Avengers: Endgame (Russo Bros)

[Ezee E]

I believe so, but I'm unsure how exactly he gets back some of them to their original place. Like the soul gem? The reality gem?

My followup question.

But also, to get it even more complicated, does this mean the "snap" doesn't even happen since that Thanos escaped his own timeline to go into the future to be killed, so as to not be able to gather the stones at all?

[Peng]

I think the two time travel convo are the key, one where Avengers is working it out and another from the Ancient One, especially the latter which sets the rule as changes in the past mean time branching out into another reality rather than changing their present.

[Peng]

And man, I can't believe the first time I ever cried in one of these things would be from Gwyneth Paltrow. But she's so quietly superb in that scene; Pepper just barely putting on a brave face so Tony would go in peace damn broke me. (And then Cap's ending makes me think of Stephen King's 11/22/63; since I cried at that, so I did at this too lol)

[Dukefrukem]

My followup question.

But also, to get it even more complicated, does this mean the "snap" doesn't even happen since that Thanos escaped his own timeline to go into the future to be killed, so as to not be able to gather the stones at all?

No. Remember this isn't Back to the Future time travel. You can't change the past from the point you are currently at.

[Ezee E]

No. Remember this isn't Back to the Future time travel. You can't change the past from the point you are currently at.

Then why even have to bring back the stones then?

[Dukefrukem]

Then why even have to bring back the stones then?

Bringing the stones back to the present? To undo the snap in the present.

[Lazlo]

Bringing the stones back to the present? To undo the snap in the present.

I think he might be asking why Cap (or anyone) had to take the stones back to where they found them. I guess because of the Ruffalo/Swinton branching timeline conversation?

[Mr. McGibblets]

I feel like they made it seem that Steve was able to put everything back in the last scene, but two of three places that they time-traveled to would have split off and formed alternate timelines. The only one that they didn't mess up was Asgard.

[Dukefrukem]

I think he might be asking why Cap (or anyone) had to take the stones back to where they found them. I guess because of the Ruffalo/Swinton branching timeline conversation?

Oh yeh. That was part of the deal why the Ancient One gave up the stone. There would be consequences for the past timeline even though the present timeline would be saved.

[Skitch]

I remain utterly confused.

[Dukefrukem]

I remain utterly confused.

Think of each timeline as it's own entity and once you change something, that becomes it's own tangent, but would not impact the present.

[Wryan]

What to make of the moment when Tony and his dad are in the elevator and Tony has this weird moment where he questions, with some visual concern, how far along his mom is and talking to his dad about it? Almost felt like they were going to do something with that, and then they didn't. Am I supposed to take some other meaning from that? Like...second kid or adoption or...something? Weird moment.

[Ezee E]

Oh yeh. That was part of the deal why the Ancient One gave up the stone. There would be consequences for the past timeline even though the present timeline would be saved.

But again, the past timeline is completely different since Thanos/Gamora aren't even there. Right? So there isn't a snap.

[Skitch]

Think of each timeline as it's own entity and once you change something, that becomes it's own tangent, but would not impact the present.

Then how in the world are we supposed to believe they undid anything?

[DavidSeven]

Hulk defines the rules early on: you cannot change your present by altering the past. There may be an alternate reality where the "snap" doesn't occur because Thanos isn't there to do it, but with respect to the current timeline, it's all already happened and that can never be changed. The Avengers didn't "undo" anything via time travel; they only traveled time to collect the stones and bring them back to the present time, so they could do their own "snap" to reverse the dusting.

As a condition of giving up a stone, Swinton's character makes Hulk promise to return the stones when the mission is complete, because their continued existence through time is somehow crucial to maintaining the stability of reality as we know it. Thus, an Avenger makes one final trip back in time to return the stones to the exact point in which they were taken.

[Dukefrukem]

Then how in the world are we supposed to believe they undid anything?

But again, the past timeline is completely different since Thanos/Gamora aren't even there. Right? So there isn't a snap.

You guys are totally overthinking this timeline stuff. Back to the Future has ruined you.


David gets it.

[Skitch]

I'm not overthinking it. They WAY overexplained it with rules that are either difficult to understand or don't make logical sense (to be determined).

Hulk defines the rules early on: you cannot change your present by altering the past. There may be an alternate reality where the "snap" doesn't occur because Thanos isn't there to do it, but with respect to the current timeline, it's all already happened and that can never be changed. The Avengers didn't "undo" anything via time travel; they only traveled time to collect the stones and bring them back to the present time, so they could do their own "snap" to reverse the dusting.

So...they created a new timeline? Because in taking the stones from the past they created new timelines, right? Even if they returned them to the same time it was still an alteration.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm not overthinking it. They WAY overexplained it with rules that are either difficult to understand or don't make logical sense (to be determined).



So...they created a new timeline? Because in taking the stones from the past they created new timelines, right? Even if they returned them to the same time it was still an alteration.

Not if they returned them 5 seconds after they took them. Why does this question even need to be answered? It's totally irrelevant to the story.

[Skitch]

Or its 100% critical to the story because the writers went on in detail about how you can't change the past and any attempt to do so just creates a time sideline.

[DavidSeven]

So...they created a new timeline? Because in taking the stones from the past they created new timelines, right? Even if they returned them to the same time it was still an alteration.

It's possible, though I think the existence of alternate timelines and the conditions for creating them is the vaguest part of the film's "science." But I'm guessing they just didn't want to bog the audience down with those types of details. The big message is that you can't change the past of your own timeline, but you can bring objects (infinity stones) and people from the past into the present.

[Skitch]

I think I'm starting to get it. I need to watch it a few more times (and I will of course). After a first watch though...I felt as confused as when I first watched Primer. And I felt it really didn't have to be that way for an Avengers movie. All the non-time travel bits I was fine with, just felt like they went out of their way to make that part of it needlessly overcomplicated.

Thanks David.

[Watashi]

If anything, Endgame has me pumped to see what Marvel Studios does next. I bet the next year, we go small with Black Widow, Eternals, and Shang-Chi before we jump into big sequels like Black Panther 2 and Doctor Strange 2.

Honestly Chloe Zhao's Eternals is the Marvel movie I'm most excited to see.

[Ezee E]

I mean, I definitely get that the reality the team is currently in is fine, I just don't understand why the stones need to be returned except to really make sure they're never used again. I just wouldn't think Captain America would be able to live the way he did by staying in the past.

I'm playing devil's advocate more than anything.

[Dukefrukem]

I mean, what would you prefer them do with the stones? Destroy them so they could never be used again? Keep them together in a new Avengers base? That's really the only two options.

[Dukefrukem]

I guess I stand corrected.

If Cap were to go back into the past and live there, he would create a branched reality, "The question then becomes, how is he back in this reality to give the shield away? Interesting question, right? Maybe there’s a story there. There’s a lot of layers built into this movie and we spent three years thinking through it, so it’s fun to talk about it and hopefully fill in holes for people so they understand what we’re thinking.