28 Film Discussion Threads Later

[Irish]

Is not the premise of the film that David's A.I. is so advanced that he has bridged the gap between machine and man? That is to say, he wasn't feeling love just because he was programmed to, but because he actually felt love?

I would agree with your argument if David was in fact incapable of making choices and taking a driver's seat to his own story, but I disagree with that idea. I think he was very much in control and making decisions the way no machine ever had before.

He doesn't make choices because there are no real alternatives for him. (He never considers abandoning the search for his mother, and lacks the self-awareness to understand why he might want to do so.) He's incapable of feeling resentment or hostility --- in fact, he's incapable of complex human emotion at all, eg: Loving his mother because she's his mother but simultaneously hating her for abandoning him.

He's also incapable of processing grief, or adopting to new information and growing as a result. He literally cannot change.

With very little push, "A.I." becomes a horror movie. David is born emotionally stunted and no matter what he does, he will always be emotionally stunted. There is no course open to him other than the one he takes. It's almost unbearably cruel on the part of the human manufacturers to create an artificial general intelligence and a hobble it in this way. Artistically, I think you could make a remarkable movie with these constraints, but "A.I." sure as shit ain't it.

[baby doll]

Incidentally, just to clarify my use of the term hamartia, which is often translated as the hero's tragic flaw, my understanding of the concept is informed by Jean-Pierre Vernant's discussion of the term in chapter three of Myth and Tragedy in Ancient Greece (page 62):

In the language and mentality of the ancient Greeks, the concepts of knowledge and of action appear to be integrally connected. Where a modern reader expects to find a formula expressing will he instead finds one expressing knowledge. In this sense Socrates' declaration, repeated by Plato, that wrongdoing is ignorance, a lack of understanding, was not so paradoxical as it seems to us today. It is in effect a very clear extension of the most ancient ideas about misdeeds attested in the pre-legal (préjuridique) state of society, before the advent of the city-state. In this context, a misdeed, hamartēma, is seen at the same time as a "mistake" made by the mind, as a religious-defilement, and as a moral weakness. Hamartanein means to make a mistake in the strongest sense of an error of the intelligence, a blindness that entails failure. Hamartia is a mental sickness, the criminal who is prey to madness, a man who has lost his senses, a demens, hamartinoos. This madness in committing a misdeed or, to give it its Greek name, this atē or Erinus, takes over the individual from within. It penetrates him like an evil religious force. But even while to some extent it becomes identified with him, it at the same time remains separate, beyond him. The defilement of crime is contiguous and attaches itself, over and beyond the individual to his whole lineage, the whole circle of his relatives. It may affect an entire town, pollute a whole territory.

[baby doll]

He doesn't make choices because there are no real alternatives for him. (He never considers abandoning the search for his mother, and lacks the self-awareness to understand why he might want to do so.) He's incapable of feeling resentment or hostility --- in fact, he's incapable of complex human emotion at all, eg: Loving his mother because she's his mother but simultaneously hating her for abandoning him.

He's also incapable of processing grief, or adopting to new information and growing as a result. He literally cannot change.

With very little push, "A.I." becomes a horror movie. David is born emotionally stunted and no matter what he does, he will always be emotionally stunted. There is no course open to him other than the one he takes. It's almost unbearably cruel on the part of the human manufacturers to create an artificial general intelligence and a hobble it in this way. Artistically, I think you could make a remarkable movie with these constraints, but "A.I." sure as shit ain't it.

It's certainly true that David is emotionally stunted and never realizes that his mother cannot love him, but that would only be a problem if the film wanted the spectator to sympathize uncritically with David, which is plainly not the case. (His "perfect" day with his mother is less than perfect on her side: note her obvious unease when he shows her the drawings of his adventures, something David doesn't appear to notice.) Throughout the film, the spectator's emotional relationship with David is remarkably dynamic: The scene where he cuts his mother's hair is shot like a horror film, although even here he is not an object of pure horror as the film makes clear he's been tricked by his "brother," and the subsequent Flesh Fair sequence inspires a closer alignment with David by generating suspense over the possibility of his destruction.

[megladon8]

Isn't that all due to the fact that he is permanently a little boy?

He can't process these complex human emotions because he is perpetually, like, 8 years old.

I see what you're saying but I don't see it as a flaw in the film. Rather, it's kind of the point. And you're absolutely right that it becomes an emotional horror movie - and this is what appeals to me most about it.

The film is constantly punishing the viewer for daring to care about a damn robot.

[MadMan]

The CIA is largely responsible for a lot of world instability and problems. Anyways this is all a discussion for OT, not the FDT.

[Skitch]

I assume you’re referring to the new one?

All of them. Any. Take your pick.

[TGM]

[Skitch]

Me to wife who's insisting we watch remake as a family: Do you want me to tell you why I hate The Lion King, or shut up and let you enjoy it?
Wife: Let me enjoy it.
Me: Okay.
Son: Why do you hate it, dad?
Me, with intention of making wife laugh: Because the monarchy enslaves the people, the only good part is when Simba selects anarchy and true freedom, but then the film says hes a hero by rejoining the monarchy and enslavement because a dictator slipped in and he sucks more. Simba isnt a hero, hes a gentle dictator.
Wife: *nothing*
Son: Dad, hakuna matata means "No worries."
Wife: *falls off the couch laughing*

[Dukefrukem]

I've said this before, but the original is probably the most overrated animated film of all time. It's so damn boring.

This would be true if it did not have the best songs in any Disney movie ever. Automatically lifts it to the top tier.

[Dukefrukem]

Nah I just do that to troll you because you get so uppity about it. You cant handle any criticism of your capitalist utopia, because everything has worked in your favour.

Not that I want to get into this again, but aside from being a white male, what exactly has "worked in my favor" that I didn't deserve?

[Peng]

This convo, combined with Duke loving the film despite its message, somehow only confirms my feeling of Parasite's greatness lol.

[megladon8]

You're an upper middle class white male. The entire system is designed to benefit you above anyone else.

You have had significantly less barriers put in front of you than any other demographic in the nation, and in every stage and facet of life from education to work.

You then actively oppose nearly all programs designed to try to help those who have the barriers that you didn't/don't have to deal with.

It's not a matter of you not deserving what you have. It's your very singularly American attitude that compassion for others is weakness and should be frowned upon. This idea that you pay taxes, so if poor or otherwise disadvantaged people get some sort of governmental help they are basically stealing food from your plate.

Some (see: many) people were not born with the advantages you were. And in many, many cases no amount of hard work, stick-to-it-iveness or good old fashioned elbow grease will ever change their circumstances. And help is required.

This isn't socialism. This is not being a piece of shit human being, and by extension, piece of shit society.

[Skitch]

This would be true if it did not have the best songs in any Disney movie ever. Automatically lifts it to the top tier.

Not one good song, imo. Maybe hakuna matada, but they don't follow through on it...they bail on that songs theology and cash in on a power grab.

[Dukefrukem]

You're an upper middle class white male. The entire system is designed to benefit you above anyone else.

You have had significantly less barriers put in front of you than any other demographic in the nation, and in every stage and facet of life from education to work.

You then actively oppose nearly all programs designed to try to help those who have the barriers that you didn't/don't have to deal with.

It's not a matter of you not deserving what you have. It's your very singularly American attitude that compassion for others is weakness and should be frowned upon. This idea that you pay taxes, so if poor or otherwise disadvantaged people get some sort of governmental help they are basically stealing food from your plate.

Some (see: many) people were not born with the advantages you were. And in many, many cases no amount of hard work, stick-to-it-iveness or good old fashioned elbow grease will ever change their circumstances. And help is required.

This isn't socialism. This is not being a piece of shit human being, and by extension, piece of shit society.

Taking the "white" out of it, being a middle class dude you couldn't be more wrong that it benefits ME over everyone else. I get no tax breaks, I get no affirmative action, no student loan forgiveness, no first time home-buyers credit, no low income housing option, no government assistance whatsoever.... Everyone below the bubble gets help and everyone rich enough to make a living on their compounded interest continues to be richer. I'm right in the middle where I see everyone else benefiting from something, and here I am, a white dude just paying my way through life...

Remind me again what program I oppose that continues the piece of shit society that ironically is the best country on the planet? If it's free healthcare you can stop there.

[Dukefrukem]

Not one good song, imo. Maybe hakuna matada, but they don't follow through on it...they bail on that songs theology and cash in on a power grab.

Circle of Life
Can't Wait to be King
Morning Report
Be Prepared
Can You Feel the Love Tonight

Top Top Tier

And this

[megladon8]

I don't even know where to begin with your post. The amount of ignorance on display is astounding. For someone who has liberally used the term "snowflakes" when referring to leftists, you sure have thin skin when your precious America is criticized.

People like you are the reason the rest of the world thinks America is a dumpster fire.

Tell you what, if you find my criticism of "the greatest country on the planet" so bothersome, just ban me.

[Dukefrukem]

I remember using the word "snowflakes" but as you say, I was just trolling you.

I just want you to answer my question.

And why would I ban you??

Edit: even if I could I wouldn't. I dont have that permission, as I've said a billion times here. My admin rights begin and end with changing thread titles and moving them.

[Skitch]

Circle of Life
Can't Wait to be King
Morning Report
Be Prepared
Can You Feel the Love Tonight

Circle Of "This Is How We Work Things To Remain In Control"
I Just Can't Wait To Rule Over Lesser Beings
List Of Things I'm Going To Eat Because I Rule
Use The Weak To Attain Power
Isn't Life Amazing When You Control Everything?

[Dukefrukem]

Circle Of "This Is How We Work Things To Remain In Control"
I Just Can't Wait To Rule Over Lesser Beings
List Of Things I'm Going To Eat Because I Rule
Use The Weak To Attain Power
Isn't Life Amazing When You Control Everything?

I dont understand this post.

[Skitch]

I dont understand this post.

I want to be very clear (because of the amount of side-bar political conversation in the thread lately), in no way whatsoever is what I'm about to say pointed at you, just my thoughts.

In general, I feel the adage that (shorthand) "money and power don't bring happiness" is usually put out there by people that have never been broke and powerless.

[Skitch]

In other words, while Simba is frolicking around being all curious if others can Feel The Love Tonight, the majority of the rest of the characters are too busy wondering if hes gonna select them for food tomorrow.

[Grouchy]

That you don't spend $100-140 million dollars of Hollywood studio money and hire A-list talent to express the personal. That these films are tailor made for a mass audience and that Kubrick and Spielberg care very much about audience reaction during every step of their productions. That the end product reflect their interests and sensibilities shouldn't be a surprise because it is a natural outcome of creative work, and while specific sensibilities will make a work unique they don't necessarily make it personal.

You guys are talking about these movies as if they are haute couture and made for a narrow audience, as if Spielberg is Rei Kawakubo and Dreamworks is Commes Des Garcons. But he isn't and it's not. Spielberg doesn't create for the runway crowd. He creates for Walwart shoppers. There isn't anything wrong with that, especially when you're as good at it as he is.

I really don't understand this comparison. There are some cult filmmakers that could be compared to haute couture, I guess, but first of all, they also care about audience reaction, and second, you're acting like... that's a good thing? I don't know, I'd rather dress with a Wrangler pair of jeans. Anyway, it's clear now why you don't understand even the basic plot of A.I. - you completely underestimate it and the people behind their creation.

I think your point of view here is weird as hell but rather unique, and I'd like to see you stick to it in the future, so whenever we discuss any movie that has been made with any expectation of profit in mind, I'd argue that it can't be expressing a sincere point of view and its creators cannot be considered as saying something worthwhile.

If this were true, then both novel and film would be deathly dull. Luckily, there's an arc to Jack Torrance's character. He makes choices and those choices change him over the course of the story.

That is indeed true, and The Shining is far from dull! There is an arc to Jack Torrance, yet it implies that he's not in complete control of his actions all the time. This is similar to the dichotomy you're having trouble with regarding science fiction that deals with artificial intelligence in general.

Meanwhile, David is the same kid at the end of "A.I." as he was at the beginning. His needs and wants never change. You could tell him a 1,000 times that his mother doesn't love him, that she's never coming back, or that she's in fact dead and it would make no difference to him, and it's why I marveled that you still consider yourself a fan of the genre while being uninterested in the questions it raises.

This also one of the reasons why I don't think the film works, and that it almost approaches an experimental, audience-hostile, anti-narrative, because it attempts to be a narrative drama in which the protagonist doesn't change (If it has fully embraced this aspect, it would have been a much more interesting movie.)

This is clearly not true, though. David does have a narrative arc and he evolves much like any other protagonist. We can even argue that his grasp on humanity by the end of the film verges on unrealistic. The peculiar aspect is that one of the themes of the movie being programming, there is always an ambiguity as to whether his feelings are worthy of consideration.

[Grouchy]

Remind me again what program I oppose that continues the piece of shit society that ironically is the best country on the planet? If it's free healthcare you can stop there.

I've been to the US more than once and I know people who live there, both immigrants and born... As far as living conditions go, it's not even the best country I've visited. I mean, like you say, it doesn't even have proper health care. I can understand how you could feel that way because of sentimental and patriotic reasons... but it's very difficult to take this statement seriously.

[Grouchy]

Me, with intention of making wife laugh: Because the monarchy enslaves the people, the only good part is when Simba selects anarchy and true freedom, but then the film says hes a hero by rejoining the monarchy and enslavement because a dictator slipped in and he sucks more. Simba isnt a hero, hes a gentle dictator.

Wow, my ex girlfriend hated The Lion King for pretty much these exact same reasons.

[Dukefrukem]

Me, with intention of making wife laugh: Because the monarchy enslaves the people, the only good part is when Simba selects anarchy and true freedom, but then the film says hes a hero by rejoining the monarchy and enslavement because a dictator slipped in and he sucks more. Simba isnt a hero, hes a gentle dictator.

This is a wrongful interpenetration for 1) Simba doesn't "select" anything and 2) The message about "everything the light touches" falls under the "delicate balance of circle of life" act as bookends to otherwise very simple and ideological way of living. The villain, scar, decides to ignore these rules which is what causes the chaos. The morning report also touches on this.