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Thread: Game of Thrones (Season 7)

  1. #326
    По́мните Катю... Izzy Black's Avatar
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    Visually this season was impressive. Very high end production values and special effects. Those dragons looked fake and unconvincing in the early seasons, but everything is glorious now.

    I'm not a fan of the long drawn out Jon Snow parentage and lineage reveal. Never understood why people were so excited about this and so invested in the culture of speculation about it. For me, it undermines the show's whole narrative reversal in propping up the downtrodden and disadvantaged, where women, bastards, dwarves, and the disabled come out on top against the odds. Until now, blood rights were often revealed to be smoke and mirrors, recipes for vanity, self-destruction, and violence.

    The only saving grace in all this is that there may be a potential conflict once Dany figures out she isn't the chosen one destined to take the throne, but it's yet another able bodied man who has this birthright, and potentially more painfully, one she loves and respects. We'll see how it plays out, but given all the fan service this season where it looks like it's no longer Martin piloting the ship, I fear a tidy, happy ending where beautiful royals take their proper place and rule peacefully into the sunset, which would undermine seasons of catharsis denial and the show's deconstruction of the traditional monarch. In one season, the show has gone from one of the most ambitious approaches to high drama by pushing its narrative boundaries and conventions to one of the most safest and predictable. This goes without mentioning all the ridiculous and convenient plotting in the past couple of episodes, which thankfully, was less egregious here.

    Night King spearing dragon out of the sky remains one of the most stunning and jaw dropping moments in the entire series though. It's a case where predictablity doesn't undermine, but rather dovetails with menace, terror, and heartbreak. It fulfills a genuine sense of dread, and executed with poetry and stately grandeur. Simply remarkable.
    Last edited by Izzy Black; 08-29-2017 at 12:42 PM.

  2. #327
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting amberlita (view post)
    Watched the episode again and lingered a bit on the Jon/Dany boatsex scene (to *ahem* admire the uhhh.....musical score, and...cinematography) and of all the things from this episode what's vexing me the most is Tyrion's hallway creeping. Something was seriously up with him and I can't nail down what that might be. It's possible it's jealousy? Because I think Tyrion's in love with her (who isn't in love with Dany?) But wasn't he encouraging the match last episode? Why did he look downright angry when staring at that door and then mope off dejectedly? I'm just worried Cersei got to him somehow.
    Quote Quoting Izzy Black
    there may be a potential conflict once Dany figures out she isn't the chosen one destined to take the throne, but it's yet another able bodied man that has this birthright, and potentially more painfully, one she loves and respects

    This was discussed at my viewing party as well. I don't think it's jealousy but that he somehow suspects (without exactly knowing how) that this will complicate Dany's ascent to the throne in the way Izzy is talking about.

  3. #328
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    By the way, in one of the Arya/Sansa scenes (which, frankly, have been the dramatic highlight of the last episodes for me), the former mentions the Game of Faces, a child's game which consists of people who know each other telling lies combined with truths and see if the other person can tell them apart.

    She's explicitly referencing the relationship their scenes together have with the audience.

  4. #329
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    There's only two things I'm unsure of:

    - How Cersei will die
    Oh my. It's clear as water now. In the hands of Jaime.

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  5. #330
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    By the way, if the birth were to kill Cersei, it could technically still fulfill the prophecy.

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  6. #331
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Ezee E (view post)
    By the way, if the birth were to kill Cersei, it could technically still fulfill the prophecy.
    I'm still not convinced she's preggo.

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  7. #332
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    Quote Quoting DavidSeven (view post)
    I'll reserve judgment on the Jon/Dany stuff until it all plays out, especially after Jon's lineage is revealed to all, but if Jon and Dany ultimately succeed and live happily ever after together, not sure I can reconcile that with what the material tried to say about the deaths of Ned, Catelyn and Robb. For a while, the show seemed to get by without confronting Jon with the same type of choices that undid the rest of his family, but particularly in this last episode, it's not clear to me that Ned or Robb would've acted any differently, really. Heart over head, and all that.

    I got annoyed with a lot of Martin's plotting tendencies, but he certainly had a deft hand with this kind of stuff, which felt lacking this season.

    Edit: and honestly, Jon's idiotic scheme in "Beyond the Wall" and his actions in the finale really trump the subtle naivety that ultimately doomed Ned and Robb.
    The wight hunt wasn't Jon's idea, it was Tyrion's. Jon only went because the Wildlings wouldn't follow anyone else.

    As for the finale, I'm not sure he came out looking like the dumb one there, given that everyone was chastising him for not lying to Cersei but apparently don't even suspect that she might have done the same to them. And given that Cersei was planning on double crossing them all along, lying there would have gained him nothing other than a reputation as someone who can't be trusted.

    More importantly though, he wasn't wrong about what he said afterward. There's no point to having treaties and oaths if no one ever follows through with them, and if everyone constantly lies to everyone and words stop meaning anything then eventually you cease to have a functioning society. Which is why I still hate how the show completely minimized the fallout from the Red Wedding (which in the books was massive, far reaching, and still very much being felt two books later). The whole idea of Guest Right and the taboo around breaking it wasn't just some quaint idea that only honourable fools like the Starks believe in, it basically formed the whole foundation of diplomacy in Westeros, and throwing that out the window for one victory was a remarkably short-sighted, destructive decision that harmed the whole realm.

    And I get what you're saying about the deaths of the other Starks, but if we're talking about things that Martin handled differently, and better, then I would argue that he presents a much more nuanced view on leadership and ruling in general than the show, where the tendency to default to (IMO) shallow cynicism is my single biggest frustration with how they've chosen to adapt it. Yes, the beginning of the series is dedicated in large part to exploring how Ned Stark-style honour and honesty can be exploited in a medieval society while Tywin Lannister-style ruthlessness thrives, but the last two books are very much a re-examination of that dichotomy, exploring the benefits of the former and the drawbacks of the latter. Ned's devotion to honour and justice may have doomed him in King's Landing, but it also left behind a North that was almost fanatically loyal to him and his family, to the point where thousands are willing to march through winter storms to rescue his "daughter" and get revenge on the Boltons. Meanwhile, Tywin's scorched earth tactics may have gained him victories in the short term, but it also created a lot of enemies just waiting for the opportunity to pounce. Plus, his shit parenting and disdain for his own children left them with all sorts of psychological scarring and completely unprepared to take over when he was gone. The message I got from reading the books wasn't that having morals and principals and standing by them makes you weak or unfit to lead in this world (which I think is a far too common misinterpretation of the series), it's that leading is hard and there's not really any perfect way to do it (but operating at the extreme end on either side probably isn't the way to go). Unfortunately, some of the decisions the writers have made with the adaptation (the Northern Lords here are, as Sansa described, "weather vanes"; no one outside of the Starks gave a shit about the Red Wedding (not even the numerous other families that would have had to have lost members there); and Cersei has faced zero consequences for blowing up the holiest place in Westeros) have undermined that balance, which does kind of make statements like Jon's here, or Tyrion's a few episodes ago about how fear alone is a brittle foundation for ruling, feel out of place.

    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    Oh god, I hadn't even considered the baby potential. Ugh, makes me want to hurl.
    They mentioned her supposed infertility three times in the last two episodes, and the last incident had Jon explicitly point out that the information didn't exactly come from the most reliable of sources. I'd be shocked if it doesn't happen.
    Last edited by Ashley; 08-29-2017 at 03:36 PM.

  8. #333
    I am not your foot. Spinal's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Oh my. It's clear as water now. In the hands of Jaime.
    I'm back to thinking it's Arya, masked as Littlefinger.
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  9. #334
    - - - - - Irish's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting amberlita (view post)
    of all the things from this episode what's vexing me the most is Tyrion's hallway creeping. Something was seriously up with him and I can't nail down what that might be. It's possible it's jealousy? Because I think Tyrion's in love with her (who isn't in love with Dany?) But wasn't he encouraging the match last episode? Why did he look downright angry when staring at that door and then mope off dejectedly? I'm just worried Cersei got to him somehow.
    There's a fan theory that suggests Tyrion made a secret deal to put Cersei's kid on the throne after Dany's reign ends. He's worried because a baby Targy fucks up his plan.

  10. #335
    I am not your foot. Spinal's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    - Why so many of you hesitate to embrace two beautiful actors quietly humping on a boat
    I'm still trying to successfully articulate why I have such a negative reaction to this plot development because I understand the counterarguments: "They're Targaryens, it's what they do." "It's just a fantasy story, what's the big deal?" "All of Martin's 'heros' are flawed. Why should these two be any different?" These are all valid points and there's probably others to be made. I have never been a person who's objected to the show's gratuitous sexual content. For me, it's part of the fun. So why does this bother me so much?

    I think there's two main things that are sticking points for me:

    1. Even in a fantasy world with different notions of taboo, Jon and Daenerys have represented something approximating values we hold dear in our world. Honor, courage, liberty, blah blah blah. For me the Lannisters' incest was shorthand for their perverted sense of right and wrong. Yes, there were many reminders that the Targaryens have had this throughout their history. But there was also a sense that the heroes of this story were determined not to repeat the mistake of their fathers. We will see how the story plays out. But for me, it's troubling to have protagonists that are not just flawed, but tainted with such a strong societal taboo from the world in which I am watching the show. I mean, would we feel the same if Jon was boatsexing Arya right now? This discomfort I'm feeling now may eventually lead to interesting thematic questions. Right now, I'm not sure it adds much to the story for me.

    2. It feels cheap. Like the kind of 'shipping' fan fiction that any number of internet pervs would create. I guess I thought Martin was a higher class of perv. I am hoping that something is getting lost in the adaptation here and that I will have a greater appreciation if indeed the books go this way as well. But I am much more interested in seeing Jon and Daenerys grapple over their notions of leadership and justice than I am watching them in an ill-considered romantic fling. I mean, that's what Daario and Ygritte were for!
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  11. #336
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    I finally understood why I couldn't recall the prophecy of Cersei being killed by her younger brother. Because it was a book prophecy and not a show one.

    The "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds" line is there. But nothing about her death.


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  12. #337
    I am not your foot. Spinal's Avatar
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    Important distinction: the prophecy doesn't say Cersei's little brother. It says "the valonqar" which is High Valyrian for "little brother". This leaves a whole range of possibilities open that are not necessarily Jaime or Tyrion. There could be mistranslation or a play on words or metaphor or whatever else to fulfill the prophecy.
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  13. #338
    walks with the dead. Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Stupid literary prophecies.

    It's almost as though the authors purposefully make them vague enough to dupe the protags.

  14. #339
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    Important distinction: the prophecy doesn't say Cersei's little brother. It says "the valonqar" which is High Valyrian for "little brother". This leaves a whole range of possibilities open that are not necessarily Jaime or Tyrion. There could be mistranslation or a play on words or metaphor or whatever else to fulfill the prophecy.
    Regardless, the show doesn't even recognize it. So she could be killed by anyone.

    Here's hoping it's a dragon.

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  15. #340
    All animals can scream number8's Avatar
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    Hm, deja vu. Didn't we just have a whole conversation about prophecies in this thread and pointed that out specifically?

  16. #341
    I am not your foot. Spinal's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Regardless, the show doesn't even recognize it. So she could be killed by anyone.

    Here's hoping it's a dragon.
    It's true! I'm working off the assumption that it will be the same person, but that may be naive thinking.

    A dragon would be most satisfying. Although there would also be satisfaction in her having a completely inglorious death at the hands of a commoner or something.
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  17. #342
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    Hm, deja vu. Didn't we just have a whole conversation about prophecies in this thread and pointed that out specifically?
    Yup. I think I was up in my New Hampshire cabin and missed this discussion.

    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    Yeah, exactly (that's what happened with all the Baratheon kids staking their claim), but why I think it particularly matters to Dany is that her entire claim of being the rightful heir is based on correcting the throne's proper line of succession that was interrupted by Robert's Rebellion. So if she's gonna be a stickler for that bloodline malarkey, she has to acknowledge that her own standards would make Jon the rightful heir, not her. How she'll navigate that potential hypocrisy is what's going to be interesting.

    Oh man, you're right. Cersei's death has not been prophesied on the show at all.

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  18. #343
    По́мните Катю... Izzy Black's Avatar
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    I want Cersei to die of old age, alone, peacefully, Godfather 3 style, after she destroys all of her enemies and loved ones. But I know that'll never happen. A death at the hands of Jamie at least has some of the cynical poetry I want, but with Martin no longer at the narrative helm, I fear Jon and Dany swooping in on the back of a dragon frying her to ashes. Or some other Stark revenge fantasy way. I can't imagine anything worse. It would complete the upending of everything that made the show interesting from my POV.

  19. #344
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    I mean, would we feel the same if Jon was boatsexing Arya right now?
    Eh, that's a whole different can of worms. Arya and Jon are cousins, which basically makes it fair play even in our society (it might be icky to some but it's not illegal), but they were raised as half siblings on the same household. That's the most important distinction to me. Jon and Dany have no way of knowing they have any kind of relation at all... until S08E01.

    I don't know, man. The thing that is universally condemnable is sexual and psychological abuse. The rest depends completely on the time and place.
    Last edited by Grouchy; 08-29-2017 at 07:53 PM.

  20. #345
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Izzy Black (view post)
    I want Cersei to die of old age, alone, peacefully, Godfather 3 style, after she destroys all of her enemies and loved ones.
    I like the way you think.

  21. #346
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    Are we sure GRRM has no part in the ending? I imagine he would have given them a few plot points and some characters' endgames, even though the progression to there would be vastly different. Or is there interview that it will be wholly D&D?
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  22. #347
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Peng (view post)
    Are we sure GRRM has no part in the ending? I imagine he would have given them a few plot points and some characters' endgames, even though the progression to there would be vastly different. Or is there interview that it will be wholly D&D?
    From how I understood it, GRRM gave a soft outline of what was to happen.

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  24. #349
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Started the reading the first book. It's good.

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  25. #350
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    I drove down to Austin back in the spring (18.5 hours from Minneapolis to Austin MN TX, in case anyone is curious) and listened to it on the way down and up. Yes, it is a great book, and they did a fantastic job on the audiobook, too.
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