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Thread: HBO Max and Discovery?

  1. #101
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I

    Fun fact: During WWII, the Nazis employed Lost Cause mythology in their propaganda, telling people that the Allies would do to their towns what Sherman did to Atlanta. They printed this shit in bulk and distributed it all over Europe. Eventually, it made its way back to neo-Confederate groups in the States. Think about that for sec
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    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
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    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  2. #102
    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I'm not sure how this refutes my claim that contemporary reviewers treat films in masculine genres (and directors associated primarily with them, like Fincher) more seriously than genres coded as feminine such as melodrama, since film noir--and by extension, neo-noir, including Gone Girl--is, I would argue, very much a man's genre.
    I think you're starting from a faulty premise, because the idea of gendered genres is all but meaningless now. Contemporary cinema's idea of a "chick flick" is to put Charlize Theron or Scarlett Johansson in a cat suit and have them dual wield pistols while kicking Eastern Europeans in the face.

    More seriously, I think your angle ignores how "women's pictures" gradually migrated to television, first as soap operas and sitcoms, but more especially in the last decade, and that "contemporary reviewers" are fairly split along gender lines as well. (I could more easily name a half dozen female TV critics than their male counterparts in film criticism.)

    Ie, the critical reception of "Scandal," "Girls," "Killing Eve," "Fleabag," "Unbelievable," and "Normal People" refutes most of your post.

  3. #103
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    So my question is: If contemporary society can, for example, toss away D.W. Griffith, excise racist elements out Looney Tunes, and mothball "Song of the South," then why can't we see "Gone with the Wind" for exactly what it is?
    I don't get this. I don't think Griffith is "tossed away" by anyone whose opinion matters, and if it is, well then that's a disturbing, wrong attitude. I think most film buffs see Gone with the Wind for exactly what it is - a milestone of cinema that betrays the racist views of its creators. That racism is 10.000 times subtler than the KKK sequence in Birth of a Nation and the film's language as a whole is more comfortable for modern audiences, so it remains a more popular watch. But what would "tossed away" even mean in the case of Birth of a Nation?

    I thought WB had not censored its digital releases of Looney Tunes but added text like they plan to do with Gone with the Wind.

  4. #104
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I'm not sure how this refutes my claim that contemporary reviewers treat films in masculine genres (and directors associated primarily with them, like Fincher) more seriously than genres coded as feminine such as melodrama, since film noir--and by extension, neo-noir, including Gone Girl--is, I would argue, very much a man's genre.
    What are some modern-day melodramas in American cinema? I think the genre is alive and well in India and Korea but I can't find anything in contemporary Hollywood that reminds me of the movies of Douglas Sirk and Max Ophuls. It is pretty much Almodóvar's genre of choice and his movies earn critical acclaim.

    I think a lot of genres are usually considered minor and so don't get long running times, but I'm not sure if the split is strictly gendered. There are few three hour chick flicks like there are few three hour Adam Sandler comedies.

  5. #105
    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    What are some modern-day melodramas in American cinema? I think the genre is alive and well in India and Korea but I can't find anything in contemporary Hollywood that reminds me of the movies of Douglas Sirk and Max Ophuls. It is pretty much Almodóvar's genre of choice and his movies earn critical acclaim.

    I think a lot of genres are usually considered minor and so don't get long running times, but I'm not sure if the split is strictly gendered. There are few three hour chick flicks like there are few three hour Adam Sandler comedies.
    Funny People is 146 minutes--not three hours, I grant you, but pretty long. Moreover, although there are undoubtedly male-oriented genres considered minor, it's not the case that all male-oriented genres are considered minor by default.

    As for modern-day melodramas in the US, the first name that comes to mind is Tyler Perry (although I haven't actually seen any of his films). Of course, that's not counting male-dominated melodramas like The Deer Hunter, Brokeback Mountain, and Paul Haggis' Crash (to cite only the first three titles that come to mind).
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  6. #106
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I think you're starting from a faulty premise, because the idea of gendered genres is all but meaningless now. Contemporary cinema's idea of a "chick flick" is to put Charlize Theron or Scarlett Johansson in a cat suit and have them dual wield pistols while kicking Eastern Europeans in the face.

    More seriously, I think your angle ignores how "women's pictures" gradually migrated to television, first as soap operas and sitcoms, but more especially in the last decade, and that "contemporary reviewers" are fairly split along gender lines as well. (I could more easily name a half dozen female TV critics than their male counterparts in film criticism.)

    Ie, the critical reception of "Scandal," "Girls," "Killing Eve," "Fleabag," "Unbelievable," and "Normal People" refutes most of your post.
    It's certainly true that the woman's film migrated to television, both in the United States and Japan, although even within television, there's still some distance in critical reputation between the shows you cite (of which I'm only familiar with the first seasons of Girls and Fleabag) and those of The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, and even Mad Men. In other words, although one could plausibly claim that there's more variety in television in terms of content (although I would hasten to add that stylistically television is even more boringly uniform than contemporary American cinema), it seems less plausible to assert that television reviewers (male and female) don't share the many of the same assumptions as film reviewers.
    Just because...
    Devi (Satyajit Ray, 1960) mild
    The French Dispatch of the Liberty, Kansas Evening Sun (Wes Anderson, 2021) warm
    High Sierra (Raoul Walsh, 1941) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Anne Brontė


    The (New) World

  7. #107
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    It's not that complicated. "Gone with the Wind" is part of a concerted effort to revise the historical record in favor of the South. This stuff didn't happen on its own (Google "United Daughters of the Confederacy.")

    Imagine flat-earthers or Holocaust-deniers won over public opinion, and won big for over a century. So much so that they're able to re-write school textbooks, change state flags, and place monuments around the country. All of which reinforces their bullshit for generations on generations.

    That's the sort of legacy we're talking about, and "Gone with a the Wind" is a major part of it. (Other recognizable parts include "The Clansman" and "Birth of a Nation.")

    This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't so popular, and part of the reason it remains popular is the sketchy way it deals with race.

    So my question is: If contemporary society can, for example, toss away D.W. Griffith, excise racist elements out Looney Tunes, and mothball "Song of the South," then why can't we see "Gone with the Wind" for exactly what it is?

    Because this film, more than anything else in the 20th century, is probably responsible for extending the shelf life on "Lost Cause" nonsense by a good 50 or 60 years. At least. All on its own.

    Fun fact: During WWII, the Nazis employed Lost Cause mythology in their propaganda, telling people that the Allies would do to their towns what Sherman did to Atlanta. They printed this shit in bulk and distributed it all over Europe. Eventually, it made its way back to neo-Confederate groups in the States. Think about that for sec
    It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to say what the concrete impact of Gone with the Wind has been in terms of upholding white supremacy. After all, white supremacy doesn't exist because Gone with the Wind is popular; Gone with the Wind is popular in part because of the unevenness of American society between North and South, which existed before the war and continues up till the present, hence the enduring appeal of the film's mythologized portrayal of the prewar South for many white Americans. Mothballing the film wouldn't do anything to change the underlying dynamics of US society. Moreover, even if one were to concede that The Birth of a Nation, The General, Gone with the Wind, The Song of the South, The Searchers, etc. all had a concrete, negative impact on race relations in the United States, that doesn't necessarily mean the films aren't interesting or that there aren't good reasons for watching them today (including entertainment value).
    Just because...
    Devi (Satyajit Ray, 1960) mild
    The French Dispatch of the Liberty, Kansas Evening Sun (Wes Anderson, 2021) warm
    High Sierra (Raoul Walsh, 1941) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Anne Brontė


    The (New) World

  8. #108
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to say what the concrete impact of Gone with the Wind has been in terms of upholding white supremacy. After all, white supremacy doesn't exist because Gone with the Wind is popular; Gone with the Wind is popular in part because of the unevenness of American society between North and South, which existed before the war and continues up till the present, hence the enduring appeal of the film's mythologized portrayal of the prewar South for many white Americans. Mothballing the film wouldn't do anything to change the underlying dynamics of US society. Moreover, even if one were to concede that The Birth of a Nation, The General, Gone with the Wind, The Song of the South, The Searchers, etc. all had a concrete, negative impact on race relations in the United States, that doesn't necessarily mean the films aren't interesting or that there aren't good reasons for watching them today (including entertainment value).
    Agreed, but I can't remember where The General touches on race relations, unless you just mean that short scene where Keaton's character tries to join the South to impress his girl. And throwing The Searchers on the same paragraph is unfair - however you feel about John Ford in general, that is a movie ABOUT racism.

  9. #109
    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    there's still some distance in critical reputation between the shows you cite
    "Fleabag" has a better reviewed first season than either "Breaking Bad" or "Mad Men." "Unbelievable" and "Normal People" both have reviews above "Breaking Bad."

    We're talking between 89%-100% here, going by RT. That doesn't seem like much distance.

    (As a secondary consideration: "Fleabag" also won more Emmys than "Madmen," even though "Fleabag's" entire run was smaller than one of "Man Men's" seasons.)

    it seems less plausible to assert that television reviewers (male and female) don't share the many of the same assumptions as film reviewers.
    I don't know why we'd assume that, especially as some reviewers pull double duty (eg: Matt Zoller Seitz, who reviews movies for RogerEbert.com and television for Vulture.)
    Last edited by Irish; 06-18-2020 at 08:22 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    "Fleabag" has a better reviewed first season than either "Breaking Bad" or "Mad Men." "Unbelievable" and "Normal People" both have reviews above "Breaking Bad."

    We're talking between 89%-100% here, going by RT. That doesn't seem like much distance.

    (As a secondary consideration: "Fleabag" also won more Emmys than "Madmen," even though "Fleabag's" entire run was smaller than one of "Man Men's" seasons.)
    I was thinking less of the Tomato-meter than my sense that The Sopranos, The Wire, and Breaking Bad are the shows TV reviewers go to make the case that television can be Great Art on par with the 19th century novel.
    Just because...
    Devi (Satyajit Ray, 1960) mild
    The French Dispatch of the Liberty, Kansas Evening Sun (Wes Anderson, 2021) warm
    High Sierra (Raoul Walsh, 1941) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Anne Brontė


    The (New) World

  11. #111
    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    Agreed, but I can't remember where The General touches on race relations, unless you just mean that short scene where Keaton's character tries to join the South to impress his girl. And throwing The Searchers on the same paragraph is unfair - however you feel about John Ford in general, that is a movie ABOUT racism.
    I wasn't trying to suggest that either of those films as racist as Gone with the Wind, only that they're "problematic" by contemporary standards: The General because it sidesteps the issue of slavery altogether and portrays the Union soldiers as underhanded villains, The Searchers particularly in the scenes with Look, who's portrayed as a stereotypical "dumb Indian."
    Just because...
    Devi (Satyajit Ray, 1960) mild
    The French Dispatch of the Liberty, Kansas Evening Sun (Wes Anderson, 2021) warm
    High Sierra (Raoul Walsh, 1941) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Anne Brontė


    The (New) World

  12. #112
    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to say what the concrete impact of Gone with the Wind has been in terms of upholding white supremacy.
    White supremacy is a characteristic of the Lost Cause. They're one in the same; there's no separating the two. Selling people on the idea of a noble and honorable Confederacy makes selling shit like Jim Crow easier to do.

    Since I know you dig footnotes: David W. Blight (2001). Race and Reunion: The Civil War in American Memory. Harvard University Press. p. 259

    Mothballing the film wouldn't do anything to change the underlying dynamics of US society
    Weird how people are pulling down those physical monuments right now tho huh

  13. #113
    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I was thinking less of the Tomato-meter than my sense that The Sopranos, The Wire, and Breaking Bad are the shows TV reviewers go to make the case that television can be Great Art on par with the 19th century novel.
    Your argument narrows and narrows.

    It should go without saying your examples were on cable for years, with multi-year gaps between seasons, and were thus in the popular imagination for a long time.

    It's hard to compare them to shows that appeared this year on streaming services --- but even still, given their popularity and critical success I don't think anyone can definitively say that "contemporary reviews" take men's stories more seriously than women's stories.

    PS: If you think books buttress your argument, I can point you to titles & collections about "Desperate Housewives" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" published years before "Mad Men" and "Breaking Bad" appeared.

  14. #114
    Cya all later MadMan's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    I remember rooting for her for most of film and losing all sympathy in third act. I didnt gain any sympathy for Afflecks character either btw, I just left the film feeling like they were both assholes and one was a murderer.

    Now I need to rewatch, dammit Madman, you're killing me.
    My take is he drove her insane by being a cheating asshole. I don't think of her as a hero, but I certainly understand her. And yes I want to rewatch it as well. Certainly one of Fincher's more interesting movies in terms of the male v female power dynamic. I imagine he also covered that with The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo but I haven't see that one or the original.
    Last edited by MadMan; 06-18-2020 at 10:20 PM.

  15. #115
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Your argument narrows and narrows.

    It should go without saying your examples were on cable for years, with multi-year gaps between seasons, and were thus in the popular imagination for a long time.

    It's hard to compare them to shows that appeared this year on streaming services --- but even still, given their popularity and critical success I don't think anyone can definitively say that "contemporary reviews" take men's stories more seriously than women's stories.

    PS: If you think books buttress your argument, I can point you to titles & collections about "Desperate Housewives" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" published years before "Mad Men" and "Breaking Bad" appeared.
    I defer to your superior knowledge about television and the literature on it (a topic I'm not especially well versed in), but to return to the main point: Granting your objection that female-centred melodrama continues to thrive on American television, and that such programs are recognized by reviewers and the industry, does that refute my overall claim that reviewers and the industry take genres coded as masculine more seriously than genres coded as feminine? I would argue not since television, despite the strides it's made in recent years, is still a less prestigious medium than film. When the Society of Cinema and Media Studies had their annual conference in Toronto two years ago, I attended a talk where the panelists were all kvetching about how television studies is ghettoized in academia, how online journals count for less than print journals in a tenure case and most of the television journals are online, and how the concept of "prestige" television is always conflated with "cinematic" production values. Film continues to be the more culturally prestigious medium despite its declining popularity because a two-hour-plus film is still visibly more expensive to produce than a one-hour television program (Tom Cruise doesn't do TV) and because viewers invest more time, money, and effort in watching a film than a TV show (you actually have to leave your house, or at least you did pre-pandemic).
    Just because...
    Devi (Satyajit Ray, 1960) mild
    The French Dispatch of the Liberty, Kansas Evening Sun (Wes Anderson, 2021) warm
    High Sierra (Raoul Walsh, 1941) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Anne Brontė


    The (New) World

  16. #116
    Cya all later MadMan's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    I'm not sure how this refutes my claim that contemporary reviewers treat films in masculine genres (and directors associated primarily with them, like Fincher) more seriously than genres coded as feminine such as melodrama, since film noir--and by extension, neo-noir, including Gone Girl--is, I would argue, very much a man's genre. After all, the danger of the femme fatale is that she acts like a man and thus represents a threat to traditional gender roles. This is also true, to a certain extent, of Scarlett O'Hara (whom one could argue is a proto-noir heroine: "Well, I guess I've done murder"), although her emotionalism, and the film's colour and lighting scheme, offset this somewhat: Hence, her comeuppance is that she gets dumped rather than murdered. Gone Girl is critically respectable at two and a half hours not only because it gives equal or more weight to the Ben Affleck character (who, for all his flaws, is still something like the moral centre of the film, and in any case, it's Affleck on the poster, not Rosamund Pike), but because it's female co-protagonist is a sociopath, which is the opposite of hysterical. In other words, even though it's based on a novel by a woman and features a female co-protagonist, generically speaking it's not a "woman's film" in the sense that Imitation of Life, Letter from an Unknown Woman, and Stella Dallas are women's films.
    My point is that what GOTW did was not really that original or novel. And that I have no problem watching a movie where the female character is just as problematic as a male one would be. Now Johnny Guitar featured a woman character who was downright evil, but I chalk that up to her refusing to admit she loved an outlaw.

  17. #117
    Cya all later MadMan's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    Anyway...

    Why is Lex Luthor whispering? Meh.
    Last edited by MadMan; 06-18-2020 at 10:26 PM.

  18. #118
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting MadMan (view post)
    My take is he drove her insane by being a cheating asshole. I don't think of her as a hero, but I certainly understand her. And yes I want to rewatch it as well. Certainly one of Fincher's more interesting movies in terms of the male v female power dynamic. I imagine he also covered that with The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo but I haven't see that one or the original.
    Without getting too spoilery for you, the difference is one is cheater (GG) and the other rapist (TGWTDT). I can get behind the female power dynamic of TGWTDT, but in GG she literally murders a guy because of reasons? Because her husband did something that wasn't illegal? Because her feelings were hurt? Even faking her death to frame him for her murder is an overreaction imo. Who hasn't had someone cheat on them? And its not like they were married for 30 years and had 3 kids and all that...maybe I could buy into the mental break at that point, but as the movie has it, she just seemed like a vindictive psycho.

  19. #119
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    White supremacy is a characteristic of the Lost Cause. They're one in the same; there's no separating the two. Selling people on the idea of a noble and honorable Confederacy makes selling shit like Jim Crow easier to do.

    Since I know you dig footnotes: David W. Blight (2001). Race and Reunion: The Civil War in American Memory. Harvard University Press. p. 259

    Weird how people are pulling down those physical monuments right now tho huh
    Again, as with Gone with the Wind, I would argue that the statues in themselves don't perpetuate white supremacy but are merely reflective of attitudes that were pervasive at the time they were erected (namely, that slave traders were fine people). They're coming down now because there's been a massive shift in public sentiment away from honouring dead slave traders, although I don't think anybody believes taking down a statue will stop police from brutalizing black people to enforce de facto segregation.
    Just because...
    Devi (Satyajit Ray, 1960) mild
    The French Dispatch of the Liberty, Kansas Evening Sun (Wes Anderson, 2021) warm
    High Sierra (Raoul Walsh, 1941) mild

    The last book I read was...
    The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Anne Brontė


    The (New) World

  20. #120

    July 9.
    Last Seen:​
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    Amphibia, S3A (M. Braly, 2021) ☆
    Michael Clayton (T. Gilroy, 2007)
    Uzaki-chan Wants to Hang Out!, S1 (K. Miura, 2020) ☆
    Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, S8 (J. Oliver, 2021) ☆
    Animaniacs (2020), S2 (W. Wild, S. Spielberg, 2021) ☆
    True Detective, S3 (N. Pizzolatto, 2019)
    Sailor Moon Eternal: The Movie, Part 2 (C. Kon, 2021) ☆
    Inside Job, S1 (S. Takeuchi, 2021) ☆
    The Exorcist (W. Friedkin, 1973) ☆

    First time ☆

  21. #121
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting MadMan (view post)
    Why is Lex Luthor whispering? Meh.
    Isn't that scene from him in jail?
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  22. #122
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting MadMan (view post)
    Now Johnny Guitar featured a woman character who was downright evil, but I chalk that up to her refusing to admit she loved an outlaw.
    Genuinely confused by this. You are talking about the antagonist, right? Because Vienna is awesome - she's not evil.

    EDIT: Never mind, just read your review.
    Last edited by Grouchy; 06-18-2020 at 11:14 PM.

  23. #123
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Isn't that scene from him in jail?
    Yes that VO is from Lex talking to Batman in jail at end of BVS

  24. #124
    Last Seen:​
    Arcane: League of Legends (C. Linke/A. Yee, 2021) ☆
    Amphibia, S3A (M. Braly, 2021) ☆
    Michael Clayton (T. Gilroy, 2007)
    Uzaki-chan Wants to Hang Out!, S1 (K. Miura, 2020) ☆
    Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, S8 (J. Oliver, 2021) ☆
    Animaniacs (2020), S2 (W. Wild, S. Spielberg, 2021) ☆
    True Detective, S3 (N. Pizzolatto, 2019)
    Sailor Moon Eternal: The Movie, Part 2 (C. Kon, 2021) ☆
    Inside Job, S1 (S. Takeuchi, 2021) ☆
    The Exorcist (W. Friedkin, 1973) ☆

    First time ☆

  25. #125
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    So I guess they added Batman v Superman Ultimate Edition on this platform. Have I seen that version? Or is that new to the platform only?
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

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