Battlestar Galactica

[Winston*]

is so good that, were I that way inclined, I would be forced to make lewd mention of my own ejaculate in praise of it. I am not that way inclined.

[[ETM]]

I love hearing from people watching Galactica for the first time so much... :pritch:

What have you seen so far?

[lemon]

I looove this show. Sort of stopped watching halfway through the 3rd season. Haven't been able to get myself back into it yet. When does the 4th season come out? I heard the 4th season would be a lot shorter than the 3rd season, which would solve a lot of the pacing issues they had in the 3rd season.

[Mr. Valentine]

due to sci fi dicking around the season 3 dvd release i've only watched through season 2. one of my favorite series.

[Winston*]

;14372']I love hearing from people watching Galactica for the first time so much... :pritch:

What have you seen so far?

Watching season 3, about 7 episodes in. It rules. A step up from the inconsistent second half of season 2.

[ledfloyd]

i intend to tackle this after i catch up on the wire.

[Saya]

I love BSG.

I just got Battlestar Galactica: Razor today. Has anyone seen it? I'm not sure if I should watch it, because I believe it takes place between seasons 3 & 4 and I haven't finished season 3 yet.

[Raiders]

I love BSG.

I just got Battlestar Galactica: Razor today. Has anyone seen it? I'm not sure if I should watch it, because I believe it takes place between seasons 3 & 4 and I haven't finished season 3 yet.

I have seen it. Not necessarily the best thing the show has done, but its moral quandaries are as great as ever. And it doesn't take place between seasons 3 & 4. It is the story of the Pegasus from the initial attack up to its arrival in Season 2 and Lee's taking over command. There's a lot of new footage that would have taken place between seasons 2 & 3.

[Saya]

I have seen it. Not necessarily the best thing the show has done, but its moral quandaries are as great as ever. And it doesn't take place between seasons 3 & 4. It is the story of the Pegasus from the initial attack up to its arrival in Season 2 and Lee's taking over command. There's a lot of new footage that would have taken place between seasons 2 & 3.

Ah, great!

I was afraid that I had to wait until season 3 gets released on dvd to watch it.

[[ETM]]

If anything, Razor is terrific eye candy... for those who are into space battles, Razor offers a much needed dose of things blowing up awesomely in between the powerful character moments. We've heard of 95% of the plot before, but it packs a unexpectedly mighty punch.

[Winston*]

Who are the last 5 Cylons? WHO ARE THEY?!

[Raiders]

Who are the last 5 Cylons? WHO ARE THEY?!

I promise that by the end of the season, you'll only be asking "Who is the last cylon???"

[Kurosawa Fan]

I promise that by the end of the season, you'll only be asking "Who is the last cylon???"

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3986/dannyhustonwa2.jpg

[megladon8]

I loved the first season but have been afraid to venture to the next ones. I was under the impression the latter seasons sucked....but if they don't, I'll definitely check them out.

[Raiders]

I loved the first season but have been afraid to venture to the next ones. I was under the impression the latter seasons sucked....but if they don't, I'll definitely check them out.

Who the heck has said that? If anything, it goes deeper into the cast and makes a few of the more annoying ones less annoying. For the most part, I found Season 3 the best yet. It was more fragmented and less sci-fi, but as a civilization under duress, the show's tension, moral depths and superb handling of a large ensemble is damn near unmatched in any form of media.

[number8]

Who the heck has said that?

Most likely, assholes. Or perhaps morons. I can also generalize and just call them "wrong".

[Saya]

Razor was quite good, although the ending was a bit predictable. I thought the flashbacks to the old Pegasus crew were way more interesting then the 'present day' Pegasus / Adama stuff.

Kendra was great. I loved her character. I really hoped she would stay alive and have some kind of part in season 4. Definitely a shame she's gone.

The flashback scene to the first Cylon War with a yound Adama was awesome.

Making Number 6 the love interest of Admiral Cain gave the ending of the second season a whole new layer. I really liked that.

[Winston*]

Who is the last cylon??? Judging by this episode, I think it's Bob Dylan.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Who is the last cylon??? Judging by this episode, I think it's Bob Dylan.

You can't switch the joke like that! I call foul!

[Winston*]

You can't switch the joke like that! I call foul!

You didn't see the episode. All signs point towards my theory.

[EvilShoe]

You didn't see the episode. All signs point towards my theory.
Could be Jimi Hendrix too, though.

[Winston*]

Could be Jimi Hendrix too, though.

No, EvilShoe. No it couldn't.

[EvilShoe]

No, EvilShoe. No it couldn't.
Maybe you're the fifth cylon.

[Morris Schæffer]

For some reason it hit me just now. Where the hell is Pritch?

[EvilShoe]

For some reason it hit me just now. Where the hell is Pritch?
Are you implying he is the fifth cylon?

[number8]

For some reason it hit me just now. Where the hell is Pritch?

He never registered on the new site.

[number8]

Has anyone seen the Season 4 ads on Sci Fi? I love those.

[[ETM]]

Has anyone seen the Season 4 ads on Sci Fi? I love those.

I adore the character ads, so perfect... visuals, music, everything. That's the kind of advertising the show needed, especially after seeing this ridiculous Quiznos ad during Razor: (SPOILERS) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAjCLmOMU84

I still can't wrap my mind around that one.:crazy:

[Qrazy]

So we're going to have to wait until 2009 for the end of the series? Fuck that shit.

[Raiders]

So we're going to have to wait until 2009 for the end of the series? Fuck that shit.

Huh? What are you referring to?

[Qrazy]

Huh? What are you referring to?

The wikipedia article said the first half of the season would air in March 2008 and the second half could air as late as 2009.

[Raiders]

The wikipedia article said the first half of the season would air in March 2008 and the second half could air as late as 2009.

That's due to the writer's strike, no? I think a lot of shows are going to have lengthy delays until the strike is over. I think wikipedia is merely guessing as to the projected end date.

EDIT: Hm, maybe not. The AICN article states Bamber is indicating Sci-Fi is trying to get two final seasons out of one. Lame. I can only hope he is joking.

[[ETM]]

That's due to the writer's strike, no? I think a lot of shows are going to have lengthy delays until the strike is over. I think wikipedia is merely guessing as to the projected end date.

EDIT: Hm, maybe not. The AICN article states Bamber is indicating Sci-Fi is trying to get two final seasons out of one. Lame. I can only hope he is joking.

In any case, they have finished production on only 13 out of 20 episodes before the strike hit, so Sci-Fi may get a perfectly good excuse to do it, sadly.

[ledfloyd]

i'm all caught up on the wire. this is the next tv show i intend to take down. getting the miniseries from netflix next week.

[number8]

i'm all caught up on the wire. this is the next tv show i intend to take down. getting the miniseries from netflix next week.

Welcome to awesomeness.

[Dukefrukem]

Am I the only one that thought Season 3 sucked? They got new writers and it just was NOT fun to watch for me.

[Raiders]

Am I the only one that thought Season 3 sucked?

I can only hope so. I also don't know where you got that they had all new writers. Ronald Moore is still by and large the main creative force to the show, and we was there for every episode.

[number8]

I can only hope so.

I'm pretty sure he is, around here anyways.

[[ETM]]

I'm pretty sure he is, around here anyways.

Yeah. Some people hated certain episodes, but not the whole season.

What did you think of Razor, Duke?

[Dukefrukem]

Don't get me wrong I thought the first two seasons were awesome and I give them my highest praise, but Season 3 dragged big time.

[Dukefrukem]

;28829']Yeah. Some people hated certain episodes, but not the whole season.

What did you think of Razor, Duke?

I actually haven't seen it.

[Dukefrukem]

this is exactly why i hated season 3.


In the podcast for the Season Three finale, Ron Moore stated that in an effort to attract new viewers, the Sci-Fi Channel pressured the production team to make stand-alone episodes, instead of focusing on previously established storylines. However, this met with a negative critical reception, and Moore stated that by the end of Season Three, the critical reaction and declining ratings following this paradigm shift forced the Sci-Fi Channel to admit that stand-alone episodes simply do not work in the format that the series has established for itself

[[ETM]]

this is exactly why i hated season 3.

We all hated that, but the season itself had way more ups than downs.

[Raiders]

Yeah, there were a few weak episodes, but the first couple, the final three or four, and the boxing match episode (somewhat stand-alone, but also relating to past events) are among the finest of the entire series.

[Dukefrukem]

man i was so annoyed with that boxing epsiode. so annoyed.

[number8]

Oh man, that boxing episode was... I can't even think of a word exquisite enough to describe it. Not even in French.

[[ETM]]

Interesting how people either hate its guts or are in love with the boxing episode.

[Dukefrukem]

;28856']Interesting how people either hate its guts or are in love with the boxing episode.

I think sometimes I get my reactions mixed up with how well the episode depicts exactly what the characters are going through. From what I remember; both Apollo and Starbuck are secretly in love with each other, but both are with different people. During the entire fight, they are both so stubborn not to give up, not to give in and just express their feelings (which is the metaphor), that they inflict physical pain on each other instead. To the point where they are just standing, barely moving, neither a winner.

My reaction to that is annoyed because it seems so blatant how they feel about each other. The tension, their reaction everything just annoys me so much! Almost as annoying as me wanting them to just find Earth already!!! But of course I secretly don't want them to find Earth and continue this journey for as long as possible.

[Morris Schæffer]

Season three is taking ages to reach Belgian or Dutch shores. So in the meantime, why dontcha tell me how it stacks up to the previous two. ;)

EDIT: Perhaps I could have perused the thread, but I'd hate to stumble upon the tiniest of spoilers.

[ledfloyd]

i saw the miniseries last week. it didn't convince me of the shows greatness, but it was good enough that i want to see more. i'm starting the first season today. i have a feeling i'm going to get very tired of the word 'frak'.

[number8]

i have a feeling i'm going to get very tired of the word 'frak'.

No you won't. By the second season, you'd start using it in your daily life.

[Morris Schæffer]

I started season three yesterday with the first two episodes. A very strong start. So again, how does this season stack up against 1 and 2?

[[ETM]]

No you won't. By the second season, you'd start using it in your daily life.

Frak yeah.

Morris, it is a difficult question... watching the show on TV week in week out, some people felt that it dropped in quality somewhat in the middle, only to pick up again and end in a smashing finale. I don't think you'll have that problem watching on DVD. Most people still say S1 is the best overall, although it is the shortest... S2 was a bit uneven towards the end but the Pegasus saved it. It's difficult to compare in the end. Definitely too many standalone "issue" episodes in S3, but still way better than pretty much anything on television.

[ledfloyd]

i watched the first two episodes of the first season. i can tell this is going to be a long and fruitful relationship.

[Morris Schæffer]

;31915']Frak yeah.

Morris, it is a difficult question... watching the show on TV week in week out, some people felt that it dropped in quality somewhat in the middle, only to pick up again and end in a smashing finale. I don't think you'll have that problem watching on DVD. Most people still say S1 is the best overall, although it is the shortest... S2 was a bit uneven towards the end but the
Pegasus saved it. It's difficult to compare in the end. Definitely too many standalone "issue" episodes in S3, but still way better than pretty much anything on television.

Well, episodes 1~6 have been incredible so far. Totally amazing! I hope Colonel Tigh is gonna be all right.

[[ETM]]

Well, episodes 1~6 have been incredible so far. Totally amazing! I hope Colonel Tigh is gonna be all right.

Glad to hear it. I'm sure you'll be satisfied with the rest.

[ledfloyd]

i'm 8 episodes into the first season. eps 5 thru 8 were amazing. the paranoia surrounding the cylons is awesome. very suspenseful. has me dying to dig deeper, netflix needs to get a move on!

[ledfloyd]

I just finished the first half of season 2. Frakking insane. This Adm. Cain is kind of a cunt when you get right down to it.

[number8]

Frakking insane.

See?

Where's my prophetic rep?

[number8]

Bought a t-shirt the other day.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v191/filthysize/wtf.jpg

[Morris Schæffer]

They killed off Kara Thrace?!!!!!!!

What an amazing episode, but I can't shake the sensation that her demise was premature. No, not in the way that any young person shuffling off this mortal coil is premature, but from a writing point of view. And Olmos did some amazing acting in the aftermath!

[Raiders]

They killed off Kara Thrace?!!!!!!!

No, they didn't. Well, not necessarily anyway.

[EvilShoe]

No, they didn't. Well, not necessarily anyway.
He's probably not at the finale yet.

[Morris Schæffer]

Today my dear Shoe!

[[ETM]]

It's in the frakkin' walls, Morris!

[Morris Schæffer]

Totally amazing, but what else is new right? Still, that was a whopper of a conclusion that has provoked a bunch of questions.

Is it now automatically assumed that Kara is also a Cylon? And that she emerged in a resurrection ship after her "demise?" She must be the fifth cylon then. Because back on the ship there were only four. I'm a little unclear on how the triggering mechanism works. How are dormant cylons triggered? Remember Sharon when she shot Adama in season one? That was an example of instant triggering I guess, but why don't they trigger her again to do horrible deeds? And are cylon humans totally indistinguishable from real humans? Hard to believe Tigh has lived 60 years without noticing anything suspicious.

[Qrazy]

I'm assuming the fifth final cylons are another sack of potatoes altogether (from the regular dormants). If not the show doesn't make a lick of sense since the final five (assumedly) have been absolutely instrumental in keeping the humans alive for this long anyway.

[Raiders]

I'm assuming the fifth final cylons are another sack of potatoes altogether (from the regular dormants). If not the show doesn't make a lick of sense since the final five (assumedly) have been absolutely instrumental in keeping the humans alive for this long anyway.

Well, that would be because they assumed they were human. It will be very interesting if the show is able to tap, yet again, into the social/political consciousness of the real world and show a sort of "patriotic" problem for the new cylons. Do you show allegiance to "your kind" over rational thought? And what, in the end, will they choose as "their kind?"

I think it presents a very interesting dilemma. The show has never been particularly forthcoming on the nature of the cylons, which seems intentional. They could create a bunch of sci-fi loopholes to explain how these characters could suddenly be revealed as cylons, but instead they leave it open. I think, as most events on the show, it'll work more on a dramatic and thematic level as opposed to a sensical one.

[EvilShoe]

Ronald D. Moore confirmed this is a different breed of cylons, and we'll get into how they function in season 4.

[Morris Schæffer]

Ah ok. Sounds allright by me.

[Raiders]

Ronald D. Moore confirmed this is a different breed of cylons, and we'll get into how they function in season 4.

Hm, I'm not sure how necessary this move is since I think it could work without it, but I'm not about to start questioning this show's creative decisions. It'll be interesting to see the distinctions they make.

[Qrazy]

Hm, I'm not sure how necessary this move is since I think it could work without it, but I'm not about to start questioning this show's creative decisions. It'll be interesting to see the distinctions they make.

Nah man, it really wouldn't work without it. Those five guys are crucial/central to how the humans have survived for this long. The cylons have lost regen ships and nearly faced biological genocide, if they had had any capacity to wake up the 'sleeper' units, they would have done so a long time ago to end the war.

The show would essentially be negating itself if they were sleepers in the sense that the first couple were.

[[ETM]]

New S4 promo, VERY nice:
http://io9.com/369909/why-battlestar-galactica-is-the-best-political-drama-on-tv

[Morris Schæffer]

Cool. Prediction: Baltar's going to redeem himself.

[number8]

5

[[ETM]]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZkllM8znx4 :pritch:

[number8]

3

[ledfloyd]

i just watched the first four episodes of season 3 last night. i see no decline in quality yet.

[number8]

I actually think the whole New Caprica arc might be their highest point ever.

[ledfloyd]

I actually think the whole New Caprica arc might be their highest point ever.
I liked it alot. I think it could've went on longer. Seemed to work out alright though. Interested to see where it goes from here. I've heard alot of mixed things on season 3.

The Pegasus stuff is probably the high point for me so far.

[number8]

2

[number8]

15 MINUTES!!!

[Mysterious Dude]

15 MINUTES!!!

Ohmygodohmygodohmygod!!!

Wait... I actually already watched it.

[[ETM]]

FRAK YES. I don't know what I liked more in the episode... wall to wall awesomeness.

[number8]

Goddamn Saul gave me a heart attack with his dream.

[Qrazy]

New ep was good stuff... so are there ten ep's this season?

[[ETM]]

so are there ten ep's this season?

Twenty... but most likely ten this year.

[Marley]

Ok, I finally finished Season 3 and the finale was mind-blowingly awesome. I can't wait to watch the first epiosode of season 4 now.

[Mara]

Ok, I finally finished Season 3 and the finale was mind-blowingly awesome. I can't wait to watch the first epiosode of season 4 now.

It's incredible. I only got into BSG recently, so this is the first season I've watched on television, and it's an entirely different experience. It feels much more immediate, and having time to ruminate on the experience later lets it make a much deeper impression, I think.

[Marley]

It's incredible. I only got into BSG recently, so this is the first season I've watched on television, and it's an entirely different experience. It feels much more immediate, and having time to ruminate on the experience later lets it make a much deeper impression, I think.

I know what you mean. Up until now I have been watching the show on DVD and the anticipation each week for Season 4 will surely fuel my desire to actually watch it on its regular schedule even if that means suffering through countless commercials.

I don't know if this theory has been discussed in the previous pages but is it possible that Everyone are cylons?

[[ETM]]

I don't know if this theory has been discussed in the previous pages but is it possible that Everyone are cylons?

That one would be worse than the ending of St. Elsewhere, IMO.

[Marley]

;54808']That one would be worse than the ending of St. Elsewhere, IMO.

Sorry, I don't understand the reference. Mainly because I have no idea what St. Elsewhere is. :P

[[ETM]]

Sorry, I don't understand the reference. Mainly because I have no idea what St. Elsewhere is. :P

It's kinda well known around the popular interwebs, Google it.:)

[Mara]

I thought this week's episode was actually even better than the last. Riveting from stop to finish.

[number8]

The return of the sad flute music!!

[Qrazy]

The acting in this show is really kind of... not good. I bore with it for a long time, but it's really starting to grate.

And dialogue like... I'm machine enough to admit... oy kaloy.

Alls I'm saying is the plot resolutions better deliver or I'm gonna be pissed.

[Qrazy]

;54808']That one would be worse than the ending of St. Elsewhere, IMO.

Someone posted that possibility on RT and then about 5 people were like.... Ohh yeah that would be a great ending! I felt like I'd entered crazy town.

[Qrazy]

;54808']That one would be worse than the ending of St. Elsewhere, IMO.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~kwgow/crossovers.html

[Raiders]

The acting in this show is really kind of... not good. I bore with it for a long time, but it's really starting to grate.

And dialogue like... I'm machine enough to admit... oy kaloy.

Alls I'm saying is the plot resolutions better deliver or I'm gonna be pissed.

The acting is not good? What the hell? What show are you watching???

[number8]

The acting is not good? What the hell? What show are you watching???

Qrazy's a cylon. Don't listen to him.

[Qrazy]

The acting is not good? What the hell? What show are you watching???

Qrazy's guide to recognizing not good (not necessarily bad, just... not good) acting (often the director's at fault for cliched drama rather than the actor's as they are asked to play the scene the same way as they've played others in the past):

1. The actor opts for the same expression to express a variety of emotions.
- Baltar (a confused, scared, grimace... eyebrows drawn together, wide eyed)
- Odama (stone faced, world weary) - At first he was very good but the schtick is getting repetitive... I'm not going to lose you, become a pilot again, I have faith in you!
- Lee (constipated)
- etc.

2. The major character's become rote, the range of emotions is restricted.
- Saul (grumpy-angry) - Although he did have his moment on New Caprica.
- Lee (Bamber has zero range, period.)
- Roslin (settled way too much in her authority figure groove, much much better in the first season)

Don't get me started on the peripheral cast (random marines, etc).

When nuance is called for David Simon opts for close-ups rather than let the scene develop and the actor emote naturally... as I said it's probably as much a problem with the direction as the acting but still tension is forced out of the scenes rather than allowed to develop.

I've never been a fan of the flashforward at the beginning either, always seemed like a cheap way to hype things up. It's just the inverse of a cliff hanger.

The creators can write in as many shouting matches as they want and squeeze as many tears out of the crew members too but imho that kind of melodrama degrades strong storyline. Sometimes it's called for, other times it's over the top.

[Qrazy]

OK so rather than saying the acting is not good I think I'd like to rephrase that as the dramatic devices are beginning to become overused and stale.

[Mara]

The only actress who occasionally falls flat for me on the series is Grace Park. Sometimes she says a line and I cringe. (Other times she's fine.)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Tricia Helfer, as an ex-model playing a robot, is a ten times better actress than she has any right to be.

And I think Olmos, Hogan, and Sackoff are all exceptional.

[Qrazy]

The only actress who occasionally falls flat for me on the series is Grace Park. Sometimes she says a line and I cringe. (Other times she's fine.)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Tricia Helfer, as an ex-model playing a robot, is a ten times better actress than she has any right to be.

And I think Olmos, Hogan, and Sackoff are all exceptional.

The first two are exceptional when they have room to be exceptional but at this stage they are being given the same dramatic arcs with their respective companions that we've seen before... or at least Olmos is, Hogan has some new room to explore.

I find nothing exceptional about Sackoff's performance.

[[ETM]]

I find nothing exceptional about Sackoff's performance.

I think she's doing great so far in S4. I haven't been convinced at times with her performance, especially early on, but this is definitely new ground for her.

Anyway, if there's something we can all agree on, it's that there are no two people alive who think exactly the same of Battlestar Galactica, or anything related to it, especially the actors/characters/performances.

[Mara]

I find nothing exceptional about Sackoff's performance.

I have a girl-crush on her. I think she's awesome.

My favorite acting moments of hers were trapped-in-the-house with fake-husband Leoben.

[Raiders]

James Callis as Baltar is just about my favorite current TV performance.

[Sxottlan]

Actually, ever since New Caprica, I'd say there's been a sinister under-current to Roslin that wasn't there before.

Although I don't remember anything about her cancer coming back.

[Raiders]

Although I don't remember anything about her cancer coming back.

Then you haven't seen the last episode from Season 3 nor the first two episodes from this season. It would be impossible to miss.

[Sxottlan]

Then you haven't seen the last episode from Season 3 nor the first two episodes from this season. It would be impossible to miss.

I've seen the episodes, but obviously the finale was months ago and I guess I just missed it stated outright last week.

Either way though, I'm glad it's back. The cancer's contrived disappearance was a weak point in the show.

[Mysterious Dude]

Aw shit. :eek:

[Qrazy]

Oh snap, ehh she was a shit character anyway.

[[ETM]]

Very disappointing episode.

[Qrazy]

;57952']Very disappointing episode.

Tried to cover too many plot threads at once and did none very successfully.

[Raiders]

;57952']Very disappointing episode.

I would say the Galactica stuff was the best so far this season while the cylon stuff was thrown in too quickly and abruptly. Still, those last ten minutes were, while painfully inevitable, pretty cruel and intense.

[Qrazy]

I would say the Galactica stuff was the best so far this season while the cylon stuff was thrown in too quickly and abruptly. Still, those last ten minutes were, while painfully inevitable, pretty cruel and intense.

How did you feel about Good Night and Good Luck? I have no interest in seeing Leatherheads but just curious. I found the former to be thematically valuable but formally very underwhelming.

[ledfloyd]

so i just got to the boxing episode... is the show attempting to jump the shark?

[Qrazy]

so i just got to the boxing episode... is the show attempting to jump the shark?

After watching the last few new episodes... yes. Things are getting stupidly melodramatic. I'm starting to agree with a poster on RT who said the show is/has become basically a soap opera in space.

Can a scene ever just end without ratcheting up the tension?

- I want you to tell me if you feel guilt for killing billions of people.
- Of course I do.
- ... *pauses* Guns!

*cue fast drum music*

And.... scene.

[ledfloyd]

I really liked the show up until this episode so I'm hoping it's just a bad episode and not the beginning of a trend. The metaphor at the end was so blatant it was embarassing. The soap opera comparison isn't far off. I don't care about love quadrangles (love squares?), give me more cylons and political/military intrigue!

[[ETM]]

the show is/has become basically a soap opera in space.

This is about the... least intelligent complaint I have ever heard about BSG. And one I cannot begin to understand. One would think a significant part of the audiences couldn't care less about any of the characters and what happens to them beyond their cog-like purpose in the "big picture". Of course, they are not exactly likeable, and the romances/relationships haven't exactly been handled well in the period of S3 mentioned above, but - come on. Sexual/romantic tension between several key characters immediately = soap opera? I'm not sure what exactly people expect from a TV show who is about people - people from space, but still people - and how they deal with extreme situations.

The "boxing episode" seems to be the litmus test of a sort, since people seem to either hate its guts, or love it the most out of all the episodes in S3 and some even in the entire show. For one, half the cast and the show runners themselves have cited it as their favorite ever.

[Qrazy]

;60245']This is about the... least intelligent complaint I have ever heard about BSG. And one I cannot begin to understand. One would think a significant part of the audiences couldn't care less about any of the characters and what happens to them beyond their cog-like purpose in the "big picture". Of course, they are not exactly likeable, and the romances/relationships haven't exactly been handled well in the period of S3 mentioned above, but - come on. Sexual/romantic tension between several key characters immediately = soap opera? I'm not sure what exactly people expect from a TV show who is about people - people from space, but still people - and how they deal with extreme situations.

The "boxing episode" seems to be the litmus test of a sort, since people seem to either hate its guts, or love it the most out of all the episodes in S3 and some even in the entire show. For one, half the cast and the show runners themselves have cited it as their favorite ever.

Unfortunately just because you label something as unintelligent, does not actually make it so, but it's great to have a dream. Keep it alive.

Repasted from Yarn's comments on RT:


Great. You should also check out Days of Our Lives. Good story tellers works out ways to play by their own rules. I am not talking about whether they get the physics right or whether or not they have perfect continuity in terms of whether they should turn right at the end of corridor #2. Bad story tellers use cheap tricks like:

Amnesia: Don't Forget That! Soap characters have a much higher rate of amnesia than the regular medical population. These amnesia victims also have a greater tendency to forget the very people and things that make it most convenient for plot-induced trauma to the other characters. (Boomer)

Angels Among Us. Lazy writing device employed by soap writers in which a living character is visited by a deceased character's ghostly spirit, who most often will talk the living character into a different way of behavior for the plot. Also provides a quick paycheck for the departed actor who has been unable to secure an acting gig since leaving. (Baltar's personal #6)

Endless Employment Philosophy. Soap characters can change career fields overnight with no experience or training required. This is also true of characters who have never worked in an office environment suddenly finding themselves with high-powered corporate jobs (i.e. Y&R's Brad Carlton, who went from trimming the hedges to the Jabot boardroom). (Lee Adama: Space Ace, Defense Lawyer, Ship Captain, Conflict Negotiator, Politician)

Evil Twin Rule. It is a proven fact that whenever an angelic character begins acting completely out of character, it's never truly them, but their never-before-seen or mentioned evil twin brother or sister. (BSG is rife with doppelgangers)

Law Disenforcement Rule. Soap opera policeman and detectives are among the most useless creatures on the planet. They are always late to the scene of a crime and never solve The Big Case prior to someone getting victimized by the villain. Examples include GH's Mac Scorpio, Y&R's "Detective Clueless" Paul Williams, and ATWT's entire Jokedale Police Department. (Lee's defense for Baltar is basically, "Hey we have had no consistency or logic so far, why start now? Let him go.")

Medical Miracle. Don't fret when your favorite soap character is maimed, scarred, paralyzed or crippled in a horrifying accident. They will always get better, usually just in time to affect a major plot. In addition, these injuries will be forgotten years later. (Dr. Baltar's Magic Cylon Juice)

http://www.soaphunks.net/cliches.php

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bos Grunniens
And I don’t get this “they make it up as they go along!” criticism that's held against shows like BSG and Lost. Yes, a lot of it wasn’t planned from day one (Moore’s commentaries are endlessly fascinating in this regard. Starbuck’s death started as a joke). They can have a general idea of what they want to do, but they can’t plan everything out from the very beginning and expect those things to happen. The show's been going since, what, 2004? Shit happens. Productions evolve over time. Budget constraints, scheduling problems, new ideas presenting themselves, and other circumstances change episodes dramatically from scrip to editing. Sometimes things work out, sometimes they don’t (hello, Fat Lee). I wouldn’t worry about it.

There is nothing wrong with making it up as you go along. It's only "wrong" when it is painfully obvious that this is precisely what is going on. It shouldn't be obvious that there is no plan, no continuity, that they regularly paint themselves into creative corners, etc.

At any rate, if you love the show, that's great. I thought BSG rocked from the mini through season 1. I checked out this seaon's opener and found it to be more of the same. Starbuck is magically back from the dead, everyone is a Cylon, the Cylons are suddenly attacking (and then suddenly not attacking - a favorite trick on GSB - the deuce ex sloppima).

I don't agree with all of what he said, but I do with a lot of it. The love triangles and relations are getting out of control (now it's Boomer with number one? Please.), the script is constantly forcing characters into melodramatic confrontation, and I find that the more I watch the show the more I find the general aesthetic to be lacking... shaky cam around... character confrontation, go in for close-up... tons of incredibly flat imagery reliant mostly on performance and cheap ratcheting up tension editing stylings...

I used to really like the show I just find myself becoming more and more disappointed... the show's weaknesses are shining through and it's strengths (compelling storylines, compelling political subtext) are waning.

[[ETM]]

Unfortunately just because you label something as unintelligent, does not actually make it so, but it's great to have a dream. Keep it alive.

I wanted to label it something different but it would have been unfair. Let's just agree to disagree on this.

I've been criticizing the show for many of the same reasons for a while now, I'm just firmly against broad statements such as "it's a soap opera!".

[Qrazy]

;60353']I wanted to label it something different but it would have been unfair. Let's just agree to disagree on this.

I've been criticizing the show for many of the same reasons for a while now, I'm just firmly against broad statements such as "it's a soap opera!".

Alright yeah but I think the complaint is primarily that now it's beginning to demonstrate soap opera conceits more and more... not that it's just a soap opera.

[Kurosawa Fan]

The show has always been melodramatic fluff. It's just taken you guys longer to see it.

[Qrazy]

The show has always been melodramatic fluff. It's just taken you guys longer to see it.

Not really, as I said I saw it from the beginning but now the negatives are starting to really outweigh the positives.

[Kurosawa Fan]

Not really, as I said I saw it from the beginning but now the negatives are starting to really outweigh the positives.

I watched the pilot and half of the first season, and stopped watching for the exact reason that you're losing interest. It's always been there man. You just were choosing to ignore it for a while.

[ledfloyd]

I watched the pilot and half of the first season, and stopped watching for the exact reason that you're losing interest. It's always been there man. You just were choosing to ignore it for a while.
perhaps it was there, but i felt it was outweighed by other stuff more interesting stuff. this last episode i watched is the first one i've had a problem with at all.

[number8]

The melodrama stuff has certainly always been there, and it's precisely the reason why I watch the show. The hook that initially got me loving the show was the father and son relationship between Adama and Apollo, as well as Starbuck, then somewhere along the way I got involved in the mythology stuff.

That boxing episode was godly.

[Qrazy]

I watched the pilot and half of the first season, and stopped watching for the exact reason that you're losing interest. It's always been there man. You just were choosing to ignore it for a while.

Yeah it's true I was choosing to ignore it but because there were other good elements which made up for it but the balance is weakening and the bad is starting to way outweigh the good.

[Qrazy]

The melodrama stuff has certainly always been there, and it's precisely the reason why I watch the show. The hook that initially got me loving the show was the father and son relationship between Adama and Apollo, as well as Starbuck, then somewhere along the way I got involved in the mythology stuff.

That boxing episode was godly.

I just inititally liked the universe building... how different areas of the fleet were fleshed out... engineering rooms, hanger deck, etc... the technology was science fiction obviously but went the gritty lived in route (ala OT Star Wars vs. PT Star Wars) so that things seemed real.

I think this is one of the reasons I can't get on board with certain melodramatic excesses either... with Sirk or Fassbinder the melodrama is excess in relation to other visual excess... things are meant to be larger than life.

With BSG though you have the gritty realism aesthetic contrasted with the melodramatic approach which isn't nearly as effective in my mind.

[Mysterious Dude]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa13/TeddyRoosevelt_2007/Metaphor.jpg

[number8]

Hmm. I think I've been disappointed by Season 4 so far. This is the time when they should either wrap everything up or create closure for some of the character relationships... but what they've been doing so far stink of set-ups. I hope they don't rush the ending.

[Raiders]

The word melodrama is being thrown around in here as if it is automatically a negative. That annoys me.

[Qrazy]

The word melodrama is being thrown around in here as if it is automatically a negative. That annoys me.

Not really I gave a pretty explicit example as to why Sirk and Fassbinder work and why I don't think it works here.

[Raiders]

Not really I gave a pretty explicit example as to why Sirk and Fassbinder work and why I don't think it works here.

I was probably responding more to KF's rather curt dismissal.

[ledfloyd]

The word melodrama is being thrown around in here as if it is automatically a negative. That annoys me.
i love good melodrama as much as the next guy but the majority of it is bad. the good stuff seems to be the exception.

i watched some more of season 3. i'm enjoying it. there still are some very soapy scenes. but it's not all soap like the boxing episode. the acting and framing in some parts seems very days of our lives. but it seems to be getting back to the religious stuff and the cylon intrigue and everything that attracted me to the show initially.

[Qrazy]

I was probably responding more to KF's rather curt dismissal.

Fair.

[Kurosawa Fan]

I was probably responding more to KF's rather curt dismissal.

My negativity towards melodrama has been noted on many occasions. I wasn't dismissive. I gave the show nearly an entire season to win me over. Unfortunately, the conclusion I drew was that the show was too melodramatic for my liking, and was fluff. It was instantly forgettable, and the allegories that everyone goes nuts about were simplistic and boring. It felt like a soap opera through and through.

[[ETM]]

Your knowledge of soap operas scares me more than anything else, KF.

[Kurosawa Fan]

;62939']Your knowledge of soap operas scares me more than anything else, KF.

I blame my wife. :|

[number8]

Total woah.

[Qrazy]

Oy... I don't think things are going to end happily ever after.

[Qrazy]

I've found the last two episodes to be an improvement over the rest of the season so that's nice.

[[ETM]]

I've found the last two episodes to be an improvement over the rest of the season so that's nice.

I've found that they are the almost perfect continuation of the season so far, so that's even nicer.:)

[Qrazy]

;69744']I've found that they are the almost perfect continuation of the season so far, so that's even nicer.:)

Mmm rose colored glasses. ;)

[[ETM]]

Mmm rose colored glasses. ;)

Hahahaha! No way. I've expressed discontent a number of times so far this season, but overall, when viewed as a whole, it's all working rather well, with moments of greatness, as well as lameness, sprinkled throughout.

[Qrazy]

;69813']Hahahaha! No way. I've expressed discontent a number of times so far this season, but overall, when viewed as a whole, it's all working rather well, with moments of greatness, as well as lameness, sprinkled throughout.

Pretty sure I missed last week and last night so have to catch up.

[Qrazy]

... And we're back to crappy. Everyone pulling guns on everyone. Everyone having sex with everyone. Everyone trying to take and/or kill everyone's child and/or cat. Personally the soap opera comparison is becoming more and more apt to me.

[[ETM]]

Personally the soap opera comparison is becoming more and more apt to me.

And more and more bewildering to me. I'm beginning to suspect Matchcut is some kind of an interdimensional hub, and we're living in different realities, because it's either that or you're completely out of tune with the show.

[Qrazy]

;70304']And more and more bewildering to me. I'm beginning to suspect Matchcut is some kind of an interdimensional hub, and we're living in different realities, because it's either that or you're completely out of tune with the show.

Tee hee I knew that would irk you... although I didn't say it to irk you, I do believe it...

*frolicks off*

[[ETM]]

Tee hee I knew that would irk you... although I didn't say it to irk you, I do believe it...

*frolicks off*

I'm not irked. I just still can't wrap my mind around it.:P

[Qrazy]

Last episode was decent, the end did get to me... which hasn't happened since Colonel Tigh and his wife.

[[ETM]]

Last episode was decent, the end did get to me... which hasn't happened since Colonel Tigh and his wife.

Well, you are human after all.

*scratches Qrazy off the potential Cylon termination list*

The mid-season finale should knock all of our proverbial socks off.

Btw, that was a great addition to "answers to 'I love you' used in fiction"...

- Star Wars: I know.
- Ghost: Ditto.
- Adama: 'Bout time.

[number8]

So it's been over a week since the finale, and none of you have said anything. Did the interest wane that much?

I think the implication of what they found on Earth was some heavy handed brilliance.

[[ETM]]

So it's been over a week since the finale, and none of you have said anything. Did the interest wane that much?

I've discussed it at length where there are more than a handful of willing fans to talk to. Matchcut is simply not interested enough.


I think the implication of what they found on Earth was some heavy handed brilliance.

The last scene was perfection - direction, SFX, performances, sound, everything.

[Mysterious Dude]

;74938']The last scene was perfection - direction, SFX, performances, sound, everything.
I thought it was a little odd that every major character had to be on Earth at the same time.

[[ETM]]

I thought it was a little odd that every major character had to be on Earth at the same time.

It worked well in context, the logistics are irrelevant with revelations in mind.

[Morris Schæffer]

I don't wanna spoil myself. I saw number8 mention something about a finale in a recent post. So what's the deal now? The show is over? After ten episodes? Because that's how many I've downloaded so far.

[Raiders]

I don't wanna spoil myself. I saw number8 mention something about a finale in a recent post. So what's the deal now? The show is over? After ten episodes? Because that's how many I've downloaded so far.

No, there will be ten more next year.

[Morris Schæffer]

No, there will be ten more next year.

Ah good. Beginning of 2009 hopefully?

[Morris Schæffer]

So far so good. Really loved the last two episodes.


I think the implication of what they found on Earth was some heavy handed brilliance.

The implication being that Man can do no good and will always end up destroying himself? I kind of had a feeling that Earth would be a wasteland. Didn't seem logical to me for Earth to be simply....earth. How would they even approach Earth with Nasa (or the BSG-variant) checking the cosmos? Things like that. And I've got a sneaking suspicion there was something in the debris that should have seemed familiar, that I should have noticed. Either way, they've found Earth so why ten more episodes?

[number8]

No, not that cynical. I think I was talking about how the truce came way too late. I was wary of how positive those last moments before the twist was. Cylons and humans huggy-wuggy and shit. The last scene is a reminder that their shared understanding was paved in blood, and that there can be no reward for that.

Sort of like, say, how even if America and the insurgence come to stay, Iraq is already a war-torn shithole with a broken government system, and not the liberated democracy they were hoping for.

I think that's what Earth represents in BSG. Things are so grim and shitty after 9/11 that we were hoping for something good to come out of it. Taking Saddam out and liberating an oppressed country was that fantasy, it was our mythical Earth. But after such a prolonged conflict, that dream is unattainable.

[Qrazy]

I knew Earth would be a Wasteland because Asimov already did it in the Foundation series.

[Morris Schæffer]

Ok number8. Got it. And I agree.

[Dukefrukem]

I just finished season 4 (sorry for the bump), and I was a bit dissapointed with the finale.


I thought a reunion with the people of Earth would have been such a cool idea to move towards. And possibly the new allied Cylons teaming up with the Earthlings and the rest of the Galactica fleet, would have introduced a few more characters. Now what's going to happen? And does anyone have any more info on season 5?

[Morris Schæffer]

Another question. What exactly is Razor and should I have seen it prior to having started season 4?

@Dukefrukem: I'm not saying I disagree, but I thought it was rather telling, bleak and defeating for the survivors to discover that war is really an inescapable reality for every living creature.

But yeah, I'm not sure what's gonna happen now.

[[ETM]]

Another question. What exactly is Razor and should I have seen it prior to having started season 4?

Razor is sort of a double-episode-slash-TV-movie vignette. It does hold several juicy tidbits that would have made S4 tastier for you but no, it's not necessary to view it in that order. It basically tells the story of (spoilered for n00bs) Battlestar Pegasus and Admiral Cain, as well as a mission taking place after Lee takes over command of the ship, involving some really cool stuff and flashbacks and whatnot. It's cool, and you should see it.

[Dukefrukem]

I saw Razer and it's not too bad.. worth seeing if you're a fan of the series.

[Winston*]

Razor was okay. Couldn't shake an overarching feeling of pointlessness. Lead character just wasn't very interesting.

Season 4's out on DVD here I think. Probably check it out fairly soon.

[Saya]

Battlestar Spinoff Caprica Given the Green Light (http://tv.ign.com/articles/934/934772p1.html)


SCI FI have announced a 20-episode first season for the series, which stars Eric Stoltz (Milk, Chicago Hope), Esai Morales (Jericho, NYPD Blue), Paula Malcomson (Deadwood, ER) and Golden Globe nominee Polly Walker (Cane, Rome).

Says SCI FI, "Set 50 years before Battlestar Galactica, Caprica follows two rival families – the Graystones and the Adamas – as they grow, compete, and thrive in the vibrant world of the 12 Colonies, a society recognizably close to our own. Enmeshed in the burgeoning technology of artificial intelligence and robotics that will eventually lead to the creation of the Cylons, the two houses go toe-to-toe blending action with corporate conspiracy and sexual politics. Caprica will deliver all of the passion, intrigue, political backbiting and family conflict in television's first science fiction family saga. Production on the series is slated to begin summer '09 in Vancouver for a 2010 premiere. Jeffrey Reiner (Friday Night Lights) directed the pilot."

[Morris Schæffer]

When will the remaining 10 episodes air?

[Dukefrukem]

When will the remaining 10 episodes air?

January 16th (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/home.html)

[Mara]

I'm gearing up.

Obviously.

[Mara]

Cool, thoughtful article from mental floss comparing BSG to Star Trek:

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/21756

[Mysterious Dude]

I really do not believe that any part of a guitar would survive under a little bit of sand for 2,000 years.

[number8]

I really do not believe that any part of a guitar would survive under a little bit of sand for 2,000 years.

Cylon guitars, fool.

[Raiders]

That Dualla stuff was heartbreaking. Not sure yet about how I feel about the reveal of the final cylon. And if Starbuck's not a cylon, she also ain't human. Leoben's reaction I guess confirms she really is the harbinger of doom, whoever's doom that may be... or have been.

[number8]

Olmos is a scary drunk.

[[ETM]]

I really do not believe that any part of a guitar would survive under a little bit of sand for 2,000 years.

Once I bought the buildings and everything, accepting a guitar piece was easy. Doesn't bother me much.

Btw, I'm not buying "Ellen Cylon" at all, I think Tigh is projecting her image because of his still enormous guilt. He wants her to be reborn.

[Raiders]

;131709']Btw, I'm not buying "Ellen Cylon" at all, I think Tigh is projecting her image because of his still enormous guilt. He wants her to be reborn.

Well, the ads are running with the "reveal," though I guess that doesn't mean it is for sure, but I'm buying it.

[[ETM]]

Yeah, Moore has confirmed it.

[Morris Schæffer]

That Dualla stuff was heartbreaking.

Her suicide came entirely out of left field for me. Didn't she seem entirely happy during those moments? Why the suicide? I guess that's why I found it less than powerful.

[Raiders]

Her suicide came entirely out of left field for me. Didn't she seem entirely happy during those moments? Why the suicide? I guess that's why I found it less than powerful.

Were you paying attention the whole time? She was super distraught over the revelation of Earth, just look at her face and body language after the reveal and on the flight back to Galactica. Not to mention she knows Lee is still in love with Kara even if he is, for a moment, willing to be with Dee. Her outing with Lee was to have that final happy moment and peace before she put herself out of her misery. I found it very powerful and sad.

[number8]

Yah, Morris.

The happy was entirely the point of the suicide. She told Geta right before that she wants to hold on to the feeling forever. That's exactly why it was so powerful. The most affecting part was when Lee said in the morgue that he's been trying to find a reason but "...truth is we'll never know."

[Qrazy]

Olmos is a scary drunk.

Having two guns in that scene was retarded but otherwise it was good.

[Qrazy]

;131841']Yeah, Moore has confirmed it.

Confirmed what, that it's Ellen?

[Morris Schæffer]

Okay Raiders and number8. I realized there was some history there, but missed it this time. All I could think of was fresh new start for the both of them.

Now I'd like to watch that again.;)

[[ETM]]

Confirmed what, that it's Ellen?

That and more. I was too lazy to post the link:
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.c om/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html

A good read.

[number8]

That's a really good read. So this episode was shot during the strike and none of the cast and crew knew if they're going to get to do another one? That's so serendipitous with the episode's mood.

[Qrazy]

Reposted from RT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW2_2ihIuzI

[number8]

BSG back to politics. Just the way I like it.

Geta, you fucking dick.

[EyesWideOpen]

BSG back to politics. Just the way I like it.

Geta, you fucking dick.

Geta's speech to Starbuck was awesome she's been a bitch for most of the series and to have him go at her was great.

"What I don't even get a pity frak?" Classic.

[number8]

I couldn't care less about that. I'm referring to him attempting mutiny.

[Raiders]

It's spelled G-A-E-T-A for frak's sake.

Also, it's awesome to see the idealist turn mutinous.

[Qrazy]

I'm glad they finally pulled the rug out from under all the God crap. I was getting a bit tired of the show's treatment of monotheism as some sort of transcendent revelation. Although I suppose it did make for a marginally interesting dialectic between the polytheistic and monotheistic schools of thought... very marginally interesting.

[Mara]

I was getting a bit tired of the show's treatment of monotheism as some sort of transcendent revelation.

I don't think that the show did this at all. The two characters who were most staunchly monotheistic were Six-in-Gaius'-head, who is suspect because she's... well... a delusion in someone's head, and Gaius himself, who is consistently shown to be a hypocritical bastard.

[Qrazy]

I don't think that the show did this at all. The two characters who were most staunchly monotheistic were Six-in-Gaius'-head, who is suspect because she's... well... a delusion in someone's head, and Gaius himself, who is consistently shown to be a hypocritical bastard.

Well no, all of the cylons are monotheists and Gaius' character flaws aside if memory serves I had thought that he had swayed quite a few of the main human cast towards his newly formed monotheistic beliefs.

[Mara]

Well no, all of the cylons are monotheists and Gaius' character flaws aside if memory serves I had thought that he had swayed quite a few of the main human cast towards his newly formed monotheistic beliefs.

But is it your opinion that the show thinks that is a good thing? Is the show pro-monotheism? Because I think both the polytheists and athiests are shown much more sympathetically.

[Qrazy]

But is it your opinion that the show thinks that is a good thing? Is the show pro-monotheism? Because I think both the polytheists and athiests are shown much more sympathetically.

A revelation doesn't have to be a good thing, it just has to be a previously unknown thing. Prior to more recent episodes (tending towards faith lost) I don't really feel the show sided more with polytheism or monotheism. What I was getting bored with was the manner by which the show treated monotheism as a novel idea. Clearly they purposely tackled the issue in this way, but the dialectic being explored felt very stale to me and I'm glad the arc of the show has finally forsaken the god(s)... for now at least.

[Amnesiac]

A revelation doesn't have to be a good thing, it just has to be a previously unknown thing.

How revelatory. :)

[Mara]

Oh, I understand now. I thought you were complaining about the "transcendent" part-- that the introduction of monotheism was being handled with too much reverence.

You were annoyed by the fact that it was being treated as "revelation," something never thought of before.

Obviously, the show inverts the norm (at least here in the United States) of monotheism being the majority and polytheism being the minority. I find that an interesting way of tackling the difficulties that exist in both systems, but I understand if you find it annoying.

[Raiders]

Yeah, seems to me that humans here are no different for the most part than many parts of the world that have little to no interaction with Christianity or the idea of a single, governing diety.

[[ETM]]

Holyc crap, I expected the shit hitting the fan, but that was mindblowingly spectacular.:eek:

[Mysterious Dude]

I'm starting to wonder if this civilization is actually worth saving.

[Duncan]

I've been meaning to watch this show for a long time, finally got around to buying/watching the first season. Intense stuff, if wildly melodramatic at times. I really want to continue, but it seems like this is a particularly expensive TV show. Especially with this Season 2.0, 2.5 bullshit.

[Mara]

I've been meaning to watch this show for a long time, finally got around to buying/watching the first season. Intense stuff, if wildly melodramatic at times. I really want to continue, but it seems like this is a particularly expensive TV show. Especially with this Season 2.0, 2.5 bullshit.

It's worth it.

If you don't want to buy, you can get it fairly cheap on iTunes, or go the Netflix route.

[Duncan]

It's worth it.

If you don't want to buy, you can get it fairly cheap on iTunes, or go the Netflix route.

I live in the middle of nowhere without access to high speed internet, so iTunes is out. I have zip.ca (Canadian netfix equivalent) but consider film a much higher priority.

I'll probably continue at some point anyway. One of the reasons I really enjoyed the first season is that it's a document of recent history. It's interesting to be reminded of what people were arguing about 5 years ago, and how we're still pretty much arguing the same things. I'll get to catch up with the present, in a way. It also makes me wonder what people who see this show 20 years from now will think of it.

[number8]

I should stop watching the next week previews.

I flipped my shit when they revealed Saul is dead.

[[ETM]]

I should stop watching the next week previews.

I would even recommend closing your eyes or something during the opening tease.

[Mara]

I should stop watching the next week previews.

I flipped my shit when they revealed Saul is dead.

Holy crap!

I should stop randomly clicking on things that people put in spoiler tags.

:cry:

[Raiders]

I'm about 99% certain that...


Tigh isn't dead. They wouldn't use it in every promo if a main character bit the dust like that. And if he is, we're about to discover how the final five keep their consciousness going since no way is his character gone for good.

[Dukefrukem]

;135996']I would even recommend closing your eyes or something during the opening tease.

Thats what I do. I hate that opening.

I'm guessing, they killed both of em.

[[ETM]]

I should stop randomly clicking on things that people put in spoiler tags.

:cry:

I know! It takes all the will power I have not to click.

[[ETM]]

Frak-tastic stuff once again.

[Raiders]

It went exactly where I expected it to and I'm not sure it was among the series' best (a little tedious, and ENOUGH with the dream-sequence-fakeouts) but there were some wonderful moments; Adama's march to the CIC and Zarek's "handling" of the Quorum in particular.

[number8]

I was... surprisingly emotional during the Quorum thing. Didn't expect to. I think I'm now beyond just caring about the show's characters. I'm really invested in the progress of this society, and these final episodes have been breaking my heart the way Season 1 did.

[Mara]

Okay, finally had a chance to watch. I thought it was a very solid, moving episode. Gaeta has some fine acting, but Starbuck, Roslin and Adama had some great moments too.

A couple things:

I love, love, love chunky Chief, but it was a little embarassing to watch him crawl through tubes. Still, went he went all Kaylee on the engine, it was awesome. What was he looking at with the scars in the wall, though?

Also, did we ever find out what Gaius knew about Gaeta?

[Raiders]

Also, did we ever find out what Gaius knew about Gaeta?

Yeah, though I can't remember if we only find out in the webisodes. Basically, Gaeta was seduced by an Eight model on Caprica who told him that she would look after those he cared about. So he made a list, and she had those on his list executed.

[Mara]

Yeah, though I can't remember if we only find out in the webisodes. Basically, Gaeta was seduced by an Eight model on Caprica who told him that she would look after those he cared about. So he made a list, and she had those on his list executed.

Wow! I guess I should have watched the webisodes...

[number8]

I'm pretty sure that was on actual Season 3 episodes.


EDIT: Nope, I'm wrong. I remember the list being mentioned in Season 3, but yah, the real secret was revealed in the webisodes.

[Dukefrukem]

I was... surprisingly emotional during the Quorum thing. Didn't expect to. I think I'm now beyond just caring about the show's characters. I'm really invested in the progress of this society, and these final episodes have been breaking my heart the way Season 1 did.

So true. I want them to survive... but it looks like things are heading in the wrong direction.

[Mara]

The execution of the quorum was incredibly cold, even for Tom, who generally finds some sort of moral rationalizations for his actions.

[number8]

The execution of the quorum was incredibly cold, even for Tom, who generally finds some sort of moral rationalizations for his actions.

He did. He convinced himself that if he let the quorum live and not take over completely, the coup would not be successful and the whole fleet is going to die.

Not OOC for him. He'd always been willing to make sacrifices for a greater goal.

[Mara]

Not OOC for him. He'd always been willing to make sacrifices for a greater goal.

Not out of character, but still shockingly brutal. I think it's the lowest we've seen him go.

[Mara]

Tom's mentality of ends justifying the means is very... Machiavellian. If you are in any way impeding him, you are collateral.

My sister is currently getting a master's degree in Conflict Resolution and International Peace Relations, and the first thing they told her in the first class she took is that moral ends never justify immoral means. I'd never heard anyone say that before.

[Mysterious Dude]

Just once on this show, I'd like to hear someone say "fuck."

[number8]

Just once on this show, I'd like to hear someone say "fuck."

Adama said "cocksucker" in Razor. Eh? Eh?

[Raiders]

I'd have trouble calling that the best episode or even among the very best, but it exemplifies why I love this show. Cavill's dicussions/anger, and Stockwell's performance, were superb.

[number8]

Yeah, it was a non-event ep, but the Cavill/Helen conversation was amazing. I loved it too, especially when Cavill got frustrated with not being able to properly express a machine's perception because he had to compress it into spoken language. Such a brilliant fancy.

[Qrazy]

Yeah, it was a non-event ep, but the Cavill/Helen conversation was amazing. I loved it too, especially when Cavill got frustrated with not being able to properly express a machine's perception because he had to compress it into spoken language. Such a brilliant fancy.

Ish, except for the fact that he had always existed the way he does exist so his frustration with his current perception/cognition is no more or less than any human's frustration with the limits of their own capacities. They also just sort of gloss over the issue of free will in terms of machine creation... they seem to be implying it must be biological in a certain sense but it clearly isn't in the historical context of the show or the centurions wouldn't have rebelled in the first place. If the issue isn't free will but only love/reproduction as a non-mechanized and purely biological function then Ellen shouldn't have stated free will as an impetus for the humanoid models in her speech.

[Raiders]

Ish, except for the fact that he had always existed the way he does exist so his frustration with his current perception/cognition is no more or less than any human's frustration with the limits of their own capacities.

Right. That's the point. His pre-occupation with his "biological" and physical limitations closes off his mind to the many emotions and, as Ellen stated, "free will" that other cylons, such as six and eight, have come to enjoy.

Also, anyone thinking that Seven, or "Daniel," is

Starbuck's father?

[Mara]

Also, anyone thinking that Seven, or "Daniel," is

Starbuck's father?

Do we know anything about Starbuck's father? Has he ever even been mentioned? That would be an interesting tie-in, and explain her uncanny abilities, if she was the first of the next generation.

[Qrazy]

Right. That's the point. His pre-occupation with his "biological" and physical limitations closes off his mind to the many emotions and, as Ellen stated, "free will" that other cylons, such as six and eight, have come to enjoy.

Also, anyone thinking that Seven, or "Daniel," is

Starbuck's father?

Not sure why you didn't include the rest of my quote since the latter segment of your post responds to it. But essentially I don't think you've really clarified anything. I'm wondering why they're tying the issue of free will to biological status when historically the centurions already seem to have free will. You don't rebel against your creators if you don't have free will. It's contradictory. If instead they're attempting to say that the biological counter-parts have higher order 'free will' (i.e. goal setting, impulse control, etc).

In terms of the first part of your response up to the term 'emotions', yes, that is the point, I was just responding to 8's comment that it's a brilliant fancy because it doesn't make sense to me that Cavill's perception as a machine would be greater than his ability to express it (i.e. any greater than that of a human's perception/inability to express it/frustration as a result). I don't see how Ellen or the five or whoever could create him that way. Essentially I don't believe that Cavill's cognitive abilities greatly outstrip his ability to express them. Perhaps I just misread 8's post and he meant that in relation to him as a machine it was a billiant fancy saddling Cavill with this particular human frustration/delusion because if anyone were to have such a frustration it would make sense for a machine to have it.

The whole treatment of the cylons has been somewhat lacking for me. What are they capable of and what separates them from other humans? They seem to be able to muster superhuman strength at times. Do they have photographic memories? Why do their spines glow etc? Sometimes I love the show when it treats it's universe with reverence and Bear McCreary's score builds a genuine sense of foreboding or intrigue. Other times it's standard sci-fi schlock where the cylons stand on a rooftop and beat each other up, etc.

I'm guessing Daniel ties into Starbuck but not sure how they'll work it his being her father since I think Ellen said the amniotic fluid was tampered with.

[number8]

In terms of the first part of your response up to the term 'emotions', yes, that is the point, I was just responding to 8's comment that it's a brilliant fancy because it doesn't make sense to me that Cavill's perception as a machine would be greater than his ability to express it (i.e. any greater than that of a human's perception/inability to express it/frustration as a result). I don't see how Ellen or the five or whoever could create him that way. Essentially I don't believe that Cavill's cognitive abilities greatly outstrip his ability to express them. Perhaps I just misread 8's post and he meant that in relation to him as a machine it was a billiant fancy saddling Cavill with this particular human frustration/delusion because if anyone were to have such a frustration it would make sense for a machine to have it.

But what Cavill was saying is that his biological body doesn't have a greater perception. He's saying that if he was fully machine like the Centurions, he would be able to have greater senses--like seeing a supernova with sensors more functional than a set of eyeballs--and he wouldn't have to communicate the beauty of that supernova in something as pedestrian as speech, he would just be able to send electronic signals that describe his cognition perfectly. What he hates is that he doesn't have senses better than the five possessed by humans. I thought it was a really cool idea to have him be so frustrated by the human language. Think of it like how we would relay an image to another person. We have to describe it, and no matter how succinct we are at it, they may not be able to fully "see" it. But one computer can simply send a JPEG of the image to another.

[[ETM]]

Also, anyone thinking that Seven, or "Daniel," is

Starbuck's father?

I've been saying that he has some role to play before the end for some time now. I had him as the final Cylon myself.


Do we know anything about Starbuck's father? Has he ever even been mentioned? That would be an interesting tie-in, and explain her uncanny abilities, if she was the first of the next generation.

One of the best scenes from the series involves him:
back in season two, when Starbuck went back to Caprica and her and Helo stop at her old apartment... she puts on some music and explains it's her dad's - he was a composer.
Also, in the episodes involving her mother, it has been said that, if I recall correctly,she had met him while in the military, and that she had spent some time in an undisclosed remote outpost... I don't know if that is significant or not, but could be, and is canon. Also, her mother was always inexplicably sure Kara had a special fate...

[Qrazy]

But what Cavill was saying is that his biological body doesn't have a greater perception. He's saying that if he was fully machine like the Centurions, he would be able to have greater senses--like seeing a supernova with sensors more functional than a set of eyeballs--and he wouldn't have to communicate the beauty of that supernova in something as pedestrian as speech, he would just be able to send electronic signals that describe his cognition perfectly. What he hates is that he doesn't have senses better than the five possessed by humans. I thought it was a really cool idea to have him be so frustrated by the human language. Think of it like how we would relay an image to another person. We have to describe it, and no matter how succinct we are at it, they may not be able to fully "see" it. But one computer can simply send a JPEG of the image to another.

Ok but what I'm saying is that his frustration and envy (of the Centurions presumably) isn't rooted in anything he's experienced before. It's not as if his consciousness was ported/downgraded into a biological being. His desire to experience the world he describes is as much a fantasy as the human impulse to fly. I"m saying that such a fancy isn't all that more relevant vis a vis his being a machine because the machine which he is has always been biological in nature, even his creator was biological. It doesn't make much sense to me that he's envious of the centurions given their seemingly low intellectual capacity, poor sensory system and generally lackluster ability to communicate. My claim is basically your argument is theoretically valid but only in so far as a human or machine would idealize a more perfect existence and pine for it, on a practical level his frustration isn't borne out in the show's history. He and all the other humanoid cylons have conceivably always used the human language to communicate. On a related note how do centurions reproduce? Who led them during the first war? When did the hybrids come into the picture? What is the nature of the cylon consciousness? It seemed suggested that there were some shared experiences within model lines but then that was kind of abandoned or at least dropped for a while.

[Qrazy]

;138903']I've been saying that he has some role to play before the end for some time now. I had him as the final Cylon myself.


Hrm? Has he entered into the story before this last episode? I can't recall.

[Raiders]

Ok but what I'm saying is that his frustration and envy (of the Centurions presumably) isn't rooted in anything he's experienced before. It's not as if his consciousness was ported/downgraded into a biological being. His desire to experience the world he describes is as much a fantasy as the human impulse to fly. I"m saying that such a fancy isn't all that more relevant vis a vis his being a machine because the machine which he is has always been biological in nature, even his creator was biological. It doesn't make much sense to me that he's envious of the centurions given their seemingly low intellectual capacity, poor sensory system and generally lackluster ability to communicate. My claim is basically your argument is theoretically valid but only in so far as a human or machine would idealize a more perfect existence and pine for it, on a practical level his frustration isn't borne out in the show's history. He and all the other humanoid cylons have conceivably always used the human language to communicate.

I don't really understand your argument. He was not divinely created, but manufactured and intentionally put into a biological body. He isn't saying he wants all the properties of a Centurion, but that he is upset he was given such an existence when it seems very possible to give him more. He is upset that he was intentionally created with such limitations as opposed to being created with the most advanced technologies and means available. Why not be all he could be? Ellen's response is that humanity's "free will" and emotions, which she seems to act as a trade-off to Cavil's want for conceptual perfection, is a greater force than merely seeing a full spectrum in a beam of light. Cavil can't see the forest for the trees. He is stuck in his physical limitations without exploring the possibilities his biological creation gave to his emotional spectrum.


On a related note how do centurions reproduce?

I didn't know they did. They don't seem to really wear down, so I imagine what is there is what was built originally. Or perhaps the cylons have continued manufacturing them. Doesn't really seem important.


Who led them during the first war?

Did anyone? They can communicate with one another, so it may have simply been an uprising for a collective whole.


When did the hybrids come into the picture? What is the nature of the cylon consciousness?

I have some ideas and I think the show has given us clues but I don't know if I could answer that fully.

[number8]

Ok but what I'm saying is that his frustration and envy (of the Centurions presumably) isn't rooted in anything he's experienced before. It's not as if his consciousness was ported/downgraded into a biological being. His desire to experience the world he describes is as much a fantasy as the human impulse to fly. I"m saying that such a fancy isn't all that more relevant vis a vis his being a machine because the machine which he is has always been biological in nature, even his creator was biological. It doesn't make much sense to me that he's envious of the centurions given their seemingly low intellectual capacity, poor sensory system and generally lackluster ability to communicate. My claim is basically your argument is theoretically valid but only in so far as a human or machine would idealize a more perfect existence and pine for it, on a practical level his frustration isn't borne out in the show's history. He and all the other humanoid cylons have conceivably always used the human language to communicate. On a related note how do centurions reproduce? Who led them during the first war? When did the hybrids come into the picture? What is the nature of the cylon consciousness? It seemed suggested that there were some shared experiences within model lines but then that was kind of abandoned or at least dropped for a while.

This is true but presumably Cavill knows that the technology exists and he's just robbed of it (as Raiders said).

But even if not, remember that a big theme in the show is what makes a human "human". The ambiguity in the Cylon's biological-mechanical make-up is part of that, I think. If you are in an organic body and you function as an organic being, can you really call yourself a machine? The show keeps blurring the lines between human and Cylon, and I think Cavill's outburst could be an identity crisis for him.

[Dukefrukem]

They casted the PC guy as the brain surgeon... ha.

[Qrazy]

I don't really understand your argument. He was not divinely created, but manufactured and intentionally put into a biological body. He isn't saying he wants all the properties of a Centurion, but that he is upset he was given such an existence when it seems very possible to give him more. He is upset that he was intentionally created with such limitations as opposed to being created with the most advanced technologies and means available.

I don't see why he believes it was possible to give him more since even his creator is a biological Cylon. I don't disagree with you guys on a theoretical level about his dissatisfaction. All I'm disputing is in response to something said earlier that to me suggested his dissatisfaction was particularly warranted because he was a machine. Given the nature of his creation I don't agree that his dissatisfaction is any more warranted than any petulant human child decrying his parents lackluster genetics.


Why not be all he could be? Ellen's response is that humanity's "free will" and emotions, which she seems to act as a trade-off to Cavil's want for conceptual perfection, is a greater force than merely seeing a full spectrum in a beam of light. Cavil can't see the forest for the trees. He is stuck in his physical limitations without exploring the possibilities his biological creation gave to his emotional spectrum.

I feel like we're going in circles. Concerning the issue of free will, in the historical context of the show's own mythos do the centurions not have 'free will'? Then why/how did they rebel? Anyway, I feel like I've belabored this insignificant discrepancy enough. If you guys disagree that's fine, mythos questions such as those below interest me more.


I didn't know they did. They don't seem to really wear down, so I imagine what is there is what was built originally. Or perhaps the cylons have continued manufacturing them. Doesn't really seem important.

Well we know humans can reproduce and thereby make more soldiers for the first war. Also, one of the primary reasons the biological cylons are supposed to be persecuting the humans is to discover how to reproduce. I'm just wondering how the initial group of cylons survived the first war if their numbers were finite. Also were there other cylons than the centurions? Given the centurion level of intelligence it seems like there must have been.


Did anyone? They can communicate with one another, so it may have simply been an uprising for a collective whole.

Which implies a conscious force and/or free will for the centurions or some other entity since the final five were said to have come and created the biological models.


I have some ideas and I think the show has given us clues but I don't know if I could answer that fully.

What are your ideas about the hybrids?

[Qrazy]

This is true but presumably Cavill knows that the technology exists and he's just robbed of it (as Raiders said).

I suppose in relation to both of your posts the fact such technology exists does much to validate his position, but I don't know that the existence of such technology solidifies the final fives capacity to engineer a life form incorporating that technology.


But even if not, remember that a big theme in the show is what makes a human "human". The ambiguity in the Cylon's biological-mechanical make-up is part of that, I think. If you are in an organic body and you function as an organic being, can you really call yourself a machine? The show keeps blurring the lines between human and Cylon, and I think Cavill's outburst could be an identity crisis for him.

I buy that.

[Raiders]

Wow. That was... uneventful. I guess the show is getting all the pieces in place.

[monolith94]

There weren't any big explosions, but I wouldn't describe that as uneventful. More eventful than your average TNG episode. As someone new to the show, I enjoyed it. I really like this Tigh guy.

[number8]

Ah, yes, melodrama and people crying. This is definitely the BSG I loved back in S1.

[Raiders]

I wasn't complaining as much as I was surprised five episodes from the end that it didn't really advance the plot at all.

[EyesWideOpen]

That was my least favorite BSG episode in a long time.

[Qrazy]

There weren't any big explosions, but I wouldn't describe that as uneventful. More eventful than your average TNG episode. As someone new to the show, I enjoyed it. I really like this Tigh guy.

Yeah... you might want to watch the show from the beginning you've kind of spoiled many of the plot developments for yourself. It's quite different from TNG in that regard, there's much more of a narrative thread.

[number8]

The wife wrote this. (http://www.justpressplay.net/movies/tv/4923-battlestar-galactica-exploring-the-gaza-strip-in-space.html)

[Morris Schæffer]

This show feels like it's dying. There were a few solid moments scattered to and fro - Adama and Tigh embracing and crying at the end was semi-powerful - but my interest is beginning to wane. Urgency is at an all-time low for this series and specific matters such as should Cylons and humans coexist just don't have the pressing weight that they should.

Oh, but wait! Chief Tyrol is using black goo to fix cracks in the ship's hull. Exciting stuff!