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Thread: Intelligent Sci-Fi Discussion

  1. #1
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Intelligent Sci-Fi Discussion

    I loved the discussion we had in the Total Recall Remake thread about what constitutes "good" sci-fi.

    Does it provide any sci-fi intellect? Or is it a disguised sub-genre movie (run and gun, chase, generic action). If you remove the sci-fi elements, what movie would you end up with? How directors combine sci-fi with intelligence, or is it merely a backdrop that adds no value to the underlining story?

    What do you think about this list of The 50 Best Sci-Fi Films Of The 21st Century (So Far)?

    Listed here for convenience since they have them across several pages:

    50. “Remainder” (2015)
    49. “2046” (2004)
    48. “Advantageous” (2015)
    47. “The World’s End” (2013)
    46. “Midnight Special” (2016)
    45. “Another Earth” (2011)
    44. “Serenity” (2005)
    43. “Coherence” (2014)
    42. “Cloverfield” (2008)
    41. “The Martian” (2015)
    40. “Never Let Me Go” (2010)
    39. “Signs” (2002)
    38. “Hard To Be A God” (2013)
    37. “Star Trek” (2009)
    36. “The Mist” (2007)
    35. “The Prestige” (2006)
    34. “Monsters” (2010)
    33. “A.I: Artificial Intelligence” (2001)
    32. “Interstellar” (2013)
    31. “Edge Of Tomorrow” (2014)
    30. “Battle Royale” (2000)
    29. “Melancholia” (2011)
    28. “Dawn Of The Planet Of The Apes” (2014)
    27. “Star Wars: The Force Awakens”
    26. “Beyond The Black Rainbow” (2010)
    25.”The Clone Returns Home” (2008)
    24. “Sunshine” (2007)
    23. “Wall-E” (2008)
    22. “Donnie Darko” (2001)
    21. “Ex Machina” (2015)
    20. “A Scanner Darkly” (2006)
    19. “Minority Report” (2002)
    18. “Looper” (2012)
    17. “Gravity” (2013)
    16. “Attack The Block” (2011)
    15. “Inception” (2010)
    14. “Snowpiercer” (2014)
    13. “Solaris” (2002)
    12. “District 9” (2009)
    11. “The Host” (2006)
    10. “Holy Motors” (2012)
    9. “Primer” (2004)
    8. “Timecrimes” (2007)
    7. “Moon” (2009)
    6. “Her” (2013)
    5. “Mad Max: Fury Road” (2015)
    4. “Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind” (2004)
    3. “Upstream Color” (2013)
    2. “Under The Skin” (2013)
    1. “Children Of Men” (2006)

    As far as I can tell, there's a few films on here that don't belong when you stick to the 'intelligent sci-fi' rule: Star Trek, Star Wars, Children of Men, District 9, The Martian, Mad Max: Fury Road,

    Otherwise it's a pretty good list. A few movies in the 40 range that I haven't seen.

    Anyone see Remainder? Advantageous? Timecrimes?
    Last edited by Dukefrukem; 07-28-2016 at 02:24 PM.
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    Oh. My. God. That thread. I long for the heady days when I was totally right and a complete dick about it.

    Two or three observations, current day:

    - I can't believe that fucking awful Minority Report remake generated that much discussion

    - Every other thing Skitch posted in there was great

    - DaMU pretty much nailed it with this:

    Quote Quoting Dead & Messed Up (view post)
    I think a problem is that literary science fiction has both the time and the proper medium for more cerebral explorations. Cinema, simply by being a "language" based on the presentation of imagery, places more emphasis on visualizing these ideas, and visualizing them puts more emphasis on spectacle, which appeals to a different part of the mind than ideas. It's the difference between visceral response and intellectual engagement.

    A theory, anyway.

    That's not to diminish the potential of sci-fi cinema, but I think literature has a natural advantage in this regard.
    I thought about this the other day, in some other discussion thread, when talking about the differences between mediums.

  3. #3
    Boy, it's been a dismal century for sci-fi, hasn't it?

    Children of Men is a classic example of a straightforward action film that scribbles topical allusions in the margins (e.g., black hoods * la Guantanamo) to let us know how important it is. Ditto The Host and, at a lower level of achievement, District 9, and at a still much lower level of achievement, Battle Royale--a film that has all the drawbacks of minimalism and none of the benefits.

    I like Under the Skin a lot, but at the same time, I'd still rather watch a real Kiarostami film. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with Soderbergh's remake of Solaris (or at least I remember liking it at the time), but I wouldn't watch it again.

    I'd say about sixty percent of Her is shots of Joaquin Phoenix's face in close-up while he listens to his computer.

    Snowpiercer is silly and incoherent. Either they have bullets or they don't; make up your mind. The Prestige and Inception are silly and insufferably bombastic.

    The part of Gravity that's about Sandra Bullock trying to survive in space is exciting and innovative; the part that's about her getting over the death of her child and finding Jesus is generic garbage. Signs was also pretty Jesusy.

    The complicated time-travel plots of Donnie Darko and Looper are diverting, but ultimately both are disposable entertainments that fade into oblivion the moment the credits start rolling.

    Much of Minority Report is wonderful, but ultimately it's more a collection of scenes and sequences than a coherent whole. Plus, the last half-hour is anti-climatic in the same way that the last half-hour of Speed is a let down.

    Wall-E is cute but I wouldn't watch it again.

    Apart from being offensively stupid, the Star Trek reboot perverts the dynamic of the original series by mashing Spock and Bones into a single character and turning Kirk into the Tom Cruise character from Top Gun.

    Dawn of the Planet of the Apes is a routine summer blockbuster with no distinguishing characteristics whatsoever.

    The first half-hour of The World's End is funny, but everything after the big twist is just monotonous and dull. (I prefer Ferrara's Body Snatchers for this sort of thing.)

    That said, I have nothing bad to say about 2046, A.I. Artificial Intelligence, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Holy Motors, Melancholia, Moon, Primer, and A Scanner Darkly.

    As for the larger question of "intelligent sci-fi," I don't think science fiction is inherently any more or less intelligent than any other genre.
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    As far as I can tell, there's a few films on here that don't belong when you stick to the 'intelligent sci-fi' rule: Star Trek, Star Wars, Children of Men, District 9, The Martian, Mad Max: Fury Road
    Well, lemme draw a distinction here that I didn't four years ago. I tried to argue two things and did it badly.

    One argument is that for something to count as sci-fi, the genre elements have to be unique to the story. If it's possible to tell the story in another way, in another genre, then it really isn't sci-fi. So space opera stuff like Star Wars or Serenity, adventure movies like The Martian, or movies that don't fully utilize their sci-fi premise, like Children of Men, any half dozen YA dystop adaptations, or, ahem, Star Trek.

    The second argument is pure personal preference. I get off on the potential for sci-fi to be a headtrip. I like movies that throw ideas off the screen and into the audience make us do, at least, some of the work. I like movies that spin me around with all their potential interpretations. I like movies that have a distinct point of view and something to say about the world. Sci fi is uniquely suited among genre stuff to do all that. That's what I meant way back when I was complaining about the lack of intelligence is big budget stuff.

    To criticize The Playlist's list directly: I see a lot of popular titles and little sense. The back half of the list seems almost random (Another Earth? Midnight Run? Really?). They got Coherence on there far too low. It wasn't just one of the best sci-fi films of 2014, it was one of the best of the decade. I also liked Predestination and The Rover from that same year, and they didn't even make the cut.

    One last note: I've developed a soft spot for sci-fi movies that contain ideas, or elements I've never seen before, despite completely fucking up their narratives or generally half-assing it in other areas. I'd rather watch movies like 28 Days Later, Solaris, Aeon Flux, Automata, The Rover, and the Robocop remake than most of the stuff in The Playlist's top ten. They aren't "better," just a helluva lot more interesting. (Automata, for one, is almost a complete clusterfuck but contains an idea I've literally never seen represented in another feature film).
    Last edited by Irish; 07-28-2016 at 02:28 PM.

  5. #5
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Predestination is definitely a miss on the list. Hard to imagine how they missed it in a "top 50" list.

    And yes, the back half to he list is random, I think you meant "Midnight Special" Irish? (not Midnight Run) - You liked that movie though right?
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Predestination is definitely a miss on the list. Hard to imagine how they missed it in a "top 50" list.

    And yes, the back half to he list is random, I think you meant "Midnight Special" Irish? (not Midnight Run) - You liked that movie though right?
    Ha, yes. Midnight Special.

    I don't know if I posted in that movie's thread. I loved the opening, liked all the performances. It has a lot of good stuff in it, but they use a narrative device that I knew would end badly while watching it, and that the film's third act was all but guaranteed to disappoint. The Signal (also from 2014!) did exactly the same thing. It made both movies fun to watch as a one-off experience, superficial overall, and totally uninteresting as a potential rewatch.

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    BTW, Fandor did a similar "Best Sci-Fi of the 21st Century" recently:



    20: Under the Skin (2014) dir. Jonathan Glazer
    19: Beyond the Black Rainbow (2010)
    18: Ex Machina (2015) dir. Alex Garland
    17: Looper (2012) dir. Rian Johnson
    16: Timecrimes (2008) dir. Nacho Vigalondo
    15: Primer (2004) dir. Shane Carruth
    14: Source Code (2011) dir. Duncan Jones
    13: Snowpiercer (2014) dir. Bong Joon-ho
    12: District 9 (2009) dir. Neill Blomkamp
    11: Edge of Tomorrow (2014) dir. Doug Liman
    10: Minority Report (2002) dir. Steven Spielberg
    9: Inception (2010) dir. Christopher Nolan
    8: Upstream Color (2013) dir. Shane Carruth
    7: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004)
    6: Her (2013) dir. Spike Jonze
    5: Solaris (2002) dir. Steven Soderbergh
    4: Sunshine (2007) dir. Danny Boyle
    3: Moon (2009) dir. Duncan Jones
    2: The Martian (2015) dir. Ridley Scott
    1: Children of Men (2006) dir. Alfonso Cuaron

    https://www.fandor.com/keyframe/the-...century-so-far

  8. #8
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Jesus why everyone is obsessed with Children of Men?
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    What are your top picks from both lists, Duke?

  10. #10
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    I'll have to think of a top 10- Will try to think of one later today when I get some time.

    Upstream Color and Primer would be in my top 10. So would Inception and probably Moon.

    Movies I disliked, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Looper, Under the Skin, Source Code. The Martian
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  11. #11
    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Jesus why everyone is obsessed with Children of Men?
    Vaguely liberal politics in the middle of the Bush era, show-offy long takes courtesy Terrence Malick's cinematographer, an open-ended ending, "based on the graphic novel by..." street cred, and because it's an "intelligent" sci-fi movie.

    Personally, I'd much rather watch a real Peter Watkins film.
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    Point of order: The movie was based on a 1990s pop novel from mystery author PD James, although it deviated from the source material in significant ways.

  13. #13
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Point of order: The movie was based on a 1990s pop novel from mystery author PD James, although it deviated from the source material in significant ways.
    I guess I was confusing it with V for Vendetta for some reason.
    Just because...
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    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Children of Men is in my top ten of all time, so no problem here.

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  15. #15
    Children of Men is getting close to being a shoe-in for most overrated movie of the 21st century.
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    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    In general I dig both of those lists. They're predictable but for solid reasons - a lot of those movies rock. Here are some other sci-fi (or sci-fi-ish) movies that I've enjoyed from the 2000s/2010s. Asterisks for the ones I'd probably include on a list:

    2012*
    The Box
    Chronicle*
    Cloud Atlas*
    The Fountain
    Godzilla*
    The Man From Earth
    Metropolis (2001)
    Pacific Rim
    Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
    Titan AE
    World of Tomorrow* (probably unlisted because it's a short)
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  17. #17
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    What the serious fuck is everyone splooging over Children of Men for?? I mean, its a fine film for sure, but best scifi of last anything? No way.

  18. #18
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    - Every other thing Skitch posted in there was great
    Lordy is that thread the definition of how I post....sitting on sidelines and lobbing in comment to spurn on when the argument begins to wan yet not quite taking a side. I cant help it, you guys post more interesting thoughts than me.

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    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Controversial thought: I enjoy Book of Eli a lot more than Fury Road.

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    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    I like both. Book of Eli is an underrated flick.

  21. #21
    The Pan megladon8's Avatar
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    Nice to see some recognition for Soderbergh's Solaris, which is better than Tarkovsky's widely touted original.

    I wish it would get a BluRay release.
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  22. #22
    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    Nice to see some recognition for Soderbergh's Solaris, which is better than Tarkovsky's widely touted original.

    I wish it would get a BluRay release.
    Rather than try to argue that Tarkovsky's version is obviously superior (since I doubt I'd convince anybody not already in agreement), I'll simply point out that they're very different kinds of movies: Soderbergh's is tightly plotted and highly legible (and accordingly, won't pose any difficulties for viewers who like their movies straightforward and easily digestible), whereas Tarkovsky's makes room for shots of underwater reeds, Tokyo traffic, and floating bodies that bring the plot to a standstill and its story can't be easily paraphrased (especially towards the end).
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    Sci-fi that soars on great ideas

    DARK STAR (1974)

    A BOY AND HIS DOG (1975)

    THE BROTHER FROM ANOTHER PLANET (1984)

    ALPHAVILLE (1965)

    LIQUID SKY (1982)

    CUBE (1997)

    PI (1998)

    PRIMER (2004)

    MONSTERS (2010)

    ANOTHER EARTH (2011)

    LOVE (2011)

    SAFETY NOT GUARANTEED (2012)

    https://filmink.com.au/2016/sci-fi-t...n-great-ideas/
    Last edited by Irish; 08-24-2016 at 02:30 PM.

  24. #24
    Second star to the right [ETM]'s Avatar
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    Quote Quoting megladon8 (view post)
    Nice to see some recognition for Soderbergh's Solaris, which is better than Tarkovsky's widely touted original.

    I wish it would get a BluRay release.
    I haven't seen the remake, but it would have to be a fucking all-time masterpiece to be better than the original.

  25. #25
    Bark! Go away Russ's Avatar
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    Irish, have you seen Andrzej Żuławski's "unfinished" epic sci-fi masterpiece (according to some, including me, naturally ), On the Silver Globe? Honestly, if I had to guess, I'm thinking you probably wouldn't care all that much for the film (due to its many excesses and self-indulgence) -- although I think you'd find the history of its production infinitely more interesting. I can guarantee one thing: love it or hate, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more thought-provoking intelligent sci-fi film.

    Be sure to check out this good filmcomment article too.

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