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Thread: Beauty and the Beast (Bill Condon)

  1. #1
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    Beauty and the Beast (Bill Condon)

    BEAUTY AND THE BEAST

    Director: Bill Condon

    imdb

  2. #2
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    So I don't necessarily think Beauty and the Beast was a bad movie per se. At least, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as the other live action remakes thus far. However, I also don't really have a single kind word to say about it, either, so...

    One of the things that stood out most to me is just how insincere this movie felt. It features a pretty diverse cast, and yet it almost comes across as if it's diverse solely for the sake of being diverse, and not actually diverse in a way that feels genuine and organic. It sorta reminded me of that conversation we had on here a while back (I forget which thread), where Irish was pointing out this false bravado in purposefully diversifying films just to say that they did so, even if it doesn't actually fit the film in question for whatever reason. That's the feeling I got throughout here, and it just felt like the cinematic equivalent of patting yourself on the back, and came across as borderline masturbatory, which really left a sour taste in my mouth.

    That said, they did indeed go all the way with making LeFou gay, and I gotta say, it totally served the character, and was one of the few new things this movie did that actually worked out really well.

    As for Gaston, Luke Evans was fine, though there came a point in his song that just didn't ring the least bit true with him in this role, when we get to the part where he's singing about how many dozens of eggs he ate to become as big as he is. Except, Luke Evans honestly isn't all that big a dude. Hell, he doesn't even look the least bit bigger than any of his lackeys. They shoulda either changed the lyric, cast someone else, or have him really buff up for the role. But other than that snafu, he was fine, I felt.

    Speaking of the songs, I dunno, but I couldn't help but feel they all felt like cheap knockoffs, like a cover band performing classic tunes and adding just a hint of their own flare to it, but not enough to warrant a full release. Like, these versions will never match the originals, and they all just sound a bit off. But in addition to all of the classics from the original, there are a couple of obligatory "we want a Best Original Song Oscar" songs, one of which is sorta meh, though the other, sung by the Beast, is actually pretty decent, and probably the best song in the film. That all said, I did find it curious how, despite this film's increased runtime and inclusion of new songs, "Human Again" still somehow didn't make the cut even in this version of the movie.

    There's also a lot of very weird editing decisions all throughout. Like, right from the beginning, when they show the movie's title, it's like it just sorta appears, then very abruptly goes away, like they just really placed absolutely no emphasis on it at all and just wanted to rush right into the movie. I know that's a small thing, but it stood out in a way that doesn't in most films, and I just found it instantly jarring, and that's a feeling that would continue with a number of this movie's editing choices.

    Like, a number of scenes end with an awkward fade to black, as if they didn't really know a smooth way to transition to the next scene. And then their choice of final shot is especially bizarre. We see a shot where Belle and the Beast (in human form) are dancing with one another, surrounded by others who are also dancing. But then we abruptly cut away to the human forms of the Wardrobe and the Piano, as they finish singing their song, then just as abruptly cut to credits. I know, again, not a big thing, but something that still stood out as especially odd and jarring.

    And speaking of odd, I have no idea how this film looks and feels as cheap as it does, especially with Disney behind it. There's no way the budget was that low. And yet, this whole movie looks cheap as hell. The sets all look like cheap movie sets, and none of them look the least bit real or lived in at all. And the effects all just feel real lazy. We already were well acquainted with Mrs. Potts' painted on face from the trailers, but I didn't realize just how lazy Lumiere's design was, too. For the majority of the movie, he's literally just a tiny golden man, with legs and everything. This, despite the fact that, when he briefly becomes a full candle at the end, he looks nothing like that design throughout. Did they just not want to animate him hopping around? I dunno, but it was just very odd, and again, really jarring.

    And when all of the transformations back to their human forms does happen, my god is it done in the cheapest way imaginable. Hell, most of them happen off camera, as we cut to reaction shots of people witnessing the transformations happening off screen. Others, we'll see them in their inanimate object state, then as the camera begins to pan upwards, they're just suddenly human. Like, fucking wow, you couldn't afford to actually animate any of the transformations, or even do like they did in the original and have them, like, "whoosh" back into their human form? So lazy, and so cheap, you'd hardly know this was supposed to be a big budget movie.

    And Gaston's death similarly feels muted here. When he battled the Beast in the original, it felt like a scene straight out of the fiery pits of hell itself. But here, he just sorta falls and dies, just something that kinda happens, like, "oops", and then he's gone. Blink and you missed it. Again, what the hell? It's like they put as little effort into it as is humanly possible.

    But otherwise, outside of a handful of added scenes and those aforementioned new songs, this is indeed about 90% a shot for shot remake of the original. Which isn't bad, necessarily, though I did find myself oftentimes just wishing I were watching that movie instead. They did include a handful of minor touches that do address a couple of small nitpicks that have been pointed out over the years from the original though, such as when Belle asks the Beast to stand up so she can help him back to the castle after the wolves attack him. So small little touches like that I liked throughout.

    One more thing that I noticed here was just how creepy the love story between Belle and the Beast actually feels, a feeling, mind you, that I never really got while watching the original. And I dunno if it's because that movie was a cartoon, and had a more fairy tale feel to it that worked more appropriately in that format or what, but here, yeah, all those arguments about Stockholm syndrome really stood out here in a way that never felt like a big deal in the animated version. I dunno, maybe it's because this was live action, just I constantly found myself asking, how creepy as hell would a similar story like this be if the Beast were just a human holding her captive and trying to woo her all the while. We don't ever really think that while watching the movie though, because it is what it is. But man, something about the way this version plays out just got my mind wandering there, and it gave me the creeps.

    But anyways, all in all, like I said before, though I don't really have anything nice to say about it, it's still technically not awful. I'd still probably say that this is the "best" of these live action Disney remakes, though that's both not really saying much, and yet says absolutely everything. Really, this little experiment of Disney's just really isn't working at all. Because thus far, all of these movies have sucked, and I'd really like it if they would just stop now before they fuck up any more than they already have. Just, please, stop.

  3. #3
    In the belly of a whale Henry Gale's Avatar
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    I have endless thoughts on this that I hope to go through later, but bottom line, the original is maybe the first favourite movie I ever had in my mind and I still hold it very dearly to this day, so I braced for the worst while still anticipating this for a long time, and there was a bunch of it I definitely did not like, but overall I still found it steering into the lane of somehow being a very emotional experience for me more often than not, even if the scenes that weirdly really hit me the hardest in the best way often preceded and followed ones I had serious issues with.

    Oddly my big (happy) takeaway with is that it's just a lovely tribute production to one of the better movies I've had the pleasure of having in my life, and being okay with seeing it celebrated in such a lavish way. It in no way replaces or tarnishes anything, so in a way that's a feat. Its story also goes a few different places I've wished the original did at times, but then it also invents new ideas it could have easily done without. It's like a band covering someone else's classic album in its entirely, but deciding to also add new songs and lyrics here and there, all while having some of the original members playing and writing with them as well.

    It's an odd thing, maybe not even a very good thing, but I certainly did not hate it.
    Last edited by Henry Gale; 03-17-2017 at 04:44 AM.
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    Speed Racer (Wachowski/Wachowski, 2008)
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    Bad Trip (Sakurai, 2020)
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  4. #4
    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    I thought Cinderella and The Jungle Book were... I dunno, decent? Fine? Unobjectionable? I think the Marvel method of just-enough is seeping into everything Disney does, from Beauty and the Beast to the new Star Wars films. Call it the Great Cinematic Hamburgering.

  5. #5
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    Honestly, if it weren't for The Jungle Book's identity crisis of not being able to decide if it wants to be a musical or not, I'd probably be fine with it, and think it's the best of the lot. But alas, that element just absolutely bugs the shit out of me, and sorta ruins the whole thing for me, which is a shame, because otherwise, it's definitely the most impressive visually (those effects are fucking flawless).

    If we're including Malecifent, I still probably appreciate it the most for being the only one to actually attempt something of a different take from its source material, but it still doesn't entirely work, sadly.

    I thought Cinderella was a miserable experience, though.

  6. #6
    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    Honestly, if it weren't for The Jungle Book's identity crisis of not being able to decide if it wants to be a musical or not, I'd probably be fine with it, and think it's the best of the lot. But alas, that element just absolutely bugs the shit out of me, and sorta ruins the whole thing for me, which is a shame, because otherwise, it's definitely the most impressive visually (those effects are fucking flawless).
    Oh, yeah, the film's effects are jaw-dropping. That's funny you bring up "identity crisis," 'cause I spent most of the movie looking forward to the bittersweet ending where Mowgli would return to men and leave the jungle behind, which was one of the highlights of the original film. And I have no earthly idea why they ditched that (I'd have to rewatch to see if the film builds up to that subversion in any meaningful way).

    I'd agree about the musical element, but that wasn't as crucial an issue for me, maybe because the promo material had already adjusted expectations.

    Either way, I've been leery of this remake for a good long while now. One thing they really highlight is how much more expressive hand-drawn animation is than photorealism.

  7. #7
    Kung Fu Hippie Watashi's Avatar
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    It's a shame so few people saw Pete's Dragon. That film is magic. Give all the Disney remakes to David Lowery.
    Sure why not?

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  8. #8
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    If we're counting Pete's Dragon (I wasn't cause, while a remake, it's not a remake of one of their animated films) then yeah, that one is by far the best, and really the only actual good one of the lot.

  9. #9
    Quote Quoting Dead & Messed Up (view post)
    I thought Cinderella and The Jungle Book were... I dunno, decent? Fine? Unobjectionable? I think the Marvel method of just-enough is seeping into everything Disney does, from Beauty and the Beast to the new Star Wars films. Call it the Great Cinematic Hamburgering.
    That's because there is absolutely no artistic impulse behind the making of any of these films; no film-maker who has passionately advocated a unique take on a timeless tale. It's a studio head running a rule over old properties trying to refresh the brand for monetary gain and then hiring a bunch of work-for-hire journeymen behind the camera looking to either (a) get another paycheck and/or (b) get enough cred to be hired for bigger budgets (and bigger pay days) further down the line.

    Credit to Marvel for trying to harness a couple of more unique directorial talents (Black, Waititi, Gunn), but even they are enslaved by the turgid, clumsy, utterly inconsequential "larger picture".

    AND: These films are embraced by the critical community, more or less. You look at RT, most of these films are comfortably in the red, with critics accepting technical competence, geekdom-massaging callbacks and sneak previews, and/or blatant pandering nostalgia.
    Last edited by transmogrifier; 03-17-2017 at 08:40 AM.
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  10. #10
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    This was perfect.
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  11. #11
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    I cried at the end.

    Not sure I could ever see Lion King in theaters. I'll be a mess. This is what's missing with Disney original takes. Tragedy. There are zero stakes in new Disney IPs. Writers need to a grow a pair. The ending to this is a god damn nightmare. [
    ]

    PS- i bought both the original and this soundtrack after the movie. LOVED Emma Watson int this.
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  12. #12
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    That's because there is absolutely no artistic impulse behind the making of any of these films; no film-maker who has passionately advocated a unique take on a timeless tale. It's a studio head running a rule over old properties trying to refresh the brand for monetary gain and then hiring a bunch of work-for-hire journeymen behind the camera looking to either (a) get another paycheck and/or (b) get enough cred to be hired for bigger budgets (and bigger pay days) further down the line.

    Credit to Marvel for trying to harness a couple of more unique directorial talents (Black, Waititi, Gunn), but even they are enslaved by the turgid, clumsy, utterly inconsequential "larger picture".

    AND: These films are embraced by the critical community, more or less. You look at RT, most of these films are comfortably in the red, with critics accepting technical competence, geekdom-massaging callbacks and sneak previews, and/or blatant pandering nostalgia.
    Yes, exactly this. Describes these movies to a T.

  13. #13
    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    That's because there is absolutely no artistic impulse behind the making of any of these films; no film-maker who has passionately advocated a unique take on a timeless tale. It's a studio head running a rule over old properties trying to refresh the brand for monetary gain and then hiring a bunch of work-for-hire journeymen behind the camera looking to either (a) get another paycheck and/or (b) get enough cred to be hired for bigger budgets (and bigger pay days) further down the line.

    Credit to Marvel for trying to harness a couple of more unique directorial talents (Black, Waititi, Gunn), but even they are enslaved by the turgid, clumsy, utterly inconsequential "larger picture".

    AND: These films are embraced by the critical community, more or less. You look at RT, most of these films are comfortably in the red, with critics accepting technical competence, geekdom-massaging callbacks and sneak previews, and/or blatant pandering nostalgia.
    Do you want rep? This is how you get rep.

  14. #14
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    You get rep for stating things we already knew?

    1+1=2
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  15. #15
    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    You get rep for stating things we already knew?

    1+1=2
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dukefrukem again."

  16. #16
    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    You get rep for stating things we already knew?

    1+1=2
    Now, now.... jealousy will get you nowhere. I'll chuck you a couple of rep points and you go get yourself something nice.
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  17. #17
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    I did have one negative thing to say about this movie.

    They removed my favorite line from the opening song:

    "Marie! The baguettes! Hurry up." I prefer a line by line remake. There! I just invented a new Hollywood trend.
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  18. #18
    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    That's because there is absolutely no artistic impulse behind the making of any of these films; no film-maker who has passionately advocated a unique take on a timeless tale. It's a studio head running a rule over old properties trying to refresh the brand for monetary gain and then hiring a bunch of work-for-hire journeymen behind the camera looking to either (a) get another paycheck and/or (b) get enough cred to be hired for bigger budgets (and bigger pay days) further down the line.
    It's pretty clear that the M.O. of Disney (and others, but mostly Disney) is brand extension above all else. Competently made and carefully managed. Star Wars. Marvel. Disney Animated Canon. Pirates, they hope. The future looks awful tedious.

  19. #19
    Cinematographer Mal's Avatar
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    I almost hated this entirely... but... Gaston. He worked for me instantly and Luke Evans looked like he was enjoying the shit out of his role. Beast/Dan Stevens was also good as far as defining Beast in this film version. But otherwise this felt ugly, half-assed and bad bad bad. Emma Watson had no business playing Belle. She has two emotions - concerned and almost-but-not-really-a-smile look. The new songs, new story bits were garbage. Be Our Guest was terrible and I don't want to hear Emma Thompson sing again.

    Did I mention this was just utterly fug to look at? Kids will love this but they deserve better.

  20. #20
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    Sometimes the widespread 'corporate ruining filmz and the critics/we're doing nothing about it!!!' mindset gets a bit much, but I admit I had brief thoughts along that line during this, before I remember that Cinderella is the same kind of remake and I quite liked that one. Kenneth Branagh might be the key, as he remakes the general storyline and, most importantly, the feelings that the original animated film inspires with a few updates, without slavishly using it almost as storyboard.

    This film has some good updates as well -- Belle a fuller, more assertive character; her relationship with the Beast a bit more fleshed out; Gaston even more deliciously cartoonish than his animated counterpart, thanks to Luke Evans having a hoot; the servants feeling more like real characters, including their surprisngly affecting tranformation moment at the climax (almost Toy Story 3-ish in its 'mutual-acceptance-in-face-of-impending-doom' effectiveness, actually); etc. But otherwise following the original almost beat-by-beat without its own cinematic or visual imagination creates a weird, distracting disconnect, like watching a diluted version or a supplemental feature. And Condon directs this more like some stage adaptation which really makes the animation-based visual set-pieces feel lumbering and a bit dull at times (I liked "Be Our Guest" though, and especially *whisper* liked this version of the song better than the original).

    Now that I think about it, the key dresses in this and Cinderella provide a good summary in contrasting execution enough: Lily James' is different than the animation's but invokes the same wonder (maybe even more spectacular), while Watson's feels wholly like a diluted, blander version. And a diluted, almost step-by-step version of a film really has no business being half an hour longer. 5.5/10
    Last edited by Peng; 03-18-2017 at 02:38 PM.
    Midnight Run (1988) - 9
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  21. #21
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    [
    ]
    I loved this part! What's going on with Belle and Beast is executed same-old-same-old, but this change really caught me off guard, and is probably the emotional high point of the film (making the climax work better for me than it would have otherwise), as I maybe like them as characters better than the original version too (not sure if it's the voice works or execution). Really reminds me of how Baz Luhrmann has Juliet wake up just before Romeo dies, a really effective and (blasphemy?) better change as well.
    Midnight Run (1988) - 9
    The Smiling Lieutenant (1931) - 8.5
    The Adventures of Robinhood (1938) - 8
    Sisters (1973) - 6.5
    Shin Godzilla (2016) - 7.5

  22. #22
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Peng (view post)
    I loved this part! What's going on with Belle and Beast is executed same-old-same-old, but this change really caught me off guard, and is probably the emotional high point of the film (making the climax work better for me than it would have otherwise), as I maybe like them as characters better than the original version too (not sure if it's the voice works or execution). Really reminds me of how Baz Luhrmann has Juliet wake up just before Romeo dies, a really effective and (blasphemy?) better change as well.
    Oh absolutely. If my post suggested I hated it my bad. I basically meant it as a rant to how emotional I was during that scene.
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  23. #23
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    So where most times after watching a new movie, assuming it stays with me at all, I'll find myself reliving various scenes from it over and over in my head days after the fact. But in Beauty and the Beast's case, this is the odd example where recently watching the new movie has had me reliving various scenes from the original in my head over and over, while the new one goes all but completely forgotten. Honestly, the only thing this new version has accomplished is giving me a much greater appreciation for the original than I already had.

  24. #24
    The Pan Spinal's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Sycophant (view post)
    The future looks awful tedious.
    $170 million over the weekend. Sigh.
    Coming to America (Landis, 1988) **
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  25. #25
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    $170 million over the weekend. Sigh.
    I dont know why you guys are upset that these movies exist. There's plenty of room for other things.
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

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