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Thread: The Problem with Apu (Hari Kondabolu)

  1. #51
    What is best in life? D_Davis's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)

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    Quote Quoting Edward Said
    We can better understand the persistence and the durability of saturating hegemonic systems like culture when we realize that their internal constraints upon writers and thinkers were productive, not unilaterally inhibiting. [...] Therefore I study Orientalism as a dynamic exchange between individual authors and the large political concerns shaped by the three great empires--British, French, American--in whose intellectual and imaginative territory the writing was produced.
    Apu is obviously a white person's idea of what an "authentic" Indian is supposed to be like, but he makes me laugh. But then, my father is a Sri Lankan Tamil, not a Bengali. Incidentally, in the '90s he saw a VHS copy of The Party in a convenience store and was like, "Kids, you gotta watch this!" Anyway, I guess my point is: One can acknowledge that Apu is problematic and still enjoy The Simpsons.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    But I reject the kind of mentality that's worried that kids are going to watch Fight Club and punch their classmates or Ocean's 11 and rob a bank.
    Oliver Stone once expressed shock that people found Gordon Gekko to be a positive figure. Fans have told Stone that the character inspired them to study finance and work on Wall Street. Stone is still mystified by this. Gekko was, he thought, clearly supposed to be a villain.

    And highschool kids did set up backyard fight clubs after "Fight Club" was released.

    I'm not saying there's any direct link between criminality and media. But I think it very definitely influences the way people see the world, which is what the documentary is about.

    But, as much as I welcome new perspectives on film and art, I hate it when those new perspectives focus on bashing the good stuff of the past. It might be a pet peeve but it's cheap and asinine to me to stand on the high moral ground of classic films and TV.
    I agree with you in spirit---but in practical terms, "The Simpsons" isn't a classic. It's not as if this dude made a film about some cultural artifact from a bygone age. The show is still on the air and Azaria is still playing Apu the same way.

  4. #54
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    Which is a very good point Irish and one that I wrongly ignored - he’s not looking at a product from some bygone era with the eyes of today. It’s not early Looney Tunes with black people being portrayed as spear-wielding savages. It’s still on, and Apu is still the same.

    I’m curious if the documentary is purely observational in its discussion, or if he suggests solutions. Write Apu off the show? Change his behaviour?
    "All right, that's too hot. Anything we can do about that heat?"

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  5. #55
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    Right, let's not trot out a false equivalency. Film's power to influence perception (and more importantly, human development) isn't a power to compel people to take certain actions, let alone criminal ones. You're talking about two very different things there. Media's power to influence manifests in rewiring images in your brain, a power of association. My go-to example of this is about Muslims. If you ask a random person to picture an average Muslim, they are likely to picture a Middle Easterner. Even though only 20% of the world's Muslims are in the Middle East, they get a lot of representation (doesn't matter positively or negatively) in mass media, so they get prioritized in most people's brains. Meanwhile, the world's Muslim majority are people who look more like... Well, me.

    This kind of thing doesn't really make you do things, but it does alter your perception of something, which in turn might compel you to do or not do that something. For example, there have been many studies suggesting that people who are subjected to smoking in entertainment media are more likely to become smokers than those who were not. That's not about movies brainwashing you into making you smoke. People are responsible for their own actions, so people become smokers because they want to smoke. The real question is why they think they want to, and I don't underestimate the impact of movies associating the image of relaxing and hanging out or being confident with the image of smoking. We make fun of regulations about showing characters smoking in movies and TV and comics because it does nothing to affect the behaviors of adults like us, but the fact is that since the banning of cigarette commercials and studios minimizing the depiction in their movies, teen smoking has fallen very sharply. Clarification: I'm not saying this should or shouldn't be done, just that the impact exists.

    After all, we're not talking about The Simpsons showing Apu getting bullied and then its viewers emulate it and Indian-American kids got bullied. That didn't happen. Springfield residents for the most part are very nice to Apu, and bullies are bullies because they're bullies. The conversation, however, is about the specific way in which Indian immigrants are viewed as quaint, weird, funny outsiders in the US, and The Simpsons being the pop culture giant that it is, how closely associated that view is with the way Apu is depicted on the show. It'd be bizarre if a large swath of people with various backgrounds and locations share this commonality of experience about Apu and it's all just a coincidence. I don't believe that it is. This is an example of the power of media to perpetuate a specific image, which is then amplified by the lack of any counter-programming of that image.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Oliver Stone once expressed shock that people found Gordon Gekko to be a positive figure. Fans have told Stone that the character inspired them to study finance and work on Wall Street. Stone is still mystified by this. Gekko was, he thought, clearly supposed to be a villain.
    I've heard that story, and I always thought, in Stone's defense, that the film makes it pretty clear who's the villain by introducing the plot about Martin Sheen losing his job as a consequence of Gekko's scheming. An easy argument could be made on those grounds against Wolf of Wall Street (and I actually read a news story about a company owner who arranged a naked woman parade referencing the film), which I defend because Scorsese has always made movies from the inside out of his characters and their particular worldview. In Goodfellas the focus is notably on the feeling of extended family the Mob provides and the same goes for Wolf which is a similar movie in a lot of ways. I guess idiots and bad people will always thrive. I think Wolf is one of the absolute masterpieces of the new century (others being Holy Motors and Mad Max: Fury Road) but I know plenty of people who love it and have totally failed to understand what Scorsese has to say about society and capitalism.

    Quote Quoting Irish
    And highschool kids did set up backyard fight clubs after "Fight Club" was released.
    Like I said, idiots will always thrive. I got to Fight Club relatively late in the game (I think I was 16 or 17 and I was 12 when it came out) and I'd already outgrown physical confrontations based on dick measuring.

    Quote Quoting Irish
    I'm not saying there's any direct link between criminality and media. But I think it very definitely influences the way people see the world, which is what the documentary is about.
    I think number8's post explained this pretty thoroughly to me and I have to say, you guys are right and I was wrong. What would you do without a disgruntled poster like me to bring out the best writing in others?

    Quote Quoting Irish
    I agree with you in spirit---but in practical terms, "The Simpsons" isn't a classic. It's not as if this dude made a film about some cultural artifact from a bygone age. The show is still on the air and Azaria is still playing Apu the same way.
    True that. But like meg, I wonder how you can "fix" Apu without betraying his character like The Simpsons has already done to too many others. Like, I don't know, the best I can come up with is that Apu feigns that goody-two-shoes, quirky personality to appeal to his customers and secretly he's a Hegel scholar who publishes under a false name. But it's still lame. I think they should never fix it and just end The Simpsons.
    Last edited by Grouchy; 11-16-2017 at 10:20 PM.

  7. #57
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    I think in the last few years I have seen from an AV Club review that there's an episode that attempts to deepen the character, and is pretty good too? Searching it just now, that episode seems to be "Much Apu About Something" and the review mentions Hari Kondabolu too. I might watch it to see how the episode fares in regards to the character (it aired just last year).
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  8. #58
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    Yeah that's the episode where they cast Utkarsh Ambudkar, who was also vocal about hating the Apu character in the press, as his nephew and pointed out all the ways Apu's mannerisms has caused problems for a millennial Indian kid like him.

    Ambudkar is interviewed in this doc, too. So it should be interesting to see what he has to say, being someone who participated in the show's attempt to acknowledge this criticism.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  9. #59
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    True that. But like meg, I wonder how you can "fix" Apu without betraying his character like The Simpsons has already done to too many others. Like, I don't know, the best I can come up with is that Apu feigns that goody-two-shoes, quirky personality to appeal to his customers and secretly he's a Hegel scholar who publishes under a false name. But it's still lame. I think they should never fix it and just end The Simpsons.
    I'm not sure you're aware of this, but... Simpsons did it. A long time ago. There's a classic episode in the 3rd season that revealed Apu's backstory. He has a doctorate and a PhD back in India and that's how he got a scholarship to come to the US. But his visa expired and as an illegal immigrant he could only get a job as a convenience store clerk.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  10. #60
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    I'm not sure you're aware of this, but... Simpsons did it. A long time ago. There's a classic episode in the 3rd season that revealed Apu's backstory. He has a doctorate and a PhD back in India and that's how he got a scholarship to come to the US. But his visa expired and as an illegal immigrant he could only get a job as a convenience store clerk.
    Damn, you're right! That must be why the idea came to mind in the first place!

  11. #61
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    Wow I just found out something pretty interesting. Apu was named Apu because Matt Groening was a big fan of Satyajit Ray's Apu Trilogy.

    So Ray apparently was a huge fan of Peter Sellers and cast him alongside Marlon Brando in what was supposed to be Ray's first Hollywood movie. But the movie got postponed so Sellers could do other movies first, The Party included. Ray visited the set of The Party and was so put off by watching Sellers' portrayal of an Indian that they had a big fight that led to a falling out. Ray eventually went back home and never made an American movie. Sellers, in spite, named his pet monkey in The Party "Apu."

    In an added twist that's probably coincidental, when Groening cast Hank Azaria for his Ray tribute, Azaria said he based his performance on Sellers in The Party.

    Weird.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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    A Hindu family moved into my building. They seem like extremely nice guys. The father found two mattresses in their apartment and gave them away to the homeless.

    When I'm friends enough with them I'm definitively going to ask them about Apu.

  14. #64
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    I watched it and found it really funny that everything we talked about in this thread gets discussed in the movie.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  15. #65
    Sunrise, Sunset Wryan's Avatar
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    This is a great thread. Heard the story on NPR about Problem and realized MC had a thread about it that I hadn't yet looked at. 'Twas a good read. Would like to see the doc soon.
    "How is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home wine-making course and forgot how to drive?"

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  16. #66
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    Not sure how I avoided this thread this long. I'm super huge Simpsons fan and this intrigues me. I also find the situation the Simpsons are in fascinating.

    There isn't another show so engraved in pop culture, that has aired as long as the Simpsons... the characters are virtually the same as they were in 1990. So why not change some of the characters? What a good opportunity.

    I just read they renewed it for a 29th and 30th season which will air in 2018/2019. Wow.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    Yeah that's the episode where they cast Utkarsh Ambudkar, who was also vocal about hating the Apu character in the press, as his nephew and pointed out all the ways Apu's mannerisms has caused problems for a millennial Indian kid like him.

    Ambudkar is interviewed in this doc, too. So it should be interesting to see what he has to say, being someone who participated in the show's attempt to acknowledge this criticism.
    Spoilers: He had things to say about the episode he appeared in.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  18. #68
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    Azaria responds? Kinda? Sorta?

    "It's an important conversation and one we're, uh, having."

    https://www.tmz.com/2017/12/03/hank-...-the-simpsons/

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