View Poll Results: Beauty and the Beast

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Thread: Beauty and the Beast (Bill Condon)

  1. #76
    Screenwriter TGM's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    I mean, you just compared a shot for shot remake of a foreign film to Hollywood film. This is a completely different medium. You would think the latter that would be more interesting no? Basically don't agree with anything you've posted here. You're arguments against BatB should remain in every other shot for shot remake you've ever seen (doesn't have anything new to say, no expression to share, only exists for a cash grab etc etc). I don't agree that Let Me In is soooooo radically different that it tells a completely different emotion. It doesn't. So stop that now.
    Bro, what? I honestly don't understand your rationale behind a single thing you said here. Why is it not fair to compare a remake from a foreign film to an American film? How are they different mediums? And how do the two versions in the example I provided not evoke different emotions? Have you seen the two versions? The differences that exist between the two are, in fact, pretty radical from one another, and as such have evoked radically different emotional responses, not just from me, but from most people who have shared their thoughts on the two films, from what I've seen.

    Also, have you never heard of the phrase "exception to the rule"? Because those, too, very much exist, and I merely provided an example as such, based on your request. Why are you being so belligerently antagonistic about my response? A movie isn't allowed to make me feel a certain way just because another example of a set of movies didn't evoke the same sorts of reactions? How the fuck can you even begin to rationalize that?

    As for the argument that my opinions on BatB should also apply to other remakes, it honestly doesn't even feel like you're even reading my posts. My issues with the movie have more to do with its execution than anything else. I didn't think it was well executed, and went fully in depth on those thoughts on the very first post in this thread. All of those thoughts pertain solely to BatB, and don't apply to any other movie but BatB. So, again, why should my thoughts on this being a poor remake apply to other movies that are shot-for-shot remakes?

    By your logic, you should never enjoy Let Me In or any other foreign to Hollywood adaptation. If that's how you feel fine. But don't be disingenuous.
    Again, what? I'm not being disingenuous. Quite the opposite, in fact. Most times I do feel that these sorts of remakes are unnecessary, and usually mention so as such. But on the rare occasion when the remake works, I acknowledge that as well. You asked me to provide an example of it, and I did. I'm sorry if you don't like my response, but I assure, it is not a disingenuous one.

    To answer your second question- Logan is NOT a fun movie to watch. It's bleek, depressing, unenjoyably, un-rewatchable. There's no payoff. I dont want my comicbook movies to be like this. Deadpool was funny and fun and still rated R. Logan is like the Road with Wolverine. It's lazy because they dumbed down the source material into a chase movie with a very very simple plot. Who knew that was all you need to do to satisfy fans? (remove most of the source material) But that was the way they could keep the budget low, in an R-rated format.
    I mean, if that's how you feel about the movie, fair, but I 100% disagree with your assessment of the film. I'm not gonna defend it here, as I've gone in length on my thoughts in the Logan thread, but yeah, again, not really seeing this, nor do I really see why you've dragged this movie into the discussion, other than to lament that the forum has all latched onto an almost universally liked movie and didn't think too kindly of the polarizing movie in question, which you just happened to like.

    It's okay to like movies that other people don't. I like shitloads of movies that lots of people don't. There's nothing wrong with that. But don't go accusing others of not being genuine with their thoughts just because they don't line up with yours. That's pretty disappointing to read, because I've been nothing but honest with you.

  2. #77
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    Bro, what? I honestly don't understand your rationale behind a single thing you said here. Why is it not fair to compare a remake from a foreign film to an American film? How are they different mediums? And how do the two versions in the example I provided not evoke different emotions? Have you seen the two versions? The differences that exist between the two are, in fact, pretty radical from one another, and as such have evoked radically different emotional responses, not just from me, but from most people who have shared their thoughts on the two films, from what I've seen.

    Also, have you never heard of the phrase "exception to the rule"? Because those, too, very much exist, and I merely provided an example as such, based on your request. Why are you being so belligerently antagonistic about my response? A movie isn't allowed to make me feel a certain way just because another example of a set of movies didn't evoke the same sorts of reactions? How the fuck can you even begin to rationalize that?

    As for the argument that my opinions on BatB should also apply to other remakes, it honestly doesn't even feel like you're even reading my posts. My issues with the movie have more to do with its execution than anything else. I didn't think it was well executed, and went fully in depth on those thoughts on the very first post in this thread. All of those thoughts pertain solely to BatB, and don't apply to any other movie but BatB. So, again, why should my thoughts on this being a poor remake apply to other movies that are shot-for-shot remakes?



    Again, what? I'm not being disingenuous. Quite the opposite, in fact. Most times I do feel that these sorts of remakes are unnecessary, and usually mention so as such. But on the rare occasion when the remake works, I acknowledge that as well. You asked me to provide an example of it, and I did. I'm sorry if you don't like my response, but I assure, it is not a disingenuous one.



    I mean, if that's how you feel about the movie, fair, but I 100% disagree with your assessment of the film. I'm not gonna defend it here, as I've gone in length on my thoughts in the Logan thread, but yeah, again, not really seeing this, nor do I really see why you've dragged this movie into the discussion, other than to lament that the forum has all latched onto an almost universally liked movie and didn't think too kindly of the polarizing movie in question, which you just happened to like.

    It's okay to like movies that other people don't. I like shitloads of movies that lots of people don't. There's nothing wrong with that. But don't go accusing others of not being genuine with their thoughts just because they don't line up with yours. That's pretty disappointing to read, because I've been nothing but honest with you.
    You misunderstand me from the get go here. I said THIS Beauty and the Beast movie is a completely different medium than the 1991 Cartoon. So I'll re-ask: You would think THIS adaptation would be more interesting than saaaaaaay: Let Me In / Let the Right one In. (and of course I've seen both movies. I wouldn't be using it as part of my argument if I didn't).

    I don't buy your "exception to the rule" which is why I'm challenging it. It was a Hollywood remake for a cash grab. It ended the same way. The scenes were setup the same. Same plot. No genius retelling of anything. Hire a cheap director to make us a couple of bucks. If it turns out good, it's a win win for everyone.

    So I assume you want to take back the "antagonistic" response line. Because I'm not being anything that resembles that.

    It's weird when one claims things about a movie, and talks about an exception of the rule even though that movie is setup the exact same way. "Oh well there's an exception to the rule because I like that movie". That's how it feels from my perspective. I'm trying to dissect your post and understand if this is what you're doing. Because it sounds like it.

    Speaking of your criticisms, I re-read your post and here's a summary of all the things you didn't like with the execution.

    Diverse cast for "sake of being diverse" (weird criticism)
    Luke Evans isn't big enough to play Gaston
    Songs were not as good as La La Land
    Movie title appears abruptly (weird criticism)
    There are scenes that fade to black (weird criticism)
    Scenes looked like cheap movie sets (but not cheaper than La La Land)
    Transformation back into Human wasn't cool enough
    Cartoon Beauty & and the Beast relationship wasn't as creepy
    Final point: technically not awful (i agree!)

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  3. #78
    The Pan
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    It seems as the years go by, we're increasingly just arguing about corporate strategy. The specific experiences of movies themselves are irrelevant. Shut Match Cut down. We're done here.

    JK.

    But people's tastes and opinions and reactions to films cannot be punched into a mathematical formula for predictable outcomes. F'real.

  4. #79
    It seems as the years go by, we're increasingly just arguing about corporate strategy. The specific experiences of movies themselves are irrelevant.
    That's true. I'm not sure whether the problem is us or the movies themselves.

    I mean, what personal reaction can one have to modern blockbusters outside their entertainment value? They purposely don't truck in deep emotion. It's like asking somebody to offer an artistic appraisal of a Vegas stage act or the Rockettes. Well, the show was fun or it wasn't. If it was, cool. If it wasn't, it doesn't matter because there's something else playing tomorrow night that might be.

    But people's tastes and opinions and reactions to films cannot be punched into a mathematical formula for predictable outcomes. F'real.
    That's true too.

    I find the recent back and forth interesting.

    TGM approached the movie like it was, more or less, any other movie and doesn't realize that Duke has a personal bond with these Disney properties. (Duke has seen "Lion King" on Broadway multiple times, IIRC. Which likely means that he has traveled for it. You're never gonna convince anybody with that much love that the object of their affection sucks.)

    Meanwhile, Duke is using personal love as some sort of qualifier. Everybody does this; it's tough to suss out what's "good" by any critical framework and what connects with you personally on a deeper level.

  5. #80
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Irish the MC shrink!

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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies

  6. #81
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Irish is 100% correct by the way. I've taken a step back right now and realized there is some kind of bond I have with these films. It even happened in Moana a little bit. It's something about combining passionate music with the characters that gets to me. Each character has a specific obstacle and story arch. I love that about Disney in general, but Lion King and BatB i have the strongest attachments.

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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies

  7. #82
    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Irish the MC shrink!
    lol, now there's a truly scary thought

  8. #83
    non-existent! Spinal's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I mean, what personal reaction can one have to modern blockbusters outside their entertainment value? They purposely don't truck in deep emotion. It's like asking somebody to offer an artistic appraisal of a Vegas stage act or the Rockettes. Well, the show was fun or it wasn't. If it was, cool. If it wasn't, it doesn't matter because there's something else playing tomorrow night that might be.
    I thought about this comment when I saw this headline:

    Robert Rodriguez to direct movie based on Uglydoll toys

    Not that Rodriguez has ever really been about deep emotion, but still, it feels relevant to this discussion.
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    The Fate of the Furious (Gray, 2017) **1/2

  9. #84
    Screenwriter TGM's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Irish is 100% correct by the way. I've taken a step back right now and realized there is some kind of bond I have with these films. It even happened in Moana a little bit. It's something about combining passionate music with the characters that gets to me. Each character has a specific obstacle and story arch. I love that about Disney in general, but Lion King and BatB i have the strongest attachments.
    Well hell, with the way this thread has developed, I don't know if it's even appropriate to respond to your last post to me and continue our discussion, or to just call it quits. (Thanks, Dr. Irish )

    If you're still interested, I can respond after I get home. But if not, that's cool. Anyways, I apologize for any misunderstanding, or if I became a bit heated as well. I can appreciate being passionate about a film or series to such a degree, and can understand your frustration with seeing it receive a relatively negative reaction. Different strokes for different folks and all, but again, that's cool. After all, hell, you pointed out a couple of movies I loved, and I similarly became annoyed at their negative reception here, so I can relate, lol.

  10. #85
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    After all, hell, you pointed out a couple of movies I loved, and I similarly became annoyed at their negative reception here, so I can relate, lol.
    I'm the opposite; I don't really care if people don't like movies I do. But I can't help but snipe when I don't like a movie that everyone else seems to love.
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  11. #86
    Stunt Man
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    Quote Quoting Sycophant (view post)
    It seems as the years go by, we're increasingly just arguing about corporate strategy. The specific experiences of movies themselves are irrelevant. Shut Match Cut down. We're done here.

    JK.

    But people's tastes and opinions and reactions to films cannot be punched into a mathematical formula for predictable outcomes. F'real.
    I love this comment. I mean I don't agree with Duke about this film at all but films perceived as 'corporate products' are getting to a point where it's nearing a one-size-fit-all opinion/review, which I am a bit troubled by.
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  12. #87
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    Well hell, with the way this thread has developed, I don't know if it's even appropriate to respond to your last post to me and continue our discussion, or to just call it quits. (Thanks, Dr. Irish )

    If you're still interested, I can respond after I get home. But if not, that's cool. Anyways, I apologize for any misunderstanding, or if I became a bit heated as well. I can appreciate being passionate about a film or series to such a degree, and can understand your frustration with seeing it receive a relatively negative reaction. Different strokes for different folks and all, but again, that's cool. After all, hell, you pointed out a couple of movies I loved, and I similarly became annoyed at their negative reception here, so I can relate, lol.
    It's all good TGM. No need to apologize. I clearly have some strong biased opinions here. Can't wait until the discussions of Favreau's Lion King starts.

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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
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  13. #88
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    I have to admit that the "diverse for the sake of being diverse" criticism is a bit of a head scratcher.
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  14. #89
    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    I thought about this comment when I saw this headline:

    Robert Rodriguez to direct movie based on Uglydoll toys

    Not that Rodriguez has ever really been about deep emotion, but still, it feels relevant to this discussion.
    Heh. Yeah. That's ... something else, that is. (OTOH, it's not entirely dissimilar to any other tentpole (read: all of them) that gets put into play because of merchandizing opportunities. To put it another way: If Laika Studios announced that project, nobody here would have a problem with it.)

    I'll blame Kael -- and no doubt regret this later -- but in addition to obvious targets I was also thinking about movies that were generally well received -- "The Lego Movie," "Mad Max: Fury Road," and "John Wick." All of them entertaining, all of them successful (however we might want to measure that) -- and all of them totally empty.

    Because, man, I can't get her 1981 review of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" out of my head, the one that starts with a long screed about how corporate conglomerates and Hollywood money-men are changing the movie business for the worse. She takes "Raiders" apart piece by piece and no matter how much I enjoy that movie, I find myself agreeing with everything she said. (She also does something similar, and just as brutal, to "Star Wars" and "The Road Warrior.")

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1981/06/15/whipped

    It struck me that you could take her same measure and apply it to a lot of these movies we talk about, and sometimes praise. Films that are more thoughtless, frantic entertainments with big audience appeal and little else.

  15. #90
    non-existent! Spinal's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I'll blame Kael -- and no doubt regret this later -- but in addition to obvious targets I was also thinking about movies that were generally well received -- "The Lego Movie," "Mad Max: Fury Road," and "John Wick." All of them entertaining, all of them successful (however we might want to measure that) -- and all of them totally empty.
    I went back to see what I said after seeing Fury Road because I had the same feeling at the time, even though I rated it highly:

    [
    ]
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  16. #91
    non-existent! Spinal's Avatar
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    Someone much more eloquent than me (I think it was Ariel Dorfman) said that the tragedy of Fantasia is that children will forever associate the Disney images with the music and not be able to have their own experience of the music divorced from that. I find myself feeling similarly about how Disney has begun to not just tell stories, but to assert authority and ownership over them by remaking them with the same design elements largely, marketing the hell out of them and imprinting them on our minds. Many of these stories are our most basic fairy tales, the ways in which humans have crafted lessons about morality for years. So when one giant entity makes more off of a remake in 3 days than the entire budget of the National Endowment of the Arts (currently under threat of termination), then the question of a particular film’s quality becomes mostly irrelevant to me. I saw The Jungle Book. I though it was pretty good. But the increased monopoly on storytelling at the expense of diverse voices is highly troubling. Diverse casting is welcome. And oh my gosh, didn’t we all hear a lot about how progressive that ‘gay moment’ is? But it’s really hard to see this direction as a positive one for artistic expression.
    The Big Sick (Showalter, 2017) ****
    Baby Driver (Wright, 2017) ***
    King Arthur: Legend of the Sword (Ritchie, 2017) **
    My Entire High School Sinking Into the Sea (Shaw, 2016) ***
    Wonder Woman (Jenkins, 2017) ***1/2
    Kedi (Torun, 2016) **
    The Lure (Smoczynska, 2015) ****
    The Purge (DeMonaco, 2013) **
    Colossal (Vigalondo, 2016) **1/2
    The Fate of the Furious (Gray, 2017) **1/2

  17. #92
    Ok, S., that's the post I shoulda repped. Great stuff. Largely agree.

  18. #93
    walks with the dead. Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    Someone much more eloquent than me (I think it was Ariel Dorfman) said that the tragedy of Fantasia is that children will forever associate the Disney images with the music and not be able to have their own experience of the music divorced from that. I find myself feeling similarly about how Disney has begun to not just tell stories, but to assert authority and ownership over them by remaking them with the same design elements largely, marketing the hell out of them and imprinting them on our minds. Many of these stories are our most basic fairy tales, the ways in which humans have crafted lessons about morality for years. So when one giant entity makes more off of a remake in 3 days than the entire budget of the National Endowment of the Arts (currently under threat of termination), then the question of a particular film’s quality becomes mostly irrelevant to me. I saw The Jungle Book. I though it was pretty good. But the increased monopoly on storytelling at the expense of diverse voices is highly troubling. Diverse casting is welcome. And oh my gosh, didn’t we all hear a lot about how progressive that ‘gay moment’ is? But it’s really hard to see this direction as a positive one for artistic expression.
    That line on Fantasia has bummed me out recently. I've heard it twice recently, and the one animated film I've always felt a real kinship and love for was Fantasia. It gave a boost to my love of subjects like space, evolution, dinosaurs, mythology, the macabre, and classical music at a young age. The dilemma makes sense (like a less obscene version of hearing your favorite rock tracks in fan-made Naruto music videos on YouTube - that shit is horrifying), but I have to think that if kids have sufficient imagination, they'll be able to reconsider new context for the music as they grow older. I'm not still thinking of topless centaurs when I hear the Pastoral Symphony.

    For me, the difference is that Fantasia never felt cynical - like a project made first and foremost to clamp down on public licenses and declare, "Mine now." It felt like a project sincerely invigorated by the possibilities of its concept.

  19. #94
    non-existent! Spinal's Avatar
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    Yes! Good points and I agree with your distinction.
    The Big Sick (Showalter, 2017) ****
    Baby Driver (Wright, 2017) ***
    King Arthur: Legend of the Sword (Ritchie, 2017) **
    My Entire High School Sinking Into the Sea (Shaw, 2016) ***
    Wonder Woman (Jenkins, 2017) ***1/2
    Kedi (Torun, 2016) **
    The Lure (Smoczynska, 2015) ****
    The Purge (DeMonaco, 2013) **
    Colossal (Vigalondo, 2016) **1/2
    The Fate of the Furious (Gray, 2017) **1/2

  20. #95
    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    I went back to see what I said after seeing Fury Road because I had the same feeling at the time, even though I rated it highly
    If I had to choose a movie as the most overrated of all time, Fury Road may well be it.
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  21. #96
    Stunt Man
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    I'm sorry, but this discussion really depresses me, especially all the claims of films being "empty" or "shallow". By all your metric, the film not being labeled so would have to be many Oscar-type films that put their "importance" and talking points and such up front and proper, and that cinema is mostly judged as message delivery. The Lego Movie and Fury Road, especially, have messages. Agree or not agree with them, think they are integrated well or not, it clearly has ones that I feel to not feel them there (and many other films that are not being regarded as 'high-brow') is being too influenced by their labels, genres, possibly obnoxious fans, the films' supposedly negative influence/effects on *gasp* Real Cinema, them being from Big Bad Evil Studios, and/or many outside factors rather than the films themselves. I know we can't discuss films without taking in their place in the industry, but lately, and especially in this thread, it feels like those last three factors have completely overtaken the actual films.
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    The Smiling Lieutenant (1931) - 8.5
    The Adventures of Robinhood (1938) - 8
    Sisters (1973) - 6.5
    Shin Godzilla (2016) - 7.5

  22. #97
    Seriously, pick any film ever made, and you can identify a message in it. The discussion about shallowness or emptiness is not negated by simply saying a message exists - it is the particulars of that message and how it interacts with with the other elements of the film that dictates whether there is any substance to the film outside of its surface pleasures. Of course, often the surface pleasures are more than enough (Hot Rod ftw!) but should something like Fury Road not grab you in that department to the extent that it did others, then it is natural to look at what else it has to offer - or not, as the case may be. I don't think it has anything to do with external influences at all, or the idea that we are biased against certain types of cinema, or their role in the industry.
    Last 10 Movies Seen
    Manchester by the Sea (2016) 72
    Arrival
    (2016) 63
    /Se7en (1995) 95
    /Dredd (2012) 58
    /This is the End
    (2014) 74
    /The Blair Witch Project
    (1999) 38
    Juvenile Offender (2012) 42
    /Green Room (2016) 70
    The Interview
    (2014) 56
    The Big Sky (1952) 64


    Stuff at Letterboxd


  23. #98

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