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Thread: The Problem with Apu (Hari Kondabolu)

  1. #26
    Winston* Classic Winston*'s Avatar
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    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    Not saying that at all.

    Just this it might have been more poignant if they used Apu as a jumping off point for how The Simpsons uses racial and religious stereotypes in pretty much every single episode, and uses them as a quick way to establish character with the viewer.
    Why would that be more poignant?

  2. #27
    3-2-1 Let's Porg Neclord's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what to say. Stereotypes are a familiar shorthand but if the face of my culture in entertainment was a caricature created and embodied by people not even of it, and it had negatively impacted my life and career, I hope I'd be supported in my speaking out about it. The Simpsons has been fellated enough.

  3. #28
    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    But again, it seems like Apu is being used to comment on a specific challenge in media representation that Indian Americans face. A documentary about all the ugly Americanism of The Simpsons is something I'd be curious about, because the show has gotten away with a lot of lazy comedy, but this documentary seems to be focused on what Apu (and the absence of Indians in media beyond Apu) means to Indian Americans. Apu's the prism for a larger issue.

    That said, I'd agree that the trailer does lack the nuance you would assume a project like this requires, although maybe reality actually sorta matches how oblivious those Simpsons writers and actors.

  4. #29
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    I posted the trailer because I thought this looked like an interesting documentary with a fresh perspective. It never occurred to me that the thread would immediately descend into a shitty conversation about race.

    So here are some random responses to various bits of disturbing nonsense:

    - Get back to me when an Indian-American becomes President of the United States, Mayor of New York, or is routinely elected to the U.S. Senate.

    - Italian-American groups condemned and protested Coppola's "Godfather" movies when those films were released in the 1970s, and they complain whenever Italians are casually portrayed as thugs and gangsters.

    - Apu is the only "Simpsons" regular whose defining characteristic is based on race. That's the difference between him and characters like Barney or Fat Tony, and that's what the writers and producers don't understand. All of the other hard caricatures---Japanese karate masters, Italian chefs, and Irish drunks---aren't series regulars and don't have storylines built around them.

    - If Carl Carlson, the only black regular on the show, spoke in some ghetto slang / jive bullshit / ebonics nonsense, most people wouldn't have any problem spotting that as deeply fucking racist. Well, surprise! That's exactly what they're doing with Apu.

    - The perspective on "The Simpsons" is overwhelmingly white and Protestant. They might be working class or middle class, but they're still WASPs.

    - Hank Azaria is a fantastic performer but the fact that he's still doing this character the same way in 2017 is a stain on his legacy.

    - Ethnic jokes are really a form of low comedy. Making jokes about a class that regularly eats shit in the larger society is a terrible thing to do. It doesn't make anyone a funny. It makes them a bully.

    - The reason this is coming up now is because Indians finally have a little more visibility in the media.

    - If you like and respect performers like Kal Penn and Aziz Asari, then why would you immediately dismiss their perspective? Are you completely devoid of curiosity and empathy?

    - As Syco noted, Gedde Watanabe in "Sixteen Candles" is your modern version of what Mickey Rooney did in "Breakfast at Tiffany's." See also: Fisher Stevens in "Short Circuit."

    - He won't play the card, so I will. IIRC, number8 is Asian. You sound like a total dickhead when you argue with an Asian guy about the representation of Asians in U.S. media. There is a super long and disturbing history in the United States with the way this ethnic group has been portrayed and treated. Go read a fucking book, then post.

    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    EDIT: The article linked on the first post also accuses Peter Sellers's hilarious performance in The Party of "brownface". Facepalm.
    Du hast recht, mein Bruder! Wir müssen die Schlammleute besiegen! Big smile! Big smile!

  5. #30
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    Hari Kondabolu on loving The Simpsons, but hating Apu (and making a movie about it)

    First paragraph of the article feels like answering to some of this thread.

    “They haven’t seen the movie!” It’s Monday, November 5, and Hari Kondabolu is already having preemptive criticisms of his new truTV documentary, The Problem With Apu, lobbed at him on Twitter. “I don’t mind discussion, I don’t mind criticism, but watch the goddamn movie, then go after it.” The Problem With Apu,which premieres November 19, is many things—a comedic visual memoir for its star and executive producer, an examination of South Asian representation in American popular culture, a crash course on the history of minstrelsy in the U.S.—filtered through one entry point: a critique of The Simpsons’ Apu Nahasapeemapetilon. And that’s what’s attracting these hostile reactions on social media.
    Last edited by Peng; 11-15-2017 at 12:23 PM.
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  6. #31
    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I posted the trailer because I thought this looked like an interesting documentary with a fresh perspective. It never occurred to me that the thread would immediately descend into a shitty conversation about race.
    I'm not one for reading tea leaves, but I can't help expecting that a conversation on race would emerge in a film thread centered on racial representation.

  7. #32
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    Quote Quoting Dead & Messed Up (view post)
    I'm not one for reading tea leaves, but I can't help expecting that a conversation on race would emerge in a film thread centered on racial representation.
    Emphasis on the "shitty" part of "shitty conversation."

    My objection isn't that a conversation exists. My objection is that this conversation is reactionary and regressive. Ie: It's a shitty conversation about race.

  8. #33
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    It would allow actors and directors to continue making comedies?
    This is a baffling sentiment to me. I was not aware that comedy is so strapped right now. Because in my mind it is thriving and more fearless and vulgar than ever. I honestly sometimes entertain the idea that political correctness is a conspiracy invented by hack comedians who need a reason for why they're considered unfunny.

    Coincidentally, I'm actually reading a book right now and got to a part this morning that has stuck with me all day. It's quoting Emily Nussbaum writing about how Broad City's third season addressed the criticisms of the show: "Great comedians don't fold and sulk when people raise questions—they just make better bits and bolder, more ambitious jokes." It's a great encapsulation of what I admire about the comedians I admire. They take their fucking punches and roll with them.

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    - He won't play the card, so I will. IIRC, number8 is Asian.
    Yes, this is correct. I just went to the bathroom to check.

    Seriously, though, there is a reason why I rarely "play that card," so to speak. I consider this a specifically Asian-American issue, and I sometimes find myself forgetting that I am one, since I was not raised here and therefore did not grow up with the problems of Asian-American kids. But I know it's essential to draw that distinction, because it annoys me when Asian-Americans are talking about the struggles of growing up as second class citizens in a melting pot society and Asians in homogenous countries who do not have to have this conversation in their society are used to attack these disenfranchised Americans—such as when people tried to point to how the people in Japan didn't care about ScarJo starring in Ghost in the Shell (and I will bet that most people in India don't care that a white man is voicing a character on an American show). It's treating Asian-Americans like they're mutts who are disobeying the Asian brass in Asian HQ.

    And just to clarify: yes, my opinion about representation and whitewashing absolutely differ before and after I moved to the US.
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    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  9. #34
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    I know number8 is Asian. I had a beer or two with him and his girlfriend face to face I.R.L. Still, he's Indonesian*. India is like a whole different planet. I feel like, if the whole world is going to turn politically correct, we might as well get these facts straight. I had no problem learning the difference between cultures back in the time when there was no problem with stereotyping them.

    Quote Quoting Irish
    - Apu is the only "Simpsons" regular whose defining characteristic is based on race. That's the difference between him and characters like Barney or Fat Tony, and that's what the writers and producers don't understand. All of the other hard caricatures---Japanese karate masters, Italian chefs, and Irish drunks---aren't series regulars and don't have storylines built around them.
    But isn't this what I was getting at? Apu is a real character. The episode about his marriage actually portrays a highly controversial aspect of his culture.

    Anyway, you are right. I'd never censor a critical opinion piece about a fictional character. I tried to give you rep for your detailed response but I've apparently done too much of it. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. But seriously, sometimes this stuff just gets out of hand. You're going to call out The Party on the grounds of political correctness? The clueless Hindu was like, the goddamn anti-hero of that piece!

    ​* Or Thai? I'm pretty sure it was Indonesian.

  10. #35
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    But I know it's essential to draw that distinction, because it annoys me when Asian-Americans are talking about the struggles of growing up as second class citizens in a melting pot society and Asians in homogenous countries who do not have to have this conversation in their society are used to attack these disenfranchised Americans—such as when people tried to point to how the people in Japan didn't care about ScarJo starring in Ghost in the Shell (and I will bet that most people in India don't care that a white man is voicing a character on an American show). It's treating Asian-Americans like they're mutts who are disobeying the Asian brass in Asian HQ.
    People in India have been well aware of Apu for decades now. The Simpsons is like an exceptional cultural phenomenon in that sense.

    And Japan... it's like a completely different can of worms. They appropriate foreign culture like crazy.

  11. #36
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    People in India have been well aware of Apu for decades now. The Simpsons is like an exceptional cultural phenomenon in that sense.
    I know that. The Simpsons is on constantly, everywhere. I was referring to the mentality of "It's an American show, and Americans = white people, so it makes sense that white people get all the roles!" This mentality is something I still hear from back home, and it's the dominant sentiment you'll find if you ask Japanese people about the idea of James Franco starring in an American Akira movie or something. They don't give a shit, because why would they? None of the issues surrounding those criticisms apply to their relationship with the entertainment industries over there. Why would we expect Indians who see Indian actors play Indian characters on TV and in movie theaters every single day care about Indian-Americans yearning to see Indian-American actors playing Indian-American characters on TV and movies? That notion is utterly ridiculous once you spend even a minute thinking about it. They have nothing to do with each other, and is an example of people ignoring vast experiential, cultural, and situational differences between two groups of people and lumping them together just because they look the same.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  12. #37
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    India is like a whole different planet. I feel like, if the whole world is going to turn politically correct, we might as well get these facts straight.
    The point is about how Western racism views those cultures, not about the cultures themselves as they exist in the world. The problems around a character like Apu encompasses a lot of attitudes toward Asian, South Asian, and Southeast Asian people. It's not strictly about geography.

    So the fact that number8 is Indonesian and not Indian or Japanese is moot, because American culture views and often represents these groups in the same way (eg: "model minority"; good at math and science; 'funny' accents; pidgin English; desexualized men and eroticized women.)

    Meaning: It's possible to connect some nasty dots between Fu Manchu, Mr. Yunioshi, "The Party", Shortround, and a guy like Apu, even though they're examples from different periods and the characters are based on different countries and cultures.

    But isn't this what I was getting at? Apu is a real character. The episode about his marriage actually portrays a highly controversial aspect of his culture.
    Every time Apu opens his mouth, the show is making a joke at the expense of Indians. And he didn't get married until the 9th season, when the character was already well established.

    Like I said, he's the only recurring character who is defined by race. The showrunners wouldn't have pulled that shit with any other class. They knew they'd never get away with it.

    You're going to call out The Party on the grounds of political correctness? The clueless Hindu was like, the goddamn anti-hero of that piece!
    Yeah. An English actor applying brownface and passively making fun of people that his country brutalized for nearly a century. That's objectively hilarious and beyond reproach.

    And stop with the jibes at "political correctness." You sound like a Trump supporter. If you want to jump into the deep end of American culture, maybe learn something about it and its issues.

    I'm not claiming to be an expert, but JFC you're coming off like some kind of Argentinian Archie Bunker and it's mystifying.
    Last edited by Irish; 11-15-2017 at 05:00 AM.

  13. #38
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    Yes, this is correct. I just went to the bathroom to check.
    It wasn't my card to play and I'm sorry for dragging you into it in that specific way. But I didn't know how else to phrase it. I read the thread and didn't want you to think you were hanging out there alone.

  14. #39
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    I was at no point saying the issue was non existent. I was asking why a single caricature is being called out in a show fully populated by caricatures.

    8 made a good point with the fact that the documentary is a personal critique not an overall “how race is represented in The Simpsons” doc.

    And I also did not criticize Kal Penn for his stance. I said his quote about disliking The Simpsons lends a very different tone to the doc than what 8 said about Hari loving The Simpsons.
    "All right, that's too hot. Anything we can do about that heat?"

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  15. #40
    Apu in the Simpsons is only part of a much larger problem. Apu is a very visible and important part of the problem. Seems like a great way to frame a documentary.

    My only issue is what the fuck am I supposed to do with a documentary airing on TruTV?

  16. #41
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Hahah I had to look up who Archie Bunker was. I'm definitively not "on the deep end" of American culture.

    The Party is, like, an Argentinian Sunday TV staple. Generations of people have laughed with that movie.

  17. #42
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    The Party is brilliant.
    "All right, that's too hot. Anything we can do about that heat?"

    "Rick...it's a flamethrower."

  18. #43
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    The Party is, like, an Argentinian Sunday TV staple. Generations of people have laughed with that movie.
    Huh. It's almost as if your view of race was informed by the media you consume. Imagine that.

    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    The Party is brilliant.
    Go read a book.

  19. #44
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Huh. It's almost as if your view of race was informed by the media you consume. Imagine that.
    Well, yes, my view of a lot of things was first informed by pop culture. Then I informed myself by reading as you so wisely recommend.

    But I don't think I was ever so obtuse to think that all Hindu people were dumb because I understood Peter Sellers was playing a comedic character meant to make me laugh. I also didn't extrapolate one character into his entire race - in fact, as a kid, I don't think I was even all that aware of the character's race.

    I was never a bully*, to be honest, and I encountered many bullies. If you bully other people on any grounds, the problem might be you or your upbringing, not the media you consume. People have been blaming the media for mankind's faults for years now and I've always found it ridiculous. It's not that I don't understand how propaganda works, I just don't think it's the only defining aspect in forming a person's character.

    * except, occasionally, behind the safety of my computer screen.

  20. #45
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    What is your problem Irish? You’re needlessly aggressive here.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    People have been blaming the media for mankind's faults for years now and I've always found it ridiculous.
    Sure. That's why yellow journalism was never a thing, wartime propaganda didn't work, corporations stopped advertising on television, "24" definitely didn't influence U.S torture policy, and social media couldn't have influenced any elections one way or another.

    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    What is your problem Irish?
    Jesus, seriously? Forget about reading a book. Did you read the thread?

    Nevermind. I'm done now.

  22. #47
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    Yeah, the thread that involved you being at level 100 on the animosity scale while everyone else is just talking.

    You’re being a dick.
    "All right, that's too hot. Anything we can do about that heat?"

    "Rick...it's a flamethrower."

  23. #48
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    I never understood how one can be a cinephile and think so little of the power of film and television to influence people's thinking. For me it's the power I believe in the most.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  24. #49
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    Agreed.
    "All right, that's too hot. Anything we can do about that heat?"

    "Rick...it's a flamethrower."

  25. #50
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    It's obviously influential. I just think it's used as a bit of a scapegoat sometimes. I know you can sell ideology through cinema, I said so - that's the main reason UFA and Hollywood became so prominent. But I reject the kind of mentality that's worried that kids are going to watch Fight Club and punch their classmates or Ocean's 11 and rob a bank. What's the difference between that and the spurious arguments that led to the creation of the Hays Code?

    Anyway, don't get mad, Irish. I knew I was on swampy grounds and your responses are very well thought out. But, as much as I welcome new perspectives on film and art, I hate it when those new perspectives focus on bashing the good stuff of the past. It might be a pet peeve but it's cheap and asinine to me to stand on the high moral ground of classic films and TV.

    Relevant to this thread, I saw The Day of the Locust last night. There's plenty of attention paid to racial relations, but the only Mexican character organizes cockfights, drinks tequila, fucks married women and has a huge moustache. Racism? And also, the Donald Sutherland character is named Homer Simpson.

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