Alien: Covenant (Ridley Scott)

[transmogrifier]

I feel like I'm in Spinal Tap with some of these recent explanations for why movies tank:

I for one don't think the problem was that Prometheus was offbeat and alien-free, I think the problem may have been that it was a dumb and ill-conceived B-movie.

That's a bingo.

[Ezee E]

Kinda surprised this is at 100%

[Dead & Messed Up]

Kinda surprised this is at 100%

I haven't seen it yet, and I still have an Engineer-sized chip on my shoulder.

[transmogrifier]

I haven't seen it yet, and I still have an Engineer-sized chip on my shoulder.

You should be happy with this, then.

[Dukefrukem]

Kinda surprised this is at 100%

Irish definitely won't like it. Neither will Arya or D&MU.

[Irish]

I think the problem may have been that it was a dumb and ill-conceived B-movie.

"Dumb and ill conceived B-movie" could describe most of this franchise and a majority of Hollywood product. You'll have to be more specific than that.

[transmogrifier]

"Dumb and ill conceived B-movie" could describe most of this franchise and a majority of Hollywood product. You'll have to be more specific than that.

Not Dumb or Ill conceived: Alien, Aliens, Alien 3

Dumb and/or Ill conceived: Prometheus, Alien: Covenant

Dumb but not Ill conceived: Alien: Resurrection

They Don't Count: Alien vs. Predator 1 & 2

So scientifically you are wrong

[Dukefrukem]

Isn't Alien 3 the very definition of Ill Conceived?

Fox wanted to do a sequel but the producers didn't, the script was passed around like a dozen times. And the studio basically did whatever they want to get asses in the seat.

There was even supposed to be a 4th movie with Hicks and Newt.

One of the scripts had a 50 story size alien.

So yeh Ill Conceived and rushed.

Edit 37: There was even a script on Earth, with aliens and cornfields... which eventually turned into: Signs.

Edit 38: David Tuohy wrote a script that takes place on a space station prison without Ripley- where they were breeding xenomorphs and using the prisoners as hosts. This idea eventually becomes Alien Resurrection.

[Irish]

Not Dumb or Ill conceived: Alien, Aliens, Alien 3

Dumb and/or Ill conceived: Prometheus, Alien: Covenant

Dumb but not Ill conceived: Alien: Resurrection

They Don't Count: Alien vs. Predator 1 & 2

So scientifically you are wrong

Wait, what?

Why doesnt AvP and its sequel count?! Same producers as all the others.

(This is my quibble with the fandom around these movies -- out of 8, exactly 2 of them are "good." The rest are varying degrees of suck. Resident Evil, F13, and Michael Myers can almost beat that track record, FFS!)

ETA: one of my favorite quotes--David Cronenberg on "Alien," circa 1979:

"It has no metaphysics, no philosophy. The creature winds up as a man in a crocodile suit who chases a bunch of people around a room. I think that my own films do a lot more in touching a deep seated nerve, more than the simple reaction that you don’t want a crocodile to eat you. 'Alien' was just a $300,000 B-movie with a $10 million budget."

Is he wrong too?

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/20...ynch-on-alien/

ETA 2: "Alien" has the same problem as "Terminator." People still love one franchise and gave up on the other. Why?

[Ezee E]

Jealous quote there.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Jealous quote there.

Cronenberg's the same guy who was taking down comic books a few years after getting raves for his own comic book movie, A History of Violence. I love a lot of his work, but dude, chill.

[transmogrifier]

Isn't Alien 3 the very definition of Ill Conceived?

No, because the resulting product is remarkably tonally consistent and thematically resonant. Forget about the production history - that, like all movies ever, is totally irrelevant. To me, "ill conceived" means that the premise of the film that is eventually created just doesn't work; it has nothing to do with external matters.

[transmogrifier]

Is he wrong too?

Um, yes? We've had this conversation before about appealing to authority, and it didn't end well.

[transmogrifier]

Why doesnt AvP and its sequel count?!

Sure, because I haven't seen them.

[Irish]

Jealous quote there.

Potential jealousy doesn't make him wrong, though.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Well, I mean... I'd argue there is something sort of ill-conceived about a third Alien film in which Ripley is so frequently a passenger to her own story. You can justify it with the losses she's suffered, but no one compelling takes the wheel (somehow, they populated a space prison with the least interesting criminals in the universe), and the result is just this limping, sour death-trudge. Pretty to look at, though, and yes, there are interesting subcurrents.

[Irish]

Um, yes? We've had this conversation before about appealing to authority, and it didn't end well.

Yes -- mostly because you still don't understand what "appeal to authority" means. (In this case, if anyone has the chops to comment on the relative quality of "Alien," it's Cronenberg.)

I thought we were joking around and having a bit of fun. Am I reading this wrong or are you intentionally being a dick right now?

[Dukefrukem]

No, because the resulting product is remarkably tonally consistent and thematically resonant. Forget about the production history - that, like all movies ever, is totally irrelevant. To me, "ill conceived" means that the premise of the film that is eventually created just doesn't work; it has nothing to do with external matters.

So your definition of "ill conceived" is a definition that no one else on the planet uses. Got it.

[transmogrifier]

Well, I mean... I'd argue there is something sort of ill-conceived about a third Alien film in which Ripley is so frequently a passenger to her own story. You can justify it with the losses she's suffered, but no one compelling takes the wheel (somehow, they populated a space prison with the least interesting criminals in the universe), and the result is just this limping, sour death-trudge. Pretty to look at, though, and yes, there are interesting subcurrents.

It's not her story anymore. That's the main point of it.

They are the least interesting criminals because they are all religiously indoctrinated and chose to remain there as a result of that.

And the fact that it is a sour death trudge is what makes it brilliant. And I would argue Weaver, Dutton and Dance give the three best performances of the entire series here - with Fassbender the only real other contender.

[Irish]

Cronenberg's the same guy who was taking down comic books a few years after getting raves for his own comic book movie, A History of Violence. I love a lot of his work, but dude, chill.

I dunno -- semantics and all but there's a pretty wide gap between "A History of Violence" and something like "Man of Steel." Technically, "American Splendor" and "Ghostworld" could be considered 'comic book movies.'

If people are gonna quantify comics book movies as "anything based on a comic book" then why don't they do the same for movies based on articles, short stories, novels, etc? Because as categories, they're meaningless. Grouping films that way doesn't tell you anything about the work. Nobody ever talks about the top 10 best films based on a magazine piece, after all.

[Dead & Messed Up]

Yes -- mostly because you still don't understand what "appeal to authority" means. (In this case, if anyone has the chops to comment on the relative quality of "Alien," it's Cronenberg.)

I thought we were joking around and having a bit of fun. Am I reading this wrong or are you intentionally being a dick right now?

No, Irish, and you do this frequently, where you make these big statements or challenges with no meaningful suggestion of humor or "joking around" and then step back and act like we've all just been engaging in pleasurable thought experiments. It can get taxing.

[transmogrifier]

Yes -- mostly because you still don't understand what "appeal to authority" means. (In this case, if anyone has the chops to comment on the relative quality of "Alien," it's Cronenberg.)

I thought we were joking around and having a bit of fun. Am I reading this wrong or are you intentionally being a dick right now?

Yes, you are reading it wrong. At least you were, until now.

Some randomly selected stuff that you can find because the internet is like, right there:

We must keep in mind that for such an appeal to be justified, certain standards must be met:
1. The authority is an expert in the area of knowledge under consideration.
2. The statement of the authority concerns his or her area of mastery.
3. There is agreement among experts in the area of knowledge under consideration.

plus

Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.

plus

In particular, an appeal to authority is inappropriate if:
the person is not qualified to have an expert opinion on the subject, or
experts in the field disagree on this issue.

And so on.

Do I really need to find another filmmaker who says they like Alien? No, because it doesn't mean anything.

[Irish]

Do I really need to find another filmmaker who says they like Alien? No, because it doesn't mean anything.

Experts will always disagree. Your interpretation of what the fallacy means makes academic citation impossible under any circumstance. I said this last time. You still don't get it.

But hey, I got internets, too:

The valid form of argument is one in which a recognized and knowledgeable authority on the relevant subject is appealed to by citing a statement by that authority. This is a form of inductive reasoning in that the conclusion is not logically certain, but likely. Examples include following the treatments prescribed by a medical doctor, or citing a respected author to establish claims of fact in a written work.

Are we having fun yet? Because parsing useless shit off Wikipedia instead of discussing movies is so much goddamn fun.

[Dukefrukem]

We are having fun. And we're also still waiting for the first nay, even though this movie was ill conceived.

[megladon8]

Cronenberg's quote can be argued to be "correct", sure, but there's a smug air of condescension to it that's undeniable.

I mean, this quote bashing Alien's B-movie inclinations comes from a guy who, around the same time, made a movie about a woman who kills people with her armpit vagina.

Presence of philosophical undertones does not a better film make.

Alien may be a "$300,000 B movie" at its core, but it's so damn impeccably executed they the material is elevated.

Side note - I am actually a huge Cronenberg fan and love Rabid. I'm just pointing out how his condescending, reductive statements can be made about his own films too.