah? OUR show got a Peabody, AND it was discussed in the UN, beyotch!'

[D_Davis]

I just finished S3 of BSG, and I am consistently amazed by how much better it is than any other SF show I've seen since The Twilight Zone. I kept hearing from people about how the show gets worse each season, but so far I haven't experienced this. Sure, there are a few dud episodes (episodes 3 and 4 and S3 are terribly directed and edited, which is a real shame because the scenarios are great), but overall the series has remained incredibly well written, produced, and acted.

It truly captures the spirit of literary SF in that it focuses on the humanity of the situations, and I also admire how it tackles religion - kudos for that.

I avoided this show for years, mainly because I thought I wouldn't like it: Made for Sci-Fi, often conjured in the same breath as Firefly and Buffy (two shows I didn't like) - these are two main reasons why I avoided it.

Boy was I wrong.

Rarely do I come across a non-literary example of solid SF, but BSG totally nails it.

I would love to see the same team do a mini-series of Joe Haldeman's The Forever War - that would be amazing. I can imagine that being the greatest SF thing ever filmed...

[Mara]

I kept hearing from people about how the show gets worse each season, but so far I haven't experienced this.

I don't find that to be the case at all. And the fourth season has been excellent.

While I really enjoy Buffy and Firefly, they really don't have anything in common with BSG. The tone and dynamic are completely different.

I don't blame you for being blown away. The Season 3 finale had some powerful stuff.

[Qrazy]

I just finished S3 of BSG, and I am consistently amazed by how much better it is than any other SF show I've seen since The Twilight Zone. I kept hearing from people about how the show gets worse each season, but so far I haven't experienced this. Sure, there are a few dud episodes (episodes 3 and 4 and S3 are terribly directed and edited, which is a real shame because the scenarios are great), but overall the series has remained incredibly well written, produced, and acted.

It truly captures the spirit of literary SF in that it focuses on the humanity of the situations, and I also admire how it tackles religion - kudos for that.

I avoided this show for years, mainly because I thought I wouldn't like it: Made for Sci-Fi, often conjured in the same breath as Firefly and Buffy (two shows I didn't like) - these are two main reasons why I avoided it.

Boy was I wrong.

Rarely do I come across a non-literary example of solid SF, but BSG totally nails it.

I would love to see the same team do a mini-series of Joe Haldeman's The Forever War - that would be amazing. I can imagine that being the greatest SF thing ever filmed...

Season 4 is where the show's quality dips the most severely. Soap opera dramatics and tenuous narrative plotting become more apparent. But yeah it's still largely worth watching.

[EvilShoe]

Season 4 is where Gaius becomes less interesting. (Although he's more enjoyable again in the second half).

[[ETM]]

Save for couple of episodes, I have found all the "soap opera dramatics" criticism of BSG to be largely exaggerated. But I agree on Baltar being given less to do and thus becoming less interesting in S4.

[number8]

;144881']Save for couple of episodes, I have found all the "soap opera dramatics" criticism of BSG to be largely exaggerated.

I generally don't understand this criticism. I think the melodrama has always been part of the show since, hell, since the mini-series. I don't think season 4 escalated this in any way. Wouldn't it actually be season 3 that did, what with the Starbuck-Anders-Lee-Dee love rectangle? Even that I thought was handled beautifully.

[[ETM]]

Even that I thought was handled beautifully.

Agreed. It's just in the recent few, like the one with Ellen, Saul, Six and their baby where you can actually look and sort of say "Yeeah, I can see what you mean", although it is still strongly tied into the very essence of the show, which is something that is often overlooked.

[number8]

Nah. I loved that too. Amazingly strong acting by Hogan in that episode, which I believe can conquer theatrical situations.

[[ETM]]

Nah. I loved that too. Amazingly strong acting by Hogan in that episode, which I believe can conquer theatrical situations.

Hogan has been increasingly awesome throughout the show.

[Qrazy]

I generally don't understand this criticism. I think the melodrama has always been part of the show since, hell, since the mini-series. I don't think season 4 escalated this in any way. Wouldn't it actually be season 3 that did, what with the Starbuck-Anders-Lee-Dee love rectangle? Even that I thought was handled beautifully.

The melodrama has always been there to an extent but when it's there without a compelling narrative thread serving as backdrop it becomes much less effective. This is also why I said it becomes more apparent. It was always there and always a weak point of the show but when it's there without any substance backing it up it becomes all the more histrionic and hollow. For instance...

the lawyer threatening to shoot Lee. Tigh's unborn baby. The president's cancer escapades. All of this and other similar segments are a complete waste of space imo. Melodrama has to be earned with extraordinary content... when the content is banal the melodrama becomes absurd.

[Qrazy]

Nah. I loved that too. Amazingly strong acting by Hogan in that episode, which I believe can conquer theatrical situations.

What is there to love? It's a narrative thread that provokes some minor conflict and is then quickly aborted since it's not really going anywhere.

Also when I say soap opera I'm not only referring to the drama but to the storylines and there execution. To refresh my memory of Caprica 6's history I recently read the battlestar wiki and viewing her arc in such a condensed form really brings out the soap opera associations.

At the beginning of the miniseries, a Six copy[1] is involved in an intense sexual affair with Dr. Gaius Baltar. Pretending to be an employee of a rival computer corporation, Six seduces Baltar while helping him with his work on the Colonial defense system. Six then reveals her true nature to Baltar, and informs him that the Cylons will use the computer secrets that he has given her to infiltrate the Colonial defense systems, disable the Colonial military and attack the Twelve Colonies. That day, the Cylons launch their attack and destroy most of humanity. Six uses her body to shield Baltar from a blast during the attack, saving his life and sacrificing hers.

In the episode "Downloaded", this copy is downloaded into a new body. This Six, nicknamed "Caprica Six" by fellow Cylons, is viewed as a hero amongst the Cylon civilization for her complete success in her mission to compromise the colonies' defenses. She retains her sentimentality and expresses some regret at her actions, as evidenced by her constant visions of Baltar. This "Phantom" Baltar plays a similar role to her that the virtual or 'inner' Six plays towards the real Baltar, as a critical counselor and manipulator. Caprica Six is enlisted to motivate the resurrected Galactica copy of Sharon "Boomer" Valerii to move out of her apartment and reintegrate into Cylon society. However, in defiance of their superiors, both Caprica Six and Sharon opt instead to aid Samuel Anders, to the extent that Caprica Six murders a Three, to save him. Caprica Six and Sharon then begin preaching peace with the humans as the way of God. This leads them to take over Cylon culture and to resume the hunt for humanity, leading them to the colony of New Caprica, which they take over in a bloodless coup facilitated by Baltar, who surrenders to Caprica Six as soon as the Cylons arrive.

After the Cylon occupation of New Caprica, Caprica Six alienates the other Cylons with her desire for peaceful coexistence with humans. Her reunion with the real Gaius Baltar, however, shatters her illusions about her former pawn, as Baltar impotently allows the Cylons to bully him into enacting their oppressive tyranny upon New Caprica.

The other Cylons insist Baltar must sign an execution order for 200 insurgents in response to two suicide bombings by the human resistance movement. Baltar initially refuses and Caprica Six alone objects strongly to her fellow Cylons' desire for mortal retribution. These objections result in her being shot in the head by fellow Cylon, Aaron Doral. Her death and an immediate threat to shoot Baltar force him to sign the order. Caprica Six is reborn and helps Baltar escape onto a Cylon Basestar when New Caprica is ultimately abandoned by its population.

After settling on the basestar, she becomes involved in a ménage Ã* trois with Baltar and Biers and explicitly states that she loves both of them. She was also instrumental in rescuing an inexplicably sick Hera from the Basestar. She assists in Athena's download and witnesses the obvious bond between Athena and Hera. Caprica subsequently disables and then kills Boomer who threatens to throttle Hera despite Athena's anguished pleas. She leads Athena and her child to a captured Raptor and returns with them to Galactica, where she is promptly imprisoned. In this situation she is frequently used as a source of information about and means of understanding the Cylon's motivations.

Colonel Tigh begins to make more frequent stops to her cell, questioning her about what it's like to exist as a Cylon. He confronts her about being responsible for the deaths of billions and whether she feels any remorse or if she can just 'flip a switch' and shut out the pain. Caprica Six questions Tigh's reasons for the line of questioning, unaware that Tigh is one of the Five Unrevealed Cylon Models. When she goads him about needing to feel pain, he turns to leave but she assaults him and bludgeons him. To her surprise he cries and begs for more pain, but in response she abruptly aborts her assault, shakes her head and replies that he doesn't need any more pain. She then kisses him passionately.

Dr. Cottle later reveals that Caprica Six is pregnant. It is revealed that Tigh is the father of the baby. After it is revealed that Tigh is one of the 'Final Five' Cylons, Caprica Six's relationship with Tigh changes. The significance of her pregnancy increases as the child will not be a human-cylon hybrid, but will be a pure Cylon offspring. Caprica Six begins to live with Tigh in his quarters on Galactica and the two now share a very intimate and caring relationship. However when Ellen Tigh returns, she, Tigh and Caprica Six fight about who Tigh really loves, and Caprica Six loses the baby.[2]

The non-canon novelization of the miniseries by Jeffrey A. Carver suggests that Caprica Six went by the name Natasi.

[number8]

I don't know why... I got teary when Roslyn crossed the red line.

[Mysterious Dude]

Helo's first name is "Karl"?

[number8]

Helo's first name is "Karl"?

Yeah, Karl Agathon. They revealed that a long time ago.

EDIT: Wiki tells me it was revealed in "33", so the very first S1 ep, heh.

[D_Davis]

One of my favorite things about BSG is how the show develops characters that other shows would simply toss away.

For instance, Hilo and Sam Anders.

Season 1 - 3 spoilers:

After Hilo sacrificed his spot on the Raptor for Baltar, I thought for sure we would never see him again. I imagined this was a safe attempt made by the creators to say, "see, we can kill off characters." even though Hilo was really just a slightly glorified redshirt at this point. However, when the narrative returned to Hilo I was shocked, and as it continued to follow him he quickly became an interesting character - one of my favorites. Now, at S4, the dude is just awesome. He's been the CAG, the XO, he's handled social problems and the show's most interesting depictions of race relations between the cylons and humans are shown through him and Boomer's relationship.

Another character like this is Sam Anders. I thought for sure he would die off early in a blaze of glory, becoming one of those characters that people would say about, "Man, I wish Sam didn't die so early, he was awesome!" However, they keep him alive, and they keep him around. Eventually I got kind of tired of him, and I had a hard time imagining what his point was. But then, BAM!, and, well, now we'll just have to see.

[Qrazy]

Gah Moore is still wasting time. The final ep better deliver.

[Raiders]

Gah Moore is still wasting time.

Strange comment. You don't know what the final two hours will show so you don't know if anything was wasted. To me this was a great setup. These are the kinds of episodes that happen in a show with a single overriding arc. It has set up a lot of great possibilities and has me excited for the final episode, which seems to me its purpose.

[Qrazy]

Strange comment. You don't know what the final two hours will show so you don't know if anything was wasted. To me this was a great setup. These are the kinds of episodes that happen in a show with a single overriding arc. It has set up a lot of great possibilities and has me excited for the final episode, which seems to me its purpose.

Reposted from elsewhere:

http://www.stallioncornell.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9150

“Other shows explain things. We’re much more sophisticated than that.”

“Sophisticated?” I said. “How is it sophisticated to avoid answering a fundamental question that your audience has been asking for four years?”

“Oh, I’m happy to answer questions,” chuckled the IHMW. “This week is the first part of the series finale, after all. It’s chock full of answers to the burning questions that sophisticated viewers ought to be asking. For instance, we finally find out how Roslin’s sisters and father died.”

“We what?” I said.

“Haven’t you always wondered how they died?”

“Well, not really,” I answered. “I’d never given a moment’s thought to Roslin’s father or sisters. I didn’t know she had sisters. And if I had thought of it, I guess I’d just have assumed that they blew up along with the 50 billion other people in the Cylon nuclear holocaust.”

“Wrong!” IHMW cackled, clapping his hands sophisticatedly. “They were killed by a drunk driver!”

I shifted uneasily, unsure of how to respond to this.

Still, the Ronnette continued. “And do you know what Roslin did right after she heard the news?”

Still speechless, I shook my head.

“She went outside.” IHMW smiled a toothy grin.

“That’s all? She just… went outside?”

“No,” Ronnette snorted. “That is NOT all. She walked into a public fountain and stood there, fully clothed, while everyone gaped at her. She just stood under the spraying stream and let the water pour on her hair. Which is ironic, because she no longer has hair. We make this point using cinematographic juxtaposition,” Moore said, speaking with so much sophistication that I physically shuddered.

“Oh,” I said. “But what about –“

“What about Adama’s job interview?” Ronnette interrupted. “That’s what you were going to say, right?”

“What?”

“Haven’t you ever wondered what Adama’s job interview to take over the Galactica was like?”

“No,” I said. “Not at all.”

“Well, shows how deep you are,” the Mooreine sniffed. “Because there was a job interview. With an old bald guy. We’re going to be sure to show that in the finale.”

“Why?”

“What?”

“I said ‘why?’” I was befuddled, and not just by the beefy scent of the apparition’s Burger King perfume. “I mean, you’ve only got three hours left, and you have a lot of ground to cover. You really want to waste the last bit of time you have to wrap everything up with throwaway footage from Adama’s job interview?”

“Well, maybe you’re right,” Moore said, nodding. “We have to leave time to see the first time Lee, Mancow, and Zack went out to dinner.”

“Excuse me?”

“See, Lee shows up at Mancow’s apartment and they meet each other. And they exchange pleasantries. And then Lee says hi to his brother. And they engage in playful banter. And Mancow wears a very feminine dress, which is not typical of what she wears nowadays. So you learn that Mancow was less butch when she was engaged to a dude who’s now dead. That answers a lot of questions, don’t you think?”

“What questions?”

“You know. Questions. Real questions. Questions like ‘was Mancow less butch when she was engaged to a dude who’s now dead?’ And ‘did Lee and Zack ever engage in playful banter before going out to dinner?’ Questions like that.”

I shook my head. “What if I couldn’t care less about questions like that?”

“That means you’re shallow and have no appreciation for character development,” he/she said. “Plus I need that scene to set up the answer to an even more important question.”

“Which is?”

“Which is,” Moore drawled, exasperated, “what would a drunken Lee Adama do if he were attacked by a pigeon?”

“What would…”

“The answer, just so you know, is that he would shoo the pigeon away with a broom.”

“I see,” I said. “But we haven’t even gotten to…”

“To Baltar’s Scottish father, you’re right,” Moore said. “We have to leave about half the time to point out that Baltar’s dad was a dirty old coot with a Scottish accent. On all twelve colonies, only Baltar and his father are British, you know. Sure, Xena Cylon #3 was from New Zealand, but that hardly counts, does it? Wait, don’t answer that question. It’s not sophisticated enough.”

Somewhere in the distance, a pie drooped.

“Those aren’t my questions,” I said. “I want to know-“

“- about Baltar’s dad’s rest home arrangements? Of course you do. Don’t worry. Caprica 6 took care of those. That shows what a kind, giving lady she was, if you overlook her killing babies and blowing up a dozen inhabited planets.”

“See, that’s the problem,” I said, ignoring the drooping pie. “You realize that you have not satisfyingly answered the question at the root of this show’s premise?”

“I haven’t?” Moore said, frowning. “Should I have explained how much of Colonial rest homes are covered by Medicaire?”

“No,” I said. “You still, after four years, haven’t explained why the Cylons blew up the Colonies.”

Moore scoffed. “Ummm, go watch the miniseries again, pinhead,” he said, sounding even more sophisticated than a delicate Grecian urn. “Children have to outgrow their parents.”

“Which, of course, explains nothing,” I said. “For instance, I outgrew my parents and moved out of the house, yet somehow I managed not to kill them in the process. And now we learn that the parents of the Cylons who planned the holocaust were the Final Five, not humans at all. And they created the skinjobs to avoid the holocaust that the skinjobs planned. And the one skinjob who claims the whole thing was a mistake is the one who’s behind it all, even now. We were told they have a plan; we were tantalized with lots of mysteries that have been retconned or ignored completely, and as the clock runs out, you’re doing everything you can to change the subject, to avoid facing the fact that the core premise of your show is a gaping black hole of incoherence.”

“George Bush sucks, though,” Moore said. “Don’t forget that. And Roslin got set up on a blind date once. After her family died in that crash. Didn’t you want to know about that?”

----

Anyway, the above will probably just annoy you, I found it mildly amusing. I hope to god you're right and Moore and co. wrap up the major plot threads successfully but even if they do there were still only two episodes I cared about this half of the season and those were the coup episodes.

[monolith94]

Just so long as the series doesn't end a la Sopranos...

[Sxottlan]

It seems like I was missing something when the rebel Cylons suddenly seemed so integrated into the fleet. Even to the point of flying joint patrols and such. That was the only good part of "Deadlock"; seeing a Cylon heavy raider flying in formation with Vipers.

[Raiders]

"The Last Frakkin' Special" made me sad.

[Mara]

"The Last Frakkin' Special" made me sad.

That reminds me... I was going to see if they have it online...

I don't see it. :(

[number8]

So the UN thing was last night. It sounded cool. Olmos got angry at a UN rep at one point:


For all the mutual agreement, at one point [Craig] Mokhiber [from the U.N.'s office of the high commissioner for human rights] ethically slipped in the eyes of the show's star, Edward James Olmos, when the U.N. rep dared to use the word "race."


"You should have never invited me here," Olmos said, voice rising. "I just heard one of the proliferative statements done by one of the great humanitarians: He's really trying to organize and bring us together and use the word 'race' as if there is a Latino race, an Asian race, an indigenous race, a Caucasian race or a Latino race. ... There's only one race, and that is the human race, period."

[number8]

That reminds me... I was going to see if they have it online...

I don't see it. :(

They had reruns of it all week. I hope you caught one.

I love Ron Moore's comment about the finale, which is how I see the show also, and addresses Qrazy's concerns and why we got these seemingly unrelated "happy moments" flashbacks..

He was trying to wrap things up, and was killing himself trying to figure out the plot of the finale, when things finally hit him... "Who gives a frak about the plot? The show is about the characters." So he wrote the finale more as a coda for these characters--seeing through their sadness and their joy--rather than an "answer."

Good for him.

[number8]

VIDEO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSFDrOxWCXY

[Acapelli]

So the UN thing was last night. It sounded cool. Olmos got angry at a UN rep at one point:
why would you leave out the best part?


Then, directing his attention to the high schoolers: "Adults will never be able to stop using the word 'race' as a cultural determinant....There is only one race: the human race. SO SAY WE ALL!"

I swear to you, everyone in that chamber shouted it right back at him. Because the Admiral asked us to.

[number8]

I made up for it with the vidya.

[number8]

The whole thing is up at the UN website, but it's in Real Media.

Who the frak still uses Real Media?

[Thirdmango]

Thinking about it there are only one or two questions left on my mind so I don't see how they could screw it up. Since the big question on my mind was who the cylons were and those have all been dealt.

[Qrazy]

They had reruns of it all week. I hope you caught one.

I love Ron Moore's comment about the finale, which is how I see the show also, and addresses Qrazy's concerns and why we got these seemingly unrelated "happy moments" flashbacks..

He was trying to wrap things up, and was killing himself trying to figure out the plot of the finale, when things finally hit him... "Who gives a frak about the plot? The show is about the characters." So he wrote the finale more as a coda for these characters--seeing through their sadness and their joy--rather than an "answer."

Good for him.

I commend the concept, I scoff at the execution. He's not John Cassavetes. He hasn't created a dramatically revelatory world or particularly deep characters. When the show was at it's best it was about strategic space battles, compelling conflict sparked by political disagreement, and world building in the day to day life of the fleet. Way back when there was also some great character stuff as well it's true. Odama rocks hard, Kara/Lee, Baltar, etc... but flashbacks about Roslin's dead family, Lee shooing pidgeons, and Baltar's father are insubstantial contributions to any facet of the show. I'm not even speaking narratively or in terms of mythos. Even if the finale wraps up every last question that has yet to be answered I will still consider the penultimate episode a waste of time... not because of the flashbacks, but because of what Moore chose to show in the flashbacks. The coup episodes were great but most of the other episodes this half of the season had a couple of solid moments encased in disposable fluff.

[[ETM]]

I strongly believe the short flashbacks will come into play in the events of the final episode.

[Qrazy]

;146527']I strongly believe the short flashbacks will come into play in the events of the final episode.

They should have had a flashback of how the lawyer met his cat.

[[ETM]]

They should have had a flashback of how the lawyer met his cat.

Now that would just be Qrazy.

[Mara]

So.

[[ETM]]

I don't know if I can do this... the anticipation is overwhelming.

[Mara]

I'm more nervous than anxious. I really want this show to end well. Strong.

[number8]

I'm... conflicted.

[Raiders]

I'm still trying to process that. Remarkable. Sad. Elegiac. Unforgettable.

[monolith94]

Hahahaha. Robots!
Wasn't what was great about the show the idea that the difference between cylons and humans was a metaphor for the meaningless divisions that divide us humans in general? And not that, actually, the moral of the story is that we should treat the coming singularity with respect and empathy? Kind of shot themselves in the foot there.

Also, when angel Six and angel Baltar told real Six and real Baltar that there lives were going to be less eventful from there on, I definitely got a "Aslan telling the child he's too old to go back to Narnia" vibe. This show had a very spiritual bent.

[Raiders]

Wasn't what was great about the show the idea that the difference between cylons and humans was a metaphor for the meaningless divisions that divide us humans in general? And not that, actually, the moral of the story is that we should treat the coming singularity with respect and empathy? Kind of shot themselves in the foot there.

Not really. The "robots" were always the problem. It was the cylons that could see past their limitations and programming that became singular with the human race. Those robots, like Cavil, stuck on their identity as solely a robot, as a "species separate from humanity" and conversely the humans that could only see themselves as separate and superior to the cylons, were their own ultimate destruction. The emphasis in the final moments is that we are on a path to another robotic rebellion. Cylons and humans became singular long ago.

[number8]

BABY.

I AM A BIG BABY.

[[ETM]]

I'm still trying to process that. Remarkable. Sad. Elegiac. Unforgettable.

I'm gonna use your words here. And go over and sob with Ary.

[EyesWideOpen]

That was bad. Incredibly bad. If Lost ends that poorly I'm gonna be devastated.

[number8]

Top 5 Favorite Moments from the finale:


5. Baltar's line, "I know about farming, you know?"

4. Tigh's "It's not too late to flush em all out the airlock."

3. Starbuck quoting Dylan.

2. Sharon's "I'll repay you someday, sir."

1. Doc Cottler kissing Laura's hand.

[number8]

Not really a moment, but also something I absolutely love is the fact that Kara's biggest fear is to be forgotten, and then Moore made her BSG's equivalent of The Sopranos' cut to black. They never confirmed what she is, they never clarified why she is the Harbinger of Death, they even made her exit super mysterious and paranormal, going against the show's original insistence on realism. By making fans argue about her--whether they like her end status or not--Moore made sure she stays memorable. I'm just strangely very appreciative of that.

[[ETM]]

they never clarified why she is the Harbinger of Death

People most often forget that those are the words of the Cylon hybrid, repeated like a mantra by all others, and Anders in the end. She WAS the harbinger of death in many ways, and did effectively lead the human and Cylon civilizations to their doom. But hybrids are broken creatures who see more of the "big picture" than anyone, but their perception is flawed like the failed creation they are, in the end. Kara is special, and played a pivotal role - spelling anything out beyond that would somehow feel insulting. The moment she disappeared hurt me, physically. I had no idea I had such emotion left until it hit me in the moment.

[Raiders]

That was bad. Incredibly bad. If Lost ends that poorly I'm gonna be devastated.

Have any reasons why? Other than they didn't answer your every aching question.

[Raiders]

Had a pinecar derby today at my wife's family's church. Here's mine:

http://i40.tinypic.com/s3h3qq.jpg

[Qrazy]

Have any reasons why? Other than they didn't answer your every aching question.

They didn't answer fuck all. 'God' was behind everything. Big woop.

[Raiders]

EDIT: Nevermind. The final season is very polarizing and the finale was no different. I have discussed this as much as I care to. I was blown away by the way the show wrapped up. I guess it is just a difference in perception of what the show tried to communicate.

[[ETM]]

EDIT: Nevermind. The final season is very polarizing and the finale was no different. I have discussed this as much as I care to.(...) I guess it is just a difference in perception of what the show tried to communicate.

YES. I have decided the same thing. Thankfully, the reactions were mostly similar to ours so the temptation is not that great.

[number8]

I find it endlessly fascinating how this show sneaked up spirituality on its audience (whether or not it did so successfully is another discussion, but lemme have my say here as someone who thinks it does). They made the first 2 seasons so grim and realistic, then in its final 2 so entrenched in mythology and faith, leading up to the conclusion that it really was God's plan all along.

Funny how the original Galactica drew from the Book of Mormon, but this Galactica ended up being even more theological. I'm an atheist and I don't buy into this force, spirituality what-have-yous, but I do like it in the context of fiction as long as it's openly discussed, portrayed and handled well. And I think they did because the audience experience mirrors the characters' acceptance of that fact, as represented most by Baltar. His conversion from scientist to preacher should have been a clue to what Ron Moore planned for the end.

However, I did read some comments online from people saying they were atheists and the final season made them agnostics. That's... sort of sweet. Kinda.

[Mysterious Dude]

I think "God" and the Baltar/Six ghosts are akin to the monolith in 2001. They represent an intelligence that is beyond our understanding, but it is not necessarily God.

"He hates being called that" is a telling line.

[Qrazy]

I find it endlessly fascinating how this show sneaked up spirituality on its audience (whether or not it did so successfully is another discussion, but lemme have my say here as someone who thinks it does). They made the first 2 seasons so grim and realistic, then in its final 2 so entrenched in mythology and faith, leading up to the conclusion that it really was God's plan all along.

However, I did read some comments online from people saying they were atheists and the final season made them agnostics. That's... sort of sweet. Kinda.

What was God's plan? What does that even mean? It's so absurd to me. OK so everyone who died and the entire journey was God's plan... and? What is the final yield of that? What does that say about anything?

Reposted from RT (only some of my thoughts, I don't touch upon everything I had problems with):

Someone else: "Yes the show has full "living breathing entities" of characters, but at no point does it ever let you think that they're not pawns on one giant chess board."

Me: To what end? Pawns to what end? Because God enjoys seeing everyone kill each other off and then saving people from extinction at the very last second? God's plan being what? If God wanted to end the cycle then having Tyrol go mental was not conducive to that. Alternatively if God is like the Christian God and he can only provide guidance but 'humanity' must choose for themselves to end the violence and all that good stuff, then the whole Kara resurrected plotline is asinine. The reason God's 'will' (i.e. finding the new earth) comes to fruition is a direct result of God's intervention i.e. taking a direct part in changing the course of events. So this is clearly not a God that does not intervene and let's free will run it's course.

So what is this God? My money is on an alien overseer (as per the he doesn't like being called that line). However, thinking of this God as an alien or as a pure 'God' i.e. an omniscient/omnipotent metaphysical entity does not yield any more answers or validation of the creature's 'plan'. If the 'plan' was to end the cycle it could/should've stepped in many times before. If the plan was just to fuck with people and then save them on the brink of extinction... what's the point? We have to fall back on the tried and true... we cannot know God's will... the greatest bullshit explanation in the history of explanations.

Also why was Tyrol out of the brig suddenly in this ep? And then why was he not punished after killing one of the final five. I mean WTF show. People have been put in the brig for much less than murder in earlier seasons.

If the show wanted to invoke God and destiny as an explanation then it should have set up some ground rules for the importance of 'free will' and then stuck to them.

[Qrazy]

I think "God" and the Baltar/Six ghosts are akin to the monolith in 2001. They represent an intelligence that is beyond our understanding, but it is not necessarily God.

"He hates being called that" is a telling line.

I agree but in terms of the narrative the final yield is still equally insubstantial. In the case of Kubrick's film it was substantial because the higher being was doing something specific... facilitating growth in specific instances in our development and then letting nature take it's course. Here though it doesn't make much difference if God is an alien or a metaphysical entity. So there is some entity out there which has a 'plan', one which we can never understand.

All we know is the plan has something to do with lots of people suffering horribly and dying, eventually achieving a tenuous peace, which then dissolves back into more death and suffering. The characters are supposed to take solace in this 'plan'? What a joke. Actually the distinction between a metaphysical God and a higher intelligence is important because at least in the latter case 'God' is not entirely omniscient/omnipotent and so it's actions serve some purpose because it is not all powerful, it can only bend the course of events. However, why is it bending events and in which direction is it bending them? It seems to be able to step in and make major changes when it wants to (resurrecting Kara) but in other circumstances it just lets everyone suffer. If it can resurrect, give visions, etc then why not just stop Baltar from showing 6 inside the defense mainframe from the get go. If the 'plan' was peace then the only explanation is that this higher intelligence hadn't entered the picture yet but this explanation is not feasible since head Baltar and head 6 speak of the earlier civilizations, the creation of which they were presumably involved in some capacity.

Reposted from RT (someone else's comments):

"Why does Rosalin have visions? God gave them to her.
Why are they going to Earth? God wanted them to.
What was the deal with the prophecy? God was giving them directions, but then later he said "Fuck it" and gave us an angel that gave us the exact coordinates for Earth.
Why does Baltar have a six in his head? It's a messenger from God.
How did the people who built the temple know there was going to be a supernova? God told them.
How did Kara come back? She's an angel from God.
Why was her destroyed craft on Earth then? God moved it there.
What was the deal with the operahouse? It was a vision from God, which ended up not being as important as the numerous foreshadowing would make it seem."

[monolith94]

Where would the human tribes on Earth who didn't have language have come from?

Also, it's kind of funny how the show leaves them there, with their descendents to face 15,000 years of human slavery, rape, murder, betrayal, and filth. It's like, they made it to Earth so that their children can participate in internecine wars! Hurrah!

[Qrazy]

Where would the human tribes on Earth who didn't have language have come from?

Also, it's kind of funny how the show leaves them there, with their descendents to face 15,000 years of human slavery, rape, murder, betrayal, and filth. It's like, they made it to Earth so that their children can participate in internecine wars! Hurrah!

Also there was absolutely no reason or need for that other tribe of humans. There were enough men and women from the fleet that the other race were entirely superfluous. Furthermore the show seemed to suggest there was more human/cylon interbreeding. I have no idea who was having sex with the hairy indigenous people. Presumably they were just there to drive home the statistical anomaly notion and that some greater force is out there guiding all of this nonsense.

[number8]

Where would the human tribes on Earth who didn't have language have come from?

Evolution. Duh.


Also, it's kind of funny how the show leaves them there, with their descendents to face 15,000 years of human slavery, rape, murder, betrayal, and filth. It's like, they made it to Earth so that their children can participate in internecine wars! Hurrah!

Well... "All this has happened before, and it will happen again."

[number8]

As for the "plan" and why it gets people through a lot of suffering, it's pretty much the old adage: "God moves in mysterious ways."

I'm not sure what's hard to understand about it. People are inherently a flawed creation because they have free will, but it's that free will that makes them people. The catch is that free will means they are prone to wars. We war, we go through suffering, we reach an end point, "God" intervenes here and there to lead us to achieve peace, like in the finale. Then human nature takes its course, wars start again, and "God" hits the reset button. The new Earth, our Earth, will be the old Kobol. Happened before, happens again.

So "God" keeps leading us through this cycle to keep testing us over and over until we can break the cycle. Is it now, is it another 150,000 or 150 million years? Who knows?

[monolith94]

Evolution. Duh.



So the series would have us believe in parallel evolution? That's a pretty far-fetched proposition.

[Sxottlan]

Some thoughts:

1. An enjoyable finale to a series that I never found as flawless as many did, but did eventually grow to like. The episode had the prerequisite number of baffling plot decisions for a television series finale. That said, I'm glad that the major irony here was that the show ended on a happy note for the most part. Not only that, but taking nearly a full hour for an epilogue on Earth was appreciated (although even more time could have been used to flesh out just how anti-tech they were going to try and be).

2. I enjoyed the conclusion to the Cylon war for the most part. Enough time has passed that we're able to forget that they somehow had a "plan" (relegated to a forthcoming telefilm where I'm sure it'll be shoehorned into what we've seen and somehow make sense) and just focus on those unrepentant for the annihilation of the human race. A simplification, but that's alright.

3. Now then, there were a number of moments that stood out for the wrong reasons. Like how Boomer finds a boarding party on this monstrous Cylon colony. Or you see Hotdog on Earth, but he doesn't seem to have his kid with him. Or how Adama randomly just up and leaves for good and everyone knows this and why except the audience (to go off and become the first wise old man on a mountain perhaps?).

4. Really for me the most challenging aspect, even more than the handing over of most everything to "God's will," was how the entire group of survivors decided to just drop everything and try to start over again. This seemed to me to be the fastest way the fleet's children don't learn the hard fought lesson the survivors just endured. I would have preferred a coda set a few years down the line where Cylon and human are fully integrated and technology is treated with respect. Completely walking away from it all only delays it again for an epoch. If they were looking for a reason why their remnants were not found, well, it is 150,000 years ago. It's staggering to think how truly far back that is. No reason why the hulk of Colonial One wouldn't have rusted away in that time. Just in all, this needed more fleshing out to determine just how far back they were willing to take themselves. Destroying a source of a lot of materials (the fleet) also seemed like a stupid way to provide a reason for why we don't find their remains anywhere.

5. Something I haven't seen commented on though is the touching use of the original BSG theme for the fleet's sailing into the sunset. That was indeed a great moment (and the fleet certainly seemed smaller didn't it?).

6. Another thing I loved not commented on was the location scouting. Great job here! Some absolutely breathtaking vistas that were just beautiful to look at. Must have been somewhere in Alberta or where ever it is they go to film those kind of shots in Canada.

[Qrazy]

As for the "plan" and why it gets people through a lot of suffering, it's pretty much the old adage: "God moves in mysterious ways."

I'm not sure what's hard to understand about it. People are inherently a flawed creation because they have free will, but it's that free will that makes them people. The catch is that free will means they are prone to wars. We war, we go through suffering, we reach an end point, "God" intervenes here and there to lead us to achieve peace, like in the finale. Then human nature takes its course, wars start again, and "God" hits the reset button. The new Earth, our Earth, will be the old Kobol. Happened before, happens again.

So "God" keeps leading us through this cycle to keep testing us over and over until we can break the cycle. Is it now, is it another 150,000 or 150 million years? Who knows?

Except God presumably created the cycle, presumably created human nature. An anthropomorphized God is asinine anyway. If anyone stops for a second to think about why human beings have the emotions we do they'd realize they're all inextricably tied to our mortality.

Anyway, you've sort of just glossed over my post? I said that the problem with all of the above is that a) the show never sets down any lore/mythos about God's role and the nature of free will in the context of this universe. Presumably we are meant to just assume this entity (either God or alien) acts according to the logic of the Christian God. Because everything you said about God above does not apply to all religions. Anyway OK, let's run with that definition/role for the entity.

The problem here is that God in relation to the show chooses completely arbitrary moments to 'lead' us to peace. Why not when 6 went for the defense mainframe originally? Why not the tenuous peace prior to Tyrol's anger and the nuking of the Cylon colony? Was it in 'God's' plan for that ship to 'accidently' fire it's nukes? OK well the arbitrary nature of 'God's plan' while still absurd then is still in keeping with the 'actions' of the equally absurd Christian God so let's move along...

The biggest problem is that when God does lead 'us', it's barely leading, it's shoving the characters in the back. Whether it's the song the final five heard, Kara's resurrection, the in head apparitions Baltar and Six saw or the visions the president and others witnessed. Either God's presence is almost entirely superfluous as in the case of the opera house visions. These visions prompted a very minor speech from Gaius which in the end game yielded nothing except the affirmation that there was another entity out there fucking with everyone.

Or God's presence is direct and changes the course of events such that character 'choices' take a back seat to the proceedings. Kara's resurrection, the song as coordinates to a new earth, the president not dying of cancer until reaching earth, etc, etc. The plothole filling list goes on and on, I posted some other issues above. At least when Lazarus and Jesus rose from the grave it was to demonstrate God's power and inspire belief, here the risen plays a pivotal role in the fate of an entire species.

[Qrazy]

4. Really for me the most challenging aspect, even more than the handing over of most everything to "God's will," was how the entire group of survivors decided to just drop everything and try to start over again. This seemed to me to be the fastest way the fleet's children don't learn the hard taught lesson the survivors just endured. I would have preferred a coda set a few years down the line where Cylon and human are fully integrated and technology is treated with respect. Completely walking away from it all only delays it again for an epoch. If they were looking for a reason why their remnants were not found, well, it is 150,000 years ago. It's staggering to think how truly far back that is. No reason why the hulk of Colonial One wouldn't have rusted away in that time. Just in all, this needed more fleshing to determine just how far back they were willing to take themselves. Destroying a source of a lot of materials (the fleet) also seemed like a stupid way to provide a reason for why we don't find their remains anywhere.

Furthermore the show was never really thematically anti-tech. It was certainly anti Artificial intelligence (and even then only to a degree) and anti-tech failings such as defense mainframe integration, but it's tech that allowed them to survive all this time in the first place.

[number8]

The problem here is that God in relation to the show chooses completely arbitrary moments to 'lead' us to peace. Why not when 6 went for the defense mainframe originally? Why not the tenuous peace prior to Tyrol's anger and the nuking of the Cylon colony? Was it in 'God's' plan for that ship to 'accidently' fire it's nukes? OK well the arbitrary nature of 'God's plan' while still absurd then is still in keeping with the 'actions' of the equally absurd Christian God so let's move along...

The biggest problem is that when God does lead 'us', it's barely leading, it's shoving the characters in the back. Whether it's the song the final five heard, Kara's resurrection, the in head apparitions Baltar and Six saw or the visions the president and others witnessed. Either God's presence is almost entirely superfluous as in the case of the opera house visions. These visions prompted a very minor speech from Gaius which in the end game yielded nothing except the affirmation that there was another entity out there fucking with everyone.

I didn't gloss over your post, as I was referring directly to it. This is what I was trying to say. "God" created humans, gave them free will so they can decide their own fate, and then "God" sits back, yes? That is the Judeo-Christian belief, which yes, is what the show uses because it's what I think the Cylons are always alluding to. Our Judeo-Christian beliefs come from them (while our Greek myths come from the 12 Colonies humans who still cling to them), which always emphasizes that God has a plan that we can never, ever, ever understand, and that God fucks with people to see us advance. God doesn't interfere directly, that's why God didn't do anything about the original Nuclear Holocaust. God picks heralds with prophecies and visions, and then make them work for it to be used to their benefit.

Everything on the show can be tied back to Starbuck (actually, funny, all the important players slept with each other: Baltar/Starbuck, Starbuck/Anders, Anders/Tori, Tori/Baltar, Baltar/Six, Six/Tigh, Tigh/Ellen, Ellen/Cavill). The Final Four heard "All Along the Watchtower" because it's tied to Starbuck, not as a seperate entity. I think the only one true divine intervention on the show is Starbuck's resurrection, which was set in motion long before, when her father composed All Along the Watchtower and taught it to her. That's her immaculate conception. Like Jesus, she was destined to sacrifice herself and then resurrect for humanity to see the truth (Earth being a barren Cylon colony, thus they have to find their own "Earth").

Hell, you might even say that the story of Jesus or Dyonisus or Horus and all these similar myths that we now know are a distorted result of Lee or Baltar or whoever passing down the story of Kara Thrace.

Yes, God's whole schtick seems arbitrary, but the plot of BSG is arbitrary in the first place, and the writers will tell you that. I see God as a meta-reflection of it. I've read interviews with Moore for years and all this time, he's never been afraid to admit that they made this up as they went along. They were always emphasizing character melodrama and thematic points over plot and mythology, and I'm fine with that. That's why I watch the show anyway. I'm sorry if some people feel cheated by it.

[Qrazy]

I didn't gloss over your post, as I was referring directly to it. This is what I was trying to say. "God" created humans, gave them free will so they can decide their own fate, and then "God" sits back, yes? That is the Judeo-Christian belief, which yes, is what the show uses because it's what I think the Cylons are always alluding to. Our Judeo-Christian beliefs come from them (while our Greek myths come from the 12 Colonies humans who still cling to them), which always emphasizes that God has a plan that we can never, ever, ever understand, and that God fucks with people to see us advance. God doesn't interfere directly, that's why God didn't do anything about the original Nuclear Holocaust. God picks heralds with prophecies and visions, and then make them work for it to be used to their benefit.

Everything on the show can be tied back to Starbuck (actually, funny, all the important players slept with each other: Baltar/Starbuck, Starbuck/Anders, Anders/Tori, Tori/Baltar, Baltar/Six, Six/Tigh, Tigh/Ellen, Ellen/Cavill). The Final Four heard "All Along the Watchtower" because it's tied to Starbuck, not as a seperate entity. I think the only one true divine intervention on the show is Starbuck's resurrection, which was set in motion long before, when her father composed All Along the Watchtower and taught it to her. That's her immaculate conception. Like Jesus, she was destined to sacrifice herself and then resurrect for humanity to see the truth (Earth being a barren Cylon colony, thus they have to find their own "Earth").

The song is played throughout the ship (awakening the final five), Hera has some sense of the arrangement of the song and Kara's father taught it to her. All of these are presumably a result of 'divine' intervention and the sum total of the song/pattern is to provide coordinates to a new planet. By the by the song supposedly predated Kara because Anders used to play it on the 'original' Earth. Anyway, this song as well as all of the above Godly interventions I posted a couple posts back are not suggestive of the Judeo-Christian God sitting back and allowing free will to take it's course. This is what I am trying to get at. If the show was planning to take the story in that direction then they they muddled the execution. Because this God is not the Judeo-Christian God letting events play out as they 'must'. This God uses visions, in head projections, resurrection and a variety of other methods to get what it wants. Basically this God is a plothole filler.


Hell, you might even say that the story of Jesus or Dyonisus or Horus and all these similar myths that we now know are a distorted result of Lee or Baltar or whoever passing down the story of Kara Thrace.

Yes, God's whole schtick seems arbitrary, but the plot of BSG is arbitrary in the first place, and the writers will tell you that. I see God as a meta-reflection of it. I've read interviews with Moore for years and all this time, he's never been afraid to admit that they made this up as they went along. They were always emphasizing character melodrama and thematic points over plot and mythology, and I'm fine with that. That's why I watch the show anyway. I'm sorry if some people feel cheated by it.

I feel cheated because the melodrama was by far the weakest part of the show and everyone sleeping with everyone is not compelling or operatic to me, it's soap-operatic, repetitive and tedious. As I mentioned a while back the strategic space battling, world building and the examination of morality in relation to extreme situations (banning abortion, political reorganization, etc)... are what interested me about the series.

[Mara]

I actually wrote up a very long response this weekend on my crappy home computer, which froze up and lost it. Now I'm having wrist problems and so am trying to keep typing to a minimum.

So, in brief: I really loved 90% of the finale. They did a great job of tying in some loose ends, particularly the fantastic operahouse pieces from several seasons ago. And the shots of the earth near the end were heart-breakingly beautiful that I cried a little.

What I didn't love:

I still thought that the flashbacks added nothing. I felt like they were trying to bookend the characters, but instead it just felt like a distraction.

The last three minutes were played kind of badly. OHNOOOESROBOTS!

Also, HAHAHA, Hera grew up to be a slut.

[EvilShoe]

This was probably answered in an earlier ep, but I must've missed it:
How come the cylon five were able to age?

[Morris Schæffer]

I wasn't too enamored of the last batch of episodes, but the finale made a lot of things right. Yeah, there was great action, but like Raiders said, it was sad, elegiac and it made me feel exactly like I should, namely realizing that I'm gonna miss these characters.

Standout moments:

- Anders and the fleet heading into the sun.
- Tyrol's wife Callie suddenly into the picture again. I gasped during that Cylonian mind meld!
- Everything on Earth was beautiful times infinity.
- Baltar firing a gun at friendlies (Lee, etc...) and really appearing insanely gung-ho! :lol:

Nevertheless, people dig the "150,000 years" later bit? I would have been perfectly allright had it ended with Adama sitting on that hilltop while the camera pans away. What does that ending mean anyway?

Anyway, so long guys!

[Qrazy]

Nevertheless, people dig the "150,000 years" later bit? I would have been perfectly allright had it ended with Adama sitting on that hilltop while the camera pans away. What does that ending mean anyway?


It's a ham fisted reference to the cycle of man/machine conflict most likely continuing. The cycle wasn't broken.

[Morris Schæffer]

It's a ham fisted reference to the cycle of man/machine conflict most likely continuing. The cycle wasn't broken.

Pretty shitty coda then.

[EvilShoe]

Anyone?

This was probably answered in an earlier ep, but I must've missed it:
How come the cylon five were able to age?

[Qrazy]

Pretty shitty coda then.

Indeed.

[Qrazy]

Anyone?

To the best of my knowledge it wasn't answered.

[Raiders]

They didn't answer that, really. We can assume they are a different breed of "cylon," if that's even the right word, that made up the colony on Earth. Remember, it was they who built the other eight models and they didn't pass on all of their traits (like the ability/knowledge for reincarnation, they are also resistant to the cylon virus that kills the other seven models). They also have the ability it seems to easily procreate as would a human. In every sense, they are much more human and organic than even the seven humanoid models.

[[ETM]]

Pretty shitty coda then.

That's just Qrazy's reading of it.

@Evilshoe - as far as I understand it, the Five were "normal", complete with aging on Earth (the first one). They had invented the resurrection and downloaded to new bodies in a spaceship in orbit when the nuclear holocaust began. I believe cylon bodies do age, it's just that they are created at a certain age to begin with. We'll know exactly once "The Plan" comes out, because that's precisely what it deals with.

[Qrazy]

They didn't answer that, really. We can assume they are a different breed of "cylon," if that's even the right word, that made up the colony on Earth. Remember, it was they who built the other eight models and they didn't pass on all of their traits (like the ability/knowledge for reincarnation, they are also resistant to the cylon virus that kills the other seven models). They also have the ability it seems to easily procreate as would a human. In every sense, they are much more human and organic than even the seven humanoid models.

The only problem with this is that they're seemingly (at least Ellen) reborn into the same resurrection hub. It would be nice if the show had cleared up this discrepancy.

[Qrazy]

;148321']That's just Qrazy's reading of it.


And your reading differs how? That it's not necessarily implied that the cycle will continue but rather it's just cautionary such that the cycle could continue? I think the former reading has more support given the content of Head 6's and Baltar's conversation and the montage of the robots at the end.

[Morris Schæffer]

;148321']That's just Qrazy's reading of it.

Seems like a fair reading on his behalf. I'm siding with him.

[[ETM]]

And your reading differs how? That it's not necessarily implied that the cycle will continue but rather it's just cautionary such that the cycle could continue? I think the former reading has more support given the content of Head 6's and Baltar's conversation and the montage of the robots at the end.

I'm choosing to read it as cautionary, albeit as the "last warning". It's about as positive a message as the show ever managed to convey. I find it cute, rather than weak. It's perfectly fine for people to chose to ignore it and end at the mountain with Adama.

The ending reminds me of the ending of Doctor Who's "Blink", actually. "Who" does it tongue-in-cheek and I'm reading the BSG version in a similar manner. It was cute, nothing more, and certainly not something to bicker over, as I've seen people do already.

[Qrazy]

;148334']I'm choosing to read it as cautionary, albeit as the "last warning". It's about as positive a message as the show ever managed to convey. I find it cute, rather than weak. It's perfectly fine for people to chose to ignore it and end at the mountain with Adama.

Whether it's implied that the cycle continues or it's just suggested it could continue (a last warning) I'd still feel it was ham fisted in it's approach to it's thematics and in tying the show to the present day. In terms of whether or not the cycle will continue I agree that it's left ambiguous.


;148334']The ending reminds me of the ending of Doctor Who's "Blink", actually. "Who" does it tongue-in-cheek and I'm reading the BSG version in a similar manner. It was cute, nothing more, and certainly not something to bicker over, as I've seen people do already.

I don't understand these kinds of arguments. That to me is saying I liked it so please don't criticize it... given that bickering arises from disagreements about the relative effectiveness of a moment.

[[ETM]]

I don't understand these kinds of arguments. That to me is saying I liked it so please don't criticize it... given that bickering arises from disagreements about the relative effectiveness of a moment.

Perhaps I chose the wrong word... I meant - there's too much talk about it, which is kind of silly seeing as you can simply ignore it if it bothers you. I've been having really tiresome arguments about the show these days and... yeah, it shows in my posting.

[Raiders]

The only problem with this is that they're seemingly (at least Ellen) reborn into the same resurrection hub. It would be nice if the show had cleared up this discrepancy.

They created resurrection, and by extension the hub technology. That hub was near New Caprica when she died. How else would she come back?

EDIT: Perhaps you mean where did these "copies" of themselves come from in order to resurrect. Well, if you remember, Cavil had boxed them when he rebelled against them and he released them at his will. He was the one who was sort of running the whole show. You'll notice when Cavil meets Ellen when she resurrects, he is alone and rather isolated in the ship. Likely that the human-friendly, truth-seeking models did not know of any of this (potentially none of the other models knew at this point).

[Qrazy]

They created resurrection, and by extension the hub technology. That hub was near New Caprica when she died. How else would she come back?

EDIT: Perhaps you mean where did these "copies" of themselves come from in order to resurrect. Well, if you remember, Cavil had boxed them when he rebelled against them and he released them at his will. He was the one who was sort of running the whole show. You'll notice when Cavil meets Ellen when she resurrects, he is alone and rather isolated in the ship. Likely that the human-friendly, truth-seeking models did not know of any of this (potentially none of the other models knew at this point).

No I meant something slightly different. You discussed the differences between the two models of cylons (the final five and the new seven) but if they are so different (and they are) how can they resurrect from the same hub? Also I think it may have been mentioned but what happened to their old hub that they downloaded into off of Earth? Also who killed them on Earth, another form of robot that the final five model cylon made? What happened to those guys?

Anyway, how can they produce new bodies for the final five to resurrect (Ellen we know at least) when these bodies are so different from the other seven models? Why can't they produce similar bodies for the other seven? It makes sense that the final five would keep the knowledge of resurrection to themselves. However, it doesn't make sense how they would have the resistance to the virus (that just seems like an inconsistency to me) or the ability to procreate more easily and not pass on these traits to the other seven models.

Also we still don't know where the hybrids came from do we?

[EvilShoe]

Thanks for the replies, all.
It did seem strange I'd have missed such a vital piece of information.

I had pretty much the same thoughts as Raiders.

ETM: I don't believe the new breed of cylons age. Didn't the miniseries show us a factory filled with Boomers (or something similar to that)?
They all looked the same, so I don't believe they age as well.

[Qrazy]

Thanks for the replies, all.
It did seem strange I'd have missed such a vital piece of information.

I had pretty much the same thoughts as Raiders.

ETM: I don't believe the new breed of cylons age. Didn't the miniseries show us a factory filled with Boomers (or something similar to that)?
They all looked the same, so I don't believe they age as well.

Perhaps they're in something similar to cryostasis and only age once they're released from stasis. I would say they have to age simply because that's the nature of organic material, even with mechanical implementation.

[Raiders]

No I meant something slightly different. You discussed the differences between the two models of cylons (the final five and the new seven) but if they are so different (and they are) how can they resurrect from the same hub?

I think they are likely similar enough that it works the same for all the models and the five. They gave the eight models the "gift of resurrection" so it must be assumed, and is certainly implied, that their biological bodies are capable of performing the same feats required in resurrection.


Also I think it may have been mentioned but what happened to their old hub that they downloaded into off of Earth?

I don't remember what supposedly happened to their original ship, if anything.


Also who killed them on Earth, another form of robot that the final five model cylon made? What happened to those guys?

Yes, they were the original cycle of robotic "centurions" rising up and destroying their makers all the way on earth 2,000 years before the present day of the series. Their trip to the other colonies was to prevent it from happening, which is why when they arrived they brokered the deal with the centurions to give them biological, humanoid models if they stopped the war. Of course, this plan fell through when Cavil rose up, boxed the five and with the other models re-ignited the war against humanity.


Anyway, how can they produce new bodies for the final five to resurrect (Ellen we know at least) when these bodies are so different from the other seven models? Why can't they produce similar bodies for the other seven? It makes sense that the final five would keep the knowledge of resurrection to themselves. However, it doesn't make sense how they would have the resistance to the virus (that just seems like an inconsistency to me) or the ability to procreate more easily and not pass on these traits to the other seven models.

I agree that the virus resistance seems a little off, but it was never a huge plot point. As for the rest, seems obvious that the seven models have the necessary parts to perform resurrection even if their biological construction is a little different from the five.


Also we still don't know where the hybrids came from do we?

God. :P

[Raiders]

Actually, for the hybrids, I remember in Razor, Adama saw the original, older hybrid being created. I think they were a quasi-humanoid created by the five that were not to be among the main models but were there to communicate directly to the ship and essentially drive the basestars.

If you think about it, the cylon models control the ship via the red stuff that is linked straight to the hybrids. Makes sense that the receiving end would need to be humanoid enough to perceive the messages being relayed.

[[ETM]]

No no no, it has been stated specifically that the Centurions have been trying to evolve on their own and all they could manage were deeply flawed combinations of human tissue and machine, which would become known as hybrids. They proved to be useful in basestars, but since their consciousness operates on a different level, at least one became some sort of a "prophet" to a breakaway group, as seen in Razor.

[Raiders]

;148356']No no no, it has been stated specifically that the Centurions have been trying to evolve on their own and all they could manage were deeply flawed combinations of human tissue and machine, which would become known as hybrids. They proved to be useful in basestars, but since their consciousness operates on a different level, at least one became some sort of a "prophet" to a breakaway group, as seen in Razor.

OK. That works too.

[Qrazy]

I think they are likely similar enough that it works the same for all the models and the five. They gave the eight models the "gift of resurrection" so it must be assumed, and is certainly implied, that their biological bodies are capable of performing the same feats required in resurrection.

Ok but what I'm getting at is if they could create new bodies for themselves (the five), then why couldn't they create similar bodies for the other seven (bodies that could reproduce better, immune to the sickness, etc).


I don't remember what supposedly happened to their original ship, if anything.

Well it seems relevant to me because then they'd have another resurrection hub out there.


Yes, they were the original cycle of robotic "centurions" rising up and destroying their makers all the way on earth 2,000 years before the present day of the series. Their trip to the other colonies was to prevent it from happening, which is why when they arrived they brokered the deal with the centurions to give them biological, humanoid models if they stopped the war. Of course, this plan fell through when Cavil rose up, boxed the five and with the other models re-ignited the war against humanity.

Well not the original per se because supposedly Kobal was before that. It's interestingly incongruous that on 'earth' it was cylons versus robots of their own creation, not humans versus cylon. But what I was saying is that we saw Earth getting nuked by presumably the cylon Jr's. I want to know how/why/where the Cylon Jr's went. The final five survived, where did their enemy go? Did the final five retaliate somehow and wipe them out or? This was glossed over.


I agree that the virus resistance seems a little off, but it was never a huge plot point. As for the rest, seems obvious that the seven models have the necessary parts to perform resurrection even if their biological construction is a little different from the five.

Yes they can both resurrect but my concern is why have they been downgraded, can't reproduce, etc. The suggestion it seems to me is that the final five were imperfect creators but this seems unreasonable to me since they can recreate new bodies for themselves.


God. :P

*tears hair out*

[Qrazy]

Actually, for the hybrids, I remember in Razor, Adama saw the original, older hybrid being created. I think they were a quasi-humanoid created by the five that were not to be among the main models but were there to communicate directly to the ship and essentially drive the basestars.

If you think about it, the cylon models control the ship via the red stuff that is linked straight to the hybrids. Makes sense that the receiving end would need to be humanoid enough to perceive the messages being relayed.

Their connection to the ship makes sense but how they fit into the political spectrum doesn't make sense to me. They seem to have no political voice per se but are revered and treated as oracles at the same time. Also that whole transition of Sam from regular cylon to hybrid was absurd... 'we didn't know he could do that'... ugh.

Also, as we spoke about a while back the centurions from the first war, how they were led then and how they're essentially the lowest on the pecking order now. There's nothing wrong with this but I feel it should have been explored more... not just in terms of Baltar talking to them about having more of a say in things but also explored in a historical sense, as to how the final five and the skinjobs amassed all the power. Hopefully The Plan addresses this although I can't say at this point I'm particularly interested in seeing anymore Battlestar.

[[ETM]]

Their connection to the ship makes sense but how they fit into the political spectrum doesn't make sense to me. They seem to have no political voice per se but are revered and treated as oracles at the same time. Also that whole transition of Sam from regular cylon to hybrid was absurd... 'we didn't know he could do that'... ugh.

If the show was more concerned with the SciFi intricacies, this was something that would have been explored. I feel that the first few seasons were heavily reliant on Cylons being this huge mystery and this was perfect for what they were trying to do with the humans. It's just that when it came to getting to know their side, the show started to develop serious faults in the narrative and pacing problems. I wish it had a more certain future for the last two seasons, and that it got more time than four seasons total, just for fleshing out the enemy. TV movies are fine and great, but it should have been allowed to be within the show. As for the hybrids, as I've stated above, they seem to take the Cylon "projection" capability above "normal", possibly because they are directly tied to all of their ships' systems, like dradis and FTL. I'm thinking that on some level they connect to the higher consciousness that is driving the events, "god", or whatever you want to call it. I dug the Anders transformation because it made sense in that regard - his brain was altered by the injury, and somehow when was connected to the machine, he tapped into the same mental potential only hybrids can and essentially became like one.


Hopefully The Plan addresses this although I can't say at this point I'm particularly interested in seeing anymore Battlestar.

Well, me neither, but for the opposite reasons - the show was obviously never intended for such scrutiny, even though on most levels the mythology holds up or can be filled in satisfyingly well. I feel that digging into backgrounds AFTER it ended in such a way is not going to make things better. Right now, I'm content having these memories of great times had watching it and it should be enough.

[Qrazy]

;148363']If the show was more concerned with the SciFi intricacies, this was something that would have been explored. I feel that the first few seasons were heavily reliant on Cylons being this huge mystery and this was perfect for what they were trying to do with the humans. It's just that when it came to getting to know their side, the show started to develop serious faults in the narrative and pacing problems. I wish it had a more certain future for the last two seasons, and that it got more time than four seasons total, just for fleshing out the enemy.

I agree completely. But once the can of worms was open (i.e. exploring the cylon side of things) these are issues fundamental to the show's universe and which imo should have been addressed.

Furthermore delving deeper into the history of the first war could have remained from the human perspective and didn't have to be flashback either. It could have been delivered in the form of Quint/Gandalf-esque monologues from Odama and co.


;148363']TV movies are fine and great, but it should have been allowed to be within the show. As for the hybrids, as I've stated above, they seem to take the Cylon "projection" capability above "normal", possibly because they are directly tied to all of their ships' systems, like dradis and FTL. I'm thinking that on some level they connect to the higher consciousness that is driving the events, "god", or whatever you want to call it. I dug the Anders transformation because it made sense in that regard - his brain was altered by the injury, and somehow when was connected to the machine, he tapped into the same mental potential only hybrids can and essentially became like one.


Getting shot in the head acting as a mind enhancing procedure does not make much sense to me. Damage to the brain reduces functionality, it does not increase it. I realize these are cylons and not humans but they're supposedly working within the confines of organic material.

[Raiders]

Their connection to the ship makes sense but how they fit into the political spectrum doesn't make sense to me. They seem to have no political voice per se but are revered and treated as oracles at the same time. Also that whole transition of Sam from regular cylon to hybrid was absurd... 'we didn't know he could do that'... ugh.

They're really only revered by Leoben, who was by far the most religious/mythic-minded character on the show. Cavil mocks them and the others more or less find their ramblings incoherent.

The Sam thing was rather strange, but if only half-a-humanoid can do it, surely Sam's powers would be greater. Not that much of a stretch, particular for a sci-fi show.


Also, as we spoke about a while back the centurions from the first war, how they were led then and how they're essentially the lowest on the pecking order now. There's nothing wrong with this but I feel it should have been explored more... not just in terms of Baltar talking to them about having more of a say in things but also explored in a historical sense, as to how the final five and the skinjobs amassed all the power.

The centurions are rather simplistic, and it seems rather obvious that the higher intelligent, emotional and more cunning "skinjobs" were able to become the leaders of the race, so to speak. The series mentions their deliberate programming of the centurions, which are the "new model" centurions which have the sleeker design.

[[ETM]]

Getting shot in the head acting as a mind enhancing procedure does not make much sense to me. Damage to the brain reduces functionality, it does not increase it. I realize these are cylons and not humans but they're supposedly working within the confines of organic material.

Well, think Rain Man - the hybrids' brain seems to function differently, as they are not capable of direct communication or rational thought. But as I said, they have access to something more, which is interpreted as "divine word", as Raiders said, by some Cylons. Anders fell into a quasi catatonic state as a result of injury, but the machine interface allowed him to access some part of his Cylon biology which allowed him to reach out and communicate to the extent hybrids do, and also control complex systems as they do. This has always seemed rational to me, within the reality of the show.

[Qrazy]

;148372']Well, think Rain Man - the hybrids' brain seems to function differently, as they are not capable of direct communication or rational thought. But as I said, they have access to something more, which is interpreted as "divine word", as Raiders said, by some Cylons. Anders fell into a quasi catatonic state as a result of injury, but the machine interface allowed him to access some part of his Cylon biology which allowed him to reach out and communicate to the extent hybrids do, and also control complex systems as they do. This has always seemed rational to me, within the reality of the show.

I"m a psychology major and have studied brain function/localization in depth. Believe me getting shot in the head isn't going to turn you into Rain Man. Anyway even if it did for cylons (the final five model), I don't know how they can create resurrection (i.e. being able to grow new bodies for yourself and transfer your consciousness into them) and yet know so little about their minds/bodies that one of them could suddenly exhibit hybrid powers and all they have to say is... oh didn't know he could do that.

[Raiders]

Qrazy, do you sit around and nitpick everything in such a joyless manner, or just this show? You seem so concerned about everything fitting in a 2 + 2 = 4 manner that nothing but the most ascetic, reality-based dramas seem as though they could pass your scrutiny. I have no idea why you would watch an ambitious, character-based science-fiction series since I feel certain there is no way they could have ever satisfied you. It seems you wanted about 10 straight "infodump" episodes so that we could sit and get nothing but minutae about how everything in this universe works, every cog in its place. Meanwhile, all the characters become is window dressing to the mythology and "science" and I quickly become about as interested as I would be in a root canal.

[Qrazy]

Qrazy, do you sit around and nitpick everything in such a joyless manner, or just this show? You seem so concerned about everything fitting in a 2 + 2 = 4 manner that nothing but the most ascetic, reality-based dramas seem as though they could pass your scrutiny. I have no idea why you would watch an ambitious, character-based science-fiction series since I feel certain there is no way they could have ever satisfied you. It seems you wanted about 10 straight "infodump" episodes so that we could sit and get nothing but minutae about how everything in this universe works, every cog in its place. Meanwhile, all the characters become is window dressing to the mythology and "science" and I quickly become about as interested as I would be in a root canal.

A couple of the historical issues I've brought up are minor things that I would have liked to be fleshed out but most of the other things I've mentioned aren't minutiae at all. Sam suddenly inheriting hybrid powers is not a minor issue, it's a major plot point. I don't particularly want them to explain it since there is no adequate explanation. I just wish they hadn't gone there in the first place. But really I wouldn't care about most of these things if I didn't feel the show had wasted my time in the last two seasons to finally end in such a bullshit manner. I'm glad you enjoyed it more than I did (in the sense that you experienced enjoyment from it, not because I think it's worthy), but I didn't. And I invested as much time, thought and energy into the show as you or anyone else back when I thought it was going somewhere and now that it's over and I don't feel that it did it's perfectly reasonable for me to criticize the show both in the broad and in the close strokes.

Also no I don't want or need any infodump episodes, those are the worst kind. What I would have liked is for the things I've brought up to have been interspersed throughout the series and for there to be greater continuity and attention to world building detail throughout (which don't require any infodumps but instead forward thinking on the writers part). There was a ton of melodramatic/romance filler in the series that could have been excised to make room for some of the things I've brought up.

Bear in mind that I thought it was a great show for the first 2 and a half seasons. It's true I'm only voicing criticisms at this stage but I don't only have negative thoughts about the show. I've mentioned what I loved a few times... world building, politics, strategic battles, etc.

But yeah you're right in that in the past few posts I've become increasingly pedantic so I'll just let things lie for awhile.

[[ETM]]

I"m a psychology major and have studied brain function/localization in depth. Believe me getting shot in the head isn't going to turn you into Rain Man.

Of course it isn't, I wasn't being literal. I was comparing his state to autism as in - he can't fully participate in the world as we perceive it anymore, yet he exhibits abilities "unlocked" by such a state.


Anyway even if it did for cylons (the final five model), I don't know how they can create resurrection (i.e. being able to grow new bodies for yourself and transfer your consciousness into them) and yet know so little about their minds/bodies that one of them could suddenly exhibit hybrid powers and all they have to say is... oh didn't know he could do that.

1) they can interface with complex computer systems, and control them, with their whole body, through the liquid based terminals. This includes high speed data transfer from their memory and who knows what else. The Five have sufficiently different biology than the seven models they created themselves to allow for unexpected results, especially since none of them ever had brain injury.

2) they developed resurrection together, but no single one knows every detail. Also, save for Ellen, they can't consciously access any of their memories on their subject. Anders did, but he can't really talk about it in his state. Keep in mind that the hybrids weren't designed or built by the seven models in the first place, so those who put Anders in the contraption hoping for his brain to "reboot" and work things out on its own definitely didn't know he could do that.

So yeah, the explanations given on screen should be enough for sufficient suspension of disbelief.

[Qrazy]

;148405']Of course it isn't, I wasn't being literal. I was comparing his state to autism as in - he can't fully participate in the world as we perceive it anymore, yet he exhibits abilities "unlocked" by such a state.

1) they can interface with complex computer systems, and control them, with their whole body, through the liquid based terminals. This includes high speed data transfer from their memory and who knows what else. The Five have sufficiently different biology than the seven models they created themselves to allow for unexpected results, especially since none of them ever had brain injury.

2) they developed resurrection together, but no single one knows every detail. Also, save for Ellen, they can't consciously access any of their memories on their subject. Anders did, but he can't really talk about it in his state. Keep in mind that the hybrids weren't designed or built by the seven models in the first place, so those who put Anders in the contraption hoping for his brain to "reboot" and work things out on its own definitely didn't know he could do that.

So yeah, the explanations given on screen should be enough for sufficient suspension of disbelief.

Meh, I could keep arguing the point but Raiders is right that this particular discussion is becoming too pedantic. I'll just agree that we could suspend disbelief but that I think there's other less tenuous ways they could have taken the story in order to a) communicate the history of the final five b) deal with the guns on the cylon colony and c) drive the ships into the sun (if they really needed to do that... I like some of the fan suggestions of them keeping their tech and becoming the ancient city of Atlantis)... since I don't think the show was ever anti-tech (anti AI for a while certainly) and the message should be to use tech more responsibly, not eschew it entirely.

Aside from the problems I've already mentioned with Sam's hybrid qualities, what I don't like it is it has that whole 'character in a coma, some new technology/dangerous technique helps bring him out (in this case only partially)' is another staple soap-opera device for generating drama. And all of the soap opera dramatic plotlines that occur repeatedly throughout the show are what bother me most about it.

Actually you know what would have been awesome in order to deal with point b? You know how they set up with Boomer that FTL space dislocation creates a shockwave around it? They could have moved all of the crew of Galactica to one half of the ship and then literally jumped it halfway into the colony (assuming/hoping that Hera was in the middle or so)... that would be the ultimate suicide run.

[[ETM]]

Actually you know what would have been awesome in order to deal with point b? You know how they set up with Boomer that FTL space dislocation creates a shockwave around it? They could have moved all of the crew of Galactica to one half of the ship and then literally jumped it halfway into the colony (assuming/hoping that Hera was in the middle or so)... that would be the ultimate suicide run.

Of course, if there wasn't the small issue of rescuing the child. But yeah, if they were going to go down in flames, it would have worked like that.

Also, you may not be aware, but Michael Trucco was in a car accident, and he injured his neck. He was lucky and fully recovered, but his "hybrid" scenes were shot right after that... I wonder if that inspired them. He was mobile and all at the time, but his scars were real. Doctors say it was a mirracle he escaped from that, it's the same type of injury Reeve suffered.

[Qrazy]

;148417']Of course, if there wasn't the small issue of rescuing the child. But yeah, if they were going to go down in flames, it would have worked like that.

Also, you may not be aware, but Michael Trucco was in a car accident, and he injured his neck. He was lucky and fully recovered, but his "hybrid" scenes were shot right after that... I wonder if that inspired them. He was mobile and all at the time, but his scars were real. Doctors say it was a mirracle he escaped from that, it's the same type of injury Reeve suffered.

No, didn't know that, sounds like it probably did inspire them.

In terms of rescuing Hera they were assuming she was being kept in a certain area of the base. The rescue mission sort of hinged on her being there (although it turned out Boomer gave her to them anyway). I'm not suggesting they jump into the middle of the colony but they could jump onto the lip where all the guns were stationed. Even if Hera wasn't in that room in the middle of the colony she definitely wouldn't have been on the frontlines. Since they end up ramming the colony anyway I don't see why not. Alternatively they could jump Galactica while it's moving forward so that it jumps in right in front of the guns and the shockwave from it's displacement rips open the very front guns and wall making it easier for it to smash into the colony.

[[ETM]]

In terms of rescuing Hera they were assuming she was being kept in a certain area of the base. The rescue mission sort of hinged on her being there (although it turned out Boomer gave her to them anyway). I'm not suggesting they jump into the middle of the colony but they could jump onto the lip where all the guns were stationed. Even if Hera wasn't in that room in the middle of the colony she definitely wouldn't have been on the frontlines. Since they end up ramming the colony anyway I don't see why not. Alternatively they could jump Galactica while it's moving forward so that it jumps in right in front of the guns and the shockwave from it's displacement rips open the very front guns and wall making it easier for it to smash into the colony.

What I liked about the explanations for FTL in the show is that it is definitely not easy to calculate every variable into a jump, and if one is trying to do something insanely precise, more often than not it would lead to disaster. Like when several Raptors on the Kobol rescue mission jumped straight inside a mountain. Doing such a surgical jump with the Bucket, especiallly without Gaeta who arguably had the most experience in the area, would have been a disaster. From what I gather, in exposition laid out in Daybreak 1 itself, it was stated that the Colony is on a very tight orbit around the naked singularity, and that the docking space was deliberately designed as the only safe place to jump in and out of the area, and anything else would destabilize the whole thing and most likely kill you straight away.

(I'm enjoying discussing some of these aspects in detail, because it feels good to jog the memory and think some of this through. I appreciate the constructive criticism Qrazy. Most of the people I discussed this with and who didn't enjoy the ending of the series are frustratingly negative on recognizing any merit in the show as a whole now that it is over, which is just insulting. The criticisms are mostly the same as yours - soap opera melodramatics and unplugged holes in the overall story, which is fair. But taking it that far is not, IMO).

EDIT: BTW, it looks like all the Cylon agents we've seen in the show sill appear in The Plan, most importantly Shelley Godfrey, the Six who accused Baltar of treason in S1 and disappeared. She appears in one of the promos. Her (dis)appearance has always nagged me a bit.

[Qrazy]

;148427']What I liked about the explanations for FTL in the show is that it is definitely not easy to calculate every variable into a jump, and if one is trying to do something insanely precise, more often than not it would lead to disaster. Like when several Raptors on the Kobol rescue mission jumped straight inside a mountain. Doing such a surgical jump with the Bucket, especiallly without Gaeta who arguably had the most experience in the area, would have been a disaster. From what I gather, in exposition laid out in Daybreak 1 itself, it was stated that the Colony is on a very tight orbit around the naked singularity, and that the docking space was deliberately designed as the only safe place to jump in and out of the area, and anything else would destabilize the whole thing and most likely kill you straight away.

Yeah it's true it isn't precise, but I think that's what would make it such an insane and brilliant strategy and something that Cavil wouldn't predict. It would have been very risky but now that you mention that about Gaeta imagine if they'd given the task of calculating the jump to Baltar. Then he would have had something to actually do instead of just firing a gun. He's supposed to be a brilliant scientist, you'd think they would have used him in a more worthwhile capacity. Plus Gaeta has that line about thinking he was good at science until he met Baltar so it would tie into that as well. All of this would have made Baltar's destiny a bit more significant and then maybe I would have been bothered slightly less by the God stuff. I was a bit disappointed at how the show just abandoned Baltar's scientific brilliance once he started with the religious stuff.

The way things did pan out with all the guns bearing down on them and tearing into Galactica, I don't know it just seemed a bit much to me. I found it hard to believe the ship could survive such an onslaught even for a brief period of time (since this isn't Star Trek and they don't have shields afterall).


;148427'](I'm enjoying discussing some of these aspects in detail, because it feels good to jog the memory and think some of this through. I appreciate the constructive criticism Qrazy. Most of the people I discussed this with and who didn't enjoy the ending of the series are frustratingly negative on recognizing any merit in the show as a whole now that it is over, which is just insulting. The criticisms are mostly the same as yours - soap opera melodramatics and unplugged holes in the overall story, which is fair. But taking it that far is not, IMO).

Yeah, agreed. I'm sure if I went back and rewatched episodes such as Scar or the New Caprica rescue I'd still love them to bits.

[[ETM]]

All of this would have made Baltar's destiny a bit more significant and then maybe I would have been bothered slightly less by the God stuff. I was a bit disappointed at how the show just abandoned Baltar's scientific brilliance once he started with the religious stuff.

Well, to be fair, he compromised himself with the politics and the New Caprica fiasco. They did rely on him heavily, it seems, upon arriving at the original Earth.


The way things did pan out with all the guns bearing down on them and tearing into Galactica, I don't know it just seemed a bit much to me. I found it hard to believe the ship could survive such an onslaught even for a brief period of time (since this isn't Star Trek and they don't have shields afterall).

Oh, I'm with you - the reliance on Galactica's sturdiness has been inconsistent, although it has to be said that anything but a direct nuclear hit would theoretically be just scratching its surface. The Cylon onslaught was not effective enough because of the point blank range, too.


I'm sure if I went back and rewatched episodes such as Scar or the New Caprica rescue I'd still love them to bits.

Oh, those are the easy favorites, but it's much more for me. It's the whole Pegasus arc, and the miniseries itself holds several brilliant sequences... I wonder how people forget some of the smaller moments of brilliance. Kara and Helo at her place on Caprica... lots of really well written and executed scenes like that. It's something that I'll gladly revisit more than once. Apollo's "Death Star run" on the Cylon refinery is a guilty pleasure of mine, I pop that in for a pure SFX fix often.

[Qrazy]

;148438']Well, to be fair, he compromised himself with the politics and the New Caprica fiasco. They did rely on him heavily, it seems, upon arriving at the original Earth.

Yeah he was compromised in terms of politics but not in terms of science. They did use him on Earth but that was almost a dozen episodes ago. It just seems a bit silly to me to put a brilliant mind on the front lines.


;148438']Oh, I'm with you - the reliance on Galacta's sturdiness has been inconsistent, although it has to be said that anything but a direct nuclear hit would theoretically be just scratching its surface. The Cylon onslaught was not effective enough because of the point blank range, too.

On a related side note when the cylons entered the ship that time how did they get in? Didn't they cut their way in?


;148438']Oh, those are the easy favorites, but it's much more for me. It's the whole Pegasus arc, and the miniseries itself holds several brilliant sequences... I wonder how people forget some of the smaller moments of brilliance. Kara and Helo at her place on Caprica... lots of really well written and executed scenes like that. It's something that I'll gladly revisit more than once. Apollo's "Death Star run" on the Cylon refinery is a guilty pleasure of mine, I pop that in for a pure SFX fix often.

Well yeah those moments are good too, I just mentioned the first two that sprung to mind. Kara scoping the resurrection hub was pretty sweet as well. The pegasus arc was indeed great. Even the coup arc this season was great. Although I probably wouldn't like Kara and Helo on New Caprica in retrospect given that I didn't like how the series concluded. All of the destiny stuff is a bit tainted for me now, but everything outside of that is still gold.

[[ETM]]

On a related side note when the cylons entered the ship that time how did they get in? Didn't they cut their way in?

I just assumed the way they did before - Heavy Raider into the hangar bay, shoot the rest of the way in - another awesome moment there, Cavil just walking straight in, surrounded by Centurions was great. Plus, they could have gotten in the same way the Colonials got out. Apollo and his team went in from that forward airlock, but the "red stripe" Centurions came from other directions, mainly because they don't breathe. It would mean that the Cylons boarding had lots of entry spots.

[Qrazy]

;148460']I just assumed the way they did before - Heavy Raider into the hangar bay, shoot the rest of the way in - another awesome moment there, Cavil just walking straight in, surrounded by Centurions was great. Plus, they could have gotten in the same way the Colonials got out. Apollo and his team went in from that forward airlock, but the "red stripe" Centurions came from other directions, mainly because they don't breathe. It would mean that the Cylons boarding had lots of entry spots.

Right no I meant from the earlier episodes seasons back, if they entered through the hangar or if they cut their way in.

[[ETM]]

Right no I meant from the earlier episodes seasons back, if they entered through the hangar or if they cut their way in.

Oh right - yeah, I think they breached the hangar deck, since the flight pods were open at the time.

[Mara]

:) @ The Onion:

Obama Depressed, Distant Since 'Battlestar Galactica' Series Finale. (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/obama_depressed_distant_since? utm_source=a-section)

[number8]

Complete series box set this July.

DVD - $280, Bluray $350.

[Mara]

Complete series box set this July.

DVD - $280, Bluray $350.

That's what I was waiting for.

:cool:

[Mara]

My sister can be obnoxiously sarcastic sometimes. Like, when I bought the entire series of The West Wing and I was showing her the awesome packaging, she said, "Oh, wow, it's just like you're the President."

I don't think I'm going to let her borrow BSG. Retribution!

[Mysterious Dude]

Was anyone keeping track of the number of times Adama broke down and cried like a baby? I counted three:

1. He finds out Tigh is a cylon.
2. While trying to paint a wall, he realizes Galactica can't be repaired.
3. Roslin dies.

[[ETM]]

Only one of those was shameful indulgence on Olmos' part. Can't say I blame him, either.

[number8]

;155147']Only one of those was shameful indulgence on Olmos' part. Can't say I blame him, either.

2, right? Cause he directed that episode himself?

[[ETM]]

2, right? Cause he directed that episode himself?

Bingo.

[D_Davis]

Finished last night - loved it.

It was a little didactic with that final twist, but I liked that it had a social message; this is what makes this real SF, as opposed to most of the stuff that passes for SF on television. Also, like Return of the King, the final episode had a few too many endings, but I did enjoy it all.

I love the religious aspect of the show, and I'm glad they didn't offer up any easy answers to this side of the narrative. They left things a bit mysterious - just like real life.

The finally was action packed, cerebral, and emotional: it had it all.

The show's greatest strength is its humanity, and the final few episodes were fantastic for this.

More to come later, but I won't participate any any defending or nit picking.

:)

[D_Davis]

The first in a series of random thoughts:

I was totally surprised at how they developed Sam Anders. My wife and I both thought he was going to die pretty early; that he would be one of those characters about which we would say "Too bad he died, he was cool." But he didn't die, and for a long time I wasn't sure why he was still alive. He didn't seem to do much, but they never let him fade away into the background. And then they started using him more, and well, he actually ended up being one of the most important characters in the show.

BSG excels at this kind of thing.

The same can be said for Hilo. I thought for sure that he was just being used as an easy sympathy card in the mini-series. I thought he was a slightly glorified red-shirt, as if we were supposed to care that he chose to give up his spot for Baltar. But then they returned to him, and the show kept coming back to him, developing his character more, and more. He was CAG, he was the XO, he was a bridge between human and cylon relations, and he was an awesome dude.

Of course my favorite character is Saul. I liked that he became more human after he found out he was a cylon.


Yes, there were some plot holes, but I was engaged and entertained enough on a macro level that the problems on the micro level never bothered me.

I sympathize with you, Qrazy - your's sounds like my reaction to Pan's Labyrinth. Although, I have to ask: why did you even watch the whole show? It seems like you had a lot of trouble with it, and 4 seasons is quite the investment. While I had problems with Del Toro's film, and nit picked it to death, it was only a 2-hour investment - not a 40+ hour epic. I would not have finished the series if I had as many problems with it as you did.



The show also reminded me of Macross quite a bit; wouldn't be surprised to learn of its influence. Especially with how important the music ended up being.

[[ETM]]

Qrazy is just being Qrazy. I totally get his viewpoint, and really appreciate him not being dismissive about not liking things, as I found too many are.

And yes, Macross, finally! I grew up loving the basic premise of Macross, and BSG really resonated on that level.:pritch:

[D_Davis]

;156880']
And yes, Macross, finally! I grew up loving the basic premise of Macross, and BSG really resonated on that level.:pritch:

I thought of Macross from the first moment during the very first epic space battle when all those space-missiles were launched. Macross had to be an inspiration on an aesthetic level at least.

And the Cylon colony ship totally looked like the Zentradi base ship in Macross: Do You Remember Love?

[D_Davis]

Before we started the second part of S4, I was a little confused. I thought the new episodes were part of S5, and since they weren't out on DVD yet, I did a Google Search for an episode guide so I could dl the correct ones. The first link I clicked on led me to a site with a giant ass picture of Ellen and the words "THE FINAL CYLON REVEALED" below.

:|

Luckily S4.5 revealed this quite early, so I didn't have to pretend I didn't know for long.

[D_Davis]

man i was so annoyed with that boxing epsiode. so annoyed.


Oh man, that boxing episode was... I can't even think of a word exquisite enough to describe it. Not even in French.


;28856']Interesting how people either hate its guts or are in love with the boxing episode.

I love the boxing episode. It was well executed by all accounts.

One of my favorites.

[[ETM]]

Before we started the second part of S4, I was a little confused. I thought the new episodes were part of S5, and since they weren't out on DVD yet, I did a Google Search for an episode guide so I could dl the correct ones. The first link I clicked on led me to a site with a giant ass picture of Ellen and the words "THE FINAL CYLON REVEALED" below.

:|

Luckily S4.5 revealed this quite early, so I didn't have to pretend I didn't know for long.

That sucks, but Moore decided to get it out of the way quickly, and rightfully so. I was always annoyed by how much people invested into the Final Five, with the theories, which all turned out to be worthless within the context of what was, you know, the actual plot. I mean, lots of people guessed the fifth, but it ultimately didn't amount to much.

[D_Davis]

;156974']That sucks, but Moore decided to get it out of the way quickly, and rightfully so. I was always annoyed by how much people invested into the Final Five, with the theories, which all turned out to be worthless within the context of what was, you know, the actual plot. I mean, lots of people guessed the fifth, but it ultimately didn't amount to much.

Totally.

The reveal of the 4 was awesome. Those last two episodes of S4.0 were absolutely perfect. Some of the best space-opera I've ever experienced.

[Qrazy]

The first in a series of random thoughts:

I was totally surprised at how they developed Sam Anders. My wife and I both thought he was going to die pretty early; that he would be one of those characters about which we would say "Too bad he died, he was cool." But he didn't die, and for a long time I wasn't sure why he was still alive. He didn't seem to do much, but they never let him fade away into the background. And then they started using him more, and well, he actually ended up being one of the most important characters in the show.

BSG excels at this kind of thing.

The same can be said for Hilo. I thought for sure that he was just being used as an easy sympathy card in the mini-series. I thought he was a slightly glorified red-shirt, as if we were supposed to care that he chose to give up his spot for Baltar. But then they returned to him, and the show kept coming back to him, developing his character more, and more. He was CAG, he was the XO, he was a bridge between human and cylon relations, and he was an awesome dude.

Of course my favorite character is Saul. I liked that he became more human after he found out he was a cylon.


Yes, there were some plot holes, but I was engaged and entertained enough on a macro level that the problems on the micro level never bothered me.

I sympathize with you, Qrazy - your's sounds like my reaction to Pan's Labyrinth. Although, I have to ask: why did you even watch the whole show? It seems like you had a lot of trouble with it, and 4 seasons is quite the investment. While I had problems with Del Toro's film, and nit picked it to death, it was only a 2-hour investment - not a 40+ hour epic. I would not have finished the series if I had as many problems with it as you did.



The show also reminded me of Macross quite a bit; wouldn't be surprised to learn of its influence. Especially with how important the music ended up being.

Well my problems with the show up through Season 3 were negligible. I had many problems with it even then a) melodrama b) plot choices etc but the good far outweighed the bad. It was only from like halfway through Season 3 and onward that I started liking the show much less. That being said it's still by far the best sci fi I've seen on television. Star Trek is decent I suppose but it's episodic structure often left much to be desired for me. Even in the last season I thought there was quite a bit to like and I loved the coup episodes.

[Sycophant]

Just once on this show, I'd like to hear someone say "fuck."

Okay, you guys. I'm through episode 14 of BSG because my plans got cancelled today and this show is fucking crack. I'm not reading beyond this post. But oh my God, Antoine, very yes to this right here. You can see it behind the actor's teeth sometimes. "Frak" just does not fucking cut it.

I mean, it's obviously not possible being on network TV, but the workarounds they use sometimes feels like they made Rhett Butler say, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a flipnarnin' badoinkydoink."

[Raiders]

"Frak" is about 100x cooler of a word than "fuck."

[number8]

I am known to use "frak" in daily conversations.

[number8]

I also like how some other shows have picked up on its usage, as well.

I know Whedon is a big BSG fan and has used it a few times in his Buffy comics. Then this week's Dollhouse had a character saying "frakked up."

IT'S TAKING OVER, PEOPLE.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I just watched the pilot for the first time. Never watched the series until now.

I enjoyed it. A lot of mystery and buildup, and the idea of tension between the two main leaders should keep things interesting. I thought the amount of sex in the first half was silly - like they were trying to compensate for it being viewed as a "nerd" show. But once the nukes fell, I was involved.

Olmos was effective: subdued but assertive.

[[ETM]]

For the love of Gods, DAMU, stay out of this place, and the internet in general, for that matter. Do not spoil it (although I have no idea how that is possible), and just... get up on a mountain top or something and watch it.

[Sycophant]

Well, I finished you, BSG, in three short weeks. Hope you're happy, BSG.

It's gonna take me a while to process all my thoughts on the finale and the show as a whole. I was with it up until Lee's decision to abandon cities and technology. The show's greatest concern seemed to be the nature of humanity and the integration of Cylon and human toward the end of the series suggested an optimistic and humanistic ioutlook, but that did not seem to be what was served by the show's closing movements.

It was a good show. I wish some things had been handled more expertly, and specifically I wish someone had limited seasons two and three to thirteen or fifteen episodes and we could've just canned some of that standalone nonsense like Helo's, Tyrol's, and Kat's adventures.

While I appreciate the show's attempts to grapple with religion and God and faith &c. &c., I'm dubious as to what it actually says about those things. It certainly talks a lot about them, but I don't see what utility it has.

The good news is that I liked the show's tendency toward melodrama, which was pretty much superbly acted, and I was thoroughly invested in the characters.

The two episodes involving the coup mid-season 4.5 capped off the the best run of the series (initiated with the beginning of season 4.5) since the New Caprica arc. That scene between Baltar and Gaeta was one of the show's high points. Season 4, on the whole, was a pretty solid season.

Edward James Olmos can make me cry just by hugging people all day.

Also, what the hell with Gaius getting away with saying "fuck" in S4 E19? I swear he said it once. "A fucking hole in my head." I listened to it a couple times, it sure as hell sounds like it. Weird!

While I had problems with the ultimate ending, it was almost worth it to hear Gaius say he knew something about farming. Goddamn, I'm gonna miss watching James Callis as Baltar.

Anyway, I needed that goofy ass robot montage like I needed a fucking hole in my head.

[Sycophant]

However, I did read some comments online from people saying they were atheists and the final season made them agnostics.
What.

[Sycophant]

At any rate:

Battlestar Galactica finale <<< The Sopranos finale.

[number8]

What.

Mm? Oh. As in, the show got them to start considering the possibility of a greater power existing.

[Sycophant]

Mm? Oh. As in, the show got them to start considering the possibility of a greater power existing.

I caught the meaning. I'm baffled that this, of all things, should get some people to reconsider that there might be some sort of goddy type thing out there in the cosmos. Gonna go ahead and guess they weren't very deeply dug in atheists. Whatever works, though.

[[ETM]]

Yeah, you liked it alright. :) Pretty good break-up in the end, only I love it too much after all is said and done to even consider being frustrated by the shortcomings. It just wouldn't be fair.

Oh, and - I was wondering if my avatar and coordinates would spoil you. It's good that they didn't.

[Sycophant]

;158881']Oh, and - I was wondering if my avatar and coordinates would spoil you. It's good that they didn't.

Wasn't recognizably Jamie Bamber or FTL coordinates.

[Raiders]

I think people are taking the final montage a little too seriously. Seemed more to me like a partially tongue-in-cheek bit of irreverence from the writers more than a serious, technology-is-bad message. I was laughing throughout that bit and suspect that was the intended reaction.

[Sycophant]

That could well be so. Still, the technophobia was supported by everything in the second half, apart from the robots. And even still, it just didn't feel like a worthy final moment to the 60 hours of show that preceded it.

The more I think about it, the really strong points of this show were really the acting and the direction. Strange for television, which is typically a writer's medium.

[Raiders]

That could well be so. Still, the technophobia was supported by everything in the second half, apart from the robots.

Well, after their ordeal, I think Galactica's technophobia makes sense. I think the final bit was, as I said, a bit of irreverent doomsdaying that I think they fully expected to be polarizing. I found it rather hilarious.



The more I think about it, the really strong points of this show were really the acting and the direction. Strange for television, which is typically a writer's medium.

And the music. Definitely the music.

As for the writing, I think the difference is that unlike a lot of shows, they legitimately took a lot of chances here. They moved in directions they felt compelled to without really being all that concerned with ratings or if it coddled the audience. I wouldn't argue with someone who claims they failed as often as they worked, though I would disagree, but I don't think anyone can claim this show played it safe.

[Sycophant]

Yes, the music as well. Certainly.

To the writers' credit, though I think a lot of stuff didn't always work, they at least made a lot of ballsy choices, something rare in television. It was usually when they made those choices that the show really sang, since it moved with confidence. It was usually at its best when it moved confidently, like the opening and ending of season 3.

And an argument could be made for the logic of Galactica's technophobia. But I don't think the show made that argument.

[D_Davis]

They set up the technophobia in the very first episode when they discuss how the BSG is not networked. I thought this was clearly some allegory about how reliant we are on networks now, and how easily they can come crashing down.

Another thing about the writing - they wrote the show with a very clear structure of the beginning, middle, and end. I am so glad the show ended when it did. They had a story to tell, and they told it.

[Qrazy]

They set up the technophobia in the very first episode when they discuss how the BSG is not networked. I thought this was clearly some allegory about how reliant we are on networks now, and how easily they can come crashing down.

Another thing about the writing - they wrote the show with a very clear structure of the beginning, middle, and end. I am so glad the show ended when it did. They had a story to tell, and they told it.

That's not technophobia, that's network phobia. The BSG is itself a very advanced piece of technological equipment. It's what allowed them to survive all of this time. Without technology they would never have found New Earth.

On a different note, whatever happened to Cylon occupied Caprica?

[D_Davis]

Networking is a kind of technology. It's discriminatory-technophobia. There, are you happy now Dr. Semantics?

[D_Davis]

On a different note, whatever happened to Cylon occupied Caprica?

Perhaps we'll find out in another series.

[[ETM]]

Perhaps we'll find out in another series.

Didn't they say in the finale that the humanoid Cylons abandoned the colonies when "playing house" failed?

[[ETM]]

I think people are taking the final montage a little too seriously. Seemed more to me like a partially tongue-in-cheek bit of irreverence from the writers more than a serious, technology-is-bad message. I was laughing throughout that bit and suspect that was the intended reaction.

I'm inclined to agree. As I've said before, it is not at all unlike the end sequence in the awesome Doctor Who episode "Blink", which (for the uninitiated) features "quantum locked" alien assassins which turn to stone figures, weeping angels with hands covering their faces, when they are watched. They only exist when unobserved. Well, the episode ended with a montage of various statues and humanoid figures of all kinds from all over Britain, set to an ominous musical background. It's incredibly cheesy, I :rolleyes: constantly, but in spirit of the show, that kind of cheekiness totally works. Likewise, I feel that BSG earned the right to play around like that. Moore himself said afterwards that he wishes he didn't do the cameo in the end, but I don't mind as a viewer. He earned it and I was glad to see him in the scene. It's the end of a loooong road. If a little fun on the writers' part hurts the show at that point, then...

[Sycophant]

The ending reminded me of the end of the BBC adaptation of Hitchhiker's Guide (and its other incarnations), except worse.

[[ETM]]

The ending reminded me of the end of the BBC adaptation of Hitchhiker's Guide (and its other incarnations), except worse.

Why is it so hard to, you know, pretend it ended with Adama on the hill? Many people do.

[Sycophant]

;158967']Why is it so hard to, you know, pretend it ended with Adama on the hill? Many people do.

I think I have problems with that, too.

And I'm not very good at pretending things I watched didn't happen, because they did. I'm not sure why I'd owe that to the show.

[D_Davis]

I've never placed much importance in endings, no more than any other point in the narrative. An ending is just that -- just another entry in the journey. So long as an ending doesn't completely discredit and ruin everything that came before, then it is cool with me. And if it did do this, chances are the writing in general was bad, and thus the ending probably wasn't the only problem.

[Sycophant]

An ending is a work's closing argument.

[Raiders]

I think I have problems with that, too.

Really? You mean you have problems with that moment, or you would have had problems with that moment being the last image on screen?

Anyway, I still don't truly believe the ending montage furthers any sort of overriding technophobia. If anything, it struck me as a warning, a ham-fisted and thoroughly tongue-in-cheek warning, that mankind has a sad history of overreliance on robotics (not all technology) for their survival and daily functions and that the cycle eventually can only lead to one conclusion; the same conclusion James Cameron came to 25 years ago.

Just because immediately before the crew of Galactica chose to do without any technology doesn't mean suddenly Moore and company have decided anything but living in caves is bad. I think if anything Moore is making a kind of sad statement that even though Galactica destroyed their technology, humanity has run the same course over the following 150,000 years and is on a path for the same fate. This is precisely what the two angels are discussing at the end. The future is uncertain, the past is not.

[number8]

This technophobia talk seems silly, and not at all what I think the show presented.

In fact, I think it makes the case that technology is an integral part of our lives and cannot be rid of, because we will always progress towards it.

[[ETM]]

Yeah, what they said.

Also, the destruction of technology was necessary as a plot device because, you know, we haven't found a Raptor wreck buried in Tanzania. It all sort of work out in the end, and I'm sorry if that isn't the case for everyone.

[Qrazy]

Networking is a kind of technology. It's discriminatory-technophobia. There, are you happy now Dr. Semantics?

I'd be happier if you'd replied in Russian.

[Qrazy]

I think I have problems with that, too.

And I'm not very good at pretending things I watched didn't happen, because they did. I'm not sure why I'd owe that to the show.

Yeah, I can't pretend the last few minutes of Red River and Wages of Fear didn't happen. I want to, but I can't.

[Qrazy]

I've never placed much importance in endings, no more than any other point in the narrative. An ending is just that -- just another entry in the journey. So long as an ending doesn't completely discredit and ruin everything that came before, then it is cool with me. And if it did do this, chances are the writing in general was bad, and thus the ending probably wasn't the only problem.

Speaking of endings, the nature of my cryptic comments from the other thread... I thought you'd probably like the show's ending given your own religious leanings but then I remembered how you reacted to the end of The Ninth Configuration and would have preferred they'd left those last couple minutes ambiguous (and I agree) so I thought that perhaps you might not like it after all.

[Qrazy]

;158979']Yeah, what they said.

Also, the destruction of technology was necessary as a plot device because, you know, we haven't found a Raptor wreck buried in Tanzania. It all sort of work out in the end, and I'm sorry if that isn't the case for everyone.

I prefer a fan suggested ending (if the show must end on New Earth anyway) where they form the lost civilization of Atlantis.

[[ETM]]

I prefer a fan suggested ending (if the show must end on New Earth anyway) where they form the lost civilization of Atlantis.

I agree. But Atlantis is still lost, so it was another failure of a technologically driven society and ties right into where BSG ends.

[Sycophant]

;158979']Yeah, what they said.

Also, the destruction of technology was necessary as a plot device because, you know, we haven't found a Raptor wreck buried in Tanzania. It all sort of work out in the end, and I'm sorry if that isn't the case for everyone.

That's kind of flimsy, considering that the major plot point of them integrating with the nascent human race was a decision they made at some point, and wasn't the necessary endpoint. This ending is actually rather cynical.

Maybe I'm finally really imposing my own desires on the show. But, truthfully, I wanted something a bit more optimistic than that.

Throughout the show, the Cylons became less robots-gone-rebel and more competing subgroup of persons. The integration into society was hopeful and optimistic and despite all they had lost, if felt like they gained something. The ending we got felt like a betrayal of this direction.

And while the image of Adama living apart from people with his buried love is striking, I'm not sure why it's there. Seems to me humanity, and specifically Lee, could use him.

Or, maybe, the show's writers agree with me that the humans and Cylons made a bunch of stupid and forced decisions when arriving on Earth XP. Maybe they believe God likes never-ending cycles of humans being class-A fuckups that will never make progress.

Guys, I didn't hate the finale. I didn't hate the show. I rather liked the show.

Hoping for a pseudosequel to Touched By an Angel starring James Callis and Tricia Helfer.

[Qrazy]

;158996']I agree. But Atlantis is still lost, so it was another failure of a technologically driven society and ties right into where BSG ends.

Exactly but then we don't need to go the whole jetissoning the tech route which I didn't feel the show earned.

[Sycophant]

Exactly but then we don't need to go the whole jetissoning the tech route which I didn't feel the show earned.

This is really what I think it's about. The show didn't earn this ending. It wasn't properly supported.

[[ETM]]

Exactly but then we don't need to go the whole jetissoning the tech route which I didn't feel the show earned.

It is not exclusive. I like to think that Romo Lampkin (or someone else) gathered a group of technofiles who held onto whatever knowledge was left, as well as technology, and eventually formed the city of Atlantis. The ending's vagueness works in its favor in that sense.

[Qrazy]

;159002']It is not exclusive. I like to think that Romo Lampkin (or someone else) gathered a group of technofiles who held onto whatever knowledge was left, as well as technology, and eventually formed the city of Atlantis. The ending's vagueness works in its favor in that sense.

Yes but the reason I prefer that ending is because then the show doesn't have to go the jettisoning the tech route which I do not feel it substantiates... not because I care that much about Atlantis.

[[ETM]]

Yes but the reason I prefer that ending is because then the show doesn't have to go the jettisoning the tech route which I do not feel it substantiates... not because I care that much about Atlantis.

Well, it's not the jettisoning of tech that is the real problem, it's everyone going along with it. That's why I prefer current ending + speculation to alternative ending altogether. If Brian Boitano can do it, why can't I have the cake and eat it, too?

[D_Davis]

Speaking of endings, the nature of my cryptic comments from the other thread... I thought you'd probably like the show's ending given your own religious leanings but then I remembered how you reacted to the end of The Ninth Configuration and would have preferred they'd left those last couple minutes ambiguous (and I agree) so I thought that perhaps you might not like it after all.

This is good.

I liked the underlying message behind the the show's narrative, , that it tackled the topic of religion in an open-minded way (it didn't unfairly judge either side), and I didn't mind the didactic nature of the ending. However I can't say that the ending was executed all that well. It was handled in an okay manner, but not up to par with the best the series had to offer.

I think The Ninth Configuration is a great example. I absolutely adore that film, but I absolutely hate those last few seconds; they're too didactic, too pat, and handled rather poorly. However, I can look past those last few seconds because I don't put a lot of emphases on endings. That is, I wont let one particular moment ruin the entire journey. Also, when I watch that film, I simply turn it off after Cutshaw reads the letter; it is a simple solution.

[Mara]

Veronica said "frakking" during Better Off Ted yesterday.

[number8]

Gag.


One of the many casualties of Sept. 11, 2001 was the Tom De Santo/Bryan Singer version of "Battlestar Galactica," designed as a sequel to the '70s show, which was less than three months from shooting when the attacks on America happened. Since the Cylon sneak attack was a big part of the $14 million backdoor pilot they were about to shoot, Sci-Fi got very nervous about the film, and everything fell apart.

In the time since, obviously, Ron Moore and David Eick and the entire amazing creative team who did bring "Battlestar Galactica" back to television managed to not only get a new show on the air, but they've completed their run and they're gearing up on a spinoff series, "Caprica." Despite the amount of critical love that was displayed for the show during its run, I wouldn't call Moore's "Galactica" a phenomenon. It was more like a very enthusiastic and vocal cult audience. As a result, Universal seems to feel that there's more life in the property, and that there is room for another interpretation.

That's why they're nearing a deal with Bryan Singer to produce and possibly direct a brand-new "Battlestar Galactica" feature film.
http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/2008-12-6-motion-captured/posts/bryan-singer-boards-battlestar-galactica-for-universal

[Derek]

A BSG feature without the Olmos? I choose not to recognize its existence.

[[ETM]]

The BSG direct-to-DVD movie "The Plan" has leaked online long before the release date... I'm watching it as we speak.

[Winston*]

The ending of this show was stupid. Why do we want to throw our toasted sandwich makers into the sun? I like toasted sandwiches.

[Scar]

Finished up the series yesterday, and I'll definitely be picking it up on Blu Ray soon enough.

Loved the finale, and could've done w/o the 'present day' ending.

[number8]

So, The Plan was fucking awful.

[[ETM]]

So, The Plan was fucking awful.

As a "film" - yes. I liked most of the tidbits and insights, but overall it should have been a special feature on the BluRay edition or something.

[number8]

I thought so at first, like, this doesn't work as a movie AT ALL but it's somewhat interesting as a montage of retcons.

But then I realized that I really don't like seeing the "other side" to my favorite scenes. I didn't really need to see Boomer wrestling with the decision to shoot Adama. I didn't need to know how Six escaped from Galactica after the Baltar incident. I didn't need them to give me a backstory on how Tyrol chose his attempted suicide method. I certainly didn't need the movie to replay the Starbuck-Leoben interrogation spliced in with their sex scene from two seasons later. It's just so fucking unnecessary all around.

Oh, and plus:

Plan? What fucking Plan? THEY LIED.

I liked the Simon stuff, though.

[[ETM]]

It answered several questions that I've had from early on, but, as you said, I never really needed them answered. I admire how it plugs the "holes" neatly, and how it generally makes sense... but the failure lies within the question "Who is it for?". I know it's not for the haters, because I've spoken to several and they hated the answers just the same - it was definitely the "plan" they expected. And it's not for us who enjoyed the series, because it worked just fine on its own.

And ditto on Simon - that model really needed some screen time, and it worked well.

[Sycophant]

If you got through BSG wondering about "the Plan" of the Cylons, and expect the same creative staff to be able to answer them in a follow-up TV movie, you probably saw an entirely different show than I did.

[number8]

But they did answer it in the movie. My problem is that the answer was retarded.

[[ETM]]

But they did answer it in the movie. My problem is that the answer was retarded.

Well, the answer itself is not that retarded, it explains stuff better than I ever expected, but... the dialogue is often inexplicably bad, and the one major thread that follows throughout the entire plot pretty much gets lost or muddled in all the jumps forward and back in time and space. But granted, a few moments of pure retcon were indeed very retarded,

[number8]

;214953']Well, the answer itself is not that retarded, it explains stuff better than I ever expected...

I'm curious as to what they explained for you.

The plan was: kill all humans in the holocaust. That failed, so they came up with a new plan: kill all humans in the fleet.

That's really dumb. That's not a plan, that's a base objective. It's silly that they kept saying "They have a plan" as if it's an ominous strategy, and then it's that. It's like if you make a Bond movie, and Blofeld is killing world leaders and hijacking their military computers, making them do what he wants, and throughout Bond's mission, M keeps warning Bond that Blofeld has a mysterious plan, and later when Bond defeats Blofeld, Blofeld reveals that his big plan was... to take over the world! No fucking duh.

I was much happier when they left it ominous and I assumed it had something to do with the Final Five or God or something.

[Mara]

Casey: Technically, I have a plan.

Dan: What's the plan?

Casey: It's Napoleon's plan.

Dan: Who's Napoleon?

Casey: A 19th century French emperor.

Dan: You're cracking wise with me now?

Casey: Yes.

Dan: Thanks.

Casey: He had a two-part plan.

Dan: What was it?

Casey: First we show up, then we see what happens.

Dan: That was his plan?

Casey: Yeah.

Dan: Against the Russian army?

Casey: Yeah.

Dan: First we show up, then we see what happens.

Casey: Yeah.

Dan: Almost hard to believe he lost.

No, I didn't watch The Plan. But I love Sports Night quotes.

[[ETM]]

I was much happier when they left it ominous and I assumed it had something to do with the Final Five or God or something.[/spoiler]

Um... wasn't it actually
about the Final Five? It was not all of the models' plan, sure, but the Ones cooked up the whole maniacal scheme of letting the Five live among humans, and when the Holocaust happens, they die and return to their former Cylon selves, but with the added experience of disgusting humanity... at that point, Ones expected them to embrace their children and accept the "gift" that is the destruction of humanity. So, essentially, The Plan is about how their plan was thwarted at every step by the same humanity and love they loathe so much: Simon, Boomer, Leoben, Caprica Six, all essential cogs in the scheme, and they all fail because of it. Even the One on Caprica has reached a different conclusion, yet at that same time the Galactica One kills the child, his own test, or temptation if you will, and it's not without a reason that it ends with his raving speech about ascending above the humanoid corporal form... he denies what he experiences, the miraculous salvation of the Five and them joining the fleet, all the failures, and stays defiant till the end. I don't know if I like it being about a single model and its own crazy agenda, but it is what it is.

In the end, it's a bit silly when you think about it - take out "and they have a plan" from the credits, and about 75% of complaints about the show overall disappear.

[number8]

Well, yeah. Human love taking over the skinjobs' personalities is the crux of the movie, yes, but that's what The Plan (the movie) is about, not what the plan is.

Actually, if you watch the DVD features, Olmos and Espenson and the cast all say the same thing, that the Cylons' plan has always been very simple: kill them all. That's it.

[[ETM]]

Yeah, I'm just saying "The Plan" from the title is a bit more than that. It's amazing how many people watch it and get absolutely none of it, none of the plot whatsoever.

[Raiders]

The opening part of the show was always a bit misleading though, so I think boiling down as this always being the idea of "the plan" is probably wrong. I mean, "they were created by man?" Yeah, sort of, but certainly not in the sense we thought so early on.

[number8]

Not sure what you mean. What sense did you think it meant? I always figured it means that Cylons were built by humans. Which is true, as we've seen in Caprica.

[Raiders]

Not sure what you mean. What sense did you think it meant? I always figured it means that Cylons were built by humans. Which is true, as we've seen in Caprica.

EDIT: Nevermind. I guess you're right. I was just thinking that the series made us think they "evolved" from our creations whereas they were their own creation not of our own making.

[number8]

I see. I actually never thought that. Given the humans' surprise at the skinjobs, I always assumed that man created the old-model Centurions, which were the first Cylons, and then those created the new Centurions, the skinjobs, the Raiders, etc. But essentially man created the Cylon race.

[Raiders]

I see. I actually never thought that. Given the humans' surprise at the skinjobs, I always assumed that man created the old-model Centurions, which were the first Cylons, and then those created the new Centurions, the skinjobs, the Raiders, etc. But essentially man created the Cylon race.

Well, the opening said "they evolved," but really that isn't the case. At least not in direct relation with the Centurions as developed by man.

[Scar]

My wife is posing the cylon that came with the Blu Ray set. She's come up with some, uh, interesting poses.... My favorite so far is the 'I gotta go potty!'

[Mara]

My wife is posing the cylon that came with the Blu Ray set. She's come up with some, uh, interesting poses.... My favorite so far is the 'I gotta go potty!'

I had a roommate I disliked who collected M&M figurines. When I was mad at her I'd put them in dirty poses.

[Scar]

So, The Plan was fucking awful.

Yeah, can't say I was a big fan it.

[Dead & Messed Up]

So I've successfully avoided reading any of the posts on this page. Time for a quick update on what I've watched since picking up where I left off on Battlestar.

"The Woman King" was very good, especially thanks to Bruce Davison as the doctor who may or may not be offing his patients. I like how Helo has developed into a major character, instead of that one guy on Caprica.

"A Day in the Life" was eh. That's the one where Cally and Tyrol get stuck in a decompressing room while Adama's dealing with memories of his wife. I do like seeing more Adama/Roslin flirting.

"Dirty Hands" was irritating, because I kept waiting for the episode to come to the conclusion it reached regarding unionizing/extortion/duty. But at least it came to the right conclusion.

"Maelstrom" I'm finishing up right now.

And I'm out. Have fun, you crazy kids.

[Mara]

"Dirty Hands" was irritating, because I kept waiting for the episode to come to the conclusion it reached regarding unionizing/extortion/duty. But at least it came to the right conclusion.

I love this episode.

But, then again, Tyrol is my husband. Any episode with him front and center is a good thing.

[Dead & Messed Up]

I love this episode.

But, then again, Tyrol is my husband. Any episode with him front and center is a good thing.

Yeah, I like Tyrol as a character, but it felt too invested in its issue-of-the-week, instead of the people. "What do you think, viewer, about unions?"

[Dead & Messed Up]

I just finished Season 3, which concluded with "Crossroads," which was kinda boring with all the legal stuff and the well-meaning-but-meandering speech by Lee, but there was this other thing going on with these strange sitar strings throughout the episode and I wasn't quite sure what they but why are these characters the only ones who can hear wait no that can't be no shut up stop it, show, because there's no oh my holy frakking shit.

Tigh?! TIGH?! And Tyrol?! But he's a big goddam teddy bear! NOOOO!

:lol:

Seriously, that mystery with the sitar strings was masterfully executed, and its eventual revelation as a...more familiar song is even more masterful. Were it not for the formulaic trial histrionics ("Lee can't take the stand!" "...I'll allow it."), this would be tied with "33" and "Unfinished Business" for my favorite episode.

[Raiders]

"Unfinished Business" ... my favorite episode.

Glad to see you're one of us in this regard. It's my very favorite along with "Exodus Part II."

[Dead & Messed Up]

Through "Razor" and the first four episodes of Season 4. Bummed to see Cally go, getting irritated with Baltar, love Sackhoff's perf as an increasingly agitated Starbuck, loving (as always) Roslin and Adama, and mildly interested in Lee's political interests. Tigh's tearing it up.

"The Ties that Bind" is one of the most visually striking episodes of the series. Very impressive stuff.

[Adam]

Hmmm, just finished the series this morning - I burned through the entire thing in about a month. That was a mistake because by the end I was getting impatient and way tired of it all and I was kinda half-watching episodes, especially in the fourth season. So maybe I'm more underwhelmed by the show than I would have been had I invested myself more fully in it or had a little more patience, even. But whatever. Basically I think it's obviously very addictive and watchable and yet I still agree with the haters on pretty much every point

Took itself far too seriously at times when it shouldn't have

Went overboard with its religious hokum

Felt too WB-ish

Acted wildly inconsistently

Painted itself into corners plot-wise, employing an awful shit-ton of convenience/deux ex machina to get itself out of those corners

Missed opportunities plot-wise, going directions it shouldn't have gone

That last one hurts the most, I think, because the first season or so of BG I feel had a lot of promise, despite its faults. More than anything, I chalk this up to having too much time to fill. If this show had four seasons of maybe ten episodes per, I think it could've been a crackerjack sci-fi series. But after a long enough while, the hokiness became more and more transparent and the overarching plot became more and more convoluted

For example, a HUGE early misstep, in my opinion, was having someone return to Caprica (Starbuck). There was a total sense up until that point that everything home was gone. There was no turning back and that added a palpable air of desolation to the whole thing because they really were alone. But then they started jumping back and forth all over the place and somehow there's a professional sports team surviving on Caprica and that opened the floodgates for them to meet up with the Pegasus and then they were landing on all these habitable planets and whatnot and from then on out it kind of lost something for me. I mean Baltar was a dynamite character for a while there, but he just got less and less interesting as the series progressed. At a certain point, I feel like they started making all the wrong choices on a tonal, thematic, character and story level and what a bummer that is

If I had to pinpoint when the show really turned, I'd go with sometime late in the second season. Pretty sure I was still buying BG up until the double whammy of that black market deal when Apollo shoots Bill Duke and the "Scar" episode. Those episodes stunk on ice and they totally wound up being stinky, icy portents for all the bad filler eps to come

So the first season I think got my expectations too high for the rest of the run and then it wasn't long until all the convolution and filler and overwrought melodrama caught up. Too bad. I just wish BG didn't let me down so hard. I really did enjoy maybe 50% of the series, so I guess that's something, but still, this all could've been a lot better than what it wound up being

[Raiders]

There were some missteps all along, but to say that from the latter part of the second-half of Season 2 all the way til the end was veering off course is absurd. The entire first half of Season 3 is remarkable. In fact, "Exodus Part II" and "Unfinished Business" are probably two of the finest hours of TV there is.

There is no argument the show was sometimes inconsistent, but all the way through the end, the creators captured this society and humanity on the brink of extinction with remarkable clarity and power. There are countless character moments that override some of the shakier plot mechanisms.

[Scar]

The Scar episode was awesome.

[Adam]

The Scar episode was awesome.

Why? Seriously, I was still pretty much in the bag for the show at that point and that episode still seemed incredibly lame to me


There were some missteps all along, but to say that from the latter part of the second-half of Season 2 all the way til the end was veering off course is absurd. The entire first half of Season 3 is remarkable. In fact, "Exodus Part II" and "Unfinished Business" are probably two of the finest hours of TV there is.

I wasn't a huge fan of the concentration camp stuff. Outside of Starbuck's whole deal, it all came off pretty warmed-over and cliched to me and the nods to our own, real-world problems rang completely hollow

Unfinished Business was one of the best episodes of the second half of the show's run, though, yeah


There is no argument the show was sometimes inconsistent, but all the way through the end, the creators captured this society and humanity on the brink of extinction with remarkable clarity and power.

I dunno. It had its moments in this regard, especially in the first season, but this goes back to my point about 75 episodes being far too many. By the 50th time you see the Galactica jump away a split second before it gets nuked by a base ship, are you ever really fearing for humanity's survival?

I feel like the in-house rabble rousing and community building type stuff has been handled a lot better elsewhere, too. Deadwood, Raiders. Deadwood


There are countless character moments that override some of the shakier plot mechanisms.

I agree... sort of. As the series dragged on, the best thing it had going for it was the investment you had in some of those people. For all the interest I had lost in so many of the characters, I was still majorly bummed out by Dualla's death and I think Gaeta had a great arc and there are a few others. Maybe it is just a thing where I didn't like where they took a lot of the characters I considered favorites the first season through or so? Like I say, I think Baltar for example went from being one of the most interesting tv characters I've seen to this lame, repetitive hoser and his last couple of transformations were especially half-cooked

I did really wanna love this show

[[ETM]]

I don't think I've ever even heard of someone who disliked the New Caprica arc until now.

[Raiders]

I feel like the in-house rabble rousing and community building type stuff has been handled a lot better elsewhere, too. Deadwood, Raiders. Deadwood

Oh I've seen, and loved, Deadwood. Not really going after the same idea at all. I'm not talking about "community dynamics" as much as I am the society at a large pushed to the brink of extinction. I thought the show captured the messiness, the confusion and the way personalities are tested, change and become exaggerated when back into a corner. I can't think of another show that has shown, or even really attempted to show, the dynamics that this crew ultimately obtained. The actual plot mechanisms were definitely weaker and weaker by the end, but the character stuff just got stronger and stronger I thought.

Also, no other show had, before this one, Bear McCreary. I hope he starts doing some feature film work, too. Amazing he was only 24 when he started working on this show.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Okay, once again avoiding reading any posts, just coming in to say that I've now finished the show through "The Hub" and "Revelations."

Holy cow. This show knows how to hang from a cliff.

Absolutely loved "The Hub" for the Roslin/Adama payoff, and he gets a Han Solo worthy response to her "I love you." Also love how she very nearly kills Baltar. Wow. That was played to tremendous effect. And "Revelations" had a lot of incredible scenes, as one might figured an episode called "Revelations" would...but even then. I love how this series can have the balls to not only end a spate of episodes, but tease the shit out of the next run. They did that with the finale of Season 2, then with the Season 3 capper, and now with this mini-season.

It's been impossible for me to avoid some spoilers for the end of the series, and I understand that it...er...takes risks. Ascends a level in its story, anyway. But who can stop watching after this?

Goddamnit, this is good tv.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Wow. Looks like I killed the party. :)

Almost, almost done. All that's left for me is "Daybreak." The mutiny was as good as the Pegasus and Exodus arcs. Love how "Someone to Look Over Me" brought back the "Watchtower" theme.

Thing's almost over. I'm kinda sad.

[[ETM]]

I predict you will cry in the end.

One way or the other.

[Dead & Messed Up]

It'll take five days to get the finale from Netflix. Can't wait that long. I'm buying it off iTunes.

EDIT:
Is this my favorite Roslin moment ever? It might be:


Zarek: You want to think about the people of this fleet now, and surrender.
Roslin: ...no. Not now. Not ever. Do you hear me? I will use every cannon, every bomb, every bullet, every weapon I have down to my own eyeteeth to end you. I swear it! I'm coming for all of you!

[Dead & Messed Up]

I'm done.

Dried my cheeks.

Amazing finale. Great swashbuckling in the first half, haunting emotion for the second. I knew some of the beats that were coming, but some (like Starbuck's departure) were surprising. The destruction of the ships seems like a common mistake people make - like when hippies say we should get rid of our nukes, cause they're the problem. No, the problem is greed, and that's the Gordian knot of human behavior that we may never be able to solve. The precautionary note at the end is cute, but I hardly find it apocalyptic or judgmental. If anything, it's optimistic - as the show points out, our future is still ours to make.

I don't mind the open-ended nature of Angels Six and Baltar and Starbuck. The ending hints at a much larger plan that's maddeningly vague, irritatingly self-righteous, and possibly meaningless. Which takes me back to my days of attending Catholic church.

[number8]

The ending hints at a much larger plan that's maddeningly vague, irritatingly self-righteous, and possibly meaningless.

Don't watch The Plan.

[[ETM]]

Don't watch The Plan.

Yes.

Ar least not for some time. A LONG time.

[Scar]

;227609']Yes.

Ar least not for some time. A LONG time.

I concur w/ Mr. 8 and ETM.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Don't watch The Plan.

:lol:

I went back and read the thread after finishing the show. I had no intention of watching "The Plan." My point was that the show accurately captured the spirit of religious faith - its simultaneous insanity and appeal.

[number8]

Bear McCreary and Band playing "All Along the Watchtower" live with Katee Sackhoff at the piano. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RqYwOTJK-4)

Second best cover of this song.

[Adam]

Blah

Most cringe-inducingly lame tv moment I can remember seeing - At the end of the third season when the four cylons were fully revealed and they traded off singing lines from All Along the Watchtower. That's about when the show came completely off the rails, for me

[[ETM]]

That's about when the show came completely off the rails, for me

And all was right with the world.

[Adam]

Nope, the world still sucks, but so do the last couple of seasons of BSG

[Dead & Messed Up]

Blah

Most cringe-inducingly lame tv moment I can remember seeing - At the end of the third season when the four cylons were fully revealed and they traded off singing lines from All Along the Watchtower. That's about when the show came completely off the rails, for me

Awesome. It's pretty much my favorite moment of the entire series.

[Scar]

Awesome. It's pretty much my favorite moment of the entire series.

Yep.

[Adam]

Diff'rent strokes, Mr Drummond

[Mara]

Awesome. It's pretty much my favorite moment of the entire series.

I lurv it.