Captain America: Civil War (Anthony Russo, Joe Russo)

[Peng]

[Peng]

Non spoilery, and apologize in advance if it sounds too hyperbolic or something; I'm still off a bit of an exhilarated high from the film:

Apart from a motif of people getting their arms cut off throughout Phase 2, Marvel doubles down on The Empire Strikes Back reference by having a character cheekily mention that film by name during Civil War. But it earned that namedrop, in term of turning the story darker and more ambitious than any preceding Marvel film so far (save for maybe Age of Ultron) and shaking up the franchise a bit.

It might miss Whedon's touch of deeply interrogating/humanizing these characters, but it almost has to, and should, abandon that anyway in the context of this story. Whedon's two films explore the avengers' relationship to the outside world mostly grounded in their points of view, while this one lets many external forces seep in and question them quite a bit more. So being a franchise helps in this regard; they don't need to grow much here because the films feels like the culmination of various arcs and storylines, and how the characters as they are right now react to the issues brought up and forces threatening their standings.

Still, that will only be meaningful if the characters are well-established when facing this conflict. And this is a wonderful balance act; most characters get a chance to state and question themselves in this thorny matter; new characters are introduced and develop interactions with our main ones splendidly. The directors really allocate time and manage one's power in relation to each other really well. If nothing else, this can be viewed as the Russos' successful dry run for juggling a big cast, which will grow enormous in Infinity War.

But it feels more than something else to me as it races towards the endgame. The Russos still have a bit of trouble with close-quarter fights, as evidenced in the opening mission (I have felt since Winter Soldier that they thrive when they step back and need to use the screen's scale a bit). But the characters increasingly become the priority as the film goes along, and the directors seem to stage their fights clearer with much more impact accordingly.

As fun and exciting as the superhero mash-ups start out, once the focus becomes narrower, the fight takes on a(n even) darker, more emotional turn, truly testing our feeling to each side. And that's the film's biggest accomplishment for me: it builds and develop this 'war' organically. We don't want them to fight this fiercely, but knowing them, they can't avoid it. We don't want them to get too emotionally invested, but given the circumstances, they must. For all their faults, the MCU films have always remained absolutely true to their characters and their development, and Civil War has the biggest dividend to date from this approach.

[Peng]

Ranking time! I have rewatched all of them over the past month, so some might notice that it's different from what I ranked in Ant-Man thread, where I had felt that film was my least favorite MCU film:

Captain America: Civil War (2016) - 8.5/10
The Avengers (2012) - 8.5/10
Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015) - 8/10
Guardians of the Galaxy (2014) - 8/10
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014) - 7.5/10
Thor (2011) - 7.5/10
Iron Man 3 (2013) - 7.5/10
Iron Man (2008) - 7.5/10
Captain America: The First Avenger (2011) - 7/10
Iron Man 2 (2010) - 6.5/10
Ant-Man (2015) - 6/10
The Incredible Hulk (2008) - 6/10
Thor: The Dark World (2013) - 5.5/10

[Dukefrukem]

Great write up.

And your rankings look fine to me especially with the top 2 and bottom 2.

[Henry Gale]

Damn, I really don't want to get unrealistically excited for this, but your thoughts (even when mentioning issues like Russo's often close-up-ridden action and this movie's opening fight, which from the clip I saw left me with exactly the same worry) on top of everyone else's exuberant praise have me hearing pretty much exactly what I want to, and left really happy that I already secured my Thursday night tickets. I just wish it was opening this weekend here like most of the rest of the world.

Even your rankings are pretty hard to argue with, even when they might not fall exactly the same as mine. Like, as much as the last Cap might be higher for you overall, you basically have with the same rating I do, so I feel like we're generally on the same page, just maybe I like some of the other movies more. Guardians is my #1 overall, but otherwise same top 6! (Minus my current unseen Civil War.) I'd probably only knock First Avenger and Incredible Hulk down a couple points each because they just never really worked for me (especially the dull, inconsequential latter that has recently has led me to defending Ang Lee's to people more often than I really have the energy for) and add +1 to Iron Man 2, Ant-Man and even Thor: The Dark World because I'm charitable like that.

[Peng]

Just have time to return to this thread, and to counter off maybe raising too much expectation, I will raise up a few things that don't let me love it fully, ha.

- I do think it's my favorite Marvel in term of story (maybe Age of Ultron can rival if the running time doesn't require it to feel so rushed), but as you can see me giving it the same score as the first Avengers, I still miss Whedon's lively touch in dealing with multiple characters (I think I also prefer Gunn's), and wish it have a few more intimate character details.

- And as much as I liked Winter Soldier, the Russos' relatively grounded, almost serious style can tread the line on being dull for me at times. They're lucky that the story of Civil War is a match in gravitas for that tone, so it mostly works.

- OK, this might be veering into nitpicking and personal territory, since his screen time is on the thin, supporting side, but I was disappointed a bit with The Vision. As conceived in Age of Ultron (I didn't read the comics), he felt like a distinctly Whedon-esque creation of all the director's usual philosophical musings. I was really taken with that. I realize that couldn't translate well when handed off to another filmmaker, and we can chalk the change up to him spending time among the humans between Age of Ultron and Civil War, but here he feels a bit too... acclimated...for my taste, although by no means less strange.


Two final notes to leave off before waiting for US release so I can discuss it with you guys:
- Now looking forward to the Black Panther film the most in Phase 3, mostly on the strength of Chadwick Boseman's immense presence.
- To me, Robert Downey Jr. gives his MCU-best performance here. (Iron Man 3 is a more well-rounded showcase, but this lets him have some really meatier stuff to play off).

[Morris Schæffer]

I have seen it also. It should come as no surprise that it is a hugely satisfying crowdpleaser. It's very funny and that extends to the action scenes also which are funny, exuberant and at times utterly ingenious. No, pulse-pounding isn't really the right word I suppose, but what Marvel movie is?

I think the film has a small-ish problem regarding its conflict and that is that I couldn't quite buy one side of the conflict. Won't say whose. Therefore, I felt it was less about ideoglogy and more about "Hey I'm just gonna be stubborn cuz we're supposed to fight each other!!"

There are times when the conflict seems to reach a fever pitch, you can sense immense darkness creeping up on the principal players, enveloping them, but I don't think the film truly follows through with that.

Especially dissapointing given the immense revelation disclosed towards the finale, which was a great scene, uncharacteristically so for a Marvel film.

Think of a schoolyard fight that erupted because of something really trivial, but you were young and so you fought. Then, at the end, you're both grounded, the teacher or principal asks you to shake hands and hey it's all cool. Well, almost.

No, rest easy that Civil War isn't quite like that, but it does make the title sound a little pompous, a little overcooked. The film seems determined to not become The Empire Strikes Back of Marvel movies and I'm seeing this as a missed opportunity. I felt they should have taken it further.

Really though, these are my expectations. I shall forever be waiting for The Dark Knight of the Marvel universe. I would still say go in with confidence and see probably one of the most fun films of the years.

[Morris Schæffer]

At one point Steve is called away from a massively important discussion and the abrupt, no-nonsense way in which he does that, coupled with the actual reason for him leaving may be the most powerful moment of the entire movie.

[transmogrifier]

Long, predictable, and curiously low stakes for what is supposed to be such a gut-punching storyline. Just stuffed with things and people and big speeches about boring things, it unsuccessfully tries to marry the light ensemble comedy of the Avengers movies with the more serious-minded Cap films, and it just comes out the other side as a lumpy heap of Things That Happen.

[transmogrifier]

At one point Steve is called away from a massively important discussion and the abrupt, no-nonsense way in which he does that, coupled with the actual reason for him leaving may be the most powerful moment of the entire movie.

I don't get this; it's how a million previous action films have transitioned in and out of scenes. And it's a rather perfunctory end to an important character (to Cap) to be made into An Import Incident that drives the plot along.

The only spark of life is when Spider-Man and Antman are on hand.

[Morris Schæffer]

I don't get this; it's how a million previous action films have transitioned in and out of scenes. And it's a rather perfunctory end to an important character (to Cap) to be made into An Import Incident that drives the plot along.

The only spark of life is when Spider-Man and Antman are on hand.

[

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there's a history there between both characters that spans decades, a bond steve could never have with any of the other characters. It's not about the transition, but the way it occurs that moved me. And i'm currently watching agent carter season 2 so i totally did not see this small-scale drama coming amidst all the big issues and action scenes. And i like peggy and hayley atwell sooo much. She's gorgeous, vital, energetic and now she was gone. So i would not call it perfunctory. It came out of nowhere, but sadly enough, that's how someone's passing away often occurs.

]

[transmogrifier]

Another thing that increasingly annoys me about these movies: The Scarlet Witch and The Vision. Or more precisely, how they are used as convenient within-battle deus ex machina interventions when someone is in trouble, and then disappearing from the battle for a while, despite being the two most powerful characters by far.

[Morris Schæffer]

Another thing that increasingly annoys me about these movies: The Scarlet Witch and The Vision. Or more precisely, how they are used as convenient within-battle deus ex machina interventions when someone is in trouble, and then disappearing from the battle for a while, despite being the two most powerful characters by far.

Nearly all reviews seem to be saying that one of the film's strenghts is that despite the overload of characters, the directors and writers have done a bang-up job juggling them and giving each their memorable time in the spotlight. Perhaps that's your answer. The only way for this to have worked is for some characters to literally dissapear for a while.

[Dukefrukem]

My favorite comic book movie of all time. May be the best action movie I've ever seen.

The airport scene, just perfect.

Starts off remarkably slow. Every scene with Spider-man re-energized me.

The[

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Bucky Killed Stark Sr

] felt a little bit forced and reminded me of the Sandman/Spider-man conflict.

[Dukefrukem]

1. Captain America: Civil War
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3. The Avengers
4. Guardians of the Galaxy
5. Ant-Man
6. Avengers: Age of Ultron
7. Iron Man
8. Iron Man 3
9. Thor
10. Captain America: The First Avenger
11. The Incredible Hulk
12. Iron Man 2
13. Thor: The Dark World

[Dukefrukem]

It's unbelievable to me how many fight scenes were in the trailer, and how many fight scenes remain hidden until the movie. There was so much more to gawk over. Total opposite of Batman v Superman.

[Henry Gale]

It is really good, in the sense that it very compellingly does the things that are to the expected and then moves ahead to do exactly the new things it promises to too (at least, within reason / lack of major consequences). And when it ends, I couldn't help but feel like, "Oh, I guess that's it." despite having mildly loved everything that it delivered before that.

There is no element (and there are many) that stands out as not working or holding up its ends of the bargain here, it's just that I'm left wishing they were a part of a new formula, particularly one that isn't so content with keeping itself at something of a storytelling status quo. The needle moves, but then it falls right back. And that's not to say my heart didn't pump with it almost every step of the way, it's just that it became somewhat deflating when I realized that its third act would ultimately go exactly the way it did, particularly with the movie's "big twist" [

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The curse of superhero mommy issues continue!

] I mean, Boseman is very solid in a role that if it weren't for his family ties could've been swapped out for any other already-developed character. Holland's Peter Parker and Spider-Man are totally charming and amiable and exciting and his presence lifts the movie's energy for a while aaaaand why does he actually need to be here again? Oh right, his own movie comes out next year, which Tony will also be a part of.

Again, I do want to stress that I do really like the movie. It has more interesting thematic ideas and executed pathos than arguably anything else they've done, and the action (when it's not terribly closely shot or overly cut) is awesome throughout, and I was particularly absolutely enraptured by it for the first third or so, emotionally on edge with it and even choked up at least once, but after that point it starts to stray off more into individual threads that thin out both in their necessity and stakes, so by the time they come back together they don't feel like they'll actually result in anything that'll pay off the sort of danger of real, foundational change for the series it provides the possibility for in your imagination for the storytelling. Maybe it's just Markus & McFeely's approach to writing endings, as all three of their Captain America movies have ended with a shrug. (Less so each time, but still.)

Regarding Crossbones: [

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You thought Cap was in any actual danger of being killed by the character who delivered the blow in the comic of this movie's namesake?!! Hahaha, yeah OK! Nah, he'll be killed in the first 15 minutes as a red herring and a not-entirely-necessary catalyst for the movies other events. I mean, New York, D.C. and Sokovia are still there to pull from, and Vienna would've still followed (even if the T'Challa elements him and his father were there because of the explosion being in Lagos, but again, I didn't think Panther was all that necessary here either). If Grillo's Crossbones had been somehow integrated with Zemo's storyline, whether or not it resulted in a major hero death, much more tension could've kept going.

]

Anyway, it's as good as these movies have ever been.** I'm just not sure if that's enough anymore. But as a series, they're like the Iron Man suit, they might look a little different, have a few more features, go through some serious wear and tear, but at the end of the day, there will be a new, shinier one the next time around. Nothing to worry about. And I don't worry about Marvel Studios' output staying at this level either, but are consistent 7 to 8 out of 10's all that exciting after a while if it feels like they'll never go any higher?

**Aside from Guardians, which still remains my #1 here. Even if it draws within similar lines, it does so with enough different colours and tools to stand on its own.)

See it, enjoy it, because it's easy to do both, just don't expect it to change your life in any major way, or anyone's on-screen for that matter.

[transmogrifier]

My favorite comic book movie of all time. May be the best action movie I've ever seen.
.

We saw different movies. To me, the action scenes were clumsy and poorly staged. The airport scene was totally stakes free seeing as it kept on reminding the audience that they weren't "really" fighting for keeps. The whole friendly fire thing was even more of a cop out.

I was actively bored by a lot of it. And I thought Winter Soldier was very good.

[TGM]

Okay, I wasn't a fan of The Winter Soldier, or the past number of Marvel releases for that matter, so I went in with reserved expectations. However, I gotta say, the Russos won me over completely with this one. Captain America: Civil War was absolutely fantastic!! Quite possibly the best Marvel outing yet. Despite everything that's going on, it's completely coherent, the ensemble is very well balanced, and there's no extraneous plots or scenes to be seen.

And while I'm sure many will cite the airport battle with all the heroes fighting one another as the highlight (and it's certainly one of the more fun action sequences we've had), I personally think that the final encounter of Iron Man vs. Cap and the Winter Soldier is the series' best yet. The sheer raw emotion on display in that fight is off the charts! And that's part of what really makes this one work and elevates it so high up above the rest, much like Guardians of the Galaxy, Civil War is a very emotional experience. I just loved this thing, and it was pretty damn perfect all around. In fact, my one single nitpick would be the odd choice to use comically large text as a means to signify where they are, which honestly did take me out of the movie each time and felt unnecessary. But again, what a huge nitpick that is to an otherwise pretty much flawless movie.

[

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Okay, I am also curious as to exactly how Tony figured out Spider-Man's secret identity, and that question was bugging me during their entire introductory scene, but still, not that huge a deal!

]

So yeah, this one was a huge win for me, and I now suddenly feel very confident with the Russos at the helm going into the next Avengers movies. And on another note, I just gotta say that after Civil War, DC has gotta feel absolutely ashamed for what they did with Batman v Superman, and I say that even as someone who liked that movie! [

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Though it is interesting how our heroes' mothers played a significant role in both flicks, in BvS acting as the thing that brought them together, but here acting as the trigger than almost completely pulls them apart. Huh. :P

]

[Morris Schæffer]

My favorite comic book movie of all time. May be the best action movie I've ever seen.

As per your second sentence, That's a huuuuge claim mere days after making fun of davis and his blanket statements.

like Trans has said, I don't think the stakes feel high enough to justify the destruction of half an airport. There are a lot of great action movies out there, and most of them are grounded in reality. It makes it easier to care for me when you've got a lone cop fighting off a dozen "who-said-we-were-terrorists" because it's more relatable, it's a more human story. With this sort of property, the screen becomes ablaze with explosions, laser beams, missiles, debris, quips that it threatens, and actually sort of does, divert our attention away from the actual reason why they're battlin' each other in the first place. That said, I can get behind best action scene in a comicbook movie ever. Because it really is very good, as I said a few days ago.

[Watashi]

I came into the movie being on Team Cap. I left the movie being on Team Aunt May.

[Dukefrukem]

As per your second sentence, That's a huuuuge claim mere days after making fun of davis and his blanket statements.

like Trans has said, I don't think the stakes feel high enough to justify the destruction of half an airport. There are a lot of great action movies out there, and most of them are grounded in reality. It makes it easier to care for me when you've got a lone cop fighting off a dozen "who-said-we-were-terrorists" because it's more relatable, it's a more human story. With this sort of property, the screen becomes ablaze with explosions, laser beams, missiles, debris, quips that it threatens, and actually sort of does, divert our attention away from the actual reason why they're battlin' each other in the first place. That said, I can get behind best action scene in a comicbook movie ever. Because it really is very good, as I said a few days ago.

I'm not so sure it is. There's so much going on in some of these fight scenes that it's hard to put into words. Even the quick fights, like when Bucky get's activated: You have four different styles of fighters, Tony, Agent 13, Panther and Widow, all well balanced and relentless; and that's just one of the small battles. The Russo's just GET close combat action and it looks gorgeous on screen. I can't remember the last time I was WOWed by fight scenes like this. Maybe the RAID?

[Dukefrukem]

Another thing i just noticed, which may or may not be such a shock to everyone.

[

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Cap won! Opposite outcome in the comics. I realize it's a Cap movie, but I was half expecting Cap to kinda realize the the ways of Tony here. I guess it would be hard to bring this movie to closure if Tony won but... I really liked the finale battle/wrap there.

]

Also, William Hurt underused. Was hoping he would find some of the super soldier serum or something.

[Peng]

Watched this a second time because my father wanted to go. Feeling the emotional weight more acutely throughout this time, although still the same reaction to its directors: I wish they would be more distinctive visually. Great traffic conductor, less so on memorable directorial flows. They did the airport scene great in term of pure rush though (although having more touches -- something like Whedon's 'splash-page' long take -- would make it an unquestionable all-timer, instead of in the contentions). And they did make an exception with the most important scene: that final fight. It was like they suddenly realized the gravitas of the situation and wanted to do right by the scene; the color, framing, and flow becomes more cinematic, even including a comic-sensibility, memorably eye-catching shot! (Though seen from the opposite side in the actual film and done in a brief but thrilling slo-mo) Really though, even with all the quibbles (including the crucial part that are its directors) this still remains my favorite Marvel because I really love this story, which also does right by the characters I have become really attached to.

[Morris Schæffer]

I'm not so sure it is. There's so much going on in some of these fight scenes that it's hard to put into words. Even the quick fights, like when Bucky get's activated: You have four different styles of fighters, Tony, Agent 13, Panther and Widow, all well balanced and relentless; and that's just one of the small battles. The Russo's just GET close combat action and it looks gorgeous on screen. I can't remember the last time I was WOWed by fight scenes like this. Maybe the RAID?

I thought the close combat was decent like that staircase fight. Still quite inferior to a very similar fight in Daredevil season 2. The airport scene was much more coherent, but that hardly classifies as "close combat." Generally speaking, good fight scenes are hard to come by these days, but I don't wanna get too defensive here. I did think the action was very, very good.

That said, no one seems to be hitting anyone in these movies during close quarter fights. I don't feel the pain, I just hear persuasive sound effects informing me that, apparently, someone was hit hard.