Game of Thrones (The Final Season / 8 )

[Irish]

I just took it to mean she was reminding Arya that her destiny is to be a little stabby girl. That's it.

^ This.

"And what do we say to the god of death?"
"Not today."

Arya freaked out in the library and became more panicked as she tried to get away from the wights. The whole sequence was shot like a horror movie with her as the Final Girl.

Melisandre is basically telling her, "FFS, remember who are."

People are reading too much into the eye color thing. I took that as a callback to their first meeting. There's zero indication that she used a mask to sneak up on the Night King. (And anyway, what difference does it make?)

[Dukefrukem]

My problem with that scene is I didn't remember they met at all. So all that shit about eyes I had forgot. It's definitely just a callback. No mask.

[Spinal]

I would have no trouble with Arya doing what she did if they just showed us how she got there. It made sense to keep Jaqen's abilities secret because he was a mysterious, peripheral character. This was a climactic moment with a central character against a seemingly unstoppable villain who is surrounded by his deadly minions. It's not enough to say she could do it. You need to show us how after all this time we've spent leading up to this moment. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you just don't know and that's utter crap. It's not how Martin writes. It's not in keeping with what's come before.

[Spinal]

It's not in keeping with what's come before.

Well, I mean, apart from that whole beyond-the-wall dragon rescue bullshit from last season.

[Irish]

I would have no trouble with Arya doing what she did if they just showed us how she got there. It made sense to keep Jaqen's abilities secret because he was a mysterious, peripheral character. This was a climactic moment with a central character against a seemingly unstoppable villain who is surrounded by his deadly minions. It's not enough to say she could do it. You need to show us how after all this time we've spent leading up to this moment.

In season 6? 7? she kills Walder Frey's sons and bakes them into a pie, that she then feeds to Frey. After slitting his throat, she adopts his persona and poisons his entire household.

Most of the tricky parts -- like dimembering bodies and baking while in the middle of a mass murder --- she does off-screen. We don't see the details and don't really know how she pulled all that off.

The Frey scenes are completely entertaining and totally ridiculous. As a hardcore fan and as someone who's read the books, why would you accept that on faith but not this episode where she basically pulls a Han Solo, appearing out of nowhere to save the day?

[Spinal]

In season 6? 7? she kills Walder Frey's sons and bakes them into a pie, that she then feeds to Frey. After slitting his throat, she adopts his persona and poisons his entire household.

Most of the tricky parts -- like dimembering bodies and baking while in the middle of a mass murder --- she does off-screen. We don't see the details and don't really know how she pulled all that off.

The Frey scenes are completely entertaining and totally ridiculous. As a hardcore fan and as someone who's read the books, why would you accept that on faith but not this episode where she basically pulls a Han Solo, appearing out of nowhere to save the day?

It is a lot easier for me to imagine how Arya could fool the Freys. That does not require explanation. There is a big difference between Freys and White Walkers.

[Irish]

It is a lot easier for me to imagine how Arya could fool the Freys. That does not require explanation. There is a big difference between Freys and White Walkers.

It isn't about the relative power of the Freys to the White Walkers. Both situations are relatively implausible; why accept one and not the other?

(I'm not trying to be a smart ass. You're not the only person I've heard who was annoyed by this moment. I'm genuinely curious.)

ETA: I mean, I cackle like an idiot when Arya goes into super-ninja mode, because it's fun, and I think it's meant to fun and only that.

[Spinal]

It isn't about the relative power of the Freys to the White Walkers.

But I just said it was. If you just dismiss my objection, I'm supposed to come up with another?

[Wryan]

Lovely visuals in the episode. I think my fave was top right, the blurry shot of the NK raising dead from atop the dragon, eyes quietly aflame.

[Grouchy]

That's a lot better than what I saw on my TV.

[Ezee E]

Well, this proves that TVs aren't quite up to movie theater standard like some think!!

I saw the Melisandre talk being inspriation only. I was joking and thinking that her taking a white walker disguise could've been better. If anyone can maneuver and get around Winterfell, it's a Stark, so I didn't think it was completely implausible that she was able to enter the courtyard and hide in a tree after this particular scene.

Mostly just annoyed by people that were completely overtaken by wights, but somehow make it through...

And I swore one of the two dragons died, but I guess not? Daenarys' has to be pretty wounded.

[Gizmo]

Yeah, I might have had an inkling of what was happening if the images were half that quality when i was watching. I guess when I gotta stream to watch, I take what I can get.

[Ezee E]

Well, the Freys aren't exactly the brightest of families, lol.

[Spinal]

It also bothers me that Arya is that skilled after having both of her main mentoring sessions (Syrio and Faceless Men) cut short. That's not really how training works.

[Irish]

Quite right.

And might I add, it's a story telling conceit that's just so rare in genre fiction

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Show Spoiler

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[Morris Schæffer]

Haha Irish

[Spinal]

I mean, we can go back and forth, but it all boils down to the fact that most people agree that Game of Thrones achieved its popularity by being a pointed critique of common fantasy conventions, injecting verisimilitude, careful planning and real consequences into the genre. Irish's take is basically, it's the same old cheese. Enjoy it on that level. So there you have it. We can disagree on this point.

[Irish]

I mean, we can go back and forth, but it all boils down to the fact that most people agree that Game of Thrones achieved its popularity by being a pointed critique of common fantasy conventions, injecting verisimilitude, careful planning and real consequences into the genre.

Ya know, I'm posting right here. You can address me directly. You don't need to refer to me in the third person. It's okay.

Who are "most people"? I'd think that "most people" wouldn't have been familiar with fantasy conventions one way or the other, outside "Lord of the Rings" and maybe "Conan the Barbarian."

You talk as if Martin invented this stuff. He didn't. In fact, he was a relative late comer to the grimdark trend in fantasy fiction.

And what are "real consequences"? I've seen people on r/asoiaf throw that phrase around as if it's meaningful in some way and unique to Martin, but it's not. "Consequences" are the crux of all drama, or anything that aspires to be drama. Without "consequences," you're watching a network sitcom or an old Saturday morning cartoon.

I agree on the verisimilitude. "Game of Thrones" hesitates to employ usual fantasy tropes, like magical systems or creatures. I think that was smart, because it sidesteps any kneejerk comparisons to "Lord of the Rings" and allows a mass audience to watch without feeling like complete dorks.

[Spinal]

Who are "most people"?

Nearly a decade of TV criticism.

You talk as if Martin invented this stuff. He didn't. In fact, he was a relative late comer to the grimdark trend in fantasy fiction.

You continue to set up arguments for me that I'm not making. There's no question he had a role in popularizing it.

And what are "real consequences"?

Standing up for what you believe in and getting beheaded instead of saving the day. Being a wise-cracking arrogant knight and getting your hand chopped off instead of laughter. Trying to avenge your father's death and getting yourself killed. Honestly, this is where I can't tell if you're being serious or if you're just messing with me. This is kind of basic stuff with regards to this show and story.

[Spinal]

It's a problem in Star Wars too. You keep insisting that the series has always been this way. It hasn't. There's been a significant change for the ordinary after Martin's departure.

[Grouchy]

There's been a significant change for the ordinary after Martin's departure.

He's probably contractually forced not to pass judgement on any of the show's narrative choices at this point but I'm dying to know how he really felt about the episode. It's so opposed to the philosophy under which he writes fiction.

[Spinal]

He's probably contractually forced not to pass judgement on any of the show's narrative choices at this point but I'm dying to know how he really felt about the episode. It's so opposed to the philosophy under which he writes fiction.

Well, and he is gracious enough not to bitch about something that's made him hugely wealthy. I honestly think the showrunners are doing their best. They've pushed the limits of TV as far as it can go and it still may not be enough to capture the size of the story. I mean, The Long Night was never intended to be literally one night.

[Irish]

It's a problem in Star Wars too.

No, it's really not.

I mean, I'm sure there's a dozen podcasts out there that have discussed just what Luke was doing between "Empire" and "Jedi" and there's a buncha nerds on the internet with volumes of theories to explain the discrepancy between Luke's abilities from one movie to another --- but most people just don't care.

Because "Star Wars" isn't "36 Chambers of Shaolin" or whatever; the movies weren't about Luke's training. Nobody who watches them comes away thinking it's any kind of dealbreaker.

You keep insisting that the series has always been this way. It hasn't. There's been a significant change for the ordinary after Martin's departure.

I think there's a noticeable difference in quality. Benioff & Weiss aren't nearly as good at hiding the seams in their stories as Martin is. But's like they're doing the Muzak version of Martin's song --- a different sound but the notes are the same.

[Grouchy]

I think there's a noticeable difference in quality. Benioff & Weiss aren't nearly as good at hiding the seams in their stories as Martin is. But's like they're doing the Muzak version of Martin's song --- a different sound but the notes are the same.

That's a good metaphor but I don't think it's true. For one thing, Martin always favors character over story. This has not been true in the latter seasons - you pointed out some instances of that yourself, like the entire North forgiving the Kingslayer simply because he's good with a sword and the war is coming, while in the second season they murdered children because they couldn't get their hands on him.

Martin also seems obsessed with the tangents of his story - how one action has unexpected repercussions on characters far away from the main events, like the Dorne storyline that develops from Oberyn's death. B&W are completely uninterested in this type of storytelling. They are more desperate to deliver closure and reward the viewer than Martin ever was.

[DavidSeven]

Your frame of reference and expectations are going to be different if you jump into the series in Season 7 and then double back versus watching it in continuity as it airs. If you're watching Season 7 and beyond relatively fresh (meaning you skipped the transition seasons), it makes all the sense in the world you would compare its storytelling favorably to a big fantasy franchise like Star Wars. It's pretty much followed that tone consistently since Season 6. Those who watched the full transition from GRRM's sourced stories to Benioff and Weiss's full control have had a much different, far more jarring experience.