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[Grouchy]

I think it's a dubious proposition to criticize another country's institutions from the outside, especially when one knows nothing about them.

Oh come on.

[Ezee E]

Hitler's ideas are a little extreme, but I'm just on the outside looking in.

[Irish]

Hitler's ideas are a little extreme, but I'm just on the outside looking in.

Lol, nooooooooooooo, Ezee. Nooooooooo. No.

That's a terrible counter on the face of it and you don't need anyone to explain why.

[transmogrifier]

I think it's a dubious proposition to criticize another country's institutions from the outside, especially when one knows nothing about them.

If only, say, the Internet existed where you could find out information on things like that. How long do you think it would take me to learn as much about the electoral collage system as the average American voter knows?

[Irish]

If only, say, the Internet existed where you could find out information on things like that.

Absolutely agreed. It's a pity Grouchy didn't avail himself of the opportunity when it came to the monarchy.

How long do you think it would take me to learn as much about the electoral collage system as the average American voter knows?

I bet you could memorize the Wikipedia page, know the history, understand the mechanics and still not be able to tell me why the Electoral College was created and why it still exists.

[Wryan]

I bet you could memorize the Wikipedia page, know the history, understand the mechanics and still not be able to tell me why the Electoral College was created and why it still exists.

So that all 13 people in Montana can continue to torment us.

[baby doll]

I think it's a dubious proposition to criticize another country's institutions from the outside, especially when one knows nothing about them.

Since the Queen is technically Canada's head of state, I believe I have sufficient standing to say that the monarchy is stupid.

[Grouchy]

I just don't believe what you're saying. Hitler is always the go-to example but for example, imagine you pointed out that women have very few rights in Iran or Saudi Arabia or that there's very little free speech in Thailand and I told you "no, you can't say that, you're in the outside looking in". I dare you to live by that philosophy of avoiding passing judgment on any country that isn't your own.

Anyway, what are you, a royalist Irishman?

[Irish]

Since the Queen is technically Canada's head of state, I believe I have sufficient standing to say that the monarchy is stupid.

Pretty sure she still has the power to seize your land and throw you in the Tower of London, so I'd be careful if I were you.

Hitler is always the go-to example

Only if you want to make everything as dumb as possible as soon as possible. Godwinning the argument this early is never a good sign.

I mean, do I really have to explain that Nazi Germany isn't representative of Germany as a whole? Either culturally, historically, socially, or institutionally? Or that comparing German fascist government that lasted 12 years to a British institution that's lasted over 1,000 is non-sensical?

imagine you pointed out that women have very few rights in Iran or Saudi Arabia or that there's very little free speech in Thailand and I told you "no, you can't say that, you're in the outside looking in".

Iran isn't a monarchy. Thailand has one of the longest running monarchies in the world (800 years, I think?), but the country is also ruled by a military junta. Saudi Arabia is all kinds of fucked up, at least from the outside, but then as American it would be pretty hypocritical of me to start squawking about other country's human rights abuses.

Anyway, if you really want to make this argument, you could say that, well, France and Germany --- two countries more comparable to the UK --- shucked off their monarchies and they are theoretically better for it. And then, ya know, maybe list a bunch of reasons how and why.

I dare you to live by that philosophy of avoiding passing judgment on any country that isn't your own.

I didn't say you couldn't. I'm saying doing it means you're operating from a dubious position, because it's almost guaranteed you're operating from ignorance --- as you very clearly were when talking about The Queen of England, or Transmo might theoretically be talking about the Electoral College.

Anyway, what are you, a royalist Irishman?

I'm sorta torn. I'm not for this particular monarchy, but the older I get the more I like tradition.

[transmogrifier]

Absolutely agreed. It's a pity Grouchy didn't avail himself of the opportunity when it came to the monarchy.



I bet you could memorize the Wikipedia page, know the history, understand the mechanics and still not be able to tell me why the Electoral College was created and why it still exists.

But it seems to me that you are implying that I can only understand that by living in the US. And I would argue that that is nonsense.

[transmogrifier]

Transmo might theoretically be talking about the Electoral College.

It's always going to be theoretical, unfortunately; I get enough of your politics every time that buffoon Trump is on TV here. That's all I can tolerate.

[Irish]

But it seems to me that you are implying that I can only understand that by living in the US.

Sorta? I think unless you know a place from the inside, either by living there in earnest or doing a fuckton of research, then you'll miss certain cultural nuances, as well as historical and institutional dependencies.

[transmogrifier]

Sorta? I think unless you know a place from the inside, either by living there in earnest or doing a fuckton of research, then you'll miss certain cultural nuances, as well as historical and institutional dependencies.

But by that definition, no-one on Earth can truly understand the reasons why the Electoral Collage was set up because no-one alive now was "living there in earnest" at the time it happened. So that leaves "doing a fuckton of research" which anyone can do, but most people - American or not - don't.

I would never make any claims like "living in America must be hell" because, well, I've never lived there, so how would I know that? But I see nothing wrong with a non-American making a claim like "the Electoral System in America sucks" if they have researched it.

[Grouchy]

All right, fair enough. From my outsider's perspective, I can't really see the upside of maintaining a royal family. However dubious my opinion might be, the best example you could make for why Elizabeth II is a useful ruler for the British dated back to WWII.

And I wasn't talking about monarchy specifically in Iran or Thailand, I was just making examples of shit you could point out about their respective societies that's wrong without living there.

[Ezee E]

I'm for the electoral college by the way, just think that there should be a revision in states and electoral votes based on population changes, and states should be able to divide up votes like Maine.

[transmogrifier]

And here I am calling it the electoral collage. See I learned something new already!

[Pop Trash]

I'm for the electoral college by the way, just think that there should be a revision in states and electoral votes based on population changes, and states should be able to divide up votes like Maine.

I have mixed feelings about it, but I do like that it enables certain smaller swing state to have some political power. Otherwise California, NY, and Texas would run roughshod over the rest of America. I think the founding fathers were pretty perceptive in understanding the divisions between small states vs larger states, rural vs urban. I think they got the "two Americas" thing centuries ago. That's why they split Senate and Congress w/ Congress having more power w/ populous states and Senate being equal irrespective of state population.

That said, I do totally understand why other countries think we are crazy for not having direct democracy Presidential elections.

[Dukefrukem]

Pretty good timeline

[Ezee E]

1 PM EST still work? I can set it up tomorrow.

Who would like to join?

I'll post a link here.

[bac0n]

I’m still down. Not like I have anywhere I need to be....


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[Dukefrukem]

Doooo it

[[ETM]]

That's 7PM Central European Time, I can do that.

[MadMan]

Fuck the electoral college and monarchies. It's the 21st century people should be able to elect their leaders.

[Grouchy]

2 PM over here, works for me.

[Grouchy]

Fuck the electoral college and monarchies. It's the 21st century people should be able to elect their leaders.

I agree wholeheartedly but apparently you can't know how great it is until you try it!