View Poll Results: Wonder Woman

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Thread: Wonder Woman (Patty Jenkins)

  1. #51
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    I don't know; is Wonder Woman some sort of American cultural touchstone that I missed out on in little old New Zealand?
    It is, because (8 correct me if I'm wrong) it was the first female comic book superhero. Originated in 1941. Considering the political landscape at the time, it was revolutionary for a female to have her own book. And its taken way too fucking long for her to have her own film. We often think we've progressed so far since then, but it took until 2017 to get her own movie. How many wiener heroes movies have we had?

  2. #52
    Understandable - but doesn't make the actual movie itself any better
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  3. #53
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Again, I can't argue that point, sir.

  4. #54
    On the other hand I'd argue that it does impact the movie, probably for the better. When a character's an icon, it's going to change how we read the character. Everything culturally meaningful in that character gets written onto her in the context of the film. I think Wonder Woman takes Wonder Woman seriously as an icon, which is something precious few superhero movies have done. There's a strong intertextual power invested in her image, and Jenkins and her DP (Matthew Jensen)'s camera grapples with, I think. It's something I liked about Superman Returns, too.

    On the other hand, Jill Lapore argues that the film doesn't pay enough tribute to WW's legacy and position. I come at this from the position of a layperson. I don't really know comic heroes outside their really mainstream representations.

  5. #55

    Wonder Woman (Patty Jenkins)

    Oh, and the way the final conversation between Steve and Diana is handled is ridiculous. Apparently Diana was briefly deaf and then suddenly remembered what she heard when she was deaf (!) or Jenkins deafened the audience only for plot convenience.... that's symptomatic of the reason I don't like the film - it's shoddily put together.

    I very much liked the relationship between Steve and Diana - it's the only thing that really works.
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  6. #56
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Sycophant (view post)
    On the other hand, Jill Lapore argues that the film doesn't pay enough tribute to WW's legacy and position. I come at this from the position of a layperson. I don't really know comic heroes outside their really mainstream representations.
    Oh wow. I was surprised how much of the original back story they adhered to but I'm no WW expert. I thought they did a great job combining her different origin stories. Hell, the only thing I thought they didn't touch on was the invisible jet and thats dumb anyway. 8 is the comic guru around here, not me, I am but a padawan. Love to hear his thoughts on all this.
    Last edited by Skitch; 06-08-2017 at 09:17 PM.

  7. #57
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    Oh, and the way the final conversation between Steve and Diana is handled is ridiculous. Apparently Diana was briefly deaf and then suddenly remembered what she heard when she was deaf (!) or Jenkins deafened the audience only for plot convenience....
    #1 reason why I'm not giving this a better score. That was the thing I most disliked about the entire film.

  8. #58
    Sunrise, Sunset Wryan's Avatar
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    I may be misremembering details, but I thought they cut away toward the end of the deafness, and when they went back to it later, it was like a "finishing the rest of the scene" kind of thing. That's how I took it at least. But I don't recall the moment with perfect fidelity.
    "How is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home wine-making course and forgot how to drive?"

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  9. #59
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Wryan (view post)
    I may be misremembering details, but I thought they cut away toward the end of the deafness, and when they went back to it later, it was like a "finishing the rest of the scene" kind of thing. That's how I took it at least. But I don't recall the moment with perfect fidelity.
    So it was representing the audience being deaf? Not sure what you mean here.
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  10. #60
    Pretty sure we see Steve hand over the watch and run away both times...
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  11. #61
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    - The thing I was disapppointed in the most was how similar it is to Captain America The First Avenger. I thought it was going to feel that way just because it's a period war movie, but it is beat by beat. The villains are the same. The sidekicks are faux Howling Commandos. It even ends with the same doomsday plane sacrifice.

    - I will gladly admit that I'm "giving the movie a pass," but not for the reason some people probably cynically think. I'm soft on it because I think this is one of the best realizations of a superhero's essence I've seen a movie translate. Certainly the best one from DC. I've never seen a DC movie, even the ones I think are good, make me feel "That's it! That's them!" before in their handling of the character. When I think of who Wonder Woman is, I think of honesty and love for humanity despite them disappointing her. Someone who sees her mission in a much more macro view than Superman or Batman. This movie really gets that, which makes it feel new compared to other superhero stories we've gotten that are always more personal stories. Diana has personal tragedies here, but they don't seem to drive her as much as her ambassadorship. That's beautiful.

    - I completely agree that the No Man's Land trench sequence is one for the ages. That's a "You've got me? But who's got you?" level of instant classic. My favorite is definitely the boat conversation, though. I don't think much of Gadot as an actor but the way she combines naïveté and teasing in that scene is terrific. I was surprised that my audience didn't laugh more at the "men are entirely unnecessary for female pleasure" line.

    - In the end I have to agree with the Jill Lapore article (and I really, really, really recommend her book, it is a phenomenal history of feminism in America told through Wonder Woman's publishing history) that the movie kind of glosses over her symbolic importance in order to portray this post-feminist hero. Etta Candy briefly mentions her fighting for suffrage during the outfits sequence and Diana, maybe because of her ignorance, didn't respond to it at all. I understood and I'm not gonna fault the movie for it, but I still sank a bit.

    - And I just gotta say it: it's great that we're recognizing Jenkins' historic accomplishment and all, but I wonder if the above point has to do with the fact that this movie was written by three dudes.

    - I am certainly capable of picking it apart some more, but my second point really overwhelms any desire for me to do so. I'm very happy this movie exists. I'm very happy they did not bungle her characterization the way I believe they did with Bats and Supes. It's enough. For now.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  12. #62
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    - I don't think much of Gadot as an actor but the way she combines naïveté and teasing in that scene is terrific. I was surprised that my audience didn't laugh more at the "men are entirely unnecessary for female pleasure" line.
    You bring up a good point here. In Batman v Superman my reaction to her was (yessh, we are getting a whole movie of Gal Gadot?) but she does well with the fish out of water play here. What I am weary of is her performance in Justice League.
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  13. #63
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    People don't credit directors for actors' performances enough.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  14. #64
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    - I completely agree that the No Man's Land trench sequence is one for the ages. That's a "You've got me? But who's got you?" level of instant classic. My favorite is definitely the boat conversation, though. I don't think much of Gadot as an actor but the way she combines naïveté and teasing in that scene is terrific. I was surprised that my audience didn't laugh more at the "men are entirely unnecessary for female pleasure" line.
    You're on the money for Gadot:

    Midnight Run (1988) - 9
    The Smiling Lieutenant (1931) - 8.5
    The Adventures of Robinhood (1938) - 8
    Sisters (1973) - 6.5
    Shin Godzilla (2016) - 7.5

  15. #65
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    That makes me so happy.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  16. #66
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Oh wow thats great.

  17. #67
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    Not sure that I know much about Gal Gadot as an actor, but she's certainly a movie star, which is what really matters in this situation. She "gives good face" to paraphrase Madonna. When we consider her performance, we probably shouldn't be comparing her to Meryl Streep or Helen Mirren. However, if we think about action stars, I'd say her acting is better than Schwarzenegger, Stallone, Travolta and Vin Diesel. It's probably not as good as Jason Statham, Bruce Willis, Charlize Theron or even The Rock.
    Coming to America (Landis, 1988) **
    The Beach Bum (Korine, 2019) *1/2
    Us (Peele, 2019) ***1/2
    Fugue (Smoczynska, 2018) ***1/2
    Prisoners (Villeneuve, 2013) ***1/2
    Shadow (Zhang, 2018) ***
    Oslo, August 31st (J. Trier, 2011) ****
    Climax (Noé, 2018) **1/2
    Fighting With My Family (Merchant, 2019) **
    Upstream Color (Carruth, 2013) ***

  18. #68
    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Uneven flick, especially with its clipped Nolan-esque Thermyscira opening act and its perfunctory villains and its thundersome, crammed climax (Diana gets her Jesus in the Desert temptation with ten minutes to go in the film? Are you serious?). But when the flick is good, it's not just good - it's rousing and heartfelt and alive with the best possible notion of how a superhero can function: as a way for us to re-evaluate the world we live in and how we can respond to it in the best way. My favorite scene had to be the one where she lost her temper at the generals and demanded to know why they weren't out there in the field with their soldiers. It was such a simple, clear declaration of morality that finding it in a DCEU film felt shocking and therapeutic.

    You get glimmers of that in the Captain America films, especially the first one, but it's still so rare - seeing Diana stare at the casualties of war feels borderline revelatory.

    I wish we'd gotten a better sense of the relationship between the two villains, and I think they could've made the time by purging the Wayne Enterprises wraparound (it's enough that we see the picture taken in the middle of the film), and I also wish we'd seen Ares skipping the punch-brawl and instead playing on her despair and anger. There's something inspired about portraying Ares as a proper British gentleman hovering in the air - at the least, it's more interesting than obscuring Thewlis behind war armor, shrieking, and hurling impotent daggers.

  19. #69
    Guttenbergian Pop Trash's Avatar
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    Maaan I so feel I could rewrite this script and turn it into a masterpiece. God(ot)damnit.
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  20. #70
    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    - I will gladly admit that I'm "giving the movie a pass," but not for the reason some people probably cynically think. I'm soft on it because I think this is one of the best realizations of a superhero's essence I've seen a movie translate. Certainly the best one from DC. I've never seen a DC movie, even the ones I think are good, make me feel "That's it! That's them!" before in their handling of the character. When I think of who Wonder Woman is, I think of honesty and love for humanity despite them disappointing her. Someone who sees her mission in a much more macro view than Superman or Batman. This movie really gets that, which makes it feel new compared to other superhero stories we've gotten that are always more personal stories. Diana has personal tragedies here, but they don't seem to drive her as much as her ambassadorship. That's beautiful.
    agree 100%

    i wasn't sold at all by gadot being cast as wonder woman when i first read about it, but i'll be damned if she (and the writers/director) didn't nail the characterization. also what is this thing about gal gadot being an unknown? she was in two of the higher grossing fast and furious movies

  21. #71
    Quote Quoting Wryan (view post)
    Also I thought the resolution with the smiling young German boys completely undercut the very moment of character building not 20 minutes earlier when she realized that cutting the head off the snake doesn't immediately solve everything and that some people just have different perspectives (or genuine darkness in their hearts) that can't be magically changed or healed.
    also, this was really fucking weird

    the nazis are good now?

  22. #72

  23. #73
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    Yes but the loss of WWI was the foundation that Hitler's political career was built on. It was kinda funny that the movie portrayed it as a "yay we've learned our lesson now!" knowing that in real life those guys would be bitter and form the Nazi party just a few years later.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  24. #74
    Sunrise, Sunset Wryan's Avatar
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    If we don't get a Wonder Woman/Iron Sky crossover then what is the fucking point of life.
    "How is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home wine-making course and forgot how to drive?"

    --Homer

  25. #75
    Scott of the Antarctic Milky Joe's Avatar
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    Baffled by the hype for this... it's just another average superhero movie, barely competent at best. I have to assume it's a political thing, or just the novelty of it being about WOMEN, even though it's kinda actually not.

    "Wonder Woman... more like Wonder STEVE." - my gf

    They really should have given him a better name to at least sort of differentiate him from Captain America. I think favorite part was David Thewlis and that's mostly because of how his role here dovetails with Fargo.
    ‎The severed arm perfectly acquitted itself, because of the simplicity of its wishes and its total lack of doubt.

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