View Poll Results: Wonder Woman

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Thread: Wonder Woman (Patty Jenkins)

  1. #76
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Milky Joe (view post)
    Baffled by the hype for this... it's just another average superhero movie, barely competent at best. I have to assume it's a political thing, or just the novelty of it being about WOMEN, even though it's kinda actually not.

    "Wonder Woman... more like Wonder STEVE." - my gf
    You felt like Steve was more of the hero/star than Diana?

  2. #77
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    You felt like Steve was more of the hero/star than Diana?
    Honestly, not gonna lie, but there were points during the film where I thought the exact same thing. :\

  3. #78
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Wow. I felt like he was constantly in the way. I felt like he was doing his best and was constantly out shined by her. As he should have.

  4. #79
    Scott of the Antarctic Milky Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    You felt like Steve was more of the hero/star than Diana?
    An awful lot of the movie was centered around Diana's (and others') reacting to Steve rather than the other way around. It doesn't help that Chris Pine is so recognizable at this point as to not blend into the movie at all, so his character is just "Chris Pine, movie star," basically indistinguishable from any of his other movies. He also was the one who ultimately saved the day (as he says), and his death was what provided Diana with the necessary resolve to defeat Ares.
    ‎The severed arm perfectly acquitted itself, because of the simplicity of its wishes and its total lack of doubt.

  5. #80
    Unfortunate CGI climax (and main villain) aside, I thought this was awesome.

    Finally, a film that really commits to (and succeeds at) iconic image-making while telling a cohesive story that isn't bogged down by an overwhelming plot or franchise tie-ins. Jenkins accomplishes here what other directors have failed to do with Superman or, frankly, any Marvel character -- she has created a super hero who is both knowable and larger than life. I'm not entirely sold on Gadot's acting chops, but her face is mise-en-scène in itself. Definitely a star-maker. Most importantly, this film made me feel. Despite its origins or intentions, it doesn't seem like a movie that's entirely about cinematic-universe propulsion, as these other hero movies have increasingly found themselves lost in. In particular, the imagery and emotions evoked from the island battle are the result of some beautiful self-contained movie-making. So many other scenes like that as well.

    No, I am not being tricked by the film's politics, though I think it's more than admirable in that regard. It's just an exceedingly well-made movie that handles its human elements with effective delight, humor, and sadness, as appropriate. Certainly, there are elements to pick apart -- can we stop with overwhelming CG'ed finales? -- but relative to what else is being churned at both DC and Marvel, this is top shelf.
    letterboxd.

    A Star is Born (2018) **1/2
    Unforgiven (1992) ***1/2
    The Sisters Brothers (2018) **
    Crazy Rich Asians (2018) ***
    The Informant! (2009) ***1/2
    BlacKkKlansman (2018) ***1/2
    Sorry to Bother You (2018) **1/2
    Eighth Grade (2018) ***
    Mission Impossible: Fallout (2018) ***
    Ant-Man and The Wasp (2018) **1/2

  6. #81
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    The movie is pretty apolitical, despite what anyone on either said wants to say. There's the mere fact of its existence, and what minimal amount you get from the source material, but beyond that, the movie plays it safe as possible as far as politics is concerned. Which is fine by me. I prefer a good old fashioned Wonder Woman movie anyways.

  7. #82
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    Sure, but I think when people talk about it being a politically-weighted movie, they're talking about the external pressures of its existence rather than any of its content. Which is what I was sort of getting at in my original post: if it was so boat-rocking already, it probably wouldn't have hurt or help the film to be a little more explicit in what it's only currently hinting at.

    There are actually a few things in the movie that I can't decide are attempts to insert subtext without notice or WB's walking back on elements that were previously text, like the fact that Wonder Woman arrives in Europe in this movie directly before women got the right to vote, or the fact that she comes to her own as a hero in an area called No Man's Land.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
    Movie Theater Diary

  8. #83
    The Pan Spinal's Avatar
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    A few days ago, I was driving down the street and saw a little girl walking along the sidewalk with her mom. The kid was decked out in full Wonder Woman attire, complete with sword. I thought, "That's what it's all about right there."
    Coming to America (Landis, 1988) **
    The Beach Bum (Korine, 2019) *1/2
    Us (Peele, 2019) ***1/2
    Fugue (Smoczynska, 2018) ***1/2
    Prisoners (Villeneuve, 2013) ***1/2
    Shadow (Zhang, 2018) ***
    Oslo, August 31st (J. Trier, 2011) ****
    Climax (Noé, 2018) **1/2
    Fighting With My Family (Merchant, 2019) **
    Upstream Color (Carruth, 2013) ***

  9. #84
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    I was surprised that my audience didn't laugh more at the "men are entirely unnecessary for female pleasure" line.
    A-ha. I came across this review today by someone who attended the Drafthouse showing that gave me a eureka moment:

    I had prepared myself for something ecstatic and wild. During the movie there was cheering and applause, but not the excited vibration of a concert that I had dreamed up. The energy was mostly pleasant and relaxed. Comfortable. When Diana wryly remarks on the uselessness of men for pleasure, it provoked the biggest reaction of the audience, so loud that I missed the following couple of lines. No fear of offending anyone present, no need to reassure a partner later that of course she wasn’t laughing at him.
    So I just asked my lady (who I remember only lightly chuckling) and she pretty much agreed without hesitation that she believes she would've laughed a lot harder at that line if she was in a room with only women present.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
    Movie Theater Diary

  10. #85
    Since 1929 Morris Schæffer's Avatar
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    This didn't really work for me. The Themyscira sequences were a little corny replete with bad accents and silly action scenes. Then, they get to London and here I actually found myself quite amused by the fish out of water stuff, the movie is at its most engaging here. Simply people conversing, Diana trying out dresses, the secretary is pretty funny. I think Pine and Gadot have some good chemistry during these sequences. The team recruitement is fine too, always good to see Ewan Bremner and Said Taghmaoui. For a moment I found myself looking forward to an exciting men-on-a-mission flick. Then the mission starts and it's just typical bullshit of overpowered superheroes saving the day with the ease that I change underwear every other day while the puny humans pretend to make a difference too by firing a few guns. Is it special because it's a woman? Don't be daft. That it takes place during World War I, a truly horrific moment in human history does this movie no favors at all and I would say that the No Man's land sequence makes a mockery of this conflict. Perhaps superheroes and real World Wars are a big fat no-no although Captain America: The First Avenger did it a little better by not literally putting Steve Rogers in the 1914-1918 trenches.

    Then David Thewlis becomes evil because, uh, well either because Diana whined about Ares for sooo goddamn long that he had to show up or because they realized they killed Danny Huston way too soon. Hilarious that they show him sniffing that crazy powerful shit except he's as useful as a limp cock.

    Then it goes crazy with lightning, CGI splosions and it all becomes even more exhausting than I could have ever predicted.

    I have no idea why I love Superman 1978 so much and am unable to feel that same sense of elation and joy here.
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  11. #86
    Scott of the Antarctic Milky Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Morris Schæffer (view post)
    That it takes place during World War I, a truly horrific moment in human history does this movie no favors at all and I would say that the No Man's land sequence makes a mockery of this conflict.
    I had this same thought actually. It was perilously close to outright disrespectful. I think there's a reason there haven't been all that many movies or videogames made about WWI. It was not a noble conflict in any way, shape, or form. So Diana going in there and slaughtering a bunch of Germans so that the English soldiers can take over a meaningless trench 100 yards ahead of them is actually kind of fucked up and totally against the whole idea of her 'mission' to stop senseless slaughter.

    The whole portrayal of WWI-era Germany as Pure Evil the way WWII movies portray Nazis was lazy and stupid. They redeemed it a little bit by having Ares actually be an Englishman, but not enough.
    ‎The severed arm perfectly acquitted itself, because of the simplicity of its wishes and its total lack of doubt.

  12. #87
    Since 1929 Morris Schæffer's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    I hate two indestructible foes going at it in general as a way to end a film, but I hate it even more when the protagonist wins because something happens that makes them particularly angry or sad (especially when they are on the verge of defeat) and suddenly out of convenience they become slightly MORE indestructible and win. It is literally the least creative way you could possibly think to end a movie. Add in silly stuff like conveniently finding a car when you need it, or obvious misdirection regarding who is pulling the strings and oh-my-God-who-writes-this-stuff lines like "It is love that saves the world" or whatever that was at the end and you have yet another slapdash tentpole.
    100% with ya there.
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  13. #88
    Since 1929 Morris Schæffer's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    I forgot to mention, that I thought the trench scene was by far the best part of the movie- and I'm being 100% sincere when I say this, but I teared up when Diana spun around revealing her 'crown' "That's why I'm here" . It felt really powerful to me. And then she climbed out of the trenches. I typically HATE slow-mo but I thought it worked really well here.

    Apparently I'm not alone.
    Yes, that one moment as you describe it is somewhat cool. And then she climbed out of the trenches and one of the bloodiest conflicts in human history is reduced to an afterthought as Diana singlehandedly owerpowers the nazis (or paves the way for her allies) by running towards them.
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  14. #89
    Since 1929 Morris Schæffer's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)

    When she flipped that tank a couple minutes later it took all of my energy to restrain myself from screaming out "AND FUCK YOU TOO!!". I'm not exaggerating.


    I wish I would have felt that too. We know the nazis were awful and have perpetrated horrific crimes, but not in this movie. Commeupance can be thrilling when there is a sense of opposition, but during the No Man's Land sequence the only feel we get for the difficulty of the mission is when Pine, who in this scene has transformed from Captain Kirk into Captain exposition, informs Diana the men haven't made any progress at all because of the machine guns awaiting them on the other side. It's not climactic, it's not emotionally powerful and, much to my despair, all I could think was: "It wasn't like that. It was never that easy."
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  15. #90
    Scott of the Antarctic Milky Joe's Avatar
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    For the love of God, WWI Germans ≠ Nazis.
    ‎The severed arm perfectly acquitted itself, because of the simplicity of its wishes and its total lack of doubt.

  16. #91
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Morris, you're not wrong in being uncomfortable with the WWI backdrop because of how awful it was. But the same logic could be applied to any/all movies that deal with real armed conflict, whether the story is fictional or based in fact. WW is an example of it being fictional. You could also say that Hamburger Hill exploits a terrible true conflict for entertainment profit. Obviously they're important as teaching tools, but money still went into pockets.

    Again, you're not wrong. Its the main reason I avoid (and extremely rarely enjoy) any films around our involvement in the Middle East in my lifetime. Its off-putting to me to look to those films in any enjoyable fashion.

  17. #92
    The Pan Spinal's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman - does it really need to be said? - is not intended to be a realistic depiction of WWI. It is not an attempt to create a vision of "how things were". The character of Diana operates as symbol and metaphor. The film asks us to consider how history may have been different if humanity had a stronger dose of traditionally feminine qualities such as empathy and compassion in our culture instead of masculine chest-thumping.
    Coming to America (Landis, 1988) **
    The Beach Bum (Korine, 2019) *1/2
    Us (Peele, 2019) ***1/2
    Fugue (Smoczynska, 2018) ***1/2
    Prisoners (Villeneuve, 2013) ***1/2
    Shadow (Zhang, 2018) ***
    Oslo, August 31st (J. Trier, 2011) ****
    Climax (Noé, 2018) **1/2
    Fighting With My Family (Merchant, 2019) **
    Upstream Color (Carruth, 2013) ***

  18. #93
    Since 1929 Morris Schæffer's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    Morris, you're not wrong in being uncomfortable with the WWI backdrop because of how awful it was. But the same logic could be applied to any/all movies that deal with real armed conflict, whether the story is fictional or based in fact. WW is an example of it being fictional. You could also say that Hamburger Hill exploits a terrible true conflict for entertainment profit. Obviously they're important as teaching tools, but money still went into pockets.
    I'm not uncomfortable with the WWI backdrop because of how awful that conflict was, but rather that Wonder Woman makes it appear decidedly less awful. I didn't find that scene engaging.

    @Spinal: That's a shaky argument to make when we see Wonder Woman charging into battle kamikaze-style. She may not fire any traditional weapons, but she sure paves the way for the good guys to murder the non-nazi Germans. She takes down a sniper by destroying an entire church which is not an action I associate with empathy and compassion.
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  19. #94
    My understanding of Diana's motivations in that sequence is that she was attempting to liberate the occupied town from the German forces. Her understanding of the war is necessarily naive, partial, and local, and that the suffering of non-combatants drives her to fight.

  20. #95
    По́мните Катю... Izzy Black's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Morris Schæffer (view post)


    I wish I would have felt that too. We know the nazis were awful and have perpetrated horrific crimes, but not in this movie. Commeupance can be thrilling when there is a sense of opposition, but during the No Man's Land sequence the only feel we get for the difficulty of the mission is when Pine, who in this scene has transformed from Captain Kirk into Captain exposition, informs Diana the men haven't made any progress at all because of the machine guns awaiting them on the other side. It's not climactic, it's not emotionally powerful and, much to my despair, all I could think was: "It wasn't like that. It was never that easy."
    As syncophant noted, she's not familiar with modern warfare and the power of German artillery. Steve's trying to explain to her the concept of no man's land as quickly as possibly because he wants them to move on. His claim wasn't "Problem is those big guns over there. If we just find a way to get rid of those, we'd be good to go. That simple". To the contrary, his point was that saving the non-combatants was hopeless, that it was essentially impossible. She balks. She shows him that he underestimates her abilities. The entire build up to this moment was marked by her comrades underestimating (or being simply unaware of) her abilities. We needn't forget: she's a demigod. It's a ridiculous, revisionist fantasy, of course (no man's land the perfect symbol for inevitability and despair), but it's a superhero movie.

  21. #96

  22. #97
    btw i am one of those big fucking idiots that thought this took place in wwii

    to be fair, they hardly did a good job distinguishing this from a movie set in wwii by making the germans out to be the "baddies" and the brits the "good guys"

    also to be fair i was pretty stoned

  23. #98
    Sunrise, Sunset Wryan's Avatar
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    Yeah WWI was a clusterfuck of humanity. It was a nasty, sordid affair for all concerned and teetered near the opening edge of modern warfare, which would see full flowering in the sequel. While mustard gas (essentially) was a plot point in WW, it was sort of muted in its delivery (Trevor coughs a bit getting close, villagers are just sort of generally around, dead). Recall, instead, Owen's depiction:

    If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
    Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
    And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
    His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
    If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
    Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
    Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
    Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
    My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
    To children ardent for some desperate glory,
    The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
    Pro patria mori.
    If ever there was a war to drive that home, with no great big obvious Bogeymen to unify against, it was the "Great War."
    Last edited by Wryan; 06-27-2017 at 04:52 PM.
    "How is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home wine-making course and forgot how to drive?"

    --Homer

  24. #99

  25. #100
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Henry Gale (view post)
    Hey! They made a good one!
    Pretty much, yeah. Many times during the film I was genuinely thrilled and involved but then there'd be a sort of lame scene and I thought "well, still, this is a MOVIE, someone actually sat down and wrote a three-act structure". It's incredible how low Snyder and company left the bar for the DCU. I agree with many who said this film felt like it was in the Richard Donner mold more than any superhero outing. I think that's because of character development, frankly. Sure, the Donner Superman films haven't aged well in many aspects with their memory erasing smooching and tragedy reversing flying skills, but they still work for most audiences because the script takes its time to develop character and relationships and I think that's something Jenkins and her team did really well here. Also, Gadot might not be Isabelle Huppert exactly, but she gave a convincing performance here. When she's angry or worried I really bought it; same when she was happy. Also, I'd seen her in the Fast and Furious films, but I'd forgotten she had such a distinctive voice.

    I also noticed the color thing mentioned in that last video and loved it. It's like the movie is having an aesthetic conversation with Man of Steel and Batman v Superman and using their monochrome world in London as an antithesis to Temyscira and this new heroine they're introducing. And clearly, the best thing this cinematic universe can do at this point is turn against itself. See if they can fix Batman, for example. I also agree with many statements made throughout the thread, namely that the final confrontation is the worst part (it's suddenly a videogame) and that the film is at its very best during the "fish out of water" scenes. I also wish they'd pushed the gender themes further since they're at the heart of the Wonder Woman character. The film in general has some writing problems. The villains are underdeveloped to a fault. That rare scene where Dr. Poison and the General are laughing like naughty schoolchildren is great but it hints at a fun combo that's nowhere to found in the rest of the film.

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