Spider-Man: Homecoming (Jon Watts)

[number8]

It's not a surprise to me that the homecoming car scene is a better set piece than any of the action scenes, given my familiarity of Watts' style via Cop Car. The action scenes are very bland. I get why they hire people like Webb and Watts because they want to focus on the charm (Watts was much more successful than Webb in this regard), but what's missing in both this version and the Garfield ones is the sense of movement being replicated in the visual style. Raimi's camera moved and showed unique perspectives in a way that this just doesn't, and I feel like this is a really critical omission when it comes to Spidey of all superheroes.

[Skitch]

Agreed. I still get goosebumps at some of Raimi's swinging scenes, and I am actively annoyed by Elfman scores, so it doubley annoys me that his musical swells can still work on me. Call it '89 Batman Hangover.

[TGM]

This is the better movie.

It's totally not, though.

[transmogrifier]

It's totally not, though.

It's definitely better than the uber-bland Wonder Woman. Kind of a tie with the GOTG2

[Grouchy]

On retrospect, that car scene was the peak of the film for me.

[Irish]

I thought this was lame. The cast was ace, but the movie was lame.

- The attempted character arc didn't work. Peter is less competent than Inspector Gadget or The Tick, and he shares their lack of self awareness. I always found the character's isolation to be a defining trait, and something that made him more interesting than his costumed peers. But in this movie, Peter has a massive support system--in money, materials, and emotion--everywhere he turns. It undercuts the already limited stakes and turns Parker into a more generic hero. The script uses Stark to pull a deux ex twice, removing Parker's agency, and this completely killed my interest.

- I thought they would build on early scenes more. There was a chance to do some interesting character work when the ATM thieves destroyed the bodega and then again when Vulture killed someone. Maybe Peter realizes how dangerous being a hero can be and gets scared off. Maybe Vulture goes from a petty, local criminal to a guy who likes to kill. But no, the movie just skips ahead to the next whatever.

- The villains must've looked awful on paper. They spend most of their time talking about one thing and hanging around a warehouse. Keaton and Woodbine gave dull characters real life.

- The movie kinda wants to be serious and kinda wants to be funny, but I think if you go the route they tried to go, everything needed to be played more broadly.

- Vulture's costume was fucking cool and a great piece of production design.

- The first, I dunno, half dozen cameos cameos were sorta fun. But they kept adding more and more and more. It started to grate. The Glover role was distracting and me wistful for what might have been.

- All of Ned's lines could have been reduced to "That's awesome!" and had the same impact. Love interest Liz had no discernible personality. The rest of the kids are so dorky that they'd get picked on by Skreech from "Saved by the Bell." FFS, even the school bully is on the Academic Decathlon team. I know it's Disney, but this movie tried way too hard to be wholesome.

- I wish Zendaya had more scenes. She has charisma and her character had personality. I don't know why they sidelined her. I kinda wished "Homecoming" was a teen comedy about her rather than another lifeless superhero vehicle.

- Shout out to the Lego / Star Wars product placement. Real subtle there, Disney.

- This is the second Spider-man movie where [

Show Spoiler

the villain is the father of someone close to the hero

] and the second MCU movie where [

Show Spoiler

there's a climactic fight scene on an airplane. (Speaking of which: The image of an out of control plane rushing toward the NYC skyline was tacky. Maybe somebody on the production team shoulda noticed? Or maybe they did and they didn't care?)

]

- There's that adage about how a movie needs "three good scenes and no bad ones." This didn't have any bad scenes, but it didn't have any good ones either.

- This is one of the best reviewed movies in the MCU. What the hell is wrong with critics? I get that it's popcorn stuff and summer fun, but why champion something that's so aggressively mediocre?

- IB4 Skitch says he "liked it."

[Skitch]

- IB4 Skitch says he "liked it."

What?

[Dukefrukem]

What?

In before

[TGM]

Welcome to the team, Irish.

[Skitch]

In before

Still lost.

[transmogrifier]

- This is one of the best reviewed movies in the MCU. What the hell is wrong with critics? I get that it's popcorn stuff and summer fun, but why champion something that's so aggressively mediocre?

For me, the headscratcher is Dr. Strange. So formulaic and tired - and it's the best (or second best? idk) reviewed MCU movie

[TGM]

They're both headscratchers in that regard.

[Dukefrukem]

Welcome to the team, Irish.

Irish's critique makes sense. You saying this movie has no charm does not.

[TGM]

What was charming about this movie?

[Dukefrukem]

just to name a few:

Young people problems
Ned and Parker's relationship
Parker's relationship with his classmates
A kid who is new at being a superhero (who makes mistakes)
A villain who is new at being a super villain (who makes mistakes)
Parker and Happy
Parker and his Aunt

[Dukefrukem]

Oh and the ending.

[TGM]

Doesn't make sense to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[number8]

The rest of the kids are so dorky that they'd get picked on by Skreech from "Saved by the Bell." FFS, even the school bully is on the Academic Decathlon team. I know it's Disney, but this movie tried way too hard to be wholesome.

I think they glossed this over in the movie other than set dressing, but Peter's school in the movie is called Midtown Science High. It's modeled very heavily after the Bronx High School of Science (down to the school logo), which is a specialized STEM-focused high school. Pretty much every student who attend there is a really smart nerd.

[number8]

This doesn't really have anything to do with the current convo but I posted this on FB a few days ago. Thought I'd repost it here.

So the movie's been out for months, right? It's safe for me to mention my favorite part from SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING? Because it's when Spider-Man got stuck in the Vulture's trap and started crying because he's scared.

When else do you typically see that in action movies, let alone superhero movies? In films, the rare instances that male action heroes are shown crying without it being framed as a joke, it's usually because they had just lost a loved one. Harry Osborn for Tobey Maguire's Spidey, Gwen Stacy for Andrew Garfield's Spidey, plus countless vigilantes whose cardboard wives or daughters were slaughtered to provide motive; but those are tears they shed to punctuate their care of others, as a socially acceptable extension of their heroic masculinity. It's crafting a performance of vulnerability based on the physical vulnerability of others, rather than their own.

Tom Holland's Spidey, however, was trapped under rubble and started crying because he was hurt and he didn't want to die but Iron Daddy and others weren't around to save him when he called for help. This is such a great image to paint with a superhero character. It's letting go of the nonsensical pretense that a man has to maintain bravery and present an idealized masculine front even when he's justifiably scared shitless, lest he be unqualified to be a male role model. This film not only doesn't shame Holland's Spider-Man for openly showing his anxiety, it shows him getting back up and immediately jumping into more dangerous situations, directly defying the notion that men who cry in frustration or fear are ineffectual.

Anyway, just thought I'd say all this because I stubbed my toe a few minutes ago and started crying and I believe that makes me very heroic.

[Dukefrukem]

I'm sad you post that kind of analysis on Facebook and not here.

[Irish]

I think they glossed this over in the movie other than set dressing, but Peter's school in the movie is called Midtown Science High. It's modeled very heavily after the Bronx High School of Science (down to the school logo), which is a specialized STEM-focused high school. Pretty much every student who attend there is a really smart nerd.

Oh, hehe, I know Bronx Science. (But that's a story for a different time.)

It wasn't about them being nerds, or even nerdy. It was that they were boring, and the nerds I knew in high school were anything but boring. The kids in "Homecoming" are sweet a good natured to a fault. They're like nerd saints.

I wouldn't expect Disney to present full on Heathers / Clueless / 10 Things I Hate About You or anything but I would expect them to give the characters discernible personalities, to be smarter than they were here, and maybe not so absolutely cowed by authority. The only one had any life to them was the girl played by Zendaya.

Prime example: When Ned "hacks" into the suit and Peter asks him to turn off training-wheel mode, the kid says, "But that might be illegal!" No self respecting highschool nerd would talk like that to one of their peers.

They weren't so much nerds as dorks.

[number8]

That's fair, although I think the point was to make Peter the reckless irresponsible nerd of their nerd group. I did like that since they chose to set it in that kind of school, they had to make Flash Thompson the academic version of a jock.

I really wish there was more Zendaya in this.

[Irish]

Tom Holland's Spidey, however, was trapped under rubble and started crying because he was hurt and he didn't want to die but Iron Daddy and others weren't around to save him when he called for help. This is such a great image to paint with a superhero character.

On the whole, I agree with you. It's absolutely refreshing to see a hero portrayed that way, especially in this type of movie.

I would have respected the moment and the character more if he had been trying and failing all that time alone---the way he's often portrayed in the comics---and then got hurt and frustrated. That would have made him more human and relatable. Crying out for Daddy Stark made him seem weaker and more immature.

[Irish]

just to name a few:

Young people problems
Ned and Parker's relationship
Parker's relationship with his classmates
A kid who is new at being a superhero (who makes mistakes)
A villain who is new at being a super villain (who makes mistakes)
Parker and Happy
Parker and his Aunt

I agree that all of this is charming, to one degree or another, but what makes it work is the cast, not the material. Holland, Zendaya, Keaton, Tomei, Woodbine were all absolutely ace. There only reason this movie wasn't dull as hell is because each of them put energy and verve into their performances.

But -- and it's a big but -- the ceaseless Marvel cross-marketing sucked the life out of everything. Instead of a movie about how power means responsibility, we got a movie about how cool it would be to be an Avenger.

[Dukefrukem]

In the movie's defense, the whole 'with great power comes great responsibility' angle... is played the fuck out.