Wasn't talking about the ending. I was talking about her journey to the ending. She falls into the exact same tropes as the first film. "Ohhhh its allll my fault.... if only my parents weren't doing X Y and Z. I can't live with myself. I'll runaway from everyone I know to feel sorry for myself! Boo Hoooo hooooo"Quoting TGM (view post)
I saw the film last night and I still have no idea what your'e talking about. So no, it's not firmly established at all. Seems very opposite of firmly established.
The rest of the points I dont care to quibble about. Song taste is subjective. None of the songs appealed to me. Kind of joke they were even nominated for an Oscar.
Kristoff was given the bare minimum to do for a supporting character and the proposal bit was tired.
Take it from a Disney shill, this movie is not good.
You totally just made all that up. That's not what happened with ANY of the spirits and you know that, more notably the water horse that tried to fucking drown her and the rock monsters that want to crush anything and everything it sees.
Okay? My point doesn't change?
Okay, and...?
Don't recall any hot potato exposition in this movie.
She wasn't running away though? She was momentarily isolating herself to grieve over this new revelation. If it were like the first movie, do you really think Anna would've been able to console her as easily as she did? When Anna tried this in the first film, she literally made a giant snowman monster to chase her off the mountain.
Just because you don't recall it doesn't mean that I didn't literally just describe events from the movie as they happened in the movie. It's not the movie's fault if you weren't able to keep up with it, but that's all still in there either way.
I didn't make that all up. It's literally in the movie. The movie doesn't feel the need to put itself on pause to dumb itself down and explain everything that's happening like most other movies these days do, it trusts its audience to be able to keep up with events as they're happening, and that's totally what's happening throughout.
They enter the Enchanted Forest, and almost immediately they start getting messed with, as we see during Olaf's song. The wind spirit then directly attacks them, Elsa uses her powers to protect Anna, then the wind spirit turns its attention exclusively on Elsa. Elsa is able to overpower it, then the wind spirit becomes friendly.
Gale then proceeds to help them along their journey, such as blowing the wind towards the ship, moving them in the right direction, because it knows who she is and where she's going.
We see this happen again with the fire spirit, who then upon realizing who Elsa is, turns towards the voice calling out to her, then looks back at Elsa, urging her to follow, as it acknowledges who she is and where she's going.
And while she's not explicitly protecting anyone against the water nokk during their duel, she again succeeds in overpowering it using her powers, taming it in the moment, as it acknowledges her abilities and who she is, and as such, takes her to Ahtohallan.
This all literally happens in the movie. I made precisely none of it up.
I should note with this point, a lot of the stuff I'm describing wasn't immediately apparent to me as well. But that's one of the things I love about the movie, is how it gives you a lot to ponder over, and then when you revisit it, you start to see those pieces fitting together that didn't quite make sense before. It treats its audience's intelligence with a level of respect that is just unheard of in a movie like this nowadays, where it gives you all the answers, presents a bit of a puzzle, and trusts that you'll be able to fit it all together. And sure enough, yeah, it all fits, it all makes sense, and literally every single "plot hole" I've heard someone bring up is something that actually does have an answer somewhere in the film. It's just not always through dialogue or explicit exposition. There's tons of lyrical clues, visual clues, off-handed clues. Like, there's so much detail in this movie, and it's so well thought out, there's no way this can be described as a cash grab.
Hell...
Yeah, way too much heart and effort went into this level of storytelling for it to in any way be described as a soulless cash grab of a film. And that's just a breakdown of the last act, this level of poetic storytelling is strung all throughout this thing.
Yeh none of THAT is made up. But "acknowledge her, and come to recognize who she is as such" is made up by you. You just changed your argument so you could say "I didn't make it up" Taming is not "acknowledging".
Well your point doesn't make sense then. Every story needs a conflict. Otherwise you'll get something like Leviathan (2012). Frozen 2 the conflict is a mystery so therefor I have no sense of motivation. We are just brought to set piece to set piece and stuff just happens.
Time between films doesn't matter.
Well shes talking to herself (or Olaf) and they solve (what could have been) a pretty big conflict in the matter of seconds. Lazy.
She pushes her sister away in a frozen canoe after her "woes me". Her character does the same thing in the first film. Would have liked SOME development here.
No, it very well could have happened. It was just very poorly executed and explained. I'm not re-watching the film so I can study why Elsa gets herself frozen on some magic island. It shouldn't be that deep.
They did acknowledge her, though. That part's not made up either, and is in fact still covered by my further explanation.
A voice is calling out to Elsa. She rejects the call initially, but as soon as she accepts it, shit hits the fan, and they discover that a wrong from their past demands to be righted. So they set out to answer the call and, in turn, right that wrong from their past. Our motivation is to discover who it is that's calling out to them, why they've done to the village what they did, and what mystery from their past needs to be corrected. I don't see the issue here.
Plenty of films don't have clear antagonists. The original Toy Story, the antagonist is Woody's insecurity. Sid is a villainous character towards the characters, but not the core villain of the story, just another obstacle they have to overcome along their journey.
Inside Out, the antagonist is Riley's depression. We follow her emotions of Joy and Sadness as they journey through her head to discover how to turn her emotions back on, after she's shut them out. There's no clear central villain as we follow them along, and they gradually discover the answer they've been looking for.
That's just a couple of examples off the very top of my head.
They went into the forest knowing that the wrong that demanded to be righted had to do with the dam.
She's sent a memory showing that the dam wasn't a gift, but a trick used to attack the Northulda people off guard.
How much runtime would be enough time for the movie to pointlessly waste on her putting two and two together in order for you to not consider it lazy?
Literally already covered this in my first response to you. And here it is again:
And when else does this happen in the movie, to where you refer to it as a common theme? It's not. Anna doesn't want to lose Elsa, but in her desperation to keep Elsa from putting herself in harms way, she in turn keeps putting herself (Anna) in danger. And unlike Elsa, Anna doesn't have powers to protect herself in these situations. So when Elsa pushes Anna away at the end, she's doing exactly as Anna has been. She's protecting Anna from herself. They did try talking it out. Anna's emotions got the better of her, and she wouldn't see where Elsa was coming from. So, Elsa takes matters into her own hands and makes it so Anna can't follow along and, as such, put herself in harm's way.
And I don't expect you to. But I for one appreciate that the movie's as deep as it is, whether people want to give it credit for such or not. So many movies these days are so instantly forgettable for me, in one ear out the other, and I can't help but feel like most of what I got out of them is a waste of two hours of my life. So when I stumble upon something like this that not only actually stays with me, but encourages me to revisit it and rewards me for my efforts, yeah, it makes for a far more worthwhile experience, in my opinion.
In any event, I am glad you still gave it a shot, even though I'm pretty sure both you and I already knew going in that you probably weren't going to like it. And while we wildly disagree on the movie, I will say that I'm quite enjoying finally having someone engage in an actual conversation about it outside of the diehard fanbase.
Last edited by TGM; 02-19-2020 at 07:25 PM.
Elsa keeps the voices away from her sister.
Elsa runs away from the group when they enter the forest.
Anna runs away from Kristof after the botched proposal.
Olaf disappears so he can sing a song.
Elsa runs into fire by herself. Kristof/Anna run away from Elsa leaving her to fight the fire. There's even dialog around this.
Elsa / Anna run away from the group when they think Kristof "left". Gimme a break.
Elsa pushes Anna away in the frozen canoe.
Common enough for ya?
Here's the dialog.
"Elsa found it... the truth about the past. The dam wasn't a gift of peace, it was a trick"
LOL WUT?
"I know how to free the forest. I know what I have to do. To set things right."
Yes, and? She just fixed her relationship with her sister, and is afraid of ruining things again. What's the issue here?
She doesn't run away. None of them do. They all kinda wander around admiring their new setting. Nobody explicitly runs away from anyone else when they enter the forest, though.
K, and? What's the issue here?
They don't leave because he left. They're in a hurry, because the longer they stay, the more danger they place everyone in, because Elsa is attracting the spirits to her. This is why the earth giants are roaming about in that vicinity, even though the characters state that they should be roaming around elsewhere during this time of night.
Kristoff being left behind is a happenstance, not a cause, and it's one that plays into his own story, where he's dealing with his own issues of insecurity.
You keep listing things that happen, and I keep being confused by how any of these are in any way flaws in the movie. :\
They're all examples of the party just randomly dispersing for no logical reason. The script just needs them to. Most of those go back my original statement of why Elsa hasn't learned anything from the first film. That's how we end up here. So you don't need to breakdown every example. It's a common trope in the film that doesn't work to it's benefit.
And here's the set-up:
A frozen memory appears, showing King Runeard attacking the Northuldra leader off guard, as the Northulda leader's voice can be heard saying that the dam is hurting the forest.
Dur... wHaT cOuLd ThAt MeAn?!?
Except that there is logic behind all of those examples. Where is this lack of logic that you speak of?
And here you continue to say that Elsa's not learned anything from the first film, yet you have yet to deliver a single piece of actual evidence from the movie that supports this claim. Literally every example you've shared is, in fact, an example that shows her growth since the first movie, yet you're using it as evidence that she somehow hasn't grown?
Ugh, another prime of example of TERRIBLE execution. You can barely make out what he's saying.And here's the set-up:
A frozen memory appears, showing King Runeard attacking the Northuldra leader off guard, as the Northulda leader's voice can be heard saying that the dam is hurting the forest.
Dur... wHaT cOuLd ThAt MeAn?!?
Here's what it sounds like to me.
"She dare! So Weak <inaudible> So they will have to turn to me. <inaudible> hurting the forest!".
Gooling the script I can now see it says
You see, the Dam will weaken their lands
So they will have to turn to me
King Runeard, the Dam is hurting the forest!
Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.c...ovie=frozen-ii
I never had an issue hearing any of the dialogue in that scene. Sounds more like an issue with your sound system or setups than the movie. *shrug*
I've already explained this.
"This is my fault, they were
looking for answers about me"
You are not responsible
for their choices, Elsa
"No, just their deaths"
Stop. No
It's the same.
Heh, the person cut the scene entirely out of this video because the dialog is completely indistinguishable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY1lxVFuqhE
Except that my explanation that I've now posted twice completely disputes your claims that it's the same.
What she's experiencing is a very human reaction for a person to have in a moment such as this. This isn't character regression. It's realistic depiction. And that she's able to pick herself back up and keep moving forward so quickly afterwards shows just how much she's grown, and how much confidence she's gained since the first movie.
This wasn't how you watched the movie, was it? Because, you know, this is one of those clips where they cut out about 10 or so seconds every 10 or so seconds in, in order to not get caught for posting copyright material. :\
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