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Thread: The Match Cut 2017 Political Thread (or: The Lord of the Leaks: The Trump Towers)

  1. #476

  2. #477
    At what point can we agree that America in general has a gun fetish?
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  3. #478
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting transmogrifier (view post)
    At what point can we agree that America in general has a gun fetish?
    Only when you can agree that Prometheus is a good movie.

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  4. #479
    walks with the dead. Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    One thing you can do is support the charity LIFE AFTER HATE, which seeks to deconvert and de-radicalize white nationalism (founded by former members of such groups); Obama gave them a $400,000 grant, but the Trump admin rescinded that earlier this year.

    Planning on setting up a recurring payment when I get home today.

  5. #480
    What is best in life? D_Davis's Avatar
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    Now they're even removing statues of Norm MacDonald!


  6. #481
    What is best in life? D_Davis's Avatar
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    The best bang for my protest buck has been the ACLU. One of the last bastions of hope fighting against tyranny.

  7. #482
    All animals can scream number8's Avatar
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    Used to be mine, but this year I've decided to be more pointed and specific about what I want to help fund, and that's direct action groups; so I've been switching up my recurring donations. Ex: Instead of donating to Planned Parenthood, I now favor a local group that only funds abortions rather than umbrella women's health. Ditto with the prison bail funds I posted in the last page. There's also a student loan debt forgiveness fund I gave money to. I'm on the lookout for that kind of smaller stuff now, in lieu of supporting larger organizations (which are still great, but I'm sure are doing ok).

  8. #483
    walks with the dead. Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    Used to be mine, but this year I've decided to be more pointed and specific about what I want to help fund, and that's direct action groups; so I've been switching up my recurring donations. Ex: Instead of donating to Planned Parenthood, I now favor a local group that only funds abortions rather than umbrella women's health. Ditto with the prison bail funds I posted in the last page.
    Nice, good tip!

  9. #484
    walks with the dead. Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Very smart of Trump to make it all about the statues and history with his Twitfarts today. Most Americans are against taking down the monuments, so he's pivoting and acting like this was always about a glistening monument to Robert E. Lee instead of, y'know, nationalists holding a demonstration shouting about "blood and soil" and "Jews will not replace us" that resulted in a domestic terror attack.

  10. #485
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Winston* (view post)
    What views do you think the American left hold that are extreme? Curious as a foreigner. The Democrats had a pretty right-wing candidate this last election.
    It's not so much their views, so much as it is their behavior. I actually just got off the phone with a colleague who I was having this same conversation with, and while sharing some of our experiences with one another, I had mentioned to him how the left has honestly been just as guilty of acting out in a hateful manner as the right. For an example, after Trump won the election last year, the sheer amount of liberal friends on my feed who were spouting out such vile messages as "everyone who didn't vote Hillary should kill themselves tonight" is just a small sample of the sorts of things I saw out of them. And mind you, that wasn't a one-off, or even an extreme example. I saw a plethora of people posting these same sorts of things, saying that "no, we CAN'T co-exist if you voted for Trump" and the like, to the point that I actually had to just go on a blocking spree and completely shut out anything politics related from my internet feed for several months after that, because the negativity and hate was just too much to bear.

    And some of these were people who at one time I used to respect, who used to be friends of mine, and who had essentially cut myself and others who had considered them friends out of their life solely because we didn't like their candidate of choice. It didn't matter that I was also anti-Trump, I wasn't for THEIR stance either, and so therefore I was just as bad as if I had been one of those rabid Trump supports at any one of his rallies at that point. But these were people who used to really set a great example of conduct at one point in time, but who had over the years allowed for themselves to get so caught up in all of the negativity and allowed for all of the hatred being tossed back and forth to consume them, to the point where they were condemning everyone and anyone who didn't 100% agree with their stances. At that point, it doesn't matter what their stance may have been, because the way they went about demonizing anyone who disagreed with it undid every moral intent they may have at one point had. And then you have the riots immediately following Trump being elected, in which they had finally shown that even physically that had lost their composure, and had allowed for their hatred to completely dictate their actions in addition to their words.

    Mind you, that might be more of an example of the extreme left at their worst, but even before then, when you look at the verbiage used in promoting a lot of the modern stances of equality in America, there are people out there who are going to notice the negative connotations that consistently get attached to those messages. More to the point, how white, straight males had essentially become completely villainized as an entire people in order to get a lot of these messages across. And say what you will as to whether their points being brought up held merit, the thing is, white straight males in this country heard messages of hate being targeted at them en mass, and now we see with our very eyes as groups of embittered white straight males are coming together and embracing that message of hate in a literal form, becoming the very villains the left had continuously and incessantly accused them of being, even before they were actually guilty of any wrong-doing.

    Point I'm trying to make is, there aren't any innocent sides in this fight. Whether one side is worse than the other doesn't change the fact that both sides acted irresponsibly, to say the very least. Just as the right has been doing before now, the left has also proven themselves time and time again to be inspired by hatred with their actions, diluting any messages of love that may have initially been attached. And that's probably why I may sound like I'm being even harsher on the left in this instance, is because they're so insistent that they're acting with love in their hearts, while I've personally seen quite the opposite to be true, and to a disturbing degree that has quite frankly shook me. Both sides have been doing this to one another for years now. And the only difference right now is that the right is actually admitting to their monstrous actions with this whole Nazi movement happening now. But the left doesn't hold any moral high ground prior to this point. Their intentions may have been good, but their approach was all wrong, and only added more fuel to the hatred running rampant in America.

    I mean, just for an example, let's go back eight years ago at the debates between Obama and McCain leading up to their election. Sure, they may have gotten heated at times, but there always remained a level of respect in place, and that respect too, generally and comparatively speaking, reflected in the American people, despite their disagreements. Fast forward to this latest election season, and the "debates" that took place there, which were an absolute debacle, filled with belittling and shouting and arguing and nothing but vile disrespect for one another. But the thing about that, too, is that it was also a reflection of America at the time, and where we had come to as a country, and in such a short span of time. We had lost all mutual respect for one another as people, and now saw our political disagreements as an excuse to look down on one another as lesser beings.

    But hell, while it's easy for me to point fingers and say that everyone else was wrong all along, I too am not even innocent in all of this. Because I've quite possibly contributed to everything going on right now by choosing to just keep quiet and stay out of it, thus literally not doing anything to actually help the situation and try to PREVENT what's happening now, just sitting back watching from afar as it all transpired right before my very eyes. But, that's sorta what I've decided to do now, is actually talk to people, speak up when I see hateful things being posted online, and basically try to find a solution together, and try to figure out how we even got here in the first place. I mean, it may not seem like much, but I feel that at this point, it's the least I can do, is just try SOMETHING to get some sort of dialogue going.

    Mind you, this isn't everyone, but just the most extremist of both sides. Because I know plenty of liberals, conservatives, and moderates like myself on the less extreme side who are trying to look at things from a far more level headed mindset as well. But our voices have largely been drowned out by all of the shouting from those on the more extreme end, who have been the ones ultimately dictating the direction of our politics in this country for the past several years, all leading to the physical embodiment of all that hatred being spewed back and forth in the form of the Trump presidential term, and now with the presence of nazis in our streets in 2017.

    But like I said, I've been trying to finally add my voice to that conversation. But the first thing I've really noticed is that, while I desire to have these conversations with everyone from every stance, even the most extreme on both ends, honestly, while I know quite a number of extremist liberals, I actually, both online and IRL, don't happen to personal know or know of anyone who openly considers themselves part of the alt-right. Like, maybe I'm just lucky to not be in an openly extreme right leaning town, but I don't even know where to find these people. But I honestly want to. Because I honestly want to have these conversations with them as well, and get their perspective too as to how we got here, what drove them to the point where they felt the need to march down the streets donning a swastika, and what they think it'll take to be able to go back to a place of harmony in this country, assuming it's possible at all. I think this is an important conversation to have with everyone, of every belief, and see if we can't find some way of bringing ourselves back together as a country in the process, before we see even more people getting hurt or killed fighting one another off at the next rally. Because after all, I think in order to move forward, it's important to acknowledge what brought us here in the first place, so that we may learn something from it.

  11. #486
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    There's a difference between getting heated on Facebook or Kathy Griffin holding up a decapitated head than a man getting beaten with pipes because of the color of his skin or a woman being run over to promote love instead of hate. One side may say hateful things, but the far right actually hurt and kill people. They affiliate with an entire group of people who lynch black people and kill Jews. As annoying the extreme left come off, they don't pledge to a party who kill people. The left may not be good, but what the alt-right is doing is evil.

    I don't know you well, TGM, but I know that you are a white male, who lives a comfortable life watching movies and writing comic books. You do not live in fear. You may watch a movie like Detroit and find it powerful, but will never have to live through that oppression yourself. You can't simply talk to someone who was beaten by white supremacists and try to have a conversation and say both sides are to blame. I read all your posts and I just see someone angry behind a computer screen instead of someone who is constantly living in that fear every day. I can never understand the true horror of living in Trump's America. I can be sad and angry, but I'll never be truly afraid. Those are the two sides. People who are afraid and people who want to use fear to hurt people.
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  12. #487
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Watashi (view post)
    There's a difference between getting heated on Facebook or Kathy Griffin holding up a decapitated head than a man getting beaten with pipes because of the color of his skin or a woman being run over to promote love instead of hate. One side may say hateful things, but the far right actually hurt and kill people. They affiliate with an entire group of people who lynch black people and kill Jews. As annoying the extreme left come off, they don't pledge to a party who kill people. The left may not be good, but what the alt-right is doing is evil.

    I don't know you well, TGM, but I know that you are a white male, who lives a comfortable life watching movies and writing comic books. You do not live in fear. You may watch a movie like Detroit and find it powerful, but will never have to live through that oppression yourself. You can't simply talk to someone who was beaten by white supremacists and try to have a conversation and say both sides are to blame. I read all your posts and I just see someone angry behind a computer screen instead of someone who is constantly living in that fear every day. I can never understand the true horror of living in Trump's America. I can be sad and angry, but I'll never be truly afraid. Those are the two sides. People who are afraid and people who want to use fear to hurt people.
    You do have a point, I don't experience these things. I don't completely understand them. I only know my own experiences. But I also know that what I'm seeing right now isn't right, and I know that I want to do something to help. What I don't know is what it realistically is that I can do, and I also know that I don't want to have to resort to bringing any physical harm to anyone in the process. And I don't want anyone to have to resort to that either, if it can be prevented, on either side.

  13. #488

  14. #489
    good for health Skitch's Avatar
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    Yeah, you're not really wrong tgm, but your arguments use a lot of...a style of argument I don't have a good name for without sounding condescending. The "yeah but the other side did" argument isn't effective. We have to focus on the problem at hand, and that is Trump, and has fuck all to do with any past politician. I understand the history. Lesser of two evils got us here, I get it. But this shit is peaking hardcore. And there's no conversation with people who say "yes, nazis.....BUT....". Theres no but. Nazi bad period. Anything after a "but" is bullshit.
    Last edited by Skitch; 08-18-2017 at 02:42 AM.

  15. #490
    good for health Skitch's Avatar
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    That's the most I've said on it, because as a white guy, I feel I have no place commenting on these things other than telling other white people they're wrong as fuck. No chance I can speak to such things through prism of a POC.

    Edit, to be clear, I'm not singling you in that group of white people wrong as fuck.
    Last edited by Skitch; 08-18-2017 at 03:05 AM.

  16. #491
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    This comes across very condescending.
    What does?

  17. #492
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    To Skitch, I have seen "Whataboutism" coined more than a few times.
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  18. #493
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    ...More to the point, how white, straight males had essentially become completely villainized as an entire people in order to get a lot of these messages across. And say what you will as to whether their points being brought up held merit, the thing is, white straight males in this country heard messages of hate being targeted at them en mass, and now we see with our very eyes as groups of embittered white straight males are coming together and embracing that message of hate in a literal form, becoming the very villains the left had continuously and incessantly accused them of being, even before they were actually guilty of any wrong-doing.
    The question is whether or not the vilification you describe in the first half of your paragraph is meaningfully related to the white nationalists you cite in the second half.

    Right now, I have a lot of trouble saying the relationship is meaningful, let alone the dominant correlation. The truth is probably a lot messier.

  19. #494
    Moderator TGM's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    That's the most I've said on it, because as a white guy, I feel I have no place commenting on these things other than telling other white people they're wrong as fuck. No chance I can speak to such things through prism of a POC.

    Edit, to be clear, I'm not singling you in that group of white people wrong as fuck.
    Honestly, that's part of the reason I've stayed silent for so long, is because I've felt like I don't really have a place to really say anything in this conversation as a white male. And even now I'm not exactly comfortable speaking out. Quite the opposite, in fact. But I dunno, truth be told, ever since this weekend, I've honestly just been filled with so much sadness and frustration over the whole situation, to the point where I've had nights where I've had trouble getting to sleep, and days I honestly didn't even want to get out of bed.

    But it is true what Wats says. I know that if I want, I can unplug from the internet and just go about my day, and not really experience any of the effects of what's happening in other areas right now. And I'm not necessarily sure that's entirely just because I'm white, so much as because I happen to be lucky enough to live in a relatively decent area where this sorta thing isn't really happening just yet. But I can acknowledge that not everyone else's experience is the same, and I do know that there are people out there who are truly scared for their lives right now, and I hate that that's where we've come as a country.

    I think part of what personally bothers me though is how many people I personally know who are seemingly blood-lusted at the thought of hitting the streets and fighting. People who I love and care for. And that's the part that personally strikes me the most, is how many of my friends I seemingly don't recognize anymore from even just a few years back. Preachers of love and peace, and even back during a time when I actually used to be a bit more of a shithead myself. But I read the things that they say nowadays, and it's like they're not even the same people, like they've lost a piece of themselves somewhere along the way, and now everyone's gung-ho to go straight to war. And I just get so frustrated seeing that, yet I've never felt comfortable ever speaking out on it, because I'm honestly not at all a confrontational kinda person, and it just further frustrates me that we're even having to deal with any of this in the first place, because I do honestly feel that that response is only going to escalate things even further.

    And that also goes into what I said before about not knowing anyone on the alt-right. Hell, if I did have any friends on that side, I would certainly be sickened and appalled by those friends' actions as well, to say the very least. Like, I can't even imagine what goes through someone's head in this day and age to where they feel that that's the proper response to take, is to raise a Nazi flag and revive their ideals. And that they're being so open about it at that. Like, seriously, how did we get to this point in America?!

    I dunno. This whole thing sucks, and I'm tired. I don't know if I'm actually doing any good speaking out, or if it's even appropriate for me to do so. But that was sorta what I was discussing with that aforementioned colleague about, was having this conversation with everyone, and how to actually go about it. He agreed that he thought it was something that needed to happen, but he didn't necessarily feel comfortable being the one to initiate it. And honestly, I'm not sure that I'm suited for that role, either. I really don't know what I'm doing right now. I'm only used to staying out of this sorta shit.
    Last edited by TGM; 08-18-2017 at 05:03 AM.

  20. #495
    Planet Earth is blue. bac0n's Avatar
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    Just came up with a great compromise idea for those concerned that taking down these confederate monuments will in some way sweep our nation's heritage (snicker) under the rug.

    Here's my idea: we can take pictures of Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, etc. and put them on the backs of urinals. That way all the boys bellyaching will have something to look at while they pee, and the rest of us penis-americans will have a target.
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  21. #496
    What is best in life? D_Davis's Avatar
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    TGM - I've been thinking more about what you've been saying. I see the appeal. It seems like the level-headed, more nuanced, "mature," way to handle this situation. In most situations when tensions are escalating, and conflict is brewing, taking a non-violent, non-partisan side is the right way. Being calm and discussing is often a better way to handle things than throwing punches and letting tempers flare.

    However, I don't think that approach is right in all situations. I do think there comes a time when it is not just OK to fight, but it is actually the only morally right way to handle the situation. Dealing with Nazis is one of these times. The Germans had a word for those who stood with the Nazis even though they didn't necessarily believe all of Hitler's more extreme notions. That word is Nazi. We always talk about the "what if" in hindsight. What if people had the power to stop a tyrant from consolidating power? What if we had the power to stop a violent movement before it spread to widely? I truly believe we are at the cross roads of these two questions, and what we do right now will determine our place in history, and the future of the country.

    So while the "good guys" may not feel like choosing sides in the conflict, the "bad guys" are already doing it. Trump is energizing his immovable base, and that base includes the white supremacists, and the neo-Nazis. These are the people he is blowing dog whistles at with all of his racist and bigoted rhetoric. He is assembling a base of supporters who will get violent to protect their God Emperor. They're dressing like him, using his hand gestures as gang signs, talking like him, and they've all fully embraced Bannon's, Miller's and Gorka's neo-Nazi, fascist ideology, disguised as American / Economic Nationalism. So while the "good guys" may not want to align with a side in the fight, there is a side aligning against all who oppose them.
    Last edited by D_Davis; 08-18-2017 at 04:26 PM.

  22. #497
    What is best in life? D_Davis's Avatar
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  23. #498
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    This isn't a situation that happened overnight, is what I'm saying. What's happening right now has been brewing for a number of years now. And in that time, both the left and the right have become more and more extremist in their views, and more and more vile towards one another as a result of that. While I don't condone this alt-right Nazi movement, thing is, it's a direct response to the way that the left has continuously demonized them over the past several years. Honestly, I don't even think these are real Nazis, they're just a gathering of scared, confused, angry, and ignorant dorks that had felt like the world had completely villainized them, and so this whole Nazi thing happening right now is their way of acting out.
    This is pretty disgusting. You're coddling white supremacists by portraying them as victims of liberal bullying. White supremacists should be bullied. You can't reason with them anymore than you can reason with ISIS. And if you see one of them coming at you with a weapon, I think you're fully justified in slitting their throats. It's called self defence.

    But the point I'm trying to drive to is that the reason there's Nazis on the streets right now is because we have been so consistently hateful to one another for so long now. And adding even more hateful fuel to that fire isn't going to make things better, it's only going to continue to make things worse, because that's the precise mentality that got us here in the first place. Hate their ideals, but don't close yourself off to the prospect of reaching out to the individual with love in your heart and at least trying to see if the possibility of changing their ideals can't be achieved. Because that's the only thing that's going to change things at this point. Not a fist to the face, but an arm reaching out to help one another back on their feet, and just discussing the issue. Why are we so angry at one another? Why do we feel the need to spout such bigoted, racist drivel, and in 2017 no less? Why can't we coexist, even if we don't agree on everything? And is it possible to do so, before we decide that war is in fact the only option left available?
    We're angry because they have clubs, torches, guns, and mace. They want to hurt people, period. It's not about any issues that can be discussed.

    I'm not sure if you clicked the link in my original post a few pages back or not, but that's what it was about, an article about how a black man convinced over 200 KKK members to quit the Klan by merely talking with them and befriending them. If that man had responded to their hatred with even more hate, what good would that have done anybody? Absolutely nothing. However, by responding to their hatred instead with love in his heart, he was able to reach into their hearts and convince them of another way, a better way, and ultimately cure them of that hatred lingering within them. And I don't see why that can't be achieved in this instance, too.
    Violence isn't the only method for dealing with white nationalists (I think naming and shaming is also an effective, perfectly valid tactic), but if they're coming at me, I'm going to defend myself by any means necessary.

    You bring up World War II. Thing is though, this isn't a foreign enemy in another country we're talking about here. It's our fellow Americans, who we've lived alongside in harmony for many generations now, before things took a turn to absolute shit a few years back. But things weren't always that way, and they don't have to continue to be that way. But deciding that going out on the streets and fighting one another is the only option is all but ensuring that to be the case. After all, during the Bush years, which wasn't that long ago, all the liberals I knew were absolutely adamant about looking for peaceful resolutions to the terrible state of the world. And yet nowadays, it feels like those same liberals are the exact opposite, to the point where I don't even recognize them anymore.
    Ask a black person about living in harmony for many generations. Furthermore, the Vietnamese didn't beat the French, the Americans, and the Chinese through nonviolence. If someone's attacking you, you defend yourself, period.

    I don't think this is a fight where hate is ever going to trump hate, in either regard. I think this is one where it takes the ability to rise above that hate in order to pave the path to a better future, one where we can invite the other side to follow and join us, and see if we can't find a way to come back together again as a nation. Because quite frankly, I'm just so fucking tired of all of the hate. I've spent the past several years of my life doing my damndest to escape every stressful situation that I might find myself in, so needless to say, I don't even have the energy anymore for that sort of pointless, needless hatred in my heart or in my life. Call me naive, but there's gotta be a better way.
    Fascists never die. They may retreat to the shadows periodically, there may not even be that many of them, but they're always there. And the "boot Nazis" who actually go out and attack people are just the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty of "tie Nazis" and fellow travellers out there as well. We need to be vigilant, not apologetic.
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  24. #499
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    This woman is amazing.

    Bro clarified today that her daughter, a paralegal who lived in Charlottesville, was not part of any organized group protesting in her hometown, saying, "She was part of a group of human beings who cared to protest."

    "I'm honestly a little embarrassed to say that part of the reason Heather got so much attention is because she's white, and she stood up for black people," Bro told ABC News on Thursday. "Isn't that a shame? That a white person standing up for a black person caused all this excitement? That should be an everyday thing, that should be a norm."

    Bro said that she is now dedicating herself to "forward Heather's mission."

    "A lot of people are already aware of injustice, it's not that they're not aware, it's that they won't do anything about it," Bro said Thursday. "'I'm afraid, I'm afraid,' that's what I keep hearing, and that's what the murder of my daughter and the injury of several others was intended to do, was to make people afraid."

    "But if we live in fear, then they've won," she said, calling on people to "get involved" when they witness injustice.
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/mother-woma...ry?id=49283310

  25. #500

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