Captain America: Civil War (Anthony Russo, Joe Russo)

[Morris Schæffer]

This is your ranking Duke. My red number is mine. Probably.

1. Captain America: Civil War 3
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier 2
3. The Avengers 1
4. Avengers: Age of Ultron 7
5. Guardians of the Galaxy 6
6. Ant-Man (will probably drop to 6 after it sinks in) 4
7. Iron Man 10
8. Iron Man 3 9
9. Thor 12
10. Captain America: The First Avenger 5
11. The Incredible Hulk 8
12. Iron Man 2 11
13. Thor: The Dark World 13

[Dukefrukem]

I thought the close combat was decent like that staircase fight. Still quite inferior to a very similar fight in Daredevil season 2.

100% disagree. Daredevil fight felt very standardly choreographed. Ho hum.

The staircase fight, although was very heavily edited, was paced so quick, and had so many things I had never seen before in a fight, that it absolutely blew me out of the water.

[Dukefrukem]

This is your ranking Duke. My red number is mine. Probably.

1. Captain America: Civil War 3
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier 2
3. The Avengers 1
4. Avengers: Age of Ultron 7
5. Guardians of the Galaxy 6
6. Ant-Man (will probably drop to 6 after it sinks in) 4
7. Iron Man 10
8. Iron Man 3 9
9. Thor 12
10. Captain America: The First Avenger 5
11. The Incredible Hulk 8
12. Iron Man 2 11
13. Thor: The Dark World 13

So that list was a copy/paste from the Ant-Man thread.

I forgot that I had moved things around after. This is the updated list.

1. Captain America: Civil War 3
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier 2
3. The Avengers 1
4. Guardians of the Galaxy 6
5. Ant-Man 4
6. Avengers: Age of Ultron 7
7. Iron Man 10
8. Iron Man 3 9
9. Thor 12
10. Captain America: The First Avenger 5
11. The Incredible Hulk 8
12. Iron Man 2 11
13. Thor: The Dark World 13[/QUOTE]

[Morris Schæffer]

100% disagree. Daredevil fight felt very standardly choreographed. Ho hum.

The staircase fight, although was very heavily edited, was paced so quick, and had so many things I had never seen before in a fight, that it absolutely blew me out of the water.

It was indeed more intricate in CA: CV which may have made it more challenging to get right. They certainly didn't fuck it up. It's just that in Daredevil every punch and kick and tumble felt way more painful and impactful. True, it's a hardcore R rated show whereas CA:CW is not which means I'm not being entirely fair I suppose, but people in the Marvel movies just keep getting up as if nothing's happened. The finale was a lot better in that regard. One of the guys looked like he was hurtin'.

[transmogrifier]

Great:

Good:

Guardians of the Galaxy
Iron Man 3
Deadpool
Antman
The Avengers
Captain America: Winter Soldier

Okay:
Captain America: The First Avenger

Meh:
Iron Man
Captain America: Civil War
Iron Man 2
The Avengers 2
The Incredible Hulk

Bad:
Thor

[Dukefrukem]

Why is Deadpool on your list? Just for perspective? I'm surprised you have Iron Man 2 in the Meh and not Bad camp.

[Dukefrukem]

Regarding Crossbones: [

Show Spoiler

You thought Cap was in any actual danger of being killed by the character who delivered the blow in the comic of this movie's namesake?!! Hahaha, yeah OK! Nah, he'll be killed in the first 15 minutes as a red herring and a not-entirely-necessary catalyst for the movies other events. I mean, New York, D.C. and Sokovia are still there to pull from, and Vienna would've still followed (even if the T'Challa elements him and his father were there because of the explosion being in Lagos, but again, I didn't think Panther was all that necessary here either). If Grillo's Crossbones had been somehow integrated with Zemo's storyline, whether or not it resulted in a major hero death, much more tension could've kept going.

]

Been thinking about this and I agree. I think not only would create better stakes, but also would have more of an emotional attachment if say: [

Show Spoiler

Warmachine Died

]- There were audible gasps in my theater [

Show Spoiler

as he hit the ground

].

[

Show Spoiler

A teamup of Zemo and Crossbones would have been well suited, especially since it's obvious Zemo is the mastermind and Crossbones is the grunt. Why not make Zemo part of Hydra? I dont understand this non-move.

]

[TGM]

Mind you, I'm not dead set on the placement of the top 2 just yet, as they very easily could be swapped with one another, but otherwise...

Outstanding
Captain America: Civil War
Guardians of the Galaxy

Great
Iron Man 3
The Avengers

Good
Thor: The Dark World
Captain America: The First Avenger
Iron Man

Okay
The Incredible Hulk
Thor
Avengers: Age of Ultron

Meh
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Ant-Man

Bad
Iron Man 2

[TGM]

Completely irrelevant note, but it's become increasingly impossible to predict what opening night crowd turnout will look like in my town anymore. For instance, Deadpool and Batman v Superman? Almost complete sell outs. However, Star Wars and now Civil War last night? Yeah, the theater wasn't even 1/3 full. :\

[Morris Schæffer]

How does someone put Winter Soldier at meh and civil war at the top tier of Marvel movies? I'm not deriding you, I'm sure you have your reasons, but I honestly don't get that.

[TGM]

How does someone put Winter Soldier at meh and civil war at the top tier of Marvel movies? I'm not deriding you, I'm sure you have your reasons, but I honestly don't get that.

Civil War corrected most of the issues I had with Winter Soldier, and was just an overall much more solid and far more satisfying an experience. The writing was better, the pacing was better, the action was significantly improved upon, and as I mentioned in my previous post, unlike most Marvel flicks, Civil War actually has a strong emotional element that propels it above all the rest as well.

[transmogrifier]

The writing was better, the pacing was better, the action was significantly improved upon, and as I mentioned in my previous post, unlike most Marvel flicks, Civil War actually has a strong emotional element that propels it above all the rest as well.

I disagree with every single one of those points.

And with that, my discussion of Civil War comes to an end.

[number8]

This might be the most serialized and least standalone entry out of all these Marvel movies so far. The entire thing plays like the second act of a larger movie. You had to know all the setups going in, and it ends right as they've finally ratcheted up the stakes. It's paced well, but very awkwardly structured. I also found Spider-Man's inclusion really shoehorned (thankfully not the case with Black Panther). I think it was a mistake making this a Civil War movie with all these Avengers arbitrarily involved. The way the story unfolds, it really would have been much more effective if it had been a revenge story between Cap and Iron Man only.

The shield throwing in this movie is fucking on point, though.

[Milky Joe]

Yeah, it wasn't really much of a war, was it? More like a civil skirmish.

As a pulse-pounding action movie, I thought it was awesome. Great momentum from the start, excellent fighting, funny in the right places, et cetera. But it didn't have anywhere close to the epic stakes of Winter Soldier or the other really good MCU films. There were no world-colliding conflagrations, no cities falling from the sky. It was just two dudes beefin'. I'm cool with that.

Bring on Doctor Strange.

[megladon8]

I read that apparently the John Wick dudes worked on some of the action here. Does it show?

[Morris Schæffer]

I read that apparently the John Wick dudes worked on some of the action here. Does it show?

Ha. I noticed their names in the end credits. I'm not sure it shows other than that the action is really good!

[Dukefrukem]

I keep thinking about that Hallway escape/fight. Such a great blend of action and humor.

[number8]

My previous post reads like I didn't like the movie. I did, just not as much as Winter Soldier. Here are 3 things I really, really loved, though:

1. The shield throwing. I mentioned this already. But that opening in Lagos. That whole sequence just made this Cap fanboy melt.

2. The use of Bucky in this premise. I still think the Civil War elements are undercooked and rather forgotten quickly, but if we're to buy into it as it's set up here, they didn't give Cap enough convincing arguments for his perspective versus Tony's, who is given so much emotional motive (certainly more than the comic it's based on did). So having the Bucky story really helps level the argument, and it's relatively subtle too, because I don't remember them directly commenting on the fact that Winter Soldier and his Soviet-programmed brain is precisely why Cap thinks it's a bad idea to have super-powered people working for a government. They just kinda leave you to it. They also didn't verbally confront Tony with the weight of the fact that his parents were murdered because of the very thing he was similarly pushing for, but you see that realization dawning on him.

3. The use of that famous speech but more importantly the way they used it. I love the speech, but there's an entire context behind it in the actual issue involving Peter Parker's doubt and a Mark Twain anecdote that gets lost when you're just seeing that part floating around the internet. By itself, it does make Cap sound like an unthinking fundamentalist, and if he says it in the movie, you risk that perception for the character. The way the movie adapts it is brilliant, by making it about Peggy Carter talking about being a woman in a man's world. The lesson is still there, but the context is immensely better. That funeral scene is one of my favorite examples of preserving the core of adapting a text while changing it entirely.

[Henry Gale]

2. The use of Bucky in this premise. I still think the Civil War elements are undercooked and rather forgotten quickly, but if we're to buy into it as it's set up here, they didn't give Cap enough convincing arguments for his perspective versus Tony's, who is given so much emotional motive (certainly more than the comic it's based on did). So having the Bucky story really helps level the argument, and it's relatively subtle too, because I don't remember them directly commenting on the fact that Winter Soldier and his Soviet-programmed brain is precisely why Cap thinks it's a bad idea to have super-powered people working for a government. They just kinda leave you to it. They also didn't verbally confront Tony with the weight of the fact that his parents were murdered because of the very thing he was similarly pushing for, but you see that realization dawning on him.

See, this is an element I really wish the film leaned heavier on. It's one of those ideas that didn't really cross my mind until well after it ended, and you articulated even more perfectly here. So much juicy there that it doesn't squeeze for all it's worth. However on-the-nose it might've been to simply spell out in dialogue, I'm not sure I go to these movies for their subtlety.

Similarly, I think the ending moves so fast after Steve drops the shield that it's tough for the weight of everything that's happened to properly sink in and feed into Zemo's final statement of satisfaction. We hear Steve's hand-extending message to Tony, see him break out the remainder of the team without his Cap garb, and then we instantly get the "Directed by.." credit. But Rogers' act of prison breaking is played pretty upliftingly, and the fact that those team members are now essentially among the world's most wanted who can't even show their faces to the public anymore, let alone be there to protect it; that almost doesn't emotionally play like it should in the moment.

Maybe it's just a personal taste thing, but I really wanted to feel the anguish and the hopelessness of the current situation instead of having it all quickly wrapping up and then thinking "Oh no, what's next for them?!"... instantly remembering the next time we'd see the majority of these characters would be in a movie with "Avengers" in its title anyway.

I even wish there had been one more scene with Stark speaking with Ross about the Sokovia Accords at the end since it's such a major plot thread that might not get addressed ever again. Something (anything) along the lines of not having to worry about the other Avengers signing it if the Avengers are essentially no more. Plus it'd give one more chance to really zero in on the conflicted emotions of that reality for Stark, now left alone, with his emotionally broken, post-traumatic state, having let the event we see him think he's made something close to peace with at the beginning -- the death of his parents left, the hole that's left, and him doing everything in his technological and monetary power to try to make amends with it-- be the same thing that came back to distance him from everyone else (except Rhodey and Spidey, I guess) and leave him even more alone. Now that's a haunting lingering note for the movie to go out on with him.

[Morris Schæffer]

http://www.empireonline.com/movies/f...l-war-secrets/

12 secrets from the movie.

[Wryan]

I had a blast, though I agree WS was better overall. This feels frenetic occasionally to its detriment. Lots of bodies and limbs flying through the air (not always entirely convincingly rendered) and lots of bombs going off. Loved Spiderman/liked Holland. Loved Black Panther/loved Boseman. Better Avengers movie than Ultron, for sure. Feels a bit overstuffed with business. Got a good laugh out of Cleveland getting such a big title card with other fine international cities. That double smile in the car, though cliched, was executed flawlessly and got a big response. Some people's motivations for picking a side seemed flimsy or too lightly drawn.

I really like the Steve/Bucky dynamic, so I'm probably more forgiving than if I didn't.

EDIT: Also, a delicious little role for Alfre Woodard, the kind of thing she can knock out of the park with ease. Also also, T'Challa's father was the guide dude from The Ghost and the Darkness. I knew I knew him from somewhere. Damn, this thing was just packed with acting talent.

[number8]

Speaking of cities, I assume this didn't happen anywhere else, but my crowd went crazy for the "Where you from, kid?" "Queens." "Brooklyn." exchange. It probably got a bigger cheer than anything else in the movie. That put a huge smile on my face.

[Dukefrukem]

Speaking of cities, I assume this didn't happen anywhere else, but my crowd went crazy for the "Where you from, kid?" "Queens." "Brooklyn." exchange. It probably got a bigger cheer than anything else in the movie. That put a huge smile on my face.

Biggest cheer in my theater was Spider-man.

2nd biggest audible gasp was when [

Show Spoiler

War-machine hit the ground

]. My father was even like..."Oh my god". I'm thinking to myself, "wow, it took 12 movies for him to get into it." Heh.

[Milky Joe]

I wanna know what Hank Pym thinks about Lang teaming up with the Avengers. Look where it got him!

[number8]

"Hank Pym always said you can never trust a Stark."
"Who are you?"
"Come on, man."