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Thread: Celeb (and Celeb SO's) Sexual Harassment Thread

  1. #976
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    Distrust the accusations? Or distrust Kavanaugh?
    Distrust the accusations. The sentence is confusing - I was addressing Pop Trash's "due process" concerns. I agree with those on certain cases, but come on, frat boys are famously rapists. The stories fit the man's profile is all I'm saying.

  2. #977
    Quote Quoting Pop Trash (view post)
    Spinal, I don't know when you graduated high school, but I think you are a few years older than me. I was a kid then, but I don't remember people discussing "date rape" much as a thing until maybe the 90s. I was talking about this with a friend recently, but even some of the more controversial aspects of movies like 16 Candles, were never really brought up until the 00s. I do remember discussing how cringey Long Duk Dong seemed when I rewatched it around 2005, but I don't remember even at that time people considering Anthony Michael Hall's character to be a possible date rapist. My friend (who is in his 30s like me) basically stated that people shouldn't emulate movies, that people get murdered, etc. but if you watch, I dunno, Scarface or whatever there's a clear presentation of an immoral character that I don't think people saw in the 80s in Anthony Michael Hall's character or the (now) infamous non-consensual cunnilingus scene in Revenge of the Nerds. I think people just viewed these things as "wacky hijinks" which leads me to believe that the line was much more blurry in the 80s (or even to a lesser extent in the 90s) about what was "dude, bitchin' party my bro" and what was legit sexual assault. I feel like only people in their 30s, 40s, or 50s would even know what I'm talking about.
    This isn't a situation where the line was blurry. The question here is simply: Did Kavanaugh pin down a 15-year-old girl and try to take off her clothes while covering her mouth to keep her from screaming? Nothing blurry about that.

    Furthermore, it's not as though Kavanaugh said, "I wasn't really going to rape her; I just wanted to scare her. That's why we were laughing." He flatly denies the accusation. So the only question we need to consider is whether or not the accusation is true.
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  3. #978
    Guttenbergian Pop Trash's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting baby doll (view post)
    Furthermore, it's not as though Kavanaugh said, "I wasn't really going to rape her; I just wanted to scare her. That's why we were laughing." He flatly denies the accusation. So the only question we need to consider is whether or not the accusation is true.
    Right. So he says "this 100% never happened" and she says "he 100% did this to me" so you look at corroborating evidence. The FBI investigation might pull up some stuff and his Mark Judge friend might squawk, but I doubt it, since even if it did happen, he would then be implicating himself. The fact that Ford can't remember where it happened, how she got there, who she left with, the date, etc. makes it pretty flimsy.
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  4. #979
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    You can't find corroborating evidence of something like that. Even a rape kit doesn't work a long time after the episode. Which is why powerful people tend to get away with it in these cases.

  5. #980
    Guttenbergian Pop Trash's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    You can't find corroborating evidence of something like that. Even a rape kit doesn't work a long time after the episode. Which is why powerful people tend to get away with it in these cases.
    Corroborating evidence in this case could be witnesses that testify this party happened and Ford was there. Also, if she was able to remember any more key details (like where the house is) the FBI could interview the home owners at the time (presumably the parents of one of the kids at the party) to see if they were out of town or knew any other info. Of course the FBI report is coming out this week, so maybe some of that will be in the report.

    The other thing is that if anyone testified they had consensual sex with Kavanaugh while he was in high school or even early college (18-19 yrs old) that would completely nail him and he could be charged with lying under oath. It would also make his "I was a good virgin boy" story fall apart.
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  6. #981
    The only way for Kavanaugh to escape the numerous credible allegations is if you reinforce the illusion that Christine Blasey Ford's allegations are the only ones out there. This is by design.

    Despite the fact that I believe that Christine Blasey Ford's allegations are highly credible, and my gut feeling is that there's a 99% chance that what she is describing actually happened, I do not think that her story alone is enough to prevent Kavanaugh from being placed on the Supreme Court. If a pattern of behavior were established based on accounts by multiple witnesses, and especially if he lied under oath, then that is a different story. Republicans have violated an innumerable number of norms to make sure that the former was not investigated, and are currently silent on the latter.

    Speaking of the Christine Blasey Ford allegation as if they are the only elements in play is not fair.
    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    I don't agree with everything Pop Trash is saying. However, I do feel that there are a few problems with the way Democrats/liberals/whatever are handling these situations:

    1. Rushing to judgment and having a hot take at the first sign of a news story. If you think you already know what's right and wrong in the first fifteen minutes of a breaking case of sexual harassment, you're probably not being too thoughtful. Wait for the facts to come in.
    2. Ignoring relevant information that does not fit your preferred narrative. Life is complicated. People are complicated. Relationships are complicated. Sometimes people are just flat-out villains, as it appears Harvey Weinstein is. Sometimes the truth is a little less clear cut.
    3. "Rounding up" to the supposed violation that best supports your desired level of outrage. For some reason, people get all worked up when you try to clarify the gradation someone's past behavior. It's important though, in order to properly judge what kind of atonement is appropriate. Justice helps the overall cause, injustice gives it the air of illegitimacy and provides justification for apologists.

    I think a lot of this has to do with the mania inspired by the current "president". People are afraid that if they don't act decisively and with ferocity that they will be dismissed and ignored.
    I agree with all of your points.

    However, the problem with the Kavanaugh "hearing" is that the Repubicans are deliberately violating norms so that "the facts never come in", to reference point #1. If the Republicans violate norms, then the nomination has no integrity. Obstructing the process to seek the truth should be treated as being as upsetting as the worst version of that truth, both because this sort of obstruction is a violation of the principles of government and because common sense indicates that people do not obstruct the process to seek the truth when the truth is of no consequence. The Republicans have moved the goalposts so far that the Democrats' outrage has had to be overwhelming just to get to the point where they could have all the facts to then get outraged about. This is by design, of course: If the facts come in now, and they are awful, the Republicans will now say, "Well, you were already upset before the facts ever came in!" This is because they are peddling the narrative that the violation of norms is of no consequence and obstructing the search for the truth is of no consequence. It is a HUGE deal. In fact, there could be an overwhelming amount of information that is disqualifying for Kavanaugh, and it woulds till not be as upsetting as obstructing the search for the truth. This is by design. The Republicans are willing to and actually sacrificing their integrity for the sake of making Kavanaugh's indiscretions look less significant than their assault on transparency and the norms of governance.

    Re:#3, this problem goes both ways, too: People who want to dismiss Swetnick's allegations point immediately to the "gang rape" story and ignore the litany of other charges that are already independently corroborated by journalists. Personally, I round down to avoid this issue.
    Last edited by PURPLE; 10-03-2018 at 02:28 AM.

  7. #982
    good for health Skitch's Avatar
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    I dont know if Kavendouche assaulted Ford.

    I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt, because of his testimony, he is without a doubt entirely not emotional stable enough, rational enough, or partisan enough to preside over a lemonade stand let alone a lifetime appointment (a position that shouldn't exist anyway).

  8. #983
    Guttenbergian Pop Trash's Avatar
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    I could see Jeff Flake flipping. He's not running again and doesn't seem to give AF about the GOP and dislikes Trump. I think if he flips it will be a combo platter of

    1) The sexual assault accusation(s) (mostly Ford's)
    2) The performance at his "job interview" making him seem too partisan and unstable for the supreme court
    3) The long list of evidence that he was, at the least, a very sloppy drunk until at least 1990 or so. Even if you don't believe point #1, the dude has a long paper trail of things like throwing ice after a friend was arrested for a bar fight and making comments on a rental document (or something) about puking. I'm not too judgmental about these things, but an argument could be made that a supreme court nominee should have spent their 20s behaving much more boring than Kavanaugh, esp. when you factor in points #1 and #2.
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  9. #984
    Quote Quoting Pop Trash (view post)
    I could see Jeff Flake flipping. He's not running again and doesn't seem to give AF about the GOP and dislikes Trump. I think if he flips it will be a combo platter of

    1) The sexual assault accusation(s) (mostly Ford's)
    2) The performance at his "job interview" making him seem too partisan and unstable for the supreme court
    3) The long list of evidence that he was, at the least, a very sloppy drunk until at least 1990 or so. Even if you don't believe point #1, the dude has a long paper trail of things like throwing ice after a friend was arrested for a bar fight and making comments on a rental document (or something) about puking. I'm not too judgmental about these things, but an argument could be made that a supreme court nominee should have spent their 20s behaving much more boring than Kavanaugh, esp. when you factor in points #1 and #2.
    #3 is important to you, but lying repeatedly under oath is no issue? This is not limited to the Blasey Ford hearing, either, as it has been proven multiple times over multiple appearances under oath before Congress.

  10. #985
    Shocking Seductive Spiral Thirdmango's Avatar
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    I think the biggest part of political discourse that drives me batty is the concept in which someone makes about 10 points and someone else sees those 10 points, sees something they disbelieve in one point and then dismisses all 10 points because of that 1 point. Then attempts to echo chamber the 1 point.

  11. #986
    Shocking Seductive Spiral Thirdmango's Avatar
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    I need to say I legitimately do not understand the concepts of boys with be boys or any of that trash. If you fucking did something bad in high school and didn't pay for it one iota then why should you get away with it now? You broke the law but you were in high school and you didn't know any better lol, that doesn't matter for anyone else so why is that the defense that works.

  12. #987
    Guttenbergian Pop Trash's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Thirdmango (view post)
    I need to say I legitimately do not understand the concepts of boys with be boys or any of that trash. If you fucking did something bad in high school and didn't pay for it one iota then why should you get away with it now? You broke the law but you were in high school and you didn't know any better lol, that doesn't matter for anyone else so why is that the defense that works.
    Because people do stupid shit when they are minors. I did. Most of my friends did. Most people I know that had any kind of social life did. Lots of people did cocaine at parties in the 80s. Should someone be disqualified for a job when they are 55 and married with three kids for doing a line of blow back in 1985 when they were 17? I really don't think this should follow you around your whole life. There's a reason why minors' criminal records are kept sealed after they turn 18, but I would even extend that window a certain extent into your early 20s, maybe not legally, but certainly take in to consideration someone's age when said stupid behavior happened.
    Last edited by Pop Trash; 10-03-2018 at 08:10 PM.
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  13. #988
    Guttenbergian Pop Trash's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting PURPLE (view post)
    #3 is important to you, but lying repeatedly under oath is no issue? This is not limited to the Blasey Ford hearing, either, as it has been proven multiple times over multiple appearances under oath before Congress.
    What did he lie about? I'm assuming you are about to give me pure conjecture about the definition of "devil's triangle" and such.
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  14. #989
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Pop Trash (view post)
    Lots of people did cocaine at parties in the 80s. Should someone be disqualified for a job when they are 55 and married with three kids for doing a line of blow back in 1985 when they were 17? I really don't think this should follow you around your whole life.
    This is a poor comparison, though, because doing drugs, however illegal, does not really harm others on itself. I mean, Dustin Hoffman got in trouble for saying spicy and inappropriate remarks to a teenager during the filming of a TV movie in the 1980s. It's a slight accusation but one that stuck in the minds of many. If he had been coked out of his mind during the whole shoot a lot of people (including me) wouldn't have cared because he wouldn't have been doing any harm to anyone.

  15. #990
    Guttenbergian Pop Trash's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    This is a poor comparison, though, because doing drugs, however illegal, does not really harm others on itself. I mean, Dustin Hoffman got in trouble for saying spicy and inappropriate remarks to a teenager during the filming of a TV movie in the 1980s. It's a slight accusation but one that stuck in the minds of many. If he had been coked out of his mind during the whole shoot a lot of people (including me) wouldn't have cared because he wouldn't have been doing any harm to anyone.
    It's also a poor comparison because Dustin Hoffman was a grown ass man in the 1980s and had been in the spotlight since 1967. He wasn't doing that at a high school party.
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  16. #991
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Pop Trash (view post)
    It's also a poor comparison because Dustin Hoffman was a grown ass man in the 1980s and had been in the spotlight since 1967. He wasn't doing that at a high school party.
    Ok, it wasn't a good comparison either. My point is that doing drugs does not by itself cause harm to others while sexual assault is by definition causing harm.

  17. #992
    Quote Quoting Pop Trash (view post)
    What did he lie about? I'm assuming you are about to give me pure conjecture about the definition of "devil's triangle" and such.
    I explicitly mentioned that he lied before that hearing. Do you think that he talked about his high school yearbook under oath in multiple other sworn testimony before the Senate? Is that what you're implying?

    His blatant lies in the sexual assault hearing don't include that non-issue. It would be easier to stomach him if that was the extent of it.

    Here's a brief list of incidents prior to the sexual assault hearing.

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics...le-under-oath/

  18. #993
    Guttenbergian Pop Trash's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting PURPLE (view post)
    I explicitly mentioned that he lied before that hearing. Do you think that he talked about his high school yearbook under oath in multiple other sworn testimony before the Senate? Is that what you're implying?

    His blatant lies in the sexual assault hearing don't include that non-issue. It would be easier to stomach him if that was the extent of it.

    Here's a brief list of incidents prior to the sexual assault hearing.

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics...le-under-oath/
    a) many of those are a stretch
    b) Mother Jones? really?

    Anyway, it's all water under the bridge now. Have fun with Brett Kavanaugh grinning at you from the Supreme Court bench for the rest of his life. Beer tab is on me.
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  19. #994
    Quote Quoting Pop Trash (view post)
    a) many of those are a stretch
    b) Mother Jones? really?

    Anyway, it's all water under the bridge now. Have fun with Brett Kavanaugh grinning at you from the Supreme Court bench for the rest of his life. Beer tab is on me.
    If the allegations are corroborated, he will be impeached without a doubt.

    The fourth estate will do a thorough investigation via long-form journalism, and the truth will come out. It's possible that there will be a race to see which repeat sex offender will leave office first. The blatant nature of the cover up will not bode well for the GOP.

  20. #995
    Planet Earth is blue. bac0n's Avatar
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    Just to set expectations, impeaching a supreme court justice would require a 2/3 vote in the Senate, which would require at least 50% of the senate republicans to be on board. Not gonna happen with this crop, even if something really terrible is revealed.
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  21. #996
    Quote Quoting bac0n (view post)
    Just to set expectations, impeaching a supreme court justice would require a 2/3 vote in the Senate, which would require at least 50% of the senate republicans to be on board. Not gonna happen with this crop, even if something really terrible is revealed.
    The investigation will probably take 6 months to a year. 2020 has a lot of Republican Senators coming up for election. Imagine if the biggest story then is a highly detailed, irrefutable piece of journalism detailing both the preponderance of evidence of the recently confirmed Supreme Court Justice knowingly and repeatedly drugging women and of a group of Republican Senators soon up for reelection that made a concerted effort to avoid finding out whether the multiple allegations made before the confirmation were true. Things are unlikely to go well for them.
    Last edited by PURPLE; 10-08-2018 at 04:53 PM.

  22. #997
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    Quote Quoting PURPLE (view post)
    Things are unlikely to go well for them.
    I'm not sure that we know this. The people who support them have decided that they are not swayed by facts and evidence. They discount the media entirely.
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