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Thread: Game of Thrones (The Final Season / 8 )

  1. #176
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    Melisandre coming out of nowhere isn't an example deus ex. Half the people in Winterfell right now seem to have teleported there from different parts of the world. (How did they all know to show up just as the Night King approached? Did Jon and Dany send out invitations last year?) Deus ex is traditionally a cheap way to resolve plot problems the writers can't quite figure out. Melisandre's actions didn't resolve anything; her lighting shit on fire was spectacle with no effect on the larger plot.

    But her late presence indicated a real problem: There are too many characters, and most of em are pretty fucking thin. In practical terms, when you get all of them together in one spot it's tough to find enough for everyone to do. Hence Sansa and Tyrion sitting in the basement twiddling their thumbs, Jaime and Brianne's endless hack-n-slash, and minor characters like Tormund and Ghost disappearing in the middle of the episode.

    I've read some wild complaints on twitter and reddit and most of em struck me as odd for a show that's obviously always been (a) a high toned soap opera and (b) built around "trailer moments" --- notable action beats, like Mormont versus the Giant and Arya versus the Night King, are intentionally short, totally gif-able, and designed to be shared on social media.

    People elsewhere totally shit on the showrunners and the writing but I think there were some very good emotional swings in the way The Hound and Arya behaved over the course of the episode. The two people who should have been in their element, in a field of endless killing and aggression, both collapsed in the face of it and had to find a way back to themselves.

    PS: Oh, and the Arya versus the Night King thing was total fan service bullshit and [
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  2. #177
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    It still would have been nice if I could actually see what was going on, in the battlefield.
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  3. #178
    Since 1929 Morris Schæffer's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Melisandre's actions didn't resolve anything; her lighting shit on fire was spectacle with no effect on the larger plot.
    Wasn't it her who triggered something within Arya towards the end? that indirectly led to Arya vanquishing the Night King?
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  4. #179
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    Irish, I seem to remember you jumped into watching the show in season 7. There's a marked difference from that season onwards. Yes, it has always been high-toned soap opera and full of gif-able moments. But mimicking GRRM's novels, the show also places heavy stress on minutia character works and little step-by-step plotting to ground them. From season 7 onwards, that grounding decreases dramatically, with plot zooming fast past connective issues and character arcs taking shortcuts, in favor of big picture storytelling. So as much as I still like the show, those complaints of that nature from season 7 onwards are totally valid.
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  5. #180
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Morris Schæffer (view post)
    Wasn't it her who triggered something within Arya towards the end? that indirectly led to Arya vanquishing the Night King?
    Yeh. Something about eyes and "not tonight". People seem to equate this to Arya using a mask to disguise herself as a White Walker. This has not been confirmed though.
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    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  6. #181
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    I can't believe we're still talking about the mask thing. If it was a mask, they would have shown the reveal, just like every other time.
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  7. #182
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    I can't believe we're still talking about the mask thing. If it was a mask, they would have shown the reveal, just like every other time.
    I don't disagree.



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    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  8. #183
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    I just took it to mean she was reminding Arya that her destiny is to be a little stabby girl. That's it.

    And of course she didn't wear any damn white walker mask. Tho I still wanna know how she accounts for differences in height/build in the people she's face-ing.
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  9. #184
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    Quote Quoting Wryan (view post)
    I just took it to mean she was reminding Arya that her destiny is to be a little stabby girl. That's it.
    ^ This.

    "And what do we say to the god of death?"
    "Not today."

    Arya freaked out in the library and became more panicked as she tried to get away from the wights. The whole sequence was shot like a horror movie with her as the Final Girl.

    Melisandre is basically telling her, "FFS, remember who are."

    People are reading too much into the eye color thing. I took that as a callback to their first meeting. There's zero indication that she used a mask to sneak up on the Night King. (And anyway, what difference does it make?)

  10. #185
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    My problem with that scene is I didn't remember they met at all. So all that shit about eyes I had forgot. It's definitely just a callback. No mask.
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    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  11. #186
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    I would have no trouble with Arya doing what she did if they just showed us how she got there. It made sense to keep Jaqen's abilities secret because he was a mysterious, peripheral character. This was a climactic moment with a central character against a seemingly unstoppable villain who is surrounded by his deadly minions. It's not enough to say she could do it. You need to show us how after all this time we've spent leading up to this moment. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you just don't know and that's utter crap. It's not how Martin writes. It's not in keeping with what's come before.
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  12. #187
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    It's not in keeping with what's come before.
    Well, I mean, apart from that whole beyond-the-wall dragon rescue bullshit from last season.
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  13. #188
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    I would have no trouble with Arya doing what she did if they just showed us how she got there. It made sense to keep Jaqen's abilities secret because he was a mysterious, peripheral character. This was a climactic moment with a central character against a seemingly unstoppable villain who is surrounded by his deadly minions. It's not enough to say she could do it. You need to show us how after all this time we've spent leading up to this moment.
    In season 6? 7? she kills Walder Frey's sons and bakes them into a pie, that she then feeds to Frey. After slitting his throat, she adopts his persona and poisons his entire household.

    Most of the tricky parts -- like dimembering bodies and baking while in the middle of a mass murder --- she does off-screen. We don't see the details and don't really know how she pulled all that off.

    The Frey scenes are completely entertaining and totally ridiculous. As a hardcore fan and as someone who's read the books, why would you accept that on faith but not this episode where she basically pulls a Han Solo, appearing out of nowhere to save the day?

  14. #189
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    dammmmmmmmn. first time seeing this.

    You can see two flying in the distance for a split second on the next episode preview.
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  15. #190
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    In season 6? 7? she kills Walder Frey's sons and bakes them into a pie, that she then feeds to Frey. After slitting his throat, she adopts his persona and poisons his entire household.

    Most of the tricky parts -- like dimembering bodies and baking while in the middle of a mass murder --- she does off-screen. We don't see the details and don't really know how she pulled all that off.

    The Frey scenes are completely entertaining and totally ridiculous. As a hardcore fan and as someone who's read the books, why would you accept that on faith but not this episode where she basically pulls a Han Solo, appearing out of nowhere to save the day?
    It is a lot easier for me to imagine how Arya could fool the Freys. That does not require explanation. There is a big difference between Freys and White Walkers.
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  16. #191
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    Lovely visuals in the episode. I think my fave was top right, the blurry shot of the NK raising dead from atop the dragon, eyes quietly aflame.

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  17. #192
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    That's a lot better than what I saw on my TV.

  18. #193
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    Well, this proves that TVs aren't quite up to movie theater standard like some think!!

    I saw the Melisandre talk being inspriation only. I was joking and thinking that her taking a white walker disguise could've been better. If anyone can maneuver and get around Winterfell, it's a Stark, so I didn't think it was completely implausible that she was able to enter the courtyard and hide in a tree after this particular scene.

    Mostly just annoyed by people that were completely overtaken by wights, but somehow make it through...

    And I swore one of the two dragons died, but I guess not? Daenarys' has to be pretty wounded.

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  19. #194
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    Yeah, I might have had an inkling of what was happening if the images were half that quality when i was watching. I guess when I gotta stream to watch, I take what I can get.
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  20. #195
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    It is a lot easier for me to imagine how Arya could fool the Freys. That does not require explanation. There is a big difference between Freys and White Walkers.
    It isn't about the relative power of the Freys to the White Walkers. Both situations are relatively implausible; why accept one and not the other?

    (I'm not trying to be a smart ass. You're not the only person I've heard who was annoyed by this moment. I'm genuinely curious.)

    ETA: I mean, I cackle like an idiot when Arya goes into super-ninja mode, because it's fun, and I think it's meant to fun and only that.
    Last edited by Irish; 04-30-2019 at 11:15 PM.

  21. #196
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    It isn't about the relative power of the Freys to the White Walkers.
    But I just said it was. If you just dismiss my objection, I'm supposed to come up with another?
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  22. #197
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    But I just said it was. If you just dismiss my objection, I'm supposed to come up with another?
    Yes, please do!

    Your objection doesn't make sense to me.

    She's in the Frey's castle, surrounded by at least ~100 people who are hostile to her, somehow manages to commit multiple murders, dismember the bodies of two grown men, stops everything to bake dead bodies into meat pies (somewhere!), faces off against Walder, kills him, fashions an IMF/Ethan Hunt style mask, successfully impersonates Frey, and then poisons everyone else who's still alive. (None of whom, I guess, noticed strange smells wafting from the kitchen or an odd taste to their soup.)

    Meanwhile, in this week's episode ... she walked out her parent's door and into her backyard.

  23. #198
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Well, the Freys aren't exactly the brightest of families, lol.

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  24. #199
    There was so much emotional build up to the Frey scene, not just for Arya but the entire arc of the Starks, that it was easy to give them some leeway there. Also, in the way that the scene was presented on screen, it just never struck me as being as logistically impossible as Arya springing out of nowhere through an army of wights to slay the Night King. Maybe if you broke it down into all the necessary elements, you could make that case, but the task was not as superficially impossible as the task in the Battle of Winterfell.

    The "Behind the Scenes" stuff from the last episode reveals some of Benioff and Weiss's thinking on Arya's Han Solo moment. It really seemed to amount to little more than wanting to distract and surprise the audience. ("Here's all your favorite characters in immediate peril! You'll never see ninja Arya coming!") They employed the same shallow storytelling technique with Baelish's execution last season -- devising a completely useless scheme by Arya/Sansa that literally served no other purpose than to surprise the audience. These guys are in 100% fan service mode, and, yeah, that results in some big, dumb fun and meme-worthy moments, but this story used to be about the exact opposite of conforming to genre tropes and relying on tired "big fantasy" moments.
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  25. #200
    Quote Quoting DavidSeven (view post)
    There was so much emotional build up to the Frey scene, not just for Arya but the entire arc of the Starks, that it was easy to give them some leeway there. Also, in the way that the scene was presented on screen, it just never struck me as being as logistically impossible as Arya springing out of nowhere through an army of wights to slay the Night King. Maybe if you broke it down into all the necessary elements, you could make that case, but the task was not as superficially impossible as the task in the Battle of Winterfell.

    The "Behind the Scenes" stuff from the last episode reveals some of Benioff and Weiss's thinking on Arya's Han Solo moment. It really seemed to amount to little more than wanting to distract and surprise the audience. ("Here's all your favorite characters in immediate peril! You'll never see ninja Arya coming!") They employed the same shallow storytelling technique with Baelish's execution last season -- devising a completely useless scheme by Arya/Sansa that literally served no other purpose than to surprise the audience. These guys are in 100% fan service mode, and, yeah, that results in some big, dumb fun and meme-worthy moments, but this story used to be about the exact opposite of conforming to genre tropes and relying on tired "big fantasy" moments.
    I agree with this. They outright say that they wanted everyone to be assuming it would be Jon to kill the night king because "he's always the hero" so they wanted to shock everyone when it was Arya. Don't get me wrong - she's my favorite character and the moment totally worked. But as soon as it was over I was like...."wait, what?"

    Not such much about the logistics of her ninja arrival, but the fact that we spent seasons - ever since Hardhome - developing an actual relationship between Jon and the Night King. It felt like a cheap attempt to get one of GoT's water cooler OMG! moments but instead just kind of betrayed a.) the tension they had created between Jon and the Night King for years, and b.) all the talk about Jon and/or Dany being the one to stop the long night.

    Even if you don't care about the latter (though you should because Melisandre et al. reference it repeatedly throughout the show; it's not just a book thing), the former still feels wrong in hindsight.

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