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Thread: Game of Thrones (Season 7)

  1. #151
    Director bac0n's Avatar
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    I echo Duke's observation wondering about how a lake can be 50 feet deep a mere 10 feet from the shore. Sure, it's not impossible, but really? It all seems merely a device to allow Jaime to survive the battle to be reunited with Tyrion, deliver the news of Joffrey's killer to Cersei, or both. The Dothraki, you will recall from season 1, aren't exactly known for taking prisoners.

    I wouldn't be surprised if, next episode, during the post battle cleanup & burning of the bodies, an unarmored Jaime pulls himself onto shore and collapses, and right as a dothraki rider is closing in for the kill, Tyrion stops it, and voila, there's your reunion. His interactions with Dany, given that he killed her father, should be particularly interesting.
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  2. #152
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    In a scene with a fire-breathing dragon, is a mysteriously deep body of water really that big of a deal?
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  3. #153
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    In a scene with a fire-breathing dragon, is a mysteriously deep body of water really that big of a deal?
    Well, yeah, of course. Dragons exist in the world of Game of Thrones - that doesn't mean that geography or logic have to take a hike. What I mean is that dragons aren't a breach of logic, they are part of the world.

    Regardless, I have no problem with the depth of the lake. Jamie was pushed aside by a body in heavy armor. Besides, it would be impossible for him to get up even in a shallow pool of water. His fucking hand is made of gold.

  4. #154
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    Well, yeah, of course. Dragons exist in the world of Game of Thrones - that doesn't mean that geography or logic have to take a hike. What I mean is that dragons aren't a breach of logic, they are part of the world.
    But if the biodiversity can be different, why can't the geography be different? Why is one logical and the other not? Why couldn't I just as well say, "Deep lakes aren't a breach of logic, they are part of the world."
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  5. #155
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    The lake feels like a cheat because of the way the scene is shot and the way the space is depicted. The director uses the flat plane of the camera to pretend that peripheral vision doesn't exist.

    There's little indication that the lake is even there until the final shot. It's visible in the far background before the battle starts. Once the fighting begins, it's barely shown. If the space were more established, if we knew where everyone was in relation to the road and the lake and the mountains, then Jamie's heroic charge would seem more calculated. We'd guess the payoff and there'd be no suspense.

    The biodiversity angle is a reach. The show never indicates that the physical world of Westeros differs in fundamental ways from our own, aside from the obvious magical creatures. We might as well guess that it's an artificial lake and used as a reservoir for the nearby castle.

    Personally, I don't think it matters all that much. This particular technique --- transferring the camera's limitations to the characters -- is a pet peeve of mine. You can see it a lot in horror movies when the director wants to set up a jump scare. Spielberg used it in "Jurassic Park," too.

    But, I dunno, I was having too much fun during the final battle. The fucking dragon fire was something to see. Bronn on the turret was something to see. And Jaime's charge while Tyrion mumbled, "Flee, you idiot," was terrific. I liked the build-up and the payoff so I'm willing to cut the technique a little slack.
    Last edited by Irish; 08-08-2017 at 04:54 PM.

  6. #156
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    But if the biodiversity can be different, why can't the geography be different? Why is one logical and the other not? Why couldn't I just as well say, "Deep lakes aren't a breach of logic, they are part of the world."
    Well, what Irish says. There's never any indication that there's anything so different about the basic geographical features of Westeros. By contrast, dragons are talked about even before they appear and the audience knows they are real even if most characters don't believe in them.

    Quote Quoting Irish
    The lake feels like a cheat because of the way the scene is shot and the way the space is depicted. The director uses the flat plane of the camera to pretend that peripheral vision doesn't exist.
    What do you mean by this? I remember the lake being shown from Tyrion's point of view.

  7. #157
    Sunrise, Sunset Wryan's Avatar
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    The lake is also briefly depicted when we cut to Drogon flying over the water, causing the water trail beneath him, barreling down on the troops. Plus a second shot of the reverse: Jaime seeing the dragon coming up the...river?...or something like that. It's hazy and definitely sort of "betcha forgot that was there huh!?" and a bit silly that way. But I suppose he'd need to fall into the water to avoid being burned.

    Y'all are making me realize how much better it would have been if Bronn tackled Jaime off the horse and they both just fell face first into the mud, lying there army in arm. Fade to black.
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  8. #158
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    What do you mean by this? I remember the lake being shown from Tyrion's point of view.
    It's difficult because the way the scene is edited and blocked. We can definitely see the lake if we look for it and pay more attention to the terrain than the characters. But the director does a pretty good job obfuscating the space. Some shots suggest two armies meeting in the middle of a huge field. In others, we can see that the road clearly runs against the waterfront but in others, like when the dragon flies overhead and fries the Lannister army, the lake isn't visible at all. A lot of the shots are tighter than necessary, and we never see exactly how big the lake is in relation to the field next to it. The camera also switches perspective between people on the ground and Dany above, which further confuses things.

    ETA: What Wryan said about it, ie, "betcha forgot that was there huh!?"

    There's a coupla shots where it looks more like a river than a lake, especially during one of the dragon's approaches and Jaime's charge at the end.
    Last edited by Irish; 08-08-2017 at 05:22 PM.

  9. #159
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    Quote Quoting Wryan (view post)
    if Bronn tackled Jaime off the horse and they both just fell face first into the mud, lying there army in arm
    Sounds like I'm not the only one who's been shipping

  10. #160
    Director bac0n's Avatar
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    The point i was trying to make, is just that the whole damn thing looks like a setup.
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  11. #161
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    They should've had a shot of Jamie stone skipping across the surface of the lake and then only sinking near the middle.
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  12. #162
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    I'm trying to imagine what it's like to produce an episode of television where you coordinate multiple people on fire, horsemen firing arrows while standing on the back of their mounts, a guy getting blasted with a giant crossbow, timed explosions and numerous complicated dragon effects, and then have somebody complain because you made your lake too deep.
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  13. #163
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    A well-timed interview with the episode's director:

    What was the trickiest thing to pull off?

    All of it is difficult. The logistics of martialing all of those background performers, stunt people. Dealing with fire. The evolution of the battle as you move from an intact wagon train to various stages of attack, until finally you’re in a full field of fire — this horrific, Bosch-like like landscape at the end. Each one of those stages required a herculean effort from the art department to move things around, to adjust the landscape, the burned grass, the number of bodies and burn victims and things like that. There was a lot to track.

    And when you’re also dealing with a character that’s actually not there — and that’s Drogon — it’s very difficult. You’re dealing with eye lines and tennis balls, and trying to get 200 people to react appropriately to a horrific dragon, who’s just a guy with a long stick running around.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/a...vate-ryan.html

    (Sadly, he doesn't talk about the lake.)

  14. #164
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Personally, I don't think it matters all that much. This particular technique --- transferring the camera's limitations to the characters -- is a pet peeve of mine. You can see it a lot in horror movies when the director wants to set up a jump scare. Spielberg used it in "Jurassic Park," too.
    It's also something of a trademark of Sergio Leone. Characters appear surprisingly from the edge of the frame even if the scene is set in the middle of the desert and they should have been seen coming from miles away.

    I think it's like everything else - as long as it's well done it causes zero problems.
    Last edited by Grouchy; 08-08-2017 at 08:03 PM.

  15. #165
    Sunrise, Sunset Wryan's Avatar
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    That moment in Jurassic Park bothered me from the first viewing, tho. The T-Rex storms over the fence at ground level but a few minutes later the cars are pushed over a cliff principally right where they were? Da fuck?

    Also, check out this beautiful work from Bayard Wu:

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  16. #166
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    Quote Quoting Wryan (view post)
    That moment in Jurassic Park bothered me from the first viewing, tho. The T-Rex storms over the fence at ground level but a few minutes later the cars are pushed over a cliff principally right where they were? Da fuck?
    Fuck. I'm never going to not see that now.
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  17. #167
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    Dany quoting Jon Snow verbatim is a little weirder. Not sure if that's just meant to be dramatic irony or further hint that they're related.
    This one felt weird to me too, but more because that quote doesn't really fit these characters all that well. For starters, Jon's reluctance to bend the knee has nothing at all to do with pride. Secondly, Dany criticizing anyone else for pride is a bit rich considering we get at least one scene per season in which she gives a big speech proclaiming her own greatness to anyone within earshot. But most importantly, in this scenario Dany isn't Jon, she's Stannis, demanding fealty-or-else (which made Missandei's "We follow her because we choose too and she'd be totally cool if we decided to leave tomorrow" speech feel out of place to me). And the whole reason why Jon was able to succeed where Stannis failed in earning the allegiance of the Wildlings was because he came to their aid without demanding they give up their all of their freedom. Even now, when every one of the them literally owes their life to him, he treats them more as allies and equals than subjects.

    Regarding Bran and Littlefinger, maybe I'm alone here, but after six seasons spent watching Littlefinger smirking and scheming and causing massive amounts of pain and destruction with zero consequences, I found it awfully satisfying to see him basically shit his pants when Bran quoted his signature line (that he should have no way at all of knowing) back to him. I can't recall ever seeing him that rattled before, which is part of the reason why I think Littlefinger's story this season in meant to mirror Ned in King's Landing. This time Littlefinger is the one who's left an environment he's comfortable in, where he's able to wield a great deal of power, and has found himself in a world where the rules are different and he looks to be in over his head. The Northern lords have already messed with his plans by ignoring Jon's bastard status to name him KitN and are generally more concerned with surviving winter than political games; deception and bribery aren't likely to do much good against ice zombies; and on top of all that he now he has to deal with two more Stark siblings that he'd likely written off as dead, but in fact they're not only alive and in Winterfell, they both came back with fucking superpowers. The only person his usual bullshit is still working on is Robin Arryn, and even there he's vulnerable because Sansa knows that Littlefinger murdered his mother. The walls seem to be closing in on him and while I think he still has at least one major play left in him* I really don't think he's going to survive the season.

    *My guess: Jon does end up bending the knee to Dany (or possibly entering into a marriage alliance) and Littlefinger uses the resulting furor to try to convince Sansa to wrest control of the North away from him.
    Last edited by Ashley; 08-09-2017 at 04:29 PM.

  18. #168
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    Love those thoughts about Littlefinger. I hope Sansa or somebody else gets the equivalent of his "I warned you never to trust me" moment from Season 1.

    Regarding Daenaerys, Jon and Missandei: I think it's OK to have dialogue in which characters' perception of the situation differs from our perception of the situation. I think you're absolutely right to observe that Jon's refusal to bend the knee isn't about pride. But I don't think it's wrong for the writers to suggest Daenerys sees it that way. You're absolutely right that Missandei might be mistaken about her current reality and the extent of her leader's forgiveness. But I don't think it's wrong for the writers to suggest that's how the character perceives her relationship with the queen.
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  19. #169
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    The Missandei scene was absolutely meant to be ironic. That's why it ended with Davos smugly smirking and saying "Right."
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  20. #170
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    I apologize in advance

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  21. #171
    Thematically, I think a lot of signs point to Daenerys's path to the throne being inevitably doomed. Seems to be a concerted effort this season to frame her approach in a particular way, an approach that maybe isn't that far off from those of her enemies.
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  22. #172
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    By the way, what kind of reaction would you expect from Dany when it turns out that Jon Snow is also a Targaryen? Doesn't seem like one to just change her opinion and think he's as equally entitled to the throne.

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  23. #173
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    Quote Quoting Ezee E (view post)
    By the way, what kind of reaction would you expect from Dany when it turns out that Jon Snow is also a Targaryen? Doesn't seem like one to just change her opinion and think he's as equally entitled to the throne.
    He wouldn't be, though, right? He's not a direct descendant of the Mad King.

  24. #174
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    I say you put Dany and Jon on opposite sides of a field and let the dragons waddle over adorably to whichever they feel most drawn to. Best of three gets the throne. The loser is ceremonially eaten.
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  25. #175
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    It was always going to be settled with musical chairs. It's like you folks don't pay attention to the title of the show.
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    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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