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Thread: Mank (David Fincher)

  1. #26
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    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    The entire film is told in flashback after he has found out who Tyler is, so technically he is deceiving the audience from the first couple of minutes by keeping the information secret. But what I was referring to is the fact you cannot trust the narrator's recollections; it has nothing to do with "intentional deception", which is apparently your definition of it, but not mine.
    Yes. The nice thing about literary theories is they are also open to interpretation, in addition to the work they might cover.

    The Narrator never tips his hand, tho, the way, say, Nick Carroway does or Humbert Humbert does --- you don't get any indication that what you're seeing isn't what's really happening.

    The filmmakers wanted to protect the reveal at all cost, so I sorta understood why they took that approach, but otoh I don't think the reveal was worth it, either.

    And complaining about Zodiac revelling in detail (the "gross" does not make sense, given that the actual murders are all done within 30 minutes and the rest of the film is names, dates, places, recollections) is like complaining about Jaws making sharks scary - it's the whole entire point of the thing. (And if you cannot distinguish between how the lake murders are set up and the tension controlled and how Forensic Files does things, well, your eyes are broken )
    Consider the ways Fincher covers the murders in "Zodiac," where he dwells on detail in multiple ways, as opposed to the way Bong Joon Hoo covers the killings in "Memories of Murder," where he's almost shy about showing a single dead body.

    Fincher is absolutely fascinated by the mystery, the empty hole of not knowing who Zodiac is, that he completely forgets there were real people involved. That's what makes it gross (in multiple senses of that word).

    Richard Roeper from 2000 called and wants his criticism back.
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  2. #27
    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    The narrative of Fight Club works because the entire thing is based on an unreliable narrator. Yes, that means you can pretty much brush away any inconsistencies, but it is enough to allow the themes and sheer comedy of it all to take precedence. I too did not like the reveal of the narrator fighting by himself in the parking lot, feeling that it looked too stupid to every attract a following - but it does not take too much imagination to see one of the men coming up to Norton and asking what the fuck is wrong with him, and Norton saying "I want you to hit me as hard as you can" and things moving on from there. Maybe Fincher should have included that to forestall criticisms like yours, but nothing about the film is predicated on the story lining up on screen.
    I disagree that the fact of an unreliable narrator means that one can simply brush away any and all inconsistencies in the narrative, since the idea of an unreliable narrator presumes an objective version of events--a version that one would expect to be consistent and believable. Moreover, unlike "The Turn of the Screw" and Rashomon, Fincher's film presents the objective version directly: We see the narrator's delusion and then we see what "really" happened. I suppose one could claim that this version is just as fishy as the delusion it ostensibly supplants, but in a way that's the problem: At a certain point, the characters stop driving the plot and the plot starts driving the characters. As a result, the film is never less than entertaining but it's ultimately less than the sum of its parts.
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  3. #28
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    The filmmakers wanted to protect the reveal at all cost, so I sorta understood why they took that approach, but otoh I don't think the reveal was worth it, either.
    I think the reveal works in that it sucks a lot of the audience into being attracted Tyler and then pulls the rug out from under them, leading to cognitive dissonance. It works very well on that metatextual level (leading to various misinterpretations and misunderstandings - I remember one critic complaining about a scene on the bus where Durden complains about advertising that insists on pushing a specific view of men as fit, handsome, muscular by saying something along the lines of it being hypocritical coming from Pitt's mouth; like, did you just stop watching at that point or what?)

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)

    Consider the ways Fincher covers the murders in "Zodiac," where he dwells on detail in multiple ways, as opposed to the way Bong Joon Hoo covers the killings in "Memories of Murder," where he's almost shy about showing a single dead body.

    Fincher is absolutely fascinated by the mystery, the empty hole of not knowing who Zodiac is, that he completely forgets there were real people involved. That's what makes it gross (in multiple senses of that word).
    Yeah, I don't get that at all. For me, by staging the murders in detail, it captures that original lurid urge that gets Graysmith and Avery (less so Toschi, given that it was his job) and the multitude of Zodiac obsessives involved in the case, gets it over with in 30 minutes, and then spends the next 2 hours or so as the memories of the actual murders fade away and everyone is left with paper trails and endless phone calls.

    On a practical note, there is a world of difference in realistically (in the case of the lake murder) or stylistically (in the case of the first murder) presenting a shooting or stabbing murder and presenting a prolonged rape and murder. Hence why Memories of Murder had no chance of going down that route (plus there were no surviving witnesses for most of the cases to provide the details Zodiac had to work with).

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Okay?
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  4. #29
    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    1. Robert Graysmith, 2. Paul Avery, 3. Dave Toschi. Pretty obsessively, actually. Which is the fundamental point of the film.
    I think it's a stretch to say that the protagonists' obsessiveness is the fundamental point of the film. Despite certain nods in that direction (most obviously the neglected wife subplot), the film ultimately validates their obsession by lavishing so much attention on the details of the case. That is, the film presumes that the details of a forty-year-old cold case are inherently fascinating, and moreover, that they're fascinating simply because they're based on fact.
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  5. #30
    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I disagree that the fact of an unreliable narrator means that one can simply brush away any and all inconsistencies in the narrative, since the idea of an unreliable narrator presumes an objective version of events--a version that one would expect to be consistent and believable. Moreover, unlike "The Turn of the Screw" and Rashomon, Fincher's film presents the objective version directly: We see the narrator's delusion and then we see what "really" happened. I suppose one could claim that this version is just as fishy as the delusion it ostensibly supplants, but in a way that's the problem: At a certain point, the characters stop driving the plot and the plot starts driving the characters. As a result, the film is never less than entertaining but it's ultimately less than the sum of its parts.
    I disagree that the particulars of the plot drive Fight Club in any meaningful way; hence why I am more than happy to brush away any perceived inconsistencies in a way that I probably wouldn't in something like Knives Out, where the entire film is predicated on the solving of a specific mystery and the plot needs to fit together in order for it to make sense at the end. It should also be noted that I think Fight Club is first and foremost a comedy, and I really don't care about plot in a comedy. ("Is it really realistic that Andy Samberg's character in Hot Rod would inspire a riot scored to John Farnhams' "You're the Voice"? Preposterous!")
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  6. #31
    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I think it's a stretch to say that the protagonists' obsessiveness is the fundamental point of the film.
    Well, this is where we totally disagree, and there is not much else to discuss. To me, it is blatantly obviously the point.
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  7. #32
    Shit, I got work to do. Stop distracting me! Bye.
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  8. #33
    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    I disagree that the particulars of the plot drive Fight Club in any meaningful way; hence why I am more than happy to brush away any perceived inconsistencies in a way that I probably wouldn't in something like Knives Out, where the entire film is predicated on the solving of a specific mystery and the plot needs to fit together in order for it to make sense at the end. It should also be noted that I think Fight Club is first and foremost a comedy, and I really don't care about plot in a comedy. ("Is it really realistic that Andy Samberg's character in Hot Rod would inspire a riot scored to John Farnhams' "You're the Voice"? Preposterous!")
    I haven't seen Hot Rod, but I think the quote from Aristotle applies here as well: Whether a character inciting a riot is believable or not depends on the fictional context the film creates for that action. Therefore, it's possible to imagine, at least in theory, a film where that action would be believable. The problem with Fight Club is that, beyond a certain point, the characters have no integrity but are whatever the plot requires them to be at a given moment. Tyler Durden is real and then he's not real. Project Mayhem is a dozen guys in a basement and then it's every man everywhere. The narrator is a normal guy and then he can survive a gunshot to the face.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    I think the reveal works in that it sucks a lot of the audience into being attracted Tyler and then pulls the rug out from under them, leading to cognitive dissonance.
    I don't think it does this at all. The movie doubles down when Durden is revealed as a phantom: Pitt is costumed like a rock star, more charismatic than ever.

    It works very well on that metatextual level (leading to various misinterpretations and misunderstandings - I remember one critic complaining about a scene on the bus where Durden complains about advertising that insists on pushing a specific view of men as fit, handsome, muscular by saying something along the lines of it being hypocritical coming from Pitt's mouth; like, did you just stop watching at that point or what?)
    It doesn't work on a metatextual level because (a) the Calvin Klein model / Brad Pitt criticism is too easy to make, and the movie has no answer for it and (b) the movie never refutes Durden's bullshit in a meaningful way. It can't, because it's too in love with the character.

    Yeah, I don't get that at all. For me, by staging the murders in detail, it captures that original lurid urge that gets Graysmith and Avery (less so Toschi, given that it was his job) and the multitude of Zodiac obsessives involved in the case, gets it over with in 30 minutes, and then spends the next 2 hours or so as the memories of the actual murders fade away and everyone is left with paper trails and endless phone calls.
    That would be fine in a fictional film, but these are real people, and I think there is something grotesque about fingering every stab wound and bullet hole on camera the way Fincher does.

    On a practical note, there is a world of difference in realistically (in the case of the lake murder) or stylistically (in the case of the first murder) presenting a shooting or stabbing murder and presenting a prolonged rape and murder. Hence why Memories of Murder had no chance of going down that route (plus there were no surviving witnesses for most of the cases to provide the details Zodiac had to work with).
    Nah, are you kidding? An American director would have made it lurid as hell (and they have, again cf: "Zodiac," or any of the dime-a-dozen "true crime" documentaries on Netflix right now).

    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    Well, this is where we totally disagree, and there is not much else to discuss. To me, it is blatantly obviously the point.
    This may have been Fincher's point but he doesn't sell it well. Every time I've seen this movie I've shrugged at the end. I never felt an ounce of the obsessiveness the characters did, just mostly annoyance at their (and the film's) single-mindedness.

  10. #35
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Trans....rep rep rep. Agree agree agree.

    Bd, irish... I dont want to speak for you, but do you feel that Fight Club (like say maybe...Boondock Saints), you have a harsher take on because of the fanboys that worship it? I've never understood the hate for Boondock Saints because Ive always seen it for what is, another silly average 90s DTV action movie. Stack up all the VHS tapes that fit that description, theres a bajillion. The only thing that really separates it is the odd cult following. It is annoying...does it effect your eye more critically to the movie?
    Last edited by Skitch; 10-10-2020 at 11:07 AM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    The narrator is a normal guy and then he can survive a gunshot to the face.
    Again I'm being purposefully selective with you on what I debate, I'm not ignoring your other points, if the film made you feel that way, fair enough. But I promise you, if I put a pistol in your mouth, and specifically pointed it out your cheek, you would survive.

  12. #37
    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    Trans....rep rep rep. Agree agree agree.

    Bd, irish... I dont want to speak for you, but do you feel that Fight Club (like say maybe...Boondock Saints), you have a harsher take on because of the fanboys that worship it? I've never understood the hate for Boondock Saints because Ive always seen it for what is, another silly average 90s DTV action movie. Stack up all the VHS tapes that fit that description, theres a bajillion. The only thing that really separates it is the odd cult following. It is annoying...does it effect your eye more critically to the movie?
    The film's popularity doesn't figure into my assessment; I'm evaluating the film purely on how successful it is in what it attempts to do (i.e., partly).

    For the record, I haven't seen Boondock Saints.
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  13. #38
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    I think Fight Club is fine. CGI sex scene is weird and "why?". Everyone is good in it.

    But it's far from top tier Fincher.

    And as Skitch mentioned, the cult following it has with college age douchebags is hard to escape, and unfathomably annoying.

    I'll take American Psycho, thank you very much.
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  14. #39
    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    And as Skitch mentioned, the cult following it has with college age douchebags is hard to escape, and unfathomably annoying.
    Why?
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  15. #40
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    Why?
    Why is there the douchebag cult? Or why do I find them annoying?
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  16. #41
    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    Why is there the douchebag cult? Or why do I find them annoying?
    The latter.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    The latter.
    The entire worship of the film and the character of Durden is steeped in not understanding either.

    It's the equivalent of wearing a Travis Bickle as The Punisher shirt.
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  18. #43
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    It's the equivalent of wearing a Travis Bickle as The Punisher shirt.
    Bee eye en gee oh

  19. #44
    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    The entire worship of the film and the character of Durden is steeped in not understanding either.

    It's the equivalent of wearing a Travis Bickle as The Punisher shirt.
    I think we ought to accept that with any film there's no one correct way to interpret it and the filmmakers' actual intentions are irrelevant--especially in the case of films as incoherent as Taxi Driver and Fight Club, which seem to purposely court contradictory interpretations in order to maximize their commercial potential.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I think we ought to accept that with any film there's no one correct way to interpret it and the filmmakers' actual intentions are irrelevant--especially in the case of films as incoherent as Taxi Driver and Fight Club, which seem to purposely court contradictory interpretations in order to maximize their commercial potential.
    While I would generally agree with you, I think that hero worship of Tyler Durden is incredibly misguided and gross.
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  21. #46
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I think we ought to accept that with any film there's no one correct way to interpret it and the filmmakers' actual intentions are irrelevant--
    I agree with this. But don't you think when people en masse miss the point of a film and worship it for all the wrong reasons it can be annoying and cause us to look at the film with a sharper eye? I'm totally guilty of this kind of thing from time to time.

    Edit: Pro and con. People seem to universally adore Fargo. I don't.

  22. #47
    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    While I would generally agree with you, I think that hero worship of Tyler Durden is incredibly misguided and gross.
    Both the film and a certain section of its fanbase are symptomatic of contradictory attitudes about masculinity that are pervasive in American society: Durden is everything America tells young men they should be (fit, self-reliant, hyper-knowledgeable, a dynamo in the sack) and he's "toxic." So it seems a bit facile to me to shit on college bros for worshipping Durden, especially when the film itself is almost schizophrenically divided in its attitude towards him.
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  23. #48
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    ...its like the entire movie is being retold by a schizophrenic multiple-personality disorder person...

    Tyler and his entire design and personality DOES NOT EXIST. It was the narrator's perception. Tyler's look was only ever perceived by the narrator. By the film audience, we are supposed to see Tyler's look as comedy, irony, hypocrisy...because he is the ultimate culmination of everything America tells young men they should be (fit, self-reliant, hyper-knowledgeable, a dynamo in the sack) and he's "toxic." I look how you (think) you wanna look, I fuck how you wanna fuck...etc...
    Last edited by Skitch; 10-10-2020 at 08:19 PM.

  24. #49
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    The film looks at Durden in a positive light because the Narrator does. Until he doesn't, then the film doesn't.

    I don't think the film is conflicted about him at all, it's the Narrator who is. Which is the point.

    I mean, the guy brags about pissing in soup at a restaurant job. This is not a cool, awesome guy.
    Last edited by megladon8; 10-10-2020 at 08:48 PM.
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  25. #50
    Quote Quoting Skitch
    ...its like the entire movie is being retold by a schizophrenic multiple-personality disorder person...
    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    The film looks at Durden in a positive light because the Narrative does. Until he doesn't, then the film doesn't.

    I don't think the film is conflicted about him at all, it's the Narrator who is. Which is the point.

    I mean, the guy brags about pissing in soup at a restaurant job. This is not a cool, awesome guy.
    Since the film creates a strong initial impression that Durden is a great guy (especially in comparison with the relatively wimpy and listless narrator), that impression persists to a large degree beyond the Big Twist. As Murray Smith writes in Engaging Characters, "our [moral] evaluation of characters is continually revised, but the 'drag' of emotions results in a lingering sentiment for unattractive characters with whom we were once (at least somewhat) sympathetically attached" (p. 217). In other words, it's not as if the film could turn off the spectator's sympathy for Durden like a faucet. Moreover, the film never presents any compelling reason why Durden's plot to blow up the credit system needs to be stopped, especially in light of the film's first half-hour which offers a fairly persuasive case for doing exactly that. In short, if one takes the message of the film to be anti-Durden (and I don't think that's the only message one might extract from the film), that message is at odds with how the spectator actually feels about the story.

    That said, it seems to me a rationalization to attribute the film's ideological confusions and lack of narrative credibility to the unreliable narrator. My objection isn't so much that the narration asks us to believe one thing and then another; it's that the film simply asks us to believe too much. A schizophrenic cult leader may be convincing, depending on the fictional context; that the cult would balloon to such proportions that seemingly no adult male in America isn't in on it is not convincing. With each turn of the plot, it becomes harder and harder to believe very seriously in anything that happens.
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