Once Upon a Time in Hollywood (Quentin Tarantino)

[Ezee E]

Apparently Roman Polanski is a character in this. I don't know how I feel about that. Sure seems like a risky movie.

I mean, he was there if they are going with the Manson murders, so impossible to ignore. And it was his kid. That's pretty disturbing in itself.

This all occurs six or seven years before his other incident as well.

[Grouchy]

Yeah, I know. My mixed feelings are because Polanski is a fellow director who is alive and who has gone on record saying that this incident destroyed his life. In fact there's an actual quote of his where he says that ever since the Tate-LaBianca murders, whenever he catches himself being happy he feels a pang of survivor's guilt.

Polanski's life is the strangest thing ever. Surviving Holocaust, becoming a master filmmaker, having your wife and unborn child gruesomely murdered by the most high-profile psychopath in the world, being condemned of statutory rape and actually fleeing the country to escape the conviction and now some unknown Polish actor is going to play him in a Tarantino movie.

[baby doll]

Polanski's a great filmmaker and all, but I'm so not concerned about his personal feelings.

[Grouchy]

I'm guessing a lot of people feel that way, specially in this social climate.

Anyway, I realize I might be hypocritical because he certainly isn't the only living relative of a Manson cult victim, he's just the most famous.

[Pop Trash]

Did everybody read this??

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/03/o...-is-angry.html

[number8]

Yeah I did. I was unsure as to where to post it. It's striking because I also just read another piece questioning why we label abusive directors as geniuses for being able to play god on set. It really made me uneasy about how often I used to find those kinds of personal directorial tricks either impressive or endearing.

I'm really surprised it took this long for that incident on the Kill Bill set to come out. Why Thurman and Tarantino had a falling out was so mysterious to me.

[Grouchy]

I also think it's really not necessary to do stuff like that for a film to feel authentic. There's a lot of mythmaking built around tyrant directors.

I doubt if Shelley Duvall's performance in The Shining is good because of her effort in the last 250 takes. Or if Peter Lorre's fall down the stairs in M is only believable because he was sucker-pushed by Lang.

[number8]

When you come right down to it, it essentially communicates how much you don't trust your actors or your stunt team to give you what you're looking for.

What really got to me about The Shining is reading this quote by Shelley Duvall: "I had to cry 12 hours a day, all day long, the last nine months straight, five or six days a week. ... After all that work, hardly anyone even criticized my performance in it, even to mention it, it seemed like. The reviews were all about Kubrick, like I wasn't there.”

Almost as bad as the behavior itself is the fact that the stories get canonized into the mythology of the movie, essentially removing the perception of work on the part of the actors, like Duvall said.

[Spinal]

Insult to injury, the Razzies remembered her work.

[ledfloyd]

I wonder how well Tarantino's oeuvre will stand the test of time.

The last time I watched Pulp Fiction I didn't find it as electrifying as I used to, the "dead n----r storage" has aged extremely poorly. Kill Bill is now at least somewhat tainted by his apparent abuse of Uma. I don't think either Django or Hateful Eight were that good to begin with.

This new movie just sounds bad.

At least we'll always have Jackie Brown, one can hope.

[Grouchy]

Nah, Pulp Fiction holds up great for me. You can't expect it to work like you've never seen it before. And Inglourious Basterds is a modern masterpiece.

Almost as bad as the behavior itself is the fact that the stories get canonized into the mythology of the movie, essentially removing the perception of work on the part of the actors, like Duvall said.

I obviously don't have the same experience with actors as Kubrick had in 1980, but the one I do have leds me to believe that although there are obviously brilliant actors and merely adequate ones, 90% of what makes them work in any given movie is the casting itself. It's why Adam Sandler is a pain in the ass in most of his vehicles but he fucking rocked Punch-Drunk Love. Or why Marlon Brando was painful to watch in his late career - well, besides the fact that he didn't give a fuck anymore.

So, yeah, what I'm saying is that you're right. If Kubrick put Duvall in The Shining it's because he believed in what she could bring to the role. I don't think torturing her for so long made her any better.

[baby doll]

I wonder how well Tarantino's oeuvre will stand the test of time.

The last time I watched Pulp Fiction I didn't find it as electrifying as I used to, the "dead n----r storage" has aged extremely poorly. Kill Bill is now at least somewhat tainted by his apparent abuse of Uma. I don't think either Django or Hateful Eight were that good to begin with.

This new movie just sounds bad.

At least we'll always have Jackie Brown, one can hope.

The Kill Bills have never been my favourite Tarantino films but I don't understand this idea that somehow a movie is tainted because something terrible happened behind the scenes. Whatever happened on set during the making of the film is a completely separate matter from the uses people make of the finished work.

[Ezee E]

My own thought is that Kubrick would've probably gone with another actress if he had the chance, but he got too far into the movie to reshoot it all again.

The behind-the-scenes is a clearly frustrated director not getting what he wants.

This doesn't make it right by any means.

On the other end, as the actor or actress, it had to be pretty killing to the self-esteem, and probably life-damaging even to go through all that for 6-8 months (?).

[Irish]

Whatever happened on set during the making of the film is a completely separate matter from the uses people make of the finished work.

This could be used to justify all sorts of horrible shit though, right? From Riefenstahl to Ford to Landis.

It gets murkier when someone gets hurt or killed and we, as the audience, suddenly remember they're just people working a job and no movie is worth that level of sacrifice.

I mean, let's ask the Morrow family what they think of the Landis family and separating "art from artist," blah blah blah.

On a personal level, Tarantino fucking over Thurman by stonewalling her on the footage is pretty raw. On a professional level, he cajoled her into a situation where she could have been killed. That's the part that's reprehensible and the reason fans should shun him.

[Grouchy]

This could be used to justify all sorts of horrible shit though, right? From Riefenstahl to Ford to Landis.

Huh? That's... a random threesome of people you just grouped together for no discernible reason. We can argue that many of Ford's films were US propaganda but certainly not in the same level or as in cahoots with a particular genocide as Riefenstahl's, and Landis is a B-movie filmmaker who made an irresponsible and deadly choice.

Going back to the type of directorial abuse we're talking about here, I'm with baby doll - it really doesn't change my appreciation of the films. It informs it like any other behind-the-scenes story would, but I don't love Last Tango in Paris or The Shining any less because of what I know about behind-the-scenes debacles.

On a personal level, Tarantino fucking over Thurman by stonewalling her on the footage is pretty raw.

This is the one part of this news that I find truly damning for Tarantino. After all, you can make mistakes, even deadly mistakes, but how you act afterwards really shows how honest you are with yourself and with others. Also, if he had not stonewalled her on the footage like you say, this could have been resolved between them instead of in the public eye.

Goddamn I hate insomnia.

[DavidSeven]

I think people are entitled to react to this Tarantino news any way they want — and it certainly doesn’t paint him in a good picture — but where does one draw their line in the sand? I’m not sure I can reconcile a position that shuns Tarantino outright for this but is then indifferent to von Trier, Kubrick, Hitchcock, Bertolucci, David O. Russell, et al. I mean, Aronofsky sent Lawrence to the hospital on their last shoot and then forced her to re-do the entire scene.

As shitty and as cynical as it sounds, your favorite artists probably shouldn’t be held up as your personal heroes.

[Grouchy]

Huh, I Googled Shelley Duvall to see if she had acted in anything recently... That was some depressing shit I wish I hadn't seen.

[Irish]

Huh? That's... a random threesome of people you just grouped together for no discernible reason. We can argue that many of Ford's films were US propaganda but certainly not in the same level or as in cahoots with a particular genocide as Riefenstahl's, and Landis is a B-movie filmmaker who made an irresponsible and deadly choice.

The topic at hand is whether production should influence judgement.

- The reason why I mentioned Riefenstahl should be obvious.

- John Ford was an alcoholic who drank on set and was notoriously abusive to his cast and crew---and that includes legends like John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart, Henry Fonda, and Maureen O'Sullivan. All of them put up with it and all of them had long personal and working relationships with Ford. (Except for Fonda, who never worked with Ford again after Ford punched him in the face on the set of "Mister Roberts.")

- Landis is an asshole who's monumental incompetence got three 3 people decapitated, including 2 children.

[Pop Trash]

I think people are entitled to react to this Tarantino news any way they want — and it certainly doesn’t paint him in a good picture — but where does one draw their line in the sand? I’m not sure I can reconcile a position that shuns Tarantino outright for this but is then indifferent to von Trier, Kubrick, Hitchcock, Bertolucci, David O. Russell, et al. I mean, Aronofsky sent Lawrence to the hospital on their last shoot and then forced her to re-do the entire scene.

As shitty and as cynical as it sounds, your favorite artists probably shouldn’t be held up as your personal heroes.

I basically agree with this, but try as I might, external factors are often a distraction. I've cooled on American Beauty for other reasons before Kevin Spacey's career got wrecked, but I can't imagine watching that now and not being massively distracted by why he chose a script where he obsesses over a teenage girl and the audience is supposed to find that liberating. Same goes for Woody Allen in Manhattan. I think something like Se7en would still work for me or maybe even The Usual Suspects. I also used to love the Herzog / Kinski jungle movies, but haven't watched them since Kinski's daughter accused him of some absolutely horrendous stuff. That said, Kinski is supposed to be a giant creepy weirdo in those, so they might still work for me. I also think it would be hard to watch the first sequence of Twilight Zone: The Movie w/o going "oh yeah, Vic Morrow got his head chopped off by a helicopter blade for this stupid thing."

[Grouchy]

- John Ford was an alcoholic who drank on set and was notoriously abusive to his cast and crew---and that includes legends like John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart, Henry Fonda, and Maureen O'Sullivan. All of them put up with it and all of them had long personal and working relationships with Ford. (Except for Fonda, who never worked with Ford again after Ford punched him in the face on the set of "Mister Roberts.")

I thought you meant his politics.

[number8]

Here's the article I mentioned in my previous post: Why Do We Let “Genius” Directors Get Away With Abusive Behavior?

[number8]

I also used to love the Herzog / Kinski jungle movies, but haven't watched them since Kinski's daughter accused him of some absolutely horrendous stuff. That said, Kinski is supposed to be a giant creepy weirdo in those, so they might still work for me.

Putting aside that maybe we should take My Best Fiend with a grain of salt, that relationship is actually an interesting inverse of what we're talking about because the myth of the movie is that Kinski was the one being abusive to others on the Aguirre crew and so Herzog's stunts that we normally associate with tyrant directors get viewed as a necessary attempt to wrangle a recalcitrant actor. But, again, it's largely a myth that Herzog perpetuated.

[Pop Trash]

Putting aside that maybe we should take My Best Fiend with a grain of salt, that relationship is actually an interesting inverse of what we're talking about because the myth of the movie is that Kinski was the one being abusive to others on the Aguirre crew and so Herzog's stunts that we normally associate with tyrant directors get viewed as a necessary attempt to wrangle a recalcitrant actor. But, again, it's largely a myth that Herzog perpetuated.

That documentary is yet another film dinged up by time, since I imagine if I watched it now, the whole time I would be thinking "gee, wish Herzog made this a few years later so he could cover the allegations of Kinksi systemically raping his own daughter over the course of years." To be honest, I don't know if he would have even made the film post those allegations.

[baby doll]

This could be used to justify all sorts of horrible shit though, right? From Riefenstahl to Ford to Landis.

It gets murkier when someone gets hurt or killed and we, as the audience, suddenly remember they're just people working a job and no movie is worth that level of sacrifice.

I mean, let's ask the Morrow family what they think of the Landis family and separating "art from artist," blah blah blah.

On a personal level, Tarantino fucking over Thurman by stonewalling her on the footage is pretty raw. On a professional level, he cajoled her into a situation where she could have been killed. That's the part that's reprehensible and the reason fans should shun him.

I don't think it justifies anything. I'm not claiming directors need to be abusive and irresponsible in order to make great films (inappropriate workplace behaviour is always inappropriate), but that abusive and irresponsible behaviour behind the scenes is irrelevant to the uses I make of the finished product.

[baby doll]

I thought you meant his politics.

Off topic, but Ford's politics were pretty complicated. He was a supporter to the New Deal and The Grapes of Wrath is pretty much a communist film.