Game of Thrones (Season 7)

[DavidSeven]

The thing with Littlefinger just felt too tidy in a way. Not enough build-up, in either a dramatic or cinematic way, to offing a character who has been so central to much of the show's conflict. Maybe it's just that the use of Bran as a huge shortcut feels like a drama-sucking vacuum, but I think they could've done more from a technical and thematic standpoint as well. Ultimately, it felt a little lazy, and I sort of feel like GRRM might've infused more irony into his death or made it more thematically compelling somehow.

[Spinal]

So, Arya now has Littlefinger's face ...

If only there were someone important on her list that might see value in talking to Littlefinger.

[Lazlo]

Yeah, the Littlefinger plotline was sloppy and cheap. It was all done to engender suspense in the audience rather than to do justice to the characters. Why would Sansa and Arya have all these contentious conversations in private, away from Littlefinger, if they were working together?

[Spinal]

I hate the term 'Cleganebowl'.

[Irish]

This is now a show about #boatsex and dragonfire. A character like Baelish has no place.

[Wryan]

Why would Sansa and Arya have all these contentious conversations in private, away from Littlefinger, if they were working together?

Cause they knew he or his spies were probably listening almost everywhere.

[Lazlo]

Cause they knew he or his spies were probably listening almost everywhere.

*footage not found*

Didn't seem to me that Littlefinger knew much beyond what Sansa told him about the situation. Yeah, he knew that Arya had the note, but I don't recall him having any other independently gained information.

[amberlita]

Yeah, the Littlefinger plotline was sloppy and cheap. It was all done to engender suspense in the audience rather than to do justice to the characters. Why would Sansa and Arya have all these contentious conversations in private, away from Littlefinger, if they were working together?

Manipulative writing. Watch the Behind the Episode. They basically admit that they manufactured these scenes to build tension and fake out the audience (which on the one hand, kudos I was fooled and enjoyed that moment a lot; on the other hand, what a bunch of cheaters).

[Grouchy]

This season was my least favorite by a pretty wide margin. I'm very disappointed that the Jon-Daenerys thing actually happened. It's not fun or sexy or anything that's helpful to the story. It's off-putting and will probably keep this from being a series that I re-watch as I have in the past.

Why?

[number8]

Manipulative writing. Watch the Behind the Episode. They basically admit that they manufactured these scenes to build tension and fake out the audience (which on the one hand, kudos I was fooled and enjoyed that moment a lot; on the other hand, what a bunch of cheaters).

I saw that. Benioff straight up said that because they've actually killed important characters in past seasons (cue clips of Red Wedding), they felt that the fans would believe that they're actually killing Arya, so they can exploit that good will to pull off a cool twist.

Kinda weird that they think a twist involving a character betrayal is comparable to a twist involving engineered red herrings.

[Spinal]

Why?

In my mind, those two characters meant more than that. When Jon said, "There's no time for that," I agreed with him. I wish they had left it at that. I wanted them to bond over a shared sense of purpose. Not sexual attraction. I will now never be able to think of this show without thinking of the hero as the guy who fucked his aunt and liked it. Clearly it worked for others. Not for me.

[Irish]

The problem with Benioff's assumption is that they've already killed off too many characters. There simply aren't enough people left to keep killing them and sustain the base story. (This is part of the reason why, I think, Theon's quest to rescue his sister and Baelish's shenanigans seem so forced.)

The scene in the dragon pit would have been tense 2-3 seasons ago, but watching it I knew nothing was gonna happen to anybody. Same feeling when Tyrion met with Cersei. It was obvious they're not gonna off major characters and fan favorites this late in the series. (The Mayor of Baltimore notwithstanding.)

[Grouchy]

In my mind, those two characters meant more than that. When Jon said, "There's no time for that," I agreed with him. I wish they had left it at that. I wanted them to bond over a shared sense of purpose. Not sexual attraction. I will now never be able to think of this show without thinking of the hero as the guy who fucked his aunt and liked it. Clearly it worked for others. Not for me.

Ok. I was just curious if it was because of the incest. I actually like Jonerys, I think the actors sell it well (specially Emilia, agreed with whoever said that her acting has improved the most out of all the major players), they have chemistry and it's fitting for their arcs. At the start of the series, a virgin Jon was prepping up for a life of celibacy and a virgin Daenerys was being forcibly wed to a savage who frightened her. It's not like finding true love in unexpected places is unrelated to their character arcs.

There are two hints in this episode that the romance will complicate things. The first is Bran's discovery and narration that Robert's rebellion was built on a lie and that Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love and that their love started the war. The second is Tyrion's concerned look.

I agree that the show's writing hasn't been nearly as strong since they surpassed the source material. But it's not as bad as some people are saying.

[Dukefrukem]

The problem with Benioff's assumption is that they've already killed off too many characters. There simply aren't enough people left to keep killing them and sustain the base story. (This is part of the reason why, I think, Theon's quest to rescue his sister and Baelish's shenanigans seem so forced.)

The scene in the dragon pit would have been tense 2-3 seasons ago, but watching it I knew nothing was gonna happen to anybody. Same feeling when Tyrion met with Cersei. It was obvious they're not gonna off major characters and fan favorites this late in the series. (The Mayor of Baltimore notwithstanding.)

Disagree. The entire dragon pit scene was tense for me. Every fathom of it.

[Grouchy]

Disagree. The entire dragon pit scene was tense for me. Every fathom of it.

Yeah, same here. I didn't expect anyone to die during the scene but it was still tense.

I did think for a moment that Jaime was gonna bite the dust in the scene afterwards with the Mountain.

[Irish]

Disagree. The entire dragon pit scene was tense for me. Every fathom of it.

How so? What's left to surprise, without the potential for betrayal or violence? If Cersei says no, not gonna help, Jon and Dany aren't worse off than they were before. If she says yes, so much the better. There was no downside for them and because of that there was no tension.

The only interesting fallout from that scene is that Jaime went against his sister. (I don't know exactly what that will mean, because it's never been clear if people like Jaime have their own land, holdings, income, and armies outside their families. At the moment, I assume he's just gonna ride off alone somewhere.)

[Irish]

Manipulative writing. Watch the Behind the Episode. They basically admit that they manufactured these scenes to build tension and fake out the audience (which on the one hand, kudos I was fooled and enjoyed that moment a lot; on the other hand, what a bunch of cheaters).

Can we really complain about such manipulation after the show pulled a bait and switch with Jon Snow's "death"? With that, they announced that they weren't gonna play fair and then rubbed the audience's face in it. (They had done similar things before, but not as badly as they did with that storyline.)

So, yeah, the Baelish thing was manipulative -- and I'm teasing a bit when I say this -- but what did you expect outta these guys?

[Dukefrukem]

How so? What's left to surprise, without the potential for betrayal or violence? If Cersei says no, not gonna help, Jon and Dany aren't worse off than they were before. If she says yes, so much the better. There was no downside for them and because of that there was no tension.

The only interesting fallout from that scene is that Jaime went against his sister. (I don't know exactly what that will mean, because it's never been clear if people like Jaime have their own land, holdings, income, and armies outside their families. At the moment, I assume he's just gonna ride off alone somewhere.)

I was talking about the scene it'self. Not the aftermath or outcomes from it.

The Hound walking up to the Mountain was tense.
Cersei sitting down at the throne was tense.
Danny's late arrival was tense.
The reveal of the whitewalker was tense.
Greyjoy speaking out of turn was tense.
It was tense.

[Irish]

I was talking about the scene it'self. Not the aftermath or outcomes from it.

The Hound walking up to the Mountain was tense.
Cersei sitting down at the throne was tense.
Danny's late arrival was tense.
The reveal of the whitewalker was tense.
Greyjoy speaking out of turn was tense.
It was tense.

Yeah, so was I. I'm asking how was any of that was tense? I'm talking from the viewpoint that, going in, you know that nobody is going to die or be betrayed or say anything surprising.

ETA: One part of my issue with that scene is that I didn't buy into anything anybody said, or how they said it. It didn't seem plausible that Eujon or whatever his name is would taunt Theon right off the bat, or that Cersei would be so shortsighted as to taunt Danyrs on a first meeting. Tyrion's recap speech didn't help, and the whole "Gee, Jon, I wish you hadn't been honest" convo didn't seem plausible either.

Another part is these characters no longer seem like they're thinking and acting as part of a larger backdrop. The show's become much more episodic and events seem shorter, less consequential, more linear, and more self-contained. It's like they've all lost the ability to plan beyond next week's episode.

[DavidSeven]

I'll reserve judgment on the Jon/Dany stuff until it all plays out, especially after Jon's lineage is revealed to all, but if Jon and Dany ultimately succeed and live happily ever after together, not sure I can reconcile that with what the material tried to say about the deaths of Ned, Catelyn and Robb. For a while, the show seemed to get by without confronting Jon with the same type of choices that undid the rest of his family, but particularly in this last episode, it's not clear to me that Ned or Robb would've acted any differently, really. Heart over head, and all that.

I got annoyed with a lot of Martin's plotting tendencies, but he certainly had a deft hand with this kind of stuff, which felt lacking this season.

Edit: and honestly, Jon's idiotic scheme in "Beyond the Wall" and his actions in the finale really trump the subtle naivety that ultimately doomed Ned and Robb.

[Ashley]

I went into the season honestly dreading the idea of Jon/Dany, but I dunno, they kind of sold me on it by the end. Not as an endgame couple, which still seems far too neat for me, but I buy them falling for each other for now at least. To be honest though, the way their hookup played out actually made it seem less likely to me that they're meant to last. They didn't really get a proper love scene -- even Missandei and Grey Worm got a better one -- and we didn't even get to see their first kiss. Instead, their sex scene was included as part of a montage that included references to their both their blood relationship and a doomed romance in Rhaegar and Lyanna, neither of which screams epic, long-lasting love story to me. Plus, I've personally thought for ages now that at least one of them isn't making it out of the show alive.

The only thing I am convinced of is that Cersei isn't going to be the only character pregnant next season, which I guess would put Jon in the uncomfortable position of having to choose between going full Targaryan and marrying his aunt or letting his own child be born a bastard.

[Spinal]

Can we really complain about such manipulation after the show pulled a bait and switch with Jon Snow's "death"? With that, they announced that they weren't gonna play fair and then rubbed the audience's face in it. (They had done similar things before, but not as badly as they did with that storyline.)

Nothing about that was a cheat though. It was standard hero's journey death and rebirth, foreshadowed by the Beric Dondarrion storyline. We knew it was possible within the world. We knew Melisandre and Thoros of Myr shared the same god. We knew that magic is stronger closer to the Wall. We had plenty of preparation for that moment.

[Spinal]

The only thing I am convinced of is that Cersei isn't going to be the only character pregnant next season, which I guess would put Jon in the uncomfortable position of having to choose between going full Targaryan and marrying his aunt or letting his own child be born a bastard.

Oh god, I hadn't even considered the baby potential. Ugh, makes me want to hurl.

[Irish]

I went into the season honestly dreading the idea of Jon/Dany, but I dunno, they kind of sold me on it by the end. Not as an endgame couple, which still seems far too neat for me, but I buy them falling for each other for now at least. To be honest though, the way their hookup played out actually made it seem less likely to me that they're meant to last. They didn't really get a proper love scene -- even Missandei and Grey Worm got a better one -- and we didn't even get to see their first kiss. Instead, their sex scene was included as part of a montage that included references to their both their blood relationship and a doomed romance in Rhaegar and Lyanna, neither of which screams epic, long-lasting love story to me. Plus, I've personally thought for ages now that at least one of them isn't making it out of the show alive.

I half expect that's exactly where the show will end up: With one or both of them on the throne and their immediate heir next in line; a nice bookend for the larger narrative that mirrors how this all started -- at Dragonstone with the Targys; a final season that will play heavily toward fantasy tropes that the first few seasons tried to subvert; a safe and conservative crowdpleaser because D&D want fans to watch their next thing and HBO wants subscribers to watch the spin-offs.

There's only two things I'm unsure of:

- How Cersei will die
- Why so many of you hesitate to embrace two beautiful actors quietly humping on a boat

[amberlita]

Can we really complain about such manipulation after the show pulled a bait and switch with Jon Snow's "death"? With that, they announced that they weren't gonna play fair and then rubbed the audience's face in it. (They had done similar things before, but not as badly as they did with that storyline.)

So, yeah, the Baelish thing was manipulative -- and I'm teasing a bit when I say this -- but what did you expect outta these guys?

I know this isn't the first time the writers have been manipulative. It's still annoying. There's nothing I can't complain about.


Watched the episode again and lingered a bit on the Jon/Dany boatsex scene (to *ahem* admire the uhhh.....musical score, and...cinematography) and of all the things from this episode what's vexing me the most is Tyrion's hallway creeping. Something was seriously up with him and I can't nail down what that might be. It's possible it's jealousy? Because I think Tyrion's in love with her (who isn't in love with Dany?) But wasn't he encouraging the match last episode? Why did he look downright angry when staring at that door and then mope off dejectedly? I'm just worried Cersei got to him somehow.

Of all the characters, Tyrion's closing arc seems the greatest mystery to me. I can foresee one or two predictable ends for each major character and I doubt the writers will deviate from that. Tyrion's the exception, assuming he still has another turn in store. I just don't know where he ends up unless he's dead or stays where he is, and the latter would be strange since he's basically been there for two seasons.