The Hateful Eight (Quentin Tarantino)

[ledfloyd]

I also felt like it was his most angry, violent, and mean spirited film. It's absolutely fucking nasty in places. But again, I don't think this was superfluous or gratuitous. To me it feels like a very angry and nasty reaction to the angry and nasty times we are currently living in.

See, I felt that it was kind of gratuitous. I think part of it is that his thesis is kind of underdeveloped, which could be because this is his first time making a political film.

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Like what was the point of having Walton Goggins entertain Daisy's invitation to collaborate? It just prolonged her suffering. The film feels sadistic in places. And it isn't justified like it was in Django and Basterds because we're never given a sense of the atrocities this gang carried out.

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There are other little throwaway things that seem kind of silly. Like why divide the bar into Philadelphia and Georgia if that's never going to be followed up on. It's a stupid, showy way of saying, "See, it's like Minnie's Haberdashery is a microcosm of postwar America, you know!?" which was already pretty clear.

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Also, it's already been mentioned that the chapter introducing Channing Tatum was more or less unnecessary. But why spend time introducing characters who are so clearly — given what we've seen so far — cannon fodder? Is there anything at all gained from that sequence? I'm willing to hear arguments.

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I also don't understand what the point is. Like I get that he's commenting on extra-judicial killings and race relations, but to what end? It devolves into an orgy of violence and no point is ever made.

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Also, the big black pecker monologue was unsettling (and I get that it was supposed to be) because you can almost see Quentin gleefully smiling as he's writing it. Almost as if he's thinking, "look what I can get away with here because I have a black leading man!"

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Not to mention Jennifer Jason Leigh serving more or less as a punching bag during the first half of the film almost exclusively for comic relief.

ETA: Just to clarify. I don't think the film is misogynist or racist, as some have claimed. I just don't think Quentin understands politics and history nearly as well as he understands movies, so the themes are half-assed and this stuff sticks out. It's more stupidity and ignorance than malice.

ETAA: And this is all in addition to the fact that the film feels overlong and lacks the rhythms and snappy dialogue most of us come to Tarantino films for in the first place.

[D_Davis]

I just don't think Quentin understands politics and history nearly as well as he understands movies, so the themes are half-assed and this stuff sticks out. It's more stupidity and ignorance than malice.

I agree - which is why it's not top-tier for me. It could have, and should have, been even better.

But then again, ranking his films is almost impossible for me to do, because I like every single one to some degree, and the order becomes almost entirely meaningless.

[Milky Joe]

The race-relations thing seems like a red herring; the misogyny is the grander point. White men and black men hate each other's guts... but they'll put aside their differences when it comes to "giving this bitch what she deserves." It's the Elephant in the Room.

My girlfriend, who is easily the hardcorest feminist I've ever met, got up and walked out of the theater in the final scene as they were stringing Daisy up (she came back for the final moments). She said the "punitive glee" with which the film treated Daisy was disturbing and sickening, and she just didn't "get" the movie, or what the point was supposed to be. Is Tarantino just trying to piss women off, or get women angry/riled up?

Then, a couple days later, after considering it, she says, "I want to see it again."

That's a remarkable achievement, IMO.

[number8]

I don't think it's a red herring, I think it works hand in hand with the misogyny to support the larger theme. It's all essentially about the idea of, as Oswaldo said, frontier justice vs true justice. Tarantino seems to be saying (and his joining of Black Lives Matter seems to support this reading) that it's very easy to justify straight up gleeful murder in the guise of justice or self defense, in the absence of accountability. The problem with Oswaldo's philosophy of "being dispassionate" is that passion is a hard thing to excise from judgments, especially in a society that has not moved past making second class citizens out of various groups. Even John Ruth, who presents himself as a slavery-hating Lincoln lover, is revealed to harbor racism at the tiniest of slight by Warren. And Daisy, who we never see commit any crime, is said to have yet stand trial, and acts in self defense throughout the movie, becomes the target of everyone's frustrations.

Another thing: Tarantino is very much aware of the criticism that follows his liberal use of the word "nigger," and has defended it with his belief that he has a purpose in using it. It would be naive, then, to not assume that he goes through the gamut of insults one can say to a woman in this movie without a purpose, as well. There is passion in those words, and the use of those words indicate the characters' incapability of true justice.

[D_Davis]

Tarantino seems to be saying (and his joining of Black Lives Matter seems to support this reading) that it's very easy to justify straight up gleeful murder in the guise of justice or self defense, in the absence of accountability.

Totally agree. Which is why I said that this film, more than any of his others, is a direct response to our current sociopolitical climate.

[Gizmo]

I gave it a mild yay, but agree that it's a bit overlong and poorly paced at times. I think cutting it down to 2 hours would have done wonders. I've never been much of a Tarantino fan, but his last couple were upward trending him for me. This is turning it back the other way.

1. Inglourious Basterds
2. Reservoir Dogs
3. Django Unchained
4/5. Kill Bill
4/5. The Hateful Eight
6. Pulp Fiction
Death Proof- NA
Jackie Brown- NA

[Ezee E]

I gave it a mild yay, but agree that it's a bit overlong and poorly paced at times. I think cutting it down to 2 hours would have done wonders. I've never been much of a Tarantino fan, but his last couple were upward trending him for me. This is turning it back the other way.

1. Inglourious Basterds
2. Reservoir Dogs
3. Django Unchained
4/5. Kill Bill
4/5. The Hateful Eight
6. Pulp Fiction
Death Proof- NA
Jackie Brown- NA

Watch Jackie Brown.

[Dukefrukem]

Watch Jackie Brown.

The second most overrated movie ever made.

[Ezee E]

The second most overrated movie ever made.

So wrong.

[number8]

As with any rankings, mine are always constantly in flux. But here's a moment captured in time, my ranking at this second:

1. Inglourious Basterds
2. Death Proof
3. Kill Bill
4. Reservoir Dogs
5. The Hateful 8
6. Jackie Brown
7. Django Unchained
8. Pulp Fiction

[Skitch]

The second most overrated movie ever made.

I may be wrong, but I don't think of that movie as widely highly regarded, so I'm not sure how it could be overrated.

[Skitch]

As with any rankings, mine are always constantly in flux. But here's a moment captured in time, my ranking at this second:

1. Inglourious Basterds
2. Death Proof
3. Kill Bill
4. Reservoir Dogs
5. The Hateful 8
6. Jackie Brown
7. Django Unchained
8. Pulp Fiction

On another day, that could easily be my lineup. Only thing that doesn't change for me is Kill Bill is best, and Pulp Fiction is least.

[Milky Joe]

Am I the only person who still thinks Kill Bill Vol. 1 was the best iteration of that movie? I never actually watched The Whole Bloody Affair, but that first volume was the tits, just bled style. Part 2 was too talky. I dunno how I feel about the story being in chronological order, as the non-linear storytelling was part of its charm for me.

[D_Davis]

Kill Bill is my 2nd least favorite Tarantino.

My ranking is (I guess...I mean it's mostly meaningless):

1. Pulp Fiction
2. Jackie Brown
3. Inglorious Basterds
4. Django
5. Death Proof
6. Hateful 8
7. Kill Bill
8. Reservoir Dogs

[Ezee E]

Am I the only person who still thinks Kill Bill Vol. 1 was the best iteration of that movie? I never actually watched The Whole Bloody Affair, but that first volume was the tits, just bled style. Part 2 was too talky. I dunno how I feel about the story being in chronological order, as the non-linear storytelling was part of its charm for me.

Depends on the mood for me.

[Irish]

Am I the only person who still thinks Kill Bill Vol. 1 was the best iteration of that movie? I never actually watched The Whole Bloody Affair, but that first volume was the tits, just bled style. Part 2 was too talky. I dunno how I feel about the story being in chronological order, as the non-linear storytelling was part of its charm for me.

No, you're not the only one. I've only seen both films separately, and once. The first part is a human cartoon, and I mean that in a good way. It's energetic and visually stunning. The second part is foggy to me; the only thing I can recall is Bill's deeply silly monologue at the end. The whole thing felt overwritten and ill-considered.

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On rankings:

I tend to think of Tarantino's movies in groups, and loosely:

[ True Romance, Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Jackie Brown ]

[ Kill Bill Part I, Kill Bill Part II ]

[ Death Proof, Basterds, Django, Hateful 8 ]

That first group is it for me (and I know True Romance isn't technically a "Tarantino film," but it sounds so much like one I always think of it that way). I think that first group contains his best work.

Jackie Brown is the turning point. It's probably the most mature thing he's done. He didn't get the commercial or critical response he wanted, so he went away and sulked for a bit and decided on a different direction.

I think QT gets less interesting the less he cares about structure and the more he moves away from traditional narrative.

That last group is also odd because it becomes increasingly mean-spirited. The joy that once floated around his movies is gone.

[TGM]

Am I the only person who still thinks Kill Bill Vol. 1 was the best iteration of that movie? I never actually watched The Whole Bloody Affair, but that first volume was the tits, just bled style. Part 2 was too talky. I dunno how I feel about the story being in chronological order, as the non-linear storytelling was part of its charm for me.

Part 1 didn't work for me at all on its own, so much so that I put off watching Part 2 for a significant amount of time. But when I did finally get around to watching Part 2, it was together along with Part 1, in which the movie suddenly really pulled together and was damn impressive. I've never seen Part 2 separately, but I would imagine that it'd have a similar effect on me as watching Part 1 solo, ie, it wouldn't do anything for me and just wouldn't work without its other half. Kill Bill was always intended to be one big, grand, singular experience, and that's really how it should be viewed. Splitting that movie into two was always a mistake.

[Pop Trash]

This is just... nothing.

What the fuck are you talking about? This is one of the nastiest films about America ever committed to celluloid.

[ledfloyd]

What the fuck are you talking about? This is one of the nastiest films about America ever committed to celluloid.

I outlined a bunch of reasons why I felt like it didn't work in a subsequent post.

Basically, I don't think Quentin's grasp on American history is anywhere near as firm as his grasp on movie history.

[MadMan]

I'm not surprised that I dug this film a lot more than some did here. Pretty great crossbreeding of The Thing and Reservoir Dogs. That final act is pure state of nature. Also Goggins gave one of my favorite performances of the decade in this film. He was hilarious.

Also QT ranked:

Django Unchained
Pulp Fiction
The Hateful Eight
Inglourious Basterds
Kill Bill Vol. 2
Jackie Brown
Reservoir Dogs
Death Proof
Kill Bill Vol. 1

[transmogrifier]

Five minutes till reckoning...

[Melville]

Am I the only person who still thinks Kill Bill Vol. 1 was the best iteration of that movie? I never actually watched The Whole Bloody Affair, but that first volume was the tits, just bled style. Part 2 was too talky. I dunno how I feel about the story being in chronological order, as the non-linear storytelling was part of its charm for me.

Completely agree. Vol 2 was a slog.

1. Inglourious Basterds
2. Django Unchained
3. Pulp Fiction
4. Kill Bill Vol 1
----don't really like the movies below this
5. Reservoir Dogs
6. Jackie Brown
7. Kill Bill Vol 2
8. Death Proof

I wasn't a fan before his last two movies, but I loved their postmodern movie versions of history. My expectations for Hateful 8 have been damped, and it sounds like it indulges in the aspects of Tarantino I dislike (e.g., interminable dialogue that I don't find at all interesting). But it still looks to be thematically and formally interesting.

[Skitch]

Mel, considering your rankings you'll probably love it.

[Wryan]

This is a frightening piece of theater and staging, shot through with amusements both dirty and clean. Russell's false bluster as big as his hair. Goggins being just superb as usual. Leigh getting the absolute most out of the fewest lines in recent memory. The lies we tell ourselves and one another to make it through life. I'll echo what some others have said and say that Quentin's usual sharp ear for dialogue falters a bit, if only because he seemingly wanted to make the most present and nakedly political film he could today. The dialogue here feels even more inventively false for the setting than the loopy, long-held linguistics in Basterds. (It's still sort of delightful.) And I'm just not sure what to make of the daffy near-Disney glow of the filler chapter's early moments. I expected cartoon birds to swoop in and help make coffee. It'd be a heinous shame if people only looked at Leigh's character as a punching bag. She held this thing together like her character's presence held the movie's men "together."

[Melville]

Mel, considering your rankings you'll probably love it.

Cool. I'm looking forward to it either way.