Wonder Woman (Patty Jenkins)

[Dukefrukem]

We are so giving Jenkins a pass on this.

[Peng]

We are so not.

[Dukefrukem]

There's a good movie somewhere in there, but overall it's a mixed bag, looks terrible and once again, is an unfun DC film.

[Ivan Drago]

Away from Match Cut.

I was thinking of KF when I was in the theater being kind of annoyed with Huston.

I can't not think of this place when I see Danny Huston in anything.

[Sycophant]

We are so giving Jenkins a pass on this.

It sounds like YOU sure aren't giving Jenkins a pass!

It DOES sound a bit like you're accusing some other people's reactions of being insincere, though!

Rad!

[Spinal]

I don't really like superhero movies much.

I like this movie for a few reasons:

1) The creation of female-centered iconography around the stock superhero character. Diana is thankfully not a Supergirl or a Batgirl. She has her own unique backstory and is not a second-hand copy. It impossible to view this film in a vacuum. This film clashes wonderfully with contemporary backwards political thinking regarding women's place in American society. (and probably elsewhere ... I'll speak for the country I inhabit)
2) Diana's role as an innocent and an alien. When she enters into a war-soaked world, her reaction is basically to look around and wonder what the hell we're all doing. I like that the film encourages us to view these images of war through fresh eyes.
3) The film remembers that superhero stories are best when the themes of good and evil are writ large. I get bored of tracking minutiae through superhero movies regarding shadowy government organizations and obscure bits of trivia. This film is very earnest when speaking of love, when denouncing war, when celebrating sacrifice. It embraces its mythic origins and harnesses that power.
4) Diana, as embodied by Gal Gadot, is HUGELY charismatic. She is beautiful, strong, thoughtful. Sexy, but not a sexual object. And despite her enormous power, the film humanizes her with humor and with allowing her to be distracted by attraction.
5) It showed me something I have never seen before on film. As I was watching the early battle between German soldiers and bow-wielding warrior women, I realized to myself that this was entirely new imagery for me to process and consider. To point to other films and ignore the fact that particular battle involved an army of all women vs an army of all men would be to miss the point, I think.

Bonus reason: It allows me to stop feeling like I have to half-heartedly defend the Ghostbusters remake.

[Skitch]

There were so many ways this could have been completely screwed up, and it wasn't at all. I'm not throwing around 10s here or anything, but damn was this enjoyable and satisfying. This is as good an origin film for Wonder Woman as I could've ever hoped to have. I fought back tears of inspiration during the No Mans Land sequence. My wife cried several times. The 12 year old (who is subjected to every comic book movie because of me), could not stop smiling afterward. She loved it, and said its probably her favorite comic book movie ever. I don't blame her a bit.

[Dukefrukem]

It sounds like YOU sure aren't giving Jenkins a pass!

It DOES sound a bit like you're accusing some other people's reactions of being insincere, though!

Rad!

When I see MC time over time banish movies over exposition and then completely ignore the same exposition in movies like this, it's just so hard to take some of you seriously.

[Dukefrukem]

We should at least all agree this is a gross looking movie right? I suppose it has to be because of Nolan and Synder, but jeeze. Add some color. Turn up the saturation.

[transmogrifier]

I hate two indestructible foes going at it in general as a way to end a film, but I hate it even more when the protagonist wins because something happens that makes them particularly angry or sad (especially when they are on the verge of defeat) and suddenly out of convenience they become slightly MORE indestructible and win. It is literally the least creative way you could possibly think to end a movie. Add in silly stuff like conveniently finding a car when you need it, or obvious misdirection regarding who is pulling the strings and oh-my-God-who-writes-this-stuff lines like "It is love that saves the world" or whatever that was at the end and you have yet another slapdash tentpole. I don't get the praise at all. And the lead character is as boring as Superman.

Something like Logan worked because it had a beautifully conceived backstory rooted in the character itself, with all the story beats filtered through how he reconciles his past with who he is as a person and who he wants to be, and he has genuine personal relationship to forge and/or protect (or not, if he wants to). There is nothing like that in Wonder Woman, because she is just dropped in the human world to react and represent big, broad values. She never, ever seems genuine. Her intentions are never in doubt - the thing at the end with the holding of the tank above her head is totally suspense free because the movie does not for a second ever even attempt to suggest she would ever do what is threatened. It is manufactured drama in a banal story.

[Dukefrukem]

I love you trans. I said the same thing: https://letterboxd.com/dukefrukem/fi...er-woman-2017/

Finding the car in the middle of the woods, I threw my hands up and looked around my theater. Wut??

[Wryan]

She never, ever seems genuine. Her intentions are never in doubt.

If the second is true, doesn't that mean she is genuine?

Also, I thought it was obvious that the guy found the car where they had been parking everyone else's cars for the gala. In the field.

[Dukefrukem]

If the second is true, doesn't that mean she is genuine?

Also, I thought it was obvious that the guy found the car where they had been parking everyone else's cars for the gala. In the field.

So all the cars were parked outside the gate and before invitations where checked? Oh and a WWI German party would allow people to stroll in without invitations?

Also Katharine Trendacosta makes a great point.

[Wryan]

I suspect their drivers act as valet and move the cars after the VIPs get checked in. They gotta keep all those cars somewhere. People should be angrier at the shoddy security in the parking field. Lettin' a native just stroll in like that. Unconscionable.

[Pop Trash]

I liked about 75% of this. All the

[

Show Spoiler

Ares stuff annoyed me. I realize these movies feel they need a big boss man to fight at the end, but it would have been much stronger if Ares never showed up or was previously dead or was just a mythos in the first place. I guess within this universe Greek Gods exist, but it would be nice to point out the folly of mankind has nothing to do with gods or God or religion in general and is just men in power being shitheads over dumb stuff (which is exactly what World War I was about).

]

[Izzy Black]

Something like Logan worked because it had a beautifully conceived backstory rooted in the character itself, with all the story beats filtered through how he reconciles his past with who he is as a person and who he wants to be, and he has genuine personal relationship to forge and/or protect (or not, if he wants to). There is nothing like that in Wonder Woman, because she is just dropped in the human world to react and represent big, broad values. She never, ever seems genuine. Her intentions are never in doubt - the thing at the end with the holding of the tank above her head is totally suspense free because the movie does not for a second ever even attempt to suggest she would ever do what is threatened. It is manufactured drama in a banal story.

I thought it was a pretty surprising moment in the film, a moment that to me has not been discussed enough, that she initially decided not to help Steve stop the Germans at the end. It's not to say that she wavers on her most basic duties, but she did waver at the very least on her (apparently conditional) commitment to save human beings. Of course, you might think, given the norms of the genre, she's obviously going to come through in the end, she's a superhero after all, but that wavering is pretty significant thematically nonetheless, and says a lot about her character, arc, and what kind of hero she is.

[Skitch]

Also, I thought it was obvious that the guy found the car where they had been parking everyone else's cars for the gala. In the field.

It was.

[Sycophant]

Bonus reason: It allows me to stop feeling like I have to half-heartedly defend the Ghostbusters remake.

We can still defend it against the dumb sexist backlash/forelash, even if the movie itself doesn't really deserve a vigorous defense on its artistic or entertainment merits.

And it's still not like it's the worst movie in the over-esteemed, ahem, franchise.

[Sycophant]

When I see MC time over time banish movies over exposition and then completely ignore the same exposition in movies like this, it's just so hard to take some of you seriously.

Ignoring the bit where you attack the supposed MC hivemind, 1) I personally am never particularly bothered with exposition in principle, unless it's really clunky, and 2) I'm not sure what we're talking about w/r/t exposition in this movie.

Another thing I like about this movie (btw, I could probably just quote Spinal for a list of the things I most like) in contrast to a lot of other recent tentpole blockbusters is that despite its pretty driven plot momentum, the film has a better sense of hanging out and letting the characters breathe. The scene between Diana and Steve on the boat is really nice. Those two get the most attention, but that's fine since they're the two protagonists. Their relationship is developed better than a lot of actual romances.

[Sycophant]

Also Katharine Trendacosta makes a great point.

Steve is our representative of humanity. He's a very good representative. But he is, after all, still a man.

[Sycophant]

I hate two indestructible foes going at it in general as a way to end a film, but I hate it even more when the protagonist wins because something happens that makes them particularly angry or sad (especially when they are on the verge of defeat) and suddenly out of convenience they become slightly MORE indestructible and win. It is literally the least creative way you could possibly think to end a movie. Add in silly stuff like conveniently finding a car when you need it, or obvious misdirection regarding who is pulling the strings and oh-my-God-who-writes-this-stuff lines like "It is love that saves the world" or whatever that was at the end and you have yet another slapdash tentpole. I don't get the praise at all. And the lead character is as boring as Superman.

Reading responses like this is interesting. I tend not to like superhero movies, and yet I really liked this one.

[Clarifying note: obviously I disagree with your take, but I dig where you're coming from, and am curious to work out where the differences in our reads come from]

Everything you outline is, probably, on paper the most annoying genre conventions in superhero movies. But I liked it here. I liked that a powerful emotion of love gave Diana a surge of power and the upper hand in a stalemate fight between two gods.

I think it's the lack of pretense and irony that sells it for me. I'd never buy Tony Stark monologuing about love, but Wonder Woman just means it so well. It's hard, in my post-Gen X cultural milieu, not to be a little cheeky or snarky about such a simple, earnest, even hackneyed statement. "Love saves the world" is a pretty straightforward, unnuanced message, but the film owns it. In another movie, it would be perfunctory, but Wonder Woman makes it the point. It bakes it into the very thematic and narrative structure of this movie, and I love it.

I like genre conventions when they're executed well. I genuinely think most contemporary superhero movies (literally everything in the MCU I've seen) executes them poorly/shoddily/boringly.

Need to see Logan, though.

[Skitch]

Need to see Logan, though.

I'd bet good money you're going to like it. Its very against convention, imo. An emotional horror film.

I can't argue against trans' points. But I agree it worked for me more in this film than others.

I still can almost get misty at that very early scene of young Diana just running down the street. I was so struck. Its HER movie. We've seen boys do this dozens of times to the point its old hat. But the camera was on HER. This film is HERS. Can't wait to rewatch this without a bunch of obnoxious strangers.

[Dukefrukem]

I forgot to mention, that I thought the trench scene was by far the best part of the movie- and I'm being 100% sincere when I say this, but I teared up when Diana spun around revealing her 'crown' "That's why I'm here" . It felt really powerful to me. And then she climbed out of the trenches. I typically HATE slow-mo but I thought it worked really well here.

Apparently I'm not alone.

[Skitch]

I started tearing up there too, and I thought I was just being a dork until I looked over and my wife had tears streaming. Shes not a comic book nerd either. Then it was crazy hard to fight back the waterworks. The damn score kept swelling at that scene too, every time I thought it was going to breathe it lifted again and wow.

When she flipped that tank a couple minutes later it took all of my energy to restrain myself from screaming out "AND FUCK YOU TOO!!". I'm not exaggerating.

[transmogrifier]

Even the fish-out-of-water stuff was done better in Thor.

I don't know; is Wonder Woman some sort of American cultural touchstone that I missed out on in little old New Zealand? Because I honestly cannot for the life of me see why this gets a pass.... but then again, that goes for a lot of other superhero films as well, such as Dr. Strange and Civil War.