Match Cut Madness 3: Best of the 00s

[Peng]

Lol it's adaptation; the film's one is not going to land as written word well in the book too (especially when surrounded by Tolkien's language and plotting, since in the book that moment is the first time readers/Merry learned that it was actually Eowyn in disguise). They each work for their own medium.

[StuSmallz]

Lol it's adaptation; the film's one is not going to land as written word well in the book too (especially when surrounded by Tolkien's language and plotting, since in the book that moment is the first time readers/Merry learned that it was actually Eowyn in disguise). They each work for their own medium.

That's true, and I suppose part of that preference is also just due to the fact that I prefer the movies' take on the material (which I felt were more engrossing than the books', since I found them to be a bit too reserved) in general.

[Yxklyx]

The movie definitely did that moment better then, IMO; sorry, any Tolkien-ites here!

Actually no. I was disappointed in the change in dialogue here. I think the original would have worked much better. Also, some of Aragorn's final words to Boromir were better written in the book.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Yeah, but it's also not as though they have no concept of gender in the movies' version of Middle Earth

As it turns out, the pig-faced orc who said "The age of men is over" was ahead of the social justice curve and in fact predicted a #metoo reckoning spanning all of Middle-Earth.

I read the books a few months ago, and this sequence is just a very simplified version of the book's more formal, mythic-leaning language (I was surprised too that this scene is not wholly a film-made moment upon reading to that part), but in the book Tolkien essentially uses 'man' the same way:

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

[......] "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."

Well damn, there goes my theory. Despite it being in the original text, however, I still think it one of the spottier moments lore-wise. I hope the witch king's response was, "Alas, thou hast smitten me upon a technicality!"

[baby doll]

I think that boiling the trilogy's portrayal of female characters down to nothing more than "rah rah women" is an over-simplification, and I also can't agree with the idea that there's no ideological tension or anxiety in the trilogy's depictions of women; it's just that it's not super up front about it (although even that is ignoring Aragorn's concern about the road to Rivendell being too dangerous for Arwen, or his potentially chauvinistic surprise at Eowyn for being a woman that has some "skill with a blade"). After all, the movies didn't come out in some sort of social vacuum, and similar to the way that Gone With The Wind reflected Great Depression-era anxieties about women in a Civil War-set narrative, the Lord Of The Rings movies reflected a number of conflicting historical and artistic contexts, as they were obviously produced as early 2000's adaptations of mid-20th century novels, and co-written by two New Zealand women, but adapted from the writing of a British/South African man born in 1892, a writer whose depiction of female characters has often been criticized as reflecting regressive personal views on his part.

So, there's a ton to study there as a result, whether it's the debate we're having on whether the films' portrayal of women was a mindless appeal to modern "gurl power!" sentiments, or an intriguing subversion of our expectations for how women would behave a presumably more patriarchal, medieval-style society (I obviously fall in the latter category), whether the deletion of certain supporting female characters from the books in favor of brevity was justified, in light of the overall reduction in female presence they resulted in, and whether they did more to reinforce regressive depictions of women as mere love interests by bringing the romance between Aragorn & Arwen more to the forefront, or did enough to offset that by portraying her as more of a warrior on the whole. So, as far as I'm concerned, there's just as much intellectual juice to be wrung out of the more implicit gender tensions of the trilogy as when that theme is more overt, and certainly more than actual examples of empty, contrived "gurl power!" in film:

Anyway, as for the complaint about the portrayal of women being "sex-less", that strikes me as being an oddly narrow criticism, and ultimately an irrelevant one as well, because, just like I can't imagine something like The Handmaiden being as good as it was without its relatively graphic sex scenes (because they're essential to the overall effect of that film), I also can't imagine LOTR being better with more sexual female characters, because that all depends on the particular movie in question, and whether or not it needs sexual content in general. I mean, the sexual content of Game Of Thrones worked because that series was designed from the ground up to be a grittier, more realistic deconstruction of the High Fantasy style that Tolkien popularized (although even then the show went too far with it at times), but something like that would be a terrible change to include in an adaptation of Rings, and none of the female characters in the trilogy would be improved at all if they were more sexual, IMO (because the scene in Fellowship where Arwen tells Aragorn that "I would rather share one lifetime with you than face all the ages of this world alone" is already as romantic as it gets, and nothing about the depiction of their relationship would be improved if she were a sexier character, or if she and Aragorn were shown to be doing it at any one point).

When I said The Lord of the Rings trilogy was sexless, I didn't mean to suggest that this was a flaw per se or that adding sex would have automatically improved the quality of the films (although it couldn't have hurt!). To reiterate, my argument is that the sort of ideological tensions one finds in a film like Gone with the Wind--sexual or otherwise--are not present, as far as I can perceive, in Jackson's trilogy. The films could've embodied other ideological contradictions besides the sexual, which I was using merely as an example, but the starkness of the film's moral universe seems to preclude it, and this lack of tension is, in large part, what makes the trilogy so bland.

The problem with trying to read ideological contradictions into the trilogy's depiction of women is twofold: first, women are peripheral to the plot rather than central (as they are in The Cheat, Gone with the Wind, Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!, Basic Instinct, and Jackson's earlier Heavenly Creatures, which had matricidal teen lesbians), and second, while individual characters in the narrative may be uncomfortable with assertive women, the film portrays those women and their actions in unambiguously positive terms. In other words, even if the women transgress the gender norms of Middle Earth, they don't transgress the gender norms of western societies in the early twenty-first century. The films weren't made in a historical vacuum, but they don't strike me as being what Eric Cazdyn would call "films of history"--i.e., films that work through the most fundamental ideological contradictions of their time on the level of their form before a common language exists to speak about these issues. (Significantly, many of Cazdyn's examples centre on the figure of a transgressive woman: A Page of Madness, Sisters of the Gion, In the Realm of the Senses.) Fritz Lang's Die Nibelungen clearly has a lot to tell us about Germany in the 1920s, despite being based on a thirteenth-century epic poem, but I'm not convinced that Jackson's film has all that much to tell us about New Zealand in the early 2000s (putting the aside the fact that Lang was a great filmmaker and Jackson isn't).

[Idioteque Stalker]

With fewer than 48 hours left to go, we have:

Ties
Kill Bill Vol. 1 vs. Irreversible
A Serious Man vs. Unbreakable

Nailbiters
Pan's Labyrinth vs. Dogtooth
The Royal Tenenbaums vs. 25th Hour
There Will Be Blood vs. A.I. Artificial Intelligence

If you've been thinking about voting and have a preference in these match-ups (or any others), now would be a great time to vote by posting in this thread or sending me a PM.

And you Play-In Round participants with extra Round 1 votes -- it's getting to be that time.

[baby doll]

Idioteque Stalker informs me that, according to the rules, I have a "plus-one" vote for this round, which I will bestow upon A.I.

[Philip J. Fry]

No Country for Old Men vs. Moon
The Royal Tenenbaums vs. 25th Hour
Punch-Drunk Love vs. O Brother, Where Art Thou?
Brokeback Mountain vs. Finding Nemo

Surprisingly I don't like Nemo that much.

Lost In Translation vs. I’m Not There
Shaun of the Dead vs. The Life Aquatic
Spider-Man 2 vs. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Fantastic Mr. Fox vs. Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter… and Spring

There Will Be Blood vs. A.I. Artificial Intelligence
The New World vs. Amelie
Memento vs. The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford
Zodiac vs. The Diving Bell and the Butterfly
Ratatouille vs. In Bruges

The Dark Knight vs. Paprika
Inglourious Basterds vs. A History of Violence
Minority Report vs. Oldboy
LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring vs. City of God

[Spun Lepton]

No Country for Old Men vs. Moon
Brick vs. Requiem for a Dream
Spirited Away vs. The Descent
Punch-Drunk Love vs. O Brother, Where Art Thou?

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Primer
Brokeback Mountain vs. Finding Nemo
Shaun of the Dead vs. The Life Aquatic

There Will Be Blood vs. A.I. Artificial Intelligence (no contest)
The Prestige vs. Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
Children of Men vs. Battle Royale
Ratatouille vs. In Bruges

A Serious Man vs. Unbreakable
Wall-E vs. Kung Fu Hustle
Minority Report vs. Oldboy


These games always remind me of how many major movies I have not seen.

[Ezee E]

Do I have an extra round 1 vote?

[Skitch]

Hey Stalker your inbox is full.

[Idioteque Stalker]

Do I have an extra round 1 vote?

No. After replacing three movies you blocked Ghost World, advancing A History of Violence to Round 1. Extra votes went to those who replaced three movies but didn't block anything.

Hey Stalker your inbox is full.

Fixed. Resend those nudes.

[Mr. McGibblets]

Eowyn was from her mother's womb untimely ripped.

[Skitch]

Fixed. Resend those nudes.

I....I have never in my life wanted to send pictures of my balls and taint more than now

[Yxklyx]

I have an extra bonus round 1 vote for sale to highest bidder

[megladon8]

No Country for Old Men vs. Moon
Brick vs. Requiem for a Dream
Pan’s Labyrinth vs. Dogtooth
Kill Bill Vol. 1 vs. Irreversible
The Royal Tenenbaums vs. 25th Hour
Almost Famous vs. Tropic Thunder
Spirited Away vs. The Descent
Punch-Drunk Love vs. O Brother, Where Art Thou?

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Primer
Brokeback Mountain vs. Finding Nemo
Lost In Translation vs. I’m Not There
Shaun of the Dead vs. The Life Aquatic
Mulholland Drive vs. Donnie Darko
Spider-Man 2 vs. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Before Sunset vs. Adaptation
Fantastic Mr. Fox vs. Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter… and Spring

There Will Be Blood vs. A.I. Artificial Intelligence
The New World vs. Amelie
In the Mood for Love vs. Still Walking
Memento vs. The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford
Zodiac vs. The Diving Bell and the Butterfly
The Prestige vs. Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
Children of Men vs. Battle Royale
Ratatouille vs. In Bruges

The Dark Knight vs. Paprika
A Serious Man vs. Unbreakable
Wall-E vs. Kung Fu Hustle
The Departed vs. Y Tu Mama Tambien
Inglourious Basterds vs. A History of Violence
Minority Report vs. Oldboy
LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring vs. City of God
The Incredibles vs. Yi Yi

[DFA1979]

No Country for Old Men vs. Moon
The Royal Tenenbaums vs. 25th Hour-only seen TRT
Punch-Drunk Love vs. O Brother, Where Art Thou?-only seen O Brother
Brokeback Mountain vs. Finding Nemo

Lost In Translation vs. I’m Not There-Only seen LIT
Shaun of the Dead vs. The Life Aquatic
Spider-Man 2 vs. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Fantastic Mr. Fox vs. Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter… and Spring-only seen Mr. Fox

There Will Be Blood vs. A.I. Artificial Intelligence-N/A
The New World vs. Amelie
Memento vs. The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford
Zodiac vs. The Diving Bell and the Butterfly-Only seen Zodiac
Ratatouille vs. In Bruges

The Dark Knight vs. Paprika
Inglourious Basterds vs. A History of Violence
Minority Report vs. Oldboy
LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring vs. City of God-Only seen LOTR

[DFA1979]

If I have time I'll try and get to the ones available on streaming. Pluto TV has multiple ones and Peacock has Brokeback Mountain so I'm watching that right now. Tubi has Spring Summer Fall Winter etc. City of God is on Hulu but it's premium subscription boo.

[Yxklyx]

You definitely need to check out City of God. I'm sure it'll be in at least the Elite Eight (if it beats LOTR).

Since there were no takers I'll put my bonus vote for Kill Bill Vol. 1 - not that I'm so in love with it but Irreversible doesn't do much for me and all the others are rather even match-ups.

The New World not doing good and I even voted against it because it's against Amelie but it's one of my favorite films from this decade, might be my favorite film directed by Terrence Malick.

[DFA1979]

You definitely need to check out City of God. I'm sure it'll be in at least the Elite Eight (if it beats LOTR).

Since there were no takers I'll put my bonus vote for Kill Bill Vol. 1 - not that I'm so in love with it but Irreversible doesn't do much for me and all the others are rather even match-ups.

The New World not doing good and I even voted against it because it's against Amelie but it's one of my favorite films from this decade, might be my favorite film directed by Terrence Malick.

City of God is a big one I haven't seen yet.

I like The New World but Amelie is one of my favorite movies ever made and it's one of those unique and special films that I cherish a lot.

[Skitch]

I'll never forget seeing City of God in theater...very unusual to get such a film in my area, and me and my buddy were alone in the theater.

[Idioteque Stalker]

A massive surge from Oldboy at the finish! Round 1 results incoming.

[Philip J. Fry]

I'll never forget seeing City of God in theater...very unusual to get such a film in my area, and me and my buddy were alone in the theater.

Kinda sad to see an empty theater for a film of that caliber.

[DFA1979]

Kinda sad to see an empty theater for a film of that caliber.

I've seen a lot of great movies in empty theaters by myself. People in this country often hate reading subtitles which is silly. One of the things I like about The Last Drive-In With Joe Bob Briggs is that every season he picks some foreign movies to showcase even though people still complain about having to read subtitles.

[dreamdead]

Last minute sneaking in...

No Country for Old Men vs. Moon
Brick vs. Requiem for a Dream
Pan’s Labyrinth vs. Dogtooth
Kill Bill Vol. 1 vs. Irreversible
The Royal Tenenbaums vs. 25th Hour
Almost Famous vs. Tropic Thunder
Spirited Away vs. The Descent
Punch-Drunk Love vs. O Brother, Where Art Thou?

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind vs. Primer
Brokeback Mountain vs. Finding Nemo
Lost In Translation vs. I’m Not There
Shaun of the Dead vs. The Life Aquatic
Mulholland Drive vs. Donnie Darko
Spider-Man 2 vs. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Before Sunset vs. Adaptation
Fantastic Mr. Fox vs. Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter… and Spring

There Will Be Blood vs. A.I. Artificial Intelligence
The New World vs. Amelie
In the Mood for Love vs. Still Walking (harder than I thought)
Memento vs. The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford
Zodiac vs. The Diving Bell and the Butterfly
The Prestige vs. Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
Children of Men vs. Battle Royale
Ratatouille vs. In Bruges

The Dark Knight vs. Paprika
A Serious Man vs. Unbreakable
Wall-E vs. Kung Fu Hustle
The Departed vs. Y Tu Mama Tambien
Inglourious Basterds vs. A History of Violence
Minority Report vs. Oldboy
LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring vs. City of God
The Incredibles vs. Yi Yi