View Poll Results: EVERYBODY WANTS SOME!!

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Thread: Everybody Wants Some!! (Richard Linklater)

  1. #26
    - - - - - Irish's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    Or, Linklater authentically recreated the time period and had faith in the viewer to have the benefit of distance and to be able to think critically of these characters.
    C'mon. It doesn't authentically recreate anything. It romanticizes the hell out of one period in the director's life and to a ridiculous degree. It's an uncritical and unabashedly celebration of dudes and bros.

    Sometimes romanticizing your material is fine (Radio Days). Other times, it's kinda fucked up (Scarface, Wall Street). Other times, we can't really see it for what it is until somebody else points it out decades later (cf: The difference between Stagecoach and The Naked Spur, or The Godfather and Goodfellas, or High Noon and Taxi Driver*).

    Every other coming of age movie I cited -- and I could throw in a few more, like Fast Times, The Sure Thing, Vision Quest, Sid and Nancy, was more honest about its characters and its scenarios than Linklater is with his.

    How does the film do this?
    Dude. Bro. Dudebro. That would be a 1,000 word post. I'm not sure I have the energy.

    Shorthand:

    1) There's a "everybody gets laid!!" montage early on. One shot that, uh, caught my eye is of some random woman hooking up with one of the baseballers. The camera moves in on her chest pretty damn quick, cutting her head off in the frame, to focus on her chest. That in itself is already weirdly porny. We see a pair of male hands move up and over, pop open her blouse, and squeeze her bare breasts. It's more like something out of a tumblr gif than a feature film. That shot wasn't in the movie for any other reason than to titillate the audience. He's reinforcing his characters' alphaness; the woman doesn't enter into it beyond being a pair of tits. There are similar shots that offer up women on the basis of their fuckability, and none of them carry any comment, nuance, or criticism. Because of that, on a basic level, Linklater is assuming that you're 100% cooch loving dudebro.

    2) Outside the sole female lead, who literally disappears for an hour after she's introduced, there isn't a female character with more than 2 lines of dialogue. Like, Jesus, even 70s exploitation movies did better than that.

    3) I was serious about the bra thing. Did you think that choice was an accident on the part of every female walk-on and bit player? Because they wanted to "authentically recreate the time period?" Or do you think that maaaaaaybe that was driven by the 50 year old male writer/director? (I mean, this in itself is a laughable choice. Did he think nobody would notice? Or did he want them to?)

    4) Can't speak for anyone else, but when I was that age, I dated. I had female friends. An extended social circle. We hung out at each other's places. People would come over here or I'd go over there. Yet, in this movie, nobody socializes outside the baseball team except for Jenner's character. Nobody comes over to the house to visit (Do they have a bad rep? Is there a weird smell?). None of these uber jocks knows any women on campus, despite half of them being upperclassmen. The only guy who has a girlfriend is the object of the group's constant derision (the cornpone cowboy roommate dude). Their entire world is insular, purely male, and that's really fucking weird in a coming of age story, especially one about a bunch of alpha-type extroverts.

    5) From that angle, man oh man does this film cautiously step around depicting anything that's vaguely homoerotic, even though holy fucking christ half the set-ups could be lead ins for gay porn.

    I haven't even mentioned the movie's treatment of race -- or rather, extremely careful non-treatment -- by having nobody notice that there's a token black guy on the team. What are the chances that nobody would mention anything about race in this scenario? In Texas. In 1980.

    * And God bless Mr Martin Scorsese.
    Last edited by Irish; 03-03-2017 at 12:22 AM.
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  2. #27
    Winston* Classic Winston*'s Avatar
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    I think Goodfellas romanticises being a gangster more than The Godfather.

  3. #28
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Their entire world is insular, purely male, and that's really fucking weird in a coming of age story, especially one about a bunch of alpha-type extroverts.
    OK, here is the key disagreement, I think. This, to me, is not weird. This is, rather, the point of the movie. To show an insular group that is obsessed with image and status to the point where they are vulgar and cruel. Your arguments would hold up better if the focal character wasn't someone who goes against the grain of the group (takes an interest in the theatre major, encourages them to go to a punk show, etc.) I don't think the film is about celebrating the pressures and the obsessions of the group. I think the film is about someone who is trying to retain his individuality and soul in the face of a very toxic masculine dynamic. Sure, he wants to fit in. But he also sees them as narrow. And, in my opinion, the audience is invited to see them as idiots.
    The Night of the Hunted (Rollin, 1980) **1/2
    The Demoniacs (Rollin, 1974) **
    First Man (Chazelle, 2018) ***
    A Star is Born (Cooper, 2018) ***
    A Simple Favor (Feig, 2018) **1/2
    Mandy (Cosmatos, 2018) **1/2
    The Three Musketeers (Niblo, 1921) **
    Chi-Raq (Lee, 2015) ***1/2
    The Headless Woman (Martel, 2008) ***
    Searching (Chaganty, 2018) **

  4. #29
    The Pan Spinal's Avatar
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    The knowledge that the audience has is that these guys will never be this popular again for the rest of their lives. Their looks will go and they'll just be sad, adult assholes. That, to me, is what underlies the whole movie.
    The Night of the Hunted (Rollin, 1980) **1/2
    The Demoniacs (Rollin, 1974) **
    First Man (Chazelle, 2018) ***
    A Star is Born (Cooper, 2018) ***
    A Simple Favor (Feig, 2018) **1/2
    Mandy (Cosmatos, 2018) **1/2
    The Three Musketeers (Niblo, 1921) **
    Chi-Raq (Lee, 2015) ***1/2
    The Headless Woman (Martel, 2008) ***
    Searching (Chaganty, 2018) **

  5. #30
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    1) There's a "everybody gets laid!!" montage early on. One shot that, uh, caught my eye is of some random woman hooking up with one of the baseballers. The camera moves in on her chest pretty damn quick, cutting her head off in the frame, to focus on her chest. That in itself is already weirdly porny. We see a pair of male hands move up and over, pop open her blouse, and squeeze her bare breasts. It's more like something out of a tumblr gif than a feature film. That shot wasn't in the movie for any other reason than to titillate the audience. He's reinforcing his characters' alphaness; the woman doesn't enter into it beyond being a pair of tits. There are similar shots that offer up women on the basis of their fuckability, and none of them carry any comment, nuance, or criticism. Because of that, on a basic level, Linklater is assuming that you're 100% cooch loving dudebro.

    2) Outside the sole female lead, who literally disappears for an hour after she's introduced, there isn't a female character with more than 2 lines of dialogue. Like, Jesus, even 70s exploitation movies did better than that.

    3) I was serious about the bra thing. Did you think that choice was an accident on the part of every female walk-on and bit player? Because they wanted to "authentically recreate the time period?" Or do you think that maaaaaaybe that was driven by the 50 year old male writer/director? (I mean, this in itself is a laughable choice. Did he think nobody would notice? Or did he want them to?)

    4) Can't speak for anyone else, but when I was that age, I dated. I had female friends. An extended social circle. We hung out at each other's places. People would come over here or I'd go over there. Yet, in this movie, nobody socializes outside the baseball team except for Jenner's character. Nobody comes over to the house to visit (Do they have a bad rep? Is there a weird smell?). None of these uber jocks knows any women on campus, despite half of them being upperclassmen. The only guy who has a girlfriend is the object of the group's constant derision (the cornpone cowboy roommate dude). Their entire world is insular, purely male, and that's really fucking weird in a coming of age story, especially one about a bunch of alpha-type extroverts.

    5) From that angle, man oh man does this film cautiously step around depicting anything that's vaguely homoerotic, even though holy fucking christ half the set-ups could be lead ins for gay porn.

    I haven't even mentioned the movie's treatment of race -- or rather, extremely careful non-treatment -- by having nobody notice that there's a token black guy on the team. What are the chances that nobody would mention anything about race in this scenario? In Texas. In 1980.
    Nicely detailed. I didn't even notice the bra thing. Your first bullet reminds me of a point made in The Big Short thread by number8 (I think?) that it alienated its female audience as well by assuming that everyone who watched the movie would prefer a financial lecture from naked Margot Robbie in a bubble bath to Ryan Gosling. The filmmaker was clearly assuming something about its audience: that they were primarily straight white men (or lesbian white females, but let's get real).

    Also, this:
    On the criticism that Everbody Wants Some!! doesnít make space for fully realized women, here are each of their responses:

    Ryan Guzman: If a full cast of women made a movie about women I guarantee you it would be a movie for men as well. I would love to watch a bunch of beautiful women on screen too. You can pick and prod as much as you want but when it comes down to it what we made is a pure cinematic film based on the lives of these guys. Itís a day in the life. Weíre not trying to please everybody, weíre just trying to be ourselves and entertain through that.

    Tyler Hoechlin: Look at a movie like Bridesmaids. Thereís primarily women, and one or two guys with a name. Itís just based on the story. Itís based on Rick [Linklater]ís life. There werenít many women who lived in the baseball houses. Itís the way it is. These are the characters and this is what the story focuses on and that happens to be the situation. But at the end of the day, I have heard from a lot of girls who I maybe didnít expect to like it much and they said Ďwe love this. We expected it to be a guys movie.í But theyíre having as much fun as the guys in the theater. The overall response has been positive.

    Blake Jenner: If you look at a movie like A League of their Own, where itís mainly women, youíre getting to see the birth of the sisterhood. Youíre seeing the trials and errors of a baseball team working together. Thatís what youíre seeing here. You donít get to see us over the course of a season, but you get to see the birth of a brotherhood and you get to see trust growing between upperclassmen and freshmen. You see how the freshmen handle the hazing and you start to say, okay, if you could you would stay on the road with these guys and see a whole season. But you donít get to. You just get to see it all at the beginning. Itís a different perspective on creating a team.
    Mind-bogglingly clueless.

  6. #31
    - - - - - Irish's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    OK, here is the key disagreement, I think. This, to me, is not weird. This is, rather, the point of the movie.
    It's weird in the sense that it goes beyond cliquish to being cultish. The way these boys are presented, it's like they're under house arrest (who spends all day inside playing ping pong during the last days of summer? In Texas?).

    I agree with you in one sense, but I also think you're being generous. The elements you cite definitely exist, but they are underdeveloped because the characters are underwritten. Nobody in this film has any detail around them that would make them into an individual. (I understand you interpret that as part of the point.) Jenner, for his part, acts a little more human because he's a little more friendly. I don't think that's a big, deep, abiding theme. For every time Jenner smiles at a stranger and is outgoing, there's a half dozen other instances where he tags along silently with the group, or capitulates with whatever they're doing.

    There are so many ways Linklater could have done what you suggest, and done it better, and in a way that would have made his world more three dimensional.

    Quote Quoting Spinal (view post)
    The knowledge that the audience has is that these guys will never be this popular again for the rest of their lives. Their looks will go and they'll just be sad, adult assholes. That, to me, is what underlies the whole movie.
    I gotta break with you there. That's all in your head. There is literally nothing in the movie that suggests this outcome.
    Matchcut: A vicious snowflake

  7. #32
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Winston* (view post)
    I think Goodfellas romanticises being a gangster more than The Godfather.
    Intentionally so in the first half.

    A Star is Born - ***
    The Kindergarten Teacher - *** 1/2
    First Man - ***


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  8. #33
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I gotta break with you there. That's all in your head. There is literally nothing in the movie that suggests this outcome.
    I mean, if that character who already graduated years ago but still disguised as fellow student had said out loud while being kicked out "Many of you will be sad as adults like me some day!", we would be accusing Linklater as a bit overly blunt.
    Midnight Run (1988) - 9
    The Smiling Lieutenant (1931) - 8.5
    The Adventures of Robinhood (1938) - 8
    Sisters (1973) - 6.5
    Shin Godzilla (2016) - 7.5

  9. #34
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    A very enjoyable first hour that kind of runs its course and gets a little old in the final half. Isn't that the college experience in a nutshell too?

    The debate on this thread, I'm not really sure how to look at it. It's kind of just one big fantasy/dream anyway, considering the baseball teams don't typically start practicing until January, and this movie is in August/September time. There's little to no consequences and the actual school side is almost completely ignored on all ends. The goal is basically to either make friends laugh or get some if the chance presents itself. Enjoy the times I guess? I think that's why I kind of got bored in the second half of the movie.

    In the end, when someone manages to get to know a character beyond a hookup at a party, it is well-respected in a jabbing way at least.

    I don't think I can recall anybody's names, just point out what they look like. Kind of like what a college party was like.

    A Star is Born - ***
    The Kindergarten Teacher - *** 1/2
    First Man - ***


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  10. #35
    The Pan Spinal's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I gotta break with you there. That's all in your head. There is literally nothing in the movie that suggests this outcome.
    As Peng rightly noted, I didn't mean to suggest that it's actually in the movie. I guess I'm just saying that there is an inherent comedy in the bravado of the young, and that by setting the film in an era with absurd hairstyles and fashion, Linklater is underscoring that idea.
    The Night of the Hunted (Rollin, 1980) **1/2
    The Demoniacs (Rollin, 1974) **
    First Man (Chazelle, 2018) ***
    A Star is Born (Cooper, 2018) ***
    A Simple Favor (Feig, 2018) **1/2
    Mandy (Cosmatos, 2018) **1/2
    The Three Musketeers (Niblo, 1921) **
    Chi-Raq (Lee, 2015) ***1/2
    The Headless Woman (Martel, 2008) ***
    Searching (Chaganty, 2018) **

  11. #36
    The Pan Spinal's Avatar
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    Also, I'm not allowed to rep you yet, but I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. Thanks.
    The Night of the Hunted (Rollin, 1980) **1/2
    The Demoniacs (Rollin, 1974) **
    First Man (Chazelle, 2018) ***
    A Star is Born (Cooper, 2018) ***
    A Simple Favor (Feig, 2018) **1/2
    Mandy (Cosmatos, 2018) **1/2
    The Three Musketeers (Niblo, 1921) **
    Chi-Raq (Lee, 2015) ***1/2
    The Headless Woman (Martel, 2008) ***
    Searching (Chaganty, 2018) **

  12. #37
    Errand Boy
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    This was excellent. Maybe my favorite Linklater film since Before Sunrise.

  13. #38
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    This is not as good as Dazed and Confused but it's a great "spiritual sequel". Linklater dominates this type of rambling movie and he has a recurrent theme of the inability to re-capture those moments of youth. That has never been as evident as in the Willoughby subplot.

    Regarding the debate on this thread... I don't think any filmmaker has an obligation to make a movie for everybody or even one that makes everybody comfortable. Disregarding the differences in quality, I don't find any enjoyment in a Bridget Jones movie or Sex and the City but I don't balk at their mere existence.

    And The Godfather is definitively more glamourized than Goodfellas. As tragic as Michael Corleone's fate is, it's operatic - it will never be as nasty and flat out depressing as the last twenty minutes of Goodfellas.

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