Celeb (and Celeb SO's) Sexual Harassment Thread

[Skitch]

Looks like MC's favorite comedian is also in trouble.

Who?

[Ezee E]

Who?

I figured it was Louis CK, but he's already in trouble.

[megladon8]

Ansari

[Grouchy]

Ok, that's just the most ridiculous thing I ever read.

It was white. I didn’t get to choose and I prefer red, but it was white wine.

[Ezee E]

Ok, that's just the most ridiculous thing I ever read.

Yeah. If a bad date constitutes as sexual harassment, everyone's in trouble. I think the only way Ansari gets in trouble in the long-term is news articles going for clickbait.

[D_Davis]

Looks like MC's favorite comedian is also in trouble.

Please don't let it be Bill Cosby.

[number8]

I think the only way Ansari gets in trouble in the long-term is news articles going for clickbait.

Or if the other stories that have come out since this one (like the one of him pushing a woman into a bathroom stall to kiss her against her will, or grabbing women's asses at comedy shows) get as big a coverage. I remember someone posting something very prescient a while back about how victims should really be careful about who they tell their stories to, because the perception to your story really, really depend on it. Say, if it was NY Times, they would corroborate, and find those 2-3 other women with similar stories, before they publish this big expose (like they did with Louis CK, and Weinstein, and Charlie Rose), and write about it a certain way, which is then carried by the integrity of the publication. I thought that was really solid advice that's coming true here, because the impact is really neutered by the presentation. If the tone of the encounter was as scary and coercive as she claims it to be, the story got told on a college magazine, as a solitary accusation, with color commentary like that wine bit that became denial fodder. It's damaging to every side.

[Ezee E]

Or if the other stories that have come out since this one (like the one of him pushing a woman into a bathroom stall to kiss her against her will, or grabbing women's asses at comedy shows) get as big a coverage. I remember someone posting something very prescient a while back about how victims should really be careful about who they tell their stories to, because the perception to your story really, really depend on it. Say, if it was NY Times, they would corroborate, and find those 2-3 other women with similar stories, before they publish this big expose (like they did with Louis CK, and Weinstein, and Charlie Rose), and write about it a certain way, which is then carried by the integrity of the publication. I thought that was really solid advice that's coming true here, because the impact is really neutered by the presentation. If the tone of the encounter was as scary and coercive as she claims it to be, the story got told on a college magazine, as a solitary accusation, with color commentary like that wine bit that became denial fodder. It's damaging to every side.

Fair enough.

The same exact article could've easily had a headline of, "My bad date with Aziz Ansari" and not a word would've needed editing. Bad kisser, wanted to speed up for sex, didn't pick up on non-verbal queues, no second date.

What'll be interesting is if there are more stories, considering Aziz is another self-proclaimed feminist with a book written about romance post-2010.

[Ezee E]

Fair enough.

The same exact article could've easily had a headline of, "My bad date with Aziz Ansari" and not a word would've needed editing. Bad kisser, wanted to speed up for sex, didn't pick up on non-verbal queues, no second date.

What'll be interesting is if there are more stories, considering Aziz is another self-proclaimed feminist with a book written about romance post-2010.

"In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual.

The next day, I got a text from her saying that although “it may have seemed okay,” upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said.

I continue to support the movement that is happening in our culture. It is necessary and long overdue."

At least he's not claiming to go into a rehab or some type of spiritual awakening.

[number8]

The same exact article could've easily had a headline of, "My bad date with Aziz Ansari" and not a word would've needed editing.

And honestly, the reaction would have been largely the same, too. There will be a lot of people who read it and relate to it and find his described behavior horrific, and there will be a lot of people who read it and find the whole thing unnecessarily cruel to publicize; but all in all, a typical bit of celebrity tabloid story. The only added fervor here is because it came out during a specific period of time (as always, context and timing counts a hell of a lot).

It's been interesting reading reactions to this and how much it has struck a nerve in people. I assume because it's very relatable to both to men and women. With the others, the stories are very much tied to power and specific kinks, so it's really easy for men to detach themselves from those celebs (see how even the people defending Louis CK's career were still saying "What's with whipping your dick out and jerking off in front of women? That's weird and I would never do that.")

In Aziz's case, it's neither a professional setting nor does it have any of that kind of salacious freakiness. If you can see yourself making the same missteps on a date as he's described as doing, you're more likely to be more invested in denying that what he did was "sexual misconduct." So you see a lot of people defending Aziz by saying "This is just something that's common on dates and he shouldn't be labeled a predator just because he's a celebrity." On the other hand, you have a lot of people who are saying, "Yes, this is common on dates. Coerced consent is predatory and apparently it takes a celebrity to highlight why it's a problem." This conversation is now purely about the blurred lines of consent and that's always been a much more fraught and divisive conversation than sexual harassment.

[Grouchy]

In Aziz's case, it's neither a professional setting nor does it have any of that kind of salacious freakiness. If you can see yourself making the same missteps on a date as he's described as doing, you're more likely to be more invested in denying that what he did was "sexual misconduct." So you see a lot of people defending Aziz by saying "This is just something that's common on dates and he shouldn't be labeled a predator just because he's a celebrity." On the other hand, you have a lot of people who are saying, "Yes, this is common on dates. Coerced consent is predatory and apparently it takes a celebrity to highlight why it's a problem." This conversation is now purely about the blurred lines of consent and that's always been a much more fraught and divisive conversation than sexual harassment.

This is interesting. The other reports you mentioned certainly make Aziz look bad in a way that the original story didn't.

I have no interest in defending Aziz or Louis C.K. or anyone in particular, frankly. I can even enjoy C.K.'s comedy with the knowledge that he's a pervert. But the "coerced consent" thing has always seemed weird to me and, in a way, even derogatory towards women, like they're children or somewhat less prepared for a night of booze and drugs than a man. Like "he got me drunk and took advantage of me". What the hell? Was he waterboarding you with Cosmopolitans?

I think in my last ten dates I had a lot more to drink than my date, by the way. I find it hard to communicate with teetotalers. My problem is finding a soulmate who can keep up with my drinking.

[Ezee E]

This is interesting. The other reports you mentioned certainly make Aziz look bad in a way that the original story didn't.

I have no interest in defending Aziz or Louis C.K. or anyone in particular, frankly. I can even enjoy C.K.'s comedy with the knowledge that he's a pervert. But the "coerced consent" thing has always seemed weird to me and, in a way, even derogatory towards women, like they're children or somewhat less prepared for a night of booze and drugs than a man. Like "he got me drunk and took advantage of me". What the hell? Was he waterboarding you with Cosmopolitans?

I think in my last ten dates I had a lot more to drink than my date, by the way. I find it hard to communicate with teetotalers. My problem is finding a soulmate who can keep up with my drinking.

I picture waterboarding with Cosmos and laughed out loud.

[megladon8]

I thought the “Grace” story regarding Ansari showed some truly scary behaviour, sandwiched between stupid petty tabloid BS (like the wine). But if there’s truth to what happened in her accounts, he is a scary guy.

Shoving your fingers down someone’s throat? What?

[number8]

There's a really famous bit from a Margaret Atwood book that has endured for a reason.

"Why do men feel threatened by women?" I asked a male friend of mine.

"They're afraid women will laugh at them," he said. "Undercut their world view."

Then I asked some women students in a quickie poetry seminar I was giving, "Why do women feel threatened by men?"

"They're afraid of being killed," they said.

Oddly, we tend to conflate the two fears as being equal. "They both had a shitty date" is not a false statement, but I dunno, maybe that sentiment doesn't cover the breadth of the differences in the risks that the two parties felt they were taking in going on that date.

Ironically, Louis CK had a pretty good routine that talks about this in one of his more recent specials...

[Irish]

I've read a ton of response (elsewhere) and had an equal ton of reactions to the Ansari thing. I think I may have covered, and definitely touched, every conceivable base.

My initial stance was more or less defensive. But that changed after reading a few good counterpoints, most of them from women talking about experiences they had when they were much younger than they are now.

It depresses me that the practical application of Atwood's truism that, for a lot of woman, it's safer socially and physically to go down on someone than look him in the face and say "I'm uncomfortable" or "I'd like to go home" and especially "No." I'm a guy, so I've never been in a situation where literally sucking cock feels like my best option.

More depressing are the amount of guys who either don't care (because of a redditish "had sex; doesn't matter" mindset) or remain clueless to what's actually happening on the other side of any given interaction.

This has definitely made me think about encounters I had in highschool and college, going both ways (where my behavior, from the viewpoint of a teenage girl or college coed, might have been dodgy, or the reverse, where the woman in question was much more "enthusiastic" than I was.)

Frankly, the whole thing is fucked and I'd rather not think about it at all.

ETA: What makes me feel insecure is that nobody has said, in anything I've read (elsewhere) what the hell we're supposed to do now as a culture.

Because, I think, for guys this whole thing might be eye opening but it also sends a very big mixed message.

[Ezee E]

Frankly, the whole thing is fucked and I'd rather not think about it at all.

ETA: What makes me feel insecure is that nobody has said, in anything I've read (elsewhere) what the hell we're supposed to do now as a culture.

Because, I think, for guys this whole thing might be eye opening but it also sends a very big mixed message.

It certainly adds a lot more to the dating scene if you're trying to analyze cues, tics, etc., and asking if that's a cue or not can be perceived as "weird" itself, in my opinion.

[number8]

I remember someone posting something very prescient a while back about how victims should really be careful about who they tell their stories to, because the perception to your story really, really depend on it. Say, if it was NY Times, they would corroborate, and find those 2-3 other women with similar stories, before they publish this big expose (like they did with Louis CK, and Weinstein, and Charlie Rose), and write about it a certain way, which is then carried by the integrity of the publication. I thought that was really solid advice that's coming true here, because the impact is really neutered by the presentation. If the tone of the encounter was as scary and coercive as she claims it to be, the story got told on a college magazine, as a solitary accusation, with color commentary like that wine bit that became denial fodder. It's damaging to every side.

This is what I'm talking about. Fucking come on, what is this gross brag?



https://babe.net/2018/01/15/aziz-ansari-coverage-28427

[megladon8]

It certainly adds a lot more to the dating scene if you're trying to analyze cues, tics, etc., and asking if that's a cue or not can be perceived as "weird" itself, in my opinion.

Yeah very much this.

I’m so glad I’m not in the dating scene now. Shit’s scary.

[ledfloyd]

Aziz sounds really, really bad at sex.

I also don't understand the desire, with him, but also with Louis C.K. and others to have sexual encounters with someone who doesn't want to have a sexual encounter with you. What's the appeal?

[Grouchy]

Aziz sounds really, really bad at sex.

I also don't understand the desire, with him, but also with Louis C.K. and others to have sexual encounters with someone who doesn't want to have a sexual encounter with you. What's the appeal?

What?

[Grouchy]

Wow, they accused my former drawing teacher who is also the co-editor of Barcelona magazine, which is sort of the Argentinian The Onion and is awesome. They are accusing him of sexting a 17-year-old student eight years ago.

I keep in touch with the guy and I know this could not possibly come at a worst time for him. Barcelona lost a lawsuit to Cecilia Pando, a nutcase who is known for defending the rights of the convicted killers of the military junta during the '70s dictatorship. She sued the magazine because of a spread that showed her in the cover of a S&M magazine, the joke being that she had chained herself to the Court of Justice building in protest. As a result of the lawsuit the magazine is constantly on the verge of closing and in debt. The drawing classes are his only income and he just got married and had a son.

To be honest, I stopped going to the classes because I wasn't learning much and I always thought they were an excuse by him to meet women - I mean, 90% of the students were young girls. But I'm a huge fan of the guy and Barcelona. The magazine cut ties with him, he's not even on the credits of the last issue. Regardless, I never thought he'd be so clumsy and crude as to sex text a minor and my female classmates told me he never tried anything inappropriate with them. I tried to talk to him to hear his side of the story but apparently his wife is managing his phone.

[Grouchy]

I believe the accusation, though. The guy was always very upfront about being fascinated by and fetishizing women's bodies. I'm just shocked at the impact this is having on his life. No more classes and no more magazine means no more money and his wife's father is not exactly his biggest fan from what I hear. He could lose custody of his son that he's just had.

I believe the accusation but I wonder which party will be more damaged here. I'm kind of in shock - this is the first time this happens to a person I know and like.

[baby doll]

Wow, they accused my former drawing teacher who is also the co-editor of Barcelona magazine, which is sort of the Argentinian The Onion and is awesome. They are accusing him of sexting a 17-year-old student eight years ago.

That's so weird. My former drawing teacher got busted for secretly taping ladies on the toilet, though in the end, most of the charges were dropped. I guess the lesson is: Never trust a drawing teacher.

[Grouchy]

That's seriously fucked up. I once met a guy who told me he secretly recorded himself having sex with his girlfriend. I made it clear I didn't think that was OK or fun and he just stared at me like I was the weird one. It later turned out he was also very violent towards her.

[Wryan]

The depths some people will go to rationalize or mischaracterize their own behavior is just incredible to me. I know of someone who recalled a story from her childhood--with obvious fondness and mirth--of how she and her brothers found a stranger's wallet while they were on vacation. Instead of, oh I don't fucking know, taking it to their parents to see if the owner could be found, they kept the cash to buy one or more video game systems for themselves. Given that they found it while they were on vacation, it stands to reason that the money may have been vacation money specifically, too.

Da absolute fuck?