Game of Thrones (Season 6)

[Grouchy]

I actually kind of dig the Greyjoys - they seem like a really hard bunch and I like that their motto is "We do not sow". Honest.

[Peng]

These two episodes feel like the showrunners realize they don't have text to follow anymore, so to make things easier for them, here come an avalanche of character deaths and match-ups to clear out or speed up storylines.

[Spinal]

These two episodes feel like the showrunners realize they don't have text to follow anymore, so to make things easier for them, here come an avalanche of character deaths and match-ups to clear out or speed up storylines.

It confuses me that people still act like Benioff and Weiss are making this up as they go along. They've had the rest of the series mapped out for some time now. They have been in conversations with George R.R. Martin. They know where they're heading. If someone dies, it's because their character no longer has a significant impact on the story, or their death is needed to open up a new avenue. What more do we really need to know about Balon Greyjoy? He's a minor character. All we need to know is that his death is going to cause unrest in the Iron Islands. It's not significantly different than the way his death is treated in the books in which we hear about his mysterious fall secondhand.

If Martin had completed the book series, the show would not likely run any longer or take more time. You have child actors that are growing up. You have elderly actors that could become incapable of working. You have adult actors that are becoming stars and gaining opportunities elsewhere. What the showrunners are doing to streamline the story and manage hundreds of characters in multiple locations is unprecedented. I'm not sure why people are acting like they're getting cheated out of something.

[Grouchy]

Yeah, I've been reading a lot of negative criticism about the writing in these couple of episodes and it makes me wonder what show have they been watching. Luck reversals and surprise betrayals and killings have been par the course for Thrones for all of its five seasons. I don't see why they are "cheaper" this time around.

I mean, Roose Bolton's death is properly foreshadowed and, like Spinal says, Balon Greyjoy's death has made the Iron Islands situation more interesting than all of his conversations of his daughter from previous seasons.

[Spinal]

Regarding Jon Snow:

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Now that he has died, will he use it as a loophole to get out of the Night's Watch oath? Likely, he will return to his main mission. But is he now free to 'wear crowns' and 'win glory' and 'father children'?

]

[Fezzik]

Regarding Jon Snow:

[

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Now that he has died, will he use it as a loophole to get out of the Night's Watch oath? Likely, he will return to his main mission. But is he now free to 'wear crowns' and 'win glory' and 'father children'?

]

I think that's the plan. I honestly think that was the plan all along. The series is called "A Song of Ice [Jon Snow] and Fire [Daenerys Targaryen]" after all.

That's why I roll my eyes when all the armchair critics claim the ending of this past episode was nothing but 'Fan Service.' Its clearly foreshadowed in the books. D&D didn't pull it out of their ass.

[Grouchy]

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. You're right, he already gave his life. Now... his Watch is over?

[DavidSeven]

Roose's end reminded me of Joffrey's, in that it was a fairly limp way to finish off another Stark antagonist. Ramsay's getting off'ed by some rando wildling a year from now, huh?

Good episode otherwise, besides that bridge thing which was weird and confusing.

[Spinal]

I think that's the plan. I honestly think that was the plan all along. The series is called "A Song of Ice [Jon Snow] and Fire [Daenerys Targaryen]" after all.

Interesting. I always interpreted the title as [

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White Walkers vs. Dragons, which is what I assume the final confrontation will be.

]

That's why I roll my eyes when all the armchair critics claim the ending of this past episode was nothing but 'Fan Service.' Its clearly foreshadowed in the books. D&D didn't pull it out of their ass.

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Not to mention that it's a standard element of myth! Seriously, how do people not recognize this by now? That said, I think the show did a great job of building suspense and making us sweat out the final few moments. And I appreciate the commitment by the show's team during the off-season to the reality of Snow's death. Even if it is pretty clear in retrospect to see where it all was going, letting the kernel of doubt linger makes for a better viewing experience. Which is why all these media outlets spoiling the story hours after it happens should be ashamed of themselves.

]

[number8]

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Not to mention that it's a standard element of myth! Seriously, how do people not recognize this by now?

]

Long haired and bearded dude trying to bring about peace got betrayed by his closest confidant and stabbed in the gut, died, and returned to life a couple of days later? Never heard it before.

[Ezee E]

My question is whether Jon Snow is susceptible to becoming a White Walker now that he's basically already been "dead."

[Spinal]

The murders aren't random though. That's what I'm saying. What character of significance has been killed 'randomly'?

[DavidSeven]

Todd VanDerWerff had a pretty good rundown the other day: http://www.vox.com/2016/5/2/11564220...p-ramsay-twist

I think this is a fair perspective, and I tie it back to what I said about Roose and Joffrey's fates being narratively limp. From a story arc standpoint, these significant characters are being off'd without much payoff or development of character. What was now the point of Red Wedding and Ned Stark's be-heading beyond shock and to reiterate the show's theme of a struggle for power (which is already very much at the surface)? As the primary antagonists behind those events are innocuously eliminated from the show, the emotional significance of those events gradually dissipate into the ether. Those events, significant as they were, should have been the launching of a larger, meaningful arc. I am not even exclusively talking of an audience satisfaction thing as it relates to vengeance, though that's a factor; but it seems to me that they're losing an opportunity to say something about important characters like Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow, or whoever else may have had the opportunity to defeat their antagonist if they weren't disposed of so tangentially.

[Spinal]

I'm not caught up, but off the top of my head-- The Hound? Oberyn? Ygritte? Joffrey? Caitlyn?

OK, I have to speak strictly from the perspective of the show, as some of these characters have different paths in the books.

The Hound - not random, Arya is a major character that needed an opportunity to explore the world and grow accustomed to the violence, she needed someone with a motivation to get her away, but at some point, she also needed to be freed

Oberyn - not random, just tragic, his character is the one who allows the narrative to discuss the Lannister's role in past events, his failure forces Tyrion, a major chararter, to embark on a completely new path, his death awakens a whole host of characters in Dorne who are now openly antagonistic towards the Lannisters

Ygritte - not random, just tragic, Jon, a major character, needs some way to gain experience and understand the Wildlings, the character of Ygritte allows him to do that and return, her death amplifies Jon torn loyalties, between love and duty

Joffrey - so not random, really, Joffrey?

Catelyn - again, not random, demonstrative of the high stakes that are being played, demonstrative of the fragility of allegiances, also sets the remaining children free, forced to make their own way in the world

Each one of these has huge narrative significance. And, to my eyes, it becomes easier and easier to see as the show progresses and we get the fuller picture. As we understand who the true protagonists are.

[Ezee E]

A random death would be the citizen that was pissing in the street and came across The Mountain.

None of those big name characters had anything like that. If anything, all their deaths make sense to me within the narrative and how they died. Once was in a deathmatch! Another in a battle. Catelyn and Joffrey's deaths have been built up for the entire season (or even show). The Hound was basically another deathmatch in terms of how the characters interact.

All five make sense to me within the story here.

In fact, this is part of why I like the show. Too often main characters survive just because they are the main characters.

[Dukefrukem]

My question is whether Jon Snow is susceptible to becoming a White Walker now that he's basically already been "dead."

I would think the opposite.

[Peng]

Holy wall of texts. To be clear, when I posted that, I wasn't complaining, just observing what it feels like. I didn't mean to imply that the showrunners don't know what they are doing. I figure they know from the start. I just feels like compared to earlier seasons, this flows more like a TV show, and it feels like not having to base on actual text frees them up to pave an easier, speedier path for the characters to travel through these preplanned storylines. Again, not a complaint.

[number8]

The Walking Dead does the same thing (and curiously, both these show pulled the "fakeout death" thing recently).

I did think of TWD comparison, but there is one major difference between them that I think allows GOT the ability to kill characters off periodically while maintaining focus, in that the universe introduced a specific goal from the get-go (finding a one true king to fend off the threat from the North) it's building up to that is to be achieved through the politics of assassinations, and despite introducing new characters constantly, it's still a finite pool of allegiances. TWD, on the other hand, is massively open ended and kills characters off for the sole reason of rotating its supporting cast to ensure longevity.

[Grouchy]

What 8 says. The "Game of Thrones" is killing enemies and seize the throne. 'Nuff said.

That article in Vox is profoundly silly. It starts with the premise that the murders and betrayals in the show are wearing old and getting less shocking, and then it reveals that the only reason the author is saying this is because he was, indeed, shocked by the dogs scene. It's the same tepid reasoning as in Roger Ebert's Blue Velvet review - I don't think any writer needs moral justification or permission from the audience for telling a violent story.

What Irish argues about the shocking deaths cutting character arcs short before their time is more interesting, though. I think I agree in Sansa and Joffrey's scenario, and I'd like to point out that the (in)famous rape scene could have easily taken place earlier in King's Landing at that point in the series. I don't think I agree with the Hound's death (as much as I loved that character, it makes sense in Arya's growth as a vengeful spirit) or with Ygritte's (she existed to let Jon Snow know what life was like outside the Watch, not to become his permanent girlfriend; it's a common trope for all kind of pulp heroes to lose their loved ones and stay on their heroic parth) but it's a more interesting perspective than the article's, which is just "oh, dude, this show so is cruel".

[Spinal]

Boy, you're really stuck on that word random, aren't ya?

That's the word you used. I'm happy you're not interested in defending it, because it wasn't at all accurate.

The deaths feel arbitrary because they aren't well supported in the narrative, they're not foreshadowed, and often play for shock value in-scene.

Unfortunately, this isn't accurate either.

Ned: is told outright by Varys while in the cell that he is a dead man, we have experienced a fight on the Kingsroad between the Lannisters and Starks, he have seen Joffrey's cruelty and irrationality, there was a stag antler buried in the dead direwolf in episode 1!

Catelyn: is told outright that Walder Frey is not to be trusted and would willingly kill anyone if the price were right

Joffrey: we see numerous conversations in which we come to understand that the Tyrells are playing the Lannisters with one face while scheming with another

Oberyn: we know his sister has been killed by the Lannisters, we know he is prideful and supremely confidant, we know he is looking for an opportunity for revenge, when one presents itself ... he walks into a death match

Ygritte: the tensions of this relationship are well known from the beginning, they are on warring sides, it would be like being shocked that Romeo and Juliet die

Stannis/Shireen: a classic tragedy with a hubristic man who thinks he is a hero, led down the wrong path by a misplaced faith is his own destiny

The Hound: a warrior who chooses to walk away from a war, a man who has abducted a little girl for profit, a man whose hostage is being tracked down by one of the most gifted and dedicated combatants in the narrative

These things may be shocking when they happen. When you watch them again, understanding the whole, they become inevitable. This is good writing. This is not arbitrary writing.

The main narrative device employed is not selecting arbitrary deaths out of thin air. It's the obfuscation of the true protagonists. In the beginning, you may assume that the protagonists of the main story are Ned, Catelyn, Robb ... In time, it is revealed that they are really Tyrion, Arya, Jon Snow, Bran. But what happens is that characters we understand to be minor in retrospect and treated like major players for the time they appear in the narrative. Again, this is good writing. Not arbitrary.

It is GOOD that when we hear about Ned that we understand the pain these characters went through. It is GOOD that when we hear about the Red Wedding that we were there. But the story is not about the Starks avenging the Lannisters. The story is about the wheel of violence that is playing out while a larger threat from the North is being largely ignored.

Tyrion is needed as a part of this mission. So Joffrey and Oberyn had to die to get him to Essos.
Arya is needed as a part of this mission. So Ned and the Hound had to die to get her to Braavos to receive training.
Jon Snow is needed as a part of this mission. Jeor Mormont had to die to put him in a place of leadership. Did Ygritte have to die? Maybe not. But it is highly demonstrative of Jon's dedication to duty in the face of all other things pulling at him.
Bran is needed as a part of this mission. Would he have left Winterfell if it were not visited by death and suffering? If his family was not shattered?

Edited to add: The main issue I have with GRRM's style is that he tries so hard to subvert convention that he doesn't allow major characters to make important choices.

This is just wildly inaccurate. I don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on this.

Major characters:

Daenerys - Do I support my brother or Khal Drogo? Do I leave with Jorah or do I try to keep Drogo alive? Do play the slaver's game or do I stand up for oppressed people? Do I trust Jorah knowing his whole story or do I send him away?

Jon Snow - Do I rush away to support the war effort or do I stay at Castle Black? Do I return to Castle Black to do my duty or do I follow my love for Ygritte? Do I assassinate Mance Rayder and sacrifice myself or do I find a way to use him and his people for a greater good? Do I accept Stannis' offer of lordship or do I stay at Castle Black to lead the Night's Watch?

Arya - Do I submit to royal authority or do I set off on my own? Do I take the opportunity to accept Brienne's protection or do I find a way to escape? Do I put the Hound out of his misery or do I leave him to die? Do I try to make a new life in Braavos or do I choose to continue difficult training? Do I take the opportunity for revenge or do I let it pass, knowing that I have been asked to kill a man I do not know?

Tyrion - Do I let King's Landing be taken by Stannis or do I find a way to defend the family that despises me? Do I pursue a relationship with Shae or do I send her away knowing it's safer? Do I accept Joffrey's abuse or do I openly rebel? Do I forgive the woman who betrayed me or do I kill her? Do I drink myself to death or do I find a way to serve a new ruler?

And on. And on. And on. The show is filled with these kinds of questions. The show is filled with these kind of decisions and emotional dilemmas. The show is filled with rich, detailed characters. The show is glorious melodrama, in the best sense of the word.

You say death keeps the characters from wrestling with moral issues? That is just not so. How has Jon Snow not wrestled with his conscience and made a choice? Or Daenerys or Jorah or Ned or Littlefinger or Arya or Brienne or Jamie or Cersei? Death sometimes closes doors unexpectedly, but the fallout is always there. The pain remains. The anger remains. And the characters have to do their best with a new path.

[Spinal]

People like to criticize Sansa and her lack of agency. But that argument only works when you view her story in a vacuum. In a show with Daenerys and Arya and Catelyn and Brienne and Yara and Cersei and Margery and Oleanna and Melisandre .... doesn't it make sense that there is one female character that is comparatively passive? That is at sea and lost and watching the world around her like a bad dream? That takes longer to find strength and the courage to act?

[Grouchy]

I think people are just comparatively too accostumed to wish-fulfillment in fiction.

[number8]

They said their outline has had it set to end at 73 hours, with the remaining 13 split between two more seasons. It's HBO that's trying to prolong it. When they came out with that number, HBO immediately released this statement:

Any conversations about the end of Game of Thrones and the number of episodes of future seasons is purely speculative. As is customary, HBO will sit with Dan and David to discuss the details once a decision has been made to go forward with season 7.

[Grouchy]

Uh, no? It makes no sense for a major character to be completely passive (especially in the way that GRRM structures his books, and the way the show mirrors that).

It DOESN'T make sense for Sansa to be passive? How not? She's a princess raised for marriage to a ruler. She doesn't even have Arya's rebellious streak. Even a murder in the dark seems out of her league.

[number8]

FYI, you keep using B&B... Their names are Dan Weiss and David Benioff.