Attack-Free Unpopular Opinion Thread

[Skitch]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but Disney's 2010's renaissance > Disney's 90's renaissance.

Interesting! Does this include Pixar?

[PURPLE]

Regarding Greek Tragedy, here's what Aristotle writes in the Poetics:



In short, ancient Greek audiences derived pleasure from tragic plays (they were after all performed at festivals, not as punishments for naughty children), and for Aristotle, pleasure and instruction are inseparable.

Of course, it's possible that abstract contemplation is equal or superior to pleasure, instruction, etc., but you've yet to provide any compelling evidence that this is so, or that certain films are better suited for this purpose than others, or indeed why films are necessary for this activity to take place at all. Your argument, if I understand you correctly, is that in your experience Mother and Son is particularly fertile in terms of contemplation because it contains Quality X. What this Quality X is that differentiates Sokurov's film from numerous others treating similar themes at a comparably slow pace has not been established, and if I follow your logic, can't be established by examining the film closely because the whole point of contemplative cinema is that we aren't supposed to contemplate it in the sense of looking closely at something for a extended duration of time (which I take to be the purpose of all cinema, fast or slow).

lol evidence in a subjective conversation about art. Done with this conversation.

[Watashi]

Interesting! Does this include Pixar?

Nope.

90's Renaissance:
The Little Mermaid
Beauty and the Beast
Aladdin
The Lion King
Pocahontas
Hunchback of Notre Dame
Hercules
Mulan
Tarzan

2010's Renaissance:
Princess and the Frog
Tangled
Winnie the Pooh
Wreck-It Ralph
Frozen
Big Hero 6
Zootopia
Moana
Ralph Breaks the Internet

I really don't like the two Ralph movies, but I like/love the rest.

I do think Beauty and the Beast is the best of the entire bunch.

[baby doll]

lol evidence in a subjective conversation about art. Done with this conversation.

lol using subjectivity as an escape clause because you're too intellectually lazy to support your claims

[Milky Joe]

does whiny passive aggressiveness count as an "attack" cuz I think you two might be breaking the rules

[Dead & Messed Up]

Nope.

90's Renaissance:
The Little Mermaid
Beauty and the Beast
Aladdin
The Lion King
Pocahontas
Hunchback of Notre Dame
Hercules
Mulan
Tarzan

2010's Renaissance:
Princess and the Frog
Tangled
Winnie the Pooh
Wreck-It Ralph
Frozen
Big Hero 6
Zootopia
Moana
Ralph Breaks the Internet

I really don't like the two Ralph movies, but I like/love the rest.

I do think Beauty and the Beast is the best of the entire bunch.

I'll give props to Tangled, though, for sure.

[Peng]

Let's see..

90's Renaissance:
The Little Mermaid - 7.5
Beauty and the Beast - 8.5
Aladdin - 7
The Lion King - 8
Pocahontas - 7.5
Hunchback of Notre Dame - 6.5 (this needs a rewatch tho)
Hercules - 6.5
Mulan - 8
Tarzan - 6

Shouldn't this include up to Lilo & Stitch? If in that case:

The Emperor's New Groove - 9
Atlantis: The Lost Empire - 6.5
Treasure Planet - 7
Lilo & Stich - 7


2010's Renaissance:
Princess and the Frog - 7
Tangled - 8
Winnie the Pooh - n/s
Wreck-It Ralph - 8
Frozen - 7
Big Hero 6 - 7
Zootopia - 7
Moana - 7
Ralph Breaks the Internet - 7

So the first Renaissance has lower lows, but also higher highs. Have to say though that apart from maybe Moana, their films starting from Frozen forward have some glib, easy, and somewhat transparently engineered emotional cores that don't sit easy with me, like watered-down Pixar without the thornier nuances. Somehow I keep coming back to Zootopia and its supposedly "pivotal" moment of Judy pulling her weapon on Nick after he pretended to scare her, which I saw coming a mile way and felt vaguely rankled by it when it happened. Dunno why, maybe it's because I felt condescended to.

[transmogrifier]

Who exactly are those thousands of film "lovers"? In any case, the very next line in the article I quoted is, "But of course not every difficult film is worth the time; many directors have visions interesting only to themselves, and some films are just plain bad." The substance of my disagreement with Purple is the basis according to which it is possible to distinguish between a good "slow" film and a bad one, as opposed to praising or rejecting them indiscriminately, which is simple philistinism.

But surely there is a point at which you just have to accept that the defining elements of a certain type of film (whether it be a particular genre, or sensibility, or whatever) may be of no inherent interest to you, and thus the criteria used by those who like that certain type of film to define good and bad are of no consequence.

I mean, taking a narrow example, think of the defining features of a Transformers film. I have no interest in those features even if they are executed correctly according those who profess to like them. Broader view, I have no interest in mainstream romantic comedies - even those ones that people who like the genre claim are "good" (and even those that I do like, such as Down By Love are doing something outside the standard expectations of the form).

Unless you are arguing that there are some types of film that cannot rejected indiscriminately and others that can because of some objective idea of what constitutes "worth" in an artistic sense? Which I would disagree with entirely. I'm more of the belief that anyone at any time has the freedom to dismiss a type of film as not their thing for whatever reasons they want and not be labeled a philistine for it - that should be reserved for those who have no concept of art in and of itself, not for those who have a clear understanding of what type of art speaks to them and that they enjoy interacting with.

[Skitch]

I do think Beauty and the Beast is the best of the entire bunch.

I would probably say Aladdin, but I don't see enough score variation in those films to argue against your original point at all.

[Dukefrukem]

Hmmm. Head to head... I guess you're right. (Bolded = 90s)

90's Renaissance:
The Little Mermaid
Beauty and the Beast
Aladdin
The Lion King
Pocahontas
Hunchback of Notre Dame
Hercules
Mulan
Tarzan

2010's Renaissance:
Princess and the Frog
Tangled
Winnie the Pooh
Wreck-It Ralph
Frozen
Big Hero 6
Zootopia
Moana
Ralph Breaks the Internet

I really don't like the two Ralph movies, but I like/love the rest.

I do think Beauty and the Beast is the best of the entire bunch.

The Little Mermaid > Princess and the Frog
Beauty and the Beast > Winnie the Pooh
Tangled > Pocahontas
Aladdin > Moana
The Lion King > Frozen
Big Hero 6 > Hunchback of Notre Dame
Zootopia > Hercules
Wreck-It Ralph > Mulan
Ralph Breaks the Internet (the only one I haven't seen so I'm making a big assumption but really not) > Tarzan

[Philip J. Fry]

Hercules is kind of bad.

[Philip J. Fry]

By the way, if you wanna talk about 90's Disney renaissance, you must include A Goofy Movie.

[megladon8]

Beauty and the Beast is the definitive correct answer to the following questions:

Best 90s Disney movie?
Best Disney movie period?
Top five animated films of all time?

[PURPLE]

lol using subjectivity as an escape clause because you're too intellectually lazy to support your claims

Whatever the case, I think you'll agree that no reasonable person would ever continue a conversation with someone that made the posts you've made. If your goal was to end the conversation, you've won! Congratulations!

[baby doll]

But surely there is a point at which you just have to accept that the defining elements of a certain type of film (whether it be a particular genre, or sensibility, or whatever) may be of no inherent interest to you, and thus the criteria used by those who like that certain type of film to define good and bad are of no consequence.

I mean, taking a narrow example, think of the defining features of a Transformers film. I have no interest in those features even if they are executed correctly according those who profess to like them. Broader view, I have no interest in mainstream romantic comedies - even those ones that people who like the genre claim are "good" (and even those that I do like, such as Down By Love are doing something outside the standard expectations of the form).

Unless you are arguing that there are some types of film that cannot rejected indiscriminately and others that can because of some objective idea of what constitutes "worth" in an artistic sense? Which I would disagree with entirely. I'm more of the belief that anyone at any time has the freedom to dismiss a type of film as not their thing for whatever reasons they want and not be labeled a philistine for it - that should be reserved for those who have no concept of art in and of itself, not for those who have a clear understanding of what type of art speaks to them and that they enjoy interacting with.

Not having seen any of the Transformers films, I can't speak to the strengths and limitations of the robot-cars from outer space sub-genre as a sub-genre, but I can say that mainstream romantic comedies vary pretty widely in quality, from classics like Trouble in Paradise and His Girl Friday to superior latter day examples (My Best Friend's Wedding, for instance) to films that are solidly entertaining (Trainwreck) to awful dreck (Crazy Rich Asians). Whether this is a genre in decline, and if so whether contemporary filmmakers are simply less imaginative than Lubitsch or Hawks, or whether after eighty-five years the genre has been exhausted and there's simply nothing left to be done with these conventions, is outside the parameters of this discussion. The issue I believe is whether it's permissible to look at a film like Trouble in Paradise and say, "I get what it's doing and it succeeds on that level, but witty, supremely entertaining films about the romantic problems of glamorous and sexy characters just aren't my cup of tea." That statement would I think pass muster as far as it goes (though it reveals more about the person making it than the films they're referring to), but if you were to go further and say, "Any film about the romantic problems of glamorous and sexy characters is inherently boring, no matter how well it's made," that would obviously be an idiotic comment to make.

Are some genres more resilient than others? I would agree with that. In fact, I think one of the strengths of art cinema as a mode of film production is that it incentivizes originality, so filmmakers are less likely to fall into the trap of doing the same thing over and over again (though God knows there are unimaginative art films, some of them very highly praised--e.g., "First Reformed").

[Skitch]

does whiny passive aggressiveness count as an "attack" cuz I think you two might be breaking the rules

Its really pushing the line.

[Philip J. Fry]

Skynet would annihilate the Death Eaters in an all-out war.

[MadMan]

Its really pushing the line.

When I see posters like that on this site, my response is literally:

[Dukefrukem]

Its really pushing the line.

We all break the rules once in a while. Isn't that right MJ? http://matchcut.artboiled.com/showth...l=1#post589542

[Grouchy]

This thread is now filled with popular opinions and personal attacks.

[Dead & Messed Up]

This thread is now filled with popular opinions and personal attacks.

Grouchy, I don't care what your dumbass says, The Dark Knight is good.

[

Show Spoiler

Is that it? Can we officially close the thread?

]

[Dead & Messed Up]

Here's a few.

My favorite NolanBatman is The Dark Knight Rises.

I didn't get into The Seven Samurai and liked The Magnificent Seven more.

Solaris and Alphaville were worth watching but only intermittently engaging.

[StanleyK]

I didn't get into The Seven Samurai and liked The Magnificent Seven more.

Same. Kurosawa is like Nolan for me, good filmmaker but his characters won't stop explaining the movie and it's very off-putting.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Same. Kurosawa is like Nolan for me, good filmmaker but his characters won't stop explaining the movie and it's very off-putting.

What held me back was more the repetitive nature of the film and how, outside Mifune, few of the characters lingered in the memory. I'm a big fan of what I've seen of his work otherwise.

[megladon8]

Soderbergh’s Solaris is so much better than Tarkovsky’s it’s not even funny.