The Match Cut Presidential Dog and Pony Show

[Irish]

I'd be good with Bernie too. But the thing I struggle with is understanding why people would rather let Trump win than to vote against him. Clearly he's worse on so many levels than anyone the Democrats could nominate. Incremental change may not be wholly ideal, but aggressive shifts in the opposite direction via Trump is the full opposite of ideal. Bernie supporters don't like Trump so I can't fathom how they can passively support him by refusing to vote for Democrat X. Seems intensely counterproductive. The teach-the-Democrats-a-lesson tactic is terrible for the country and digs the hole too deep. How you can hate a centrist Democrat more than Trump is mindboggling.

This is the "hold your nose and pull the lever" line that I've literally heard my entire life. I'm not doing it anymore.

Warren and Bloomberg offer nothing for the people on the bottom, so why bother? They'll offer mealy-mouted healthcare that benefits insurance companies more than constituents. They won't offer a living wage. They'll scoff at the idea of free college tuition. They'll do nothing about the prison system. They'll maintain a hard line over immigration. They'll embrace state surveillance and continue Bush's wars and fly Obama's drones. They will fight for corporations and banks and pretend to care about social issues. Did I forget to mention climate change? So will they.

They will do the same things that Trump does, except they'll be slightly more articulate about it and a little less ostentatious and self-aggrandizing. They are the candidates for pearl-clutchers, for people afraid of looking foolish or of having their sensibilities routinely offended. They will absolutely maintain the status quo.

I am so sick of the status quo, because again, the status quo means a majority of the country gets fucked over in ways that matter.

[Lazlo]

This is the "hold your nose and pull the lever" line that I've literally heard my entire life. I'm not doing it anymore.

Warren and Bloomberg offer nothing for the people on the bottom, so why bother? They'll offer mealy-mouted healthcare that benefits insurance companies more than constituents. They won't offer a living wage. They'll scoff at the idea of free college tuition. They'll do nothing about the prison system. They'll maintain a hard line over immigration. They'll embrace state surveillance and continue Bush's wars and fly Obama's drones. They will fight for corporations and banks and pretend to care about social issues. Did I forget to mention climate change? So will they.

They will do the same things that Trump does, except they'll be slightly more articulate about it and a little less ostentatious and self-aggrandizing. They are the candidates for pearl-clutchers, for people afraid of looking foolish or of having their sensibilities routinely offended. They will absolutely maintain the status quo.

I am so sick of the status quo, because again, the status quo means a majority of the country gets fucked over in ways that matter.

Not sure why you're lumping Warren in with Bloomberg. Biden and Buttegieg, sure, but not Warren. Her positions are much further left than the things you're talking about.

Trump does so much worse than any of the Democratic candidates would ever do that it's laughable to say they're the same thing.

I'm not arguing that Bernie would push for big changes and represent a break from the status quo, but Trump is devaluing even the status quo. He's got to be stopped and Bernie-or-bust doesn't do that.

[Irish]

Not sure why you're lumping Warren in with Bloomberg. Biden and Buttegieg, sure, but not Warren. Her positions are much further left than the things you're talking about.

Yeah, but not really. She talks a good game but I don't believe a single thing that comes out of her mouth. Her positions are typical DNC wonkish bullshit --- cancel student debt and support M4A, but only if there are conditions and riders and limits attached. Make everybody jump through hoops and fill out forms for their basic dignity.

She's basically running on "Hope and Change 2," and if the country falls for that again we deserve 4 more years of Trump.

Trump does so much worse than any of the Democratic candidates would ever do that it's laughable to say they're the same thing.

Obama droned the shit out of anybody he could (and with no oversight), fully embraced the surveillance state Bush handed him, balked at closing Gitmo for political reasons, pursued whistleblowers and attempted to prosecute journalists, and deported more people than any other president combined.

Trump is a total buffoon and an awful person but aside from some very terrible statements and embarrassing media gaffes, I'm not sure he's done anything "worse."

They're all shit, really, and I feel like we're arguing over shades of brown.

[Skitch]

I'd rather have any of them than Trump. Literally ANY person that can speak in complete sentences is better.

[Lazlo]

Irish, clearly Trump has done worse things than just "terrible statements and embarrassing media gaffes," but I don't have the energy to hash it all out. If you're cynical enough to see no daylight between the most corrupt, racist, and incompetent president in either of our liftetimes and the field of Democrats, then I don't know what to tell you. I appreciate your passion for Bernie and what he stands for, but man oh man are we in trouble if Trump's reelected.

[Irish]

Irish, clearly Trump has done worse things than just "terrible statements and embarrassing media gaffes," but I don't have the energy to hash it all out. If you're cynical enough to see no daylight between the most corrupt, racist, and incompetent president in either of our liftetimes and the field of Democrats, then I don't know what to tell you. I appreciate your passion for Bernie and what he stands for, but man oh man are we in trouble if Trump's reelected.

The country will be fine. Trump isn't the problem you should worry about. It's Mitch McConnell remaining in office for the rest of his natural life.

Anyway, a buncha US Senators and the Mayors of Southbend, Indiana, and New York, New York, haven't had the power to do anything "worse," so we can't really compare them to Trump.

Past presidents, though? Sure. (Trump sure as hell isn't worse than Nixon, Reagan, or GW Bush.)

[Lazlo]

The country will be fine. Trump isn't the problem you should worry about. It's Mitch McConnell remaining in office for the rest of his natural life.

Anyway, a buncha US Senators and the Mayors of Southbend, Indiana, and New York, New York, haven't had the power to do anything "worse," so we can't really compare them to Trump.

Past presidents, though? Sure. (Trump sure as hell isn't worse than Nixon, Reagan, or GW Bush.)

The country may be "fine" but the people won't. The planet won't. But glad you aren't worried. Must be nice.

I'm worried about it all. McConnell is less effective without Trump sending him judges to appoint, for example, so maybe we ought to take as many bullets out of the Republicans' gun as we can.

"Worse" can be defined however you like, but you know he sucks and needs to go. Voting Democrat is the only way to do that. Whether it's Bernie or not.

[[ETM]]

It's amazing how "the economy is doing great" is still somehow a positive thing, even though almost all of the extra wealth is accumulating off-shore and in the deepest of pockets. Like praising Apple for being a success even though their entire manufacturing base is in China and the billions you guys pay them for their shit every year literally leaves the country for them to sit on.

Sent from my Mi 9 Lite using Tapatalk

[MadMan]

Overall I agree with Irish. Also the Dems tried the whole moderate candidate bit. Since 2000 it has only worked with Obama, and that was because Dubya fucked up things so bad that no GOP candidate stood a chance of winning in 2008. Also Bloomberg reminds me of Trump in terms of also being a shitty rich person. He just sounds better and coats the crappy status quo in nice sound bites. He is also trying to buy the election.

[StuSmallz]

Stu go watch some of the Daily Show interviewing Trump fans. They literally do not care about anything, they just hate democrats and anything resembling left. That's it. They dont care about levels of left, or what anything on left says. All left is communism or socialism to them, both words they dont understand, just that theyve been taught to fear like satan. GOP is a religion, no, a cult.

I know that, and it doesn't matter because you don't need their support to win, and even if you did, it wouldn't be worth sacrificing your princlples to appeal to them; there are far more independent American voters than Republicans, and the majority of them already agree with the Democrats issue-by-issue when it comes to healthcare, gun control, and economic justice, so what you need is a candidate who will motivate the base of the party to actually get out and vote this time (unlike Hillary), while also winning over the indies by aggressively destroying Trump's fake, racism/zenophobia-based populism, and offering them a genuine populist agenda om exchange (a candidate like Bernie, in other words), so stop the endless hand-wringing about how Trump has a base; of course he does, and I'm not scared of them one single bit, and no real Progressive ready to fight for the right thing should be either.

[StuSmallz]

I mean, all you have to do is pay attention to what the Republicans are saying about the Democrats. Trump and the GOP are openly campaigning for Bernie at this point, while eviscerating any moderate (besides Buttigieg) who might gain any traction. Go track Trump's comments -- the guy just tore into Bloomberg, who's been in the race for 10 seconds and has yet utter a negative word about Bernie Sanders.

At this point, they know what the data says: the far left can't win the general and will likely hurt all the down-ticket Democrats as well.

Source: Trump advisers say their ideal Democratic primary scenario is taking shape.

Well, for one thing, Bernie's not actually "far left", and that'd be news to the data (and it's worth nothing that the one poll on that table that has Trump winning is within the margin of error). And, all of that's a distraction for me anyway, because polls never determine who's actually the best candidate, the actual candidate does through their policies and rhetoric, and Bernie is objectively the best, most progressive candidate running, which is why he's worth fighting for, no matter how hard it could be. Some people like to get so hung up on traditional notions of electability that they pretty much completely give up, and that's not the way I want to be; you just know that if CNN existed in 1968, there would be all these "neutral" pundits handwringing, and saying things like "It looks like LBJ signing The Civil Rights Act played a factor in Humphrey's defeat tonight; did they go too far?!" No, of course they didn't, because they did the right thing, regardless of what political repercussions it caused for them, and the world looks back at them as being on the right side of history because of it.

Besides, Trump is already on the record both in public and private (the clip of which I already posted earlier) as saying that he doesn't want to run against Bernie, so I'll take it straight from the horse's ass, so to speak, and the idea that he, a rich simpleton who failed upward through life through the dumbest of lucks, who can't stop running his mouth 24/7, and who never met a petty fight he wouldn't take the bait for, is refusing to attack Bernie because now all of a sudden he's a master political tactician because he's trying to boost Bernie to beat him, is nonsense; I'm also sure that, even though he's pointlessly alienated so many of the country's oldest foreign allies, he's only ever wanted to get along with Russia just because he wants to be friends with them out of the pure goodness of his heart.

[Skitch]

I'm not living in fear of his base, I'm just trying to get across that some of the left candidates (like Bernie) motivate them more than their actual candidate.

[Irish]

The country may be "fine" but the people won't. The planet won't. But glad you aren't worried. Must be nice.

The country survived the Civil War, robber barons, child labor, strikebreakers, Teapot Dome, World War II, Executive Order 9066, HUAC hearings, 1968, Watergate, Iran-Contra, and 9/11.

Somehow. We keep going. I think we'll collectively out last the game show host.

I'm worried about it all. McConnell is less effective without Trump sending him judges to appoint, for example, so maybe we ought to take as many bullets out of the Republicans' gun as we can.

Trump is still in office because of McConnell. He is the sole reason the Supreme Court will remain conservative for another generation. He's completely broken the notion of "checks and balances," because he refuses to do his job and let the Senate do theirs. He's far more dangerous and destructive than any other Republican, including Trump.

Amy McGrath is running for his seat this year. If you think McConnell ruins everything he touches and believe in "blue no matter who," you can donate to her here: https://amymcgrath.com/

"Worse" can be defined however you like

Worse is extending the Vietnam War so you can win an election.

Worse is starting an illegal war in Cambodia, supporting a genocidal regime in the process, and causing the deaths of millions of people.

Worse is instigating a military coup in Chile and supporting a brutal dictatorship, which lead to the deaths of thousands of people.

Worse is running guns to Iran and sending military aide to right wing death squads in Nicaragua.

Worse is preemptively pardoning everyone who ran guns to Iran the very second you get into the Oval Office.

Worse is ignoring genocide in central Africa because it's politically convenient to do so, and allowing half a million people to die despite leading "the most powerful country on Earth."

Worse is using a terrorist attack on US soil to curtail civil liberties.

Worse is lying to Congress and the United Nations in order to invade a country that had nothing to do with said terrorist attacks, leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

Worse is creating a network of torture sites across the globe and enthusiastically using them for years.

Worse is running an extra-legal prison camp for political prisoners in a foreign country, because operating under US law and giving anyone an actual trial would be politically messy.

Worse is creating a huge technical infrastructure to illegally spy on American citizens, and then sorta shrugging when you get caught doing it.

Worse is publicly stating you won't prosecute anyone involved in torture or spying the second you get into office.

Worse is not prosecuting the bankers who laundered hundreds of millions of dollars for South American drug cartels.

Worse is running on a platform of "hope and change" and yet somehow enthusiastically embracing almost every quasi-legal and extra-legal thing your predecessor did.

Worse is not closing that extra-legal prison in a foreign country because it would politically inconvenient to do so.

Worse is bailing out big banks and heavy manufacturers during the 2008 financial crisis, overseeing the biggest transfer of wealth of the last century, and, again, prosecuting no one.

Worse is overseeing the assassination of an American citizen on foreign soil, without oversight and without a trial. Habeus corpus? What's that?

Worse is killing 150 people with drone strikes in Somalia, which isn't a designated US war zone, and absolutely refusing to answer and questions about it from the press under the guise of "national security."

Worse is spending $1 trillion of American money to kill brown people half a world away for nearly 20 years, to no obvious benefit to anyone, and then claiming healthcare, education, and infrastructure just don't have a place in the budget.

Voting Democrat is the only way to do that.

Yeah, again, heard this my entire life. Not doing it anymore. Eventually you'll figur out this attitude allows the Democrats to remain feckless. They know they can nominate duds and still occasionally gain power while doing next to nothing for the people who voted for them.

[MadMan]

Well from my experience the Dems seem to not give a shit if they win elections. They're a pretty sorry excuse for an opposition party. Sure they took back the House but I wonder how much of that was the left giving them a kick in the ass.

[Dukefrukem]

Worse is extending the Vietnam War so you can win an election.

Worse is starting an illegal war in Cambodia, supporting a genocidal regime in the process, and causing the deaths of millions of people.

Worse is instigating a military coup in Chile and supporting a brutal dictatorship, which lead to the deaths of thousands of people.

Worse is running guns to Iran and sending military aide to right wing death squads in Nicaragua.

Worse is preemptively pardoning everyone who ran guns to Iran the very second you get into the Oval Office.

Worse is ignoring genocide in central Africa because it's politically convenient to do so, and allowing half a million people to die despite leading "the most powerful country on Earth."

Worse is using a terrorist attack on US soil to curtail civil liberties.

Worse is lying to Congress and the United Nations in order to invade a country that had nothing to do with said terrorist attacks, leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

Worse is creating a network of torture sites across the globe and enthusiastically using them for years.

Worse is running an extra-legal prison camp for political prisoners in a foreign country, because operating under US law and giving anyone an actual trial would be politically messy.

Worse is creating a huge technical infrastructure to illegally spy on American citizens, and then sorta shrugging when you get caught doing it.

Worse is publicly stating you won't prosecute anyone involved in torture or spying the second you get into office.

Worse is not prosecuting the bankers who laundered hundreds of millions of dollars for South American drug cartels.

Worse is running on a platform of "hope and change" and yet somehow enthusiastically embracing almost every quasi-legal and extra-legal thing your predecessor did.

Worse is not closing that extra-legal prison in a foreign country because it would politically inconvenient to do so.

Worse is bailing out big banks and heavy manufacturers during the 2008 financial crisis, overseeing the biggest transfer of wealth of the last century, and, again, prosecuting no one.

Worse is overseeing the assassination of an American citizen on foreign soil, without oversight and without a trial. Habeus corpus? What's that?

Worse is killing 150 people with drone strikes in Somalia, which isn't a designated US war zone, and absolutely refusing to answer and questions about it from the press under the guise of "national security."

Worse is spending $1 trillion of American money to kill brown people half a world away for nearly 20 years, to no obvious benefit to anyone, and then claiming healthcare, education, and infrastructure just don't have a place in the budget.

Yeah, again, heard this my entire life. Not doing it anymore. Eventually you'll figur out this attitude allows the Democrats to remain feckless. They know they can nominate duds and still occasionally gain power while doing next to nothing for the people who voted for them.

Im' surprised at the lack of responses to this post, kind of like a mic drop from Irish.

Can anyone dispute that Trump has done anything worse than anything on this list? The Trump–Ukraine scandal would be at the bottom, even if he was successfully impeached.

Hard to imagine Guantanamo Bay was a 21st century initiative. It's like we took a step back from progress as a country.

[Skitch]

More need to join me in the Anarchy party. Let's get some real freedom up in hur

[Irish]

Im' surprised at the lack of responses to this post

Curious, what did you expect people to say?

[Dukefrukem]

Curious, what did you expect people to say?

"That makes sense"

[Lazlo]

Some quirk of the "show me new responses" made it so I hadn't seen the post. Yes all those things sucked. I guess we should give up and let Trump win if Bernie isn't the nominee because it's all going to suck anyway. So cynical and childish. There are clear gradients of suck. If Trump doesn't have to face voters again, get ready to really add to your list. The man has been a horrible, corrupt, racist, president who has lessened our influence on the world stage and pushed against climate change initiatives at every turn. I guess you figure he won't do more of that to greater degrees if reelected. Thanks for your assistance.

And yes obviously McConnell is terrible, too.

[Lazlo]

Also, good thing no one died or suffered terrible hardship during the Civil War, robber barons, child labor, strikebreakers, Teapot Dome, World War II, Executive Order 9066, HUAC hearings, 1968, Watergate, Iran-Contra, and 9/11. Guess we should let similar shit just go ahead and happen.

[Dukefrukem]

Guess we should let similar shit just go ahead and happen.

And Trump guarantees all of that to happen? That's a big jump.

[Lazlo]

And Trump guarantees all of that to happen? That's a big jump.

Well, perhaps, but the abuses of power, self-dealing, corruption, hostility to our long-standing alliances, racist immigration policies, caging of children, appointment of young ultra-conservative judges, tax giveaways to corporations that will never benefit the middle or lower classes, etc. are all plenty enough for me to not want to give the man a chance to keep getting worse.

Irish seems cool with risking all that. I'm not. I don't much want to argue because it never goes anywhere. I think Trump is bad, others seem to think he's kinda bad but not enough to definitely need to be defeated. Hard to square that circle for me, but go with god, I guess.

[Irish]

Yes all those things sucked.

1.4 million dead Cambodians definitely ... "sucks"

Yep. That's a totally appropriate and non-sucky word choice.

So cynical and childish.

Reaaaaaaaaaaally, dude?

Also, good thing no one died or suffered terrible hardship during the Civil War, robber barons, child labor, strikebreakers, Teapot Dome, World War II, Executive Order 9066, HUAC hearings, 1968, Watergate, Iran-Contra, and 9/11. Guess we should let similar shit just go ahead and happen.

Citing those events was meant demonstrate that the institutions and the people have survived corrupt, venal, and self-serving presidents before ... & will again.

Well, perhaps, but the abuses of power, self-dealing, corruption, hostility to our long-standing alliances, racist immigration policies, caging of children, appointment of young ultra-conservative judges, tax giveaways to corporations that will never benefit the middle or lower classes, etc. are all plenty enough for me to not want to give the man a chance to keep getting worse.

Laaaaaaaaaawl are you serious? This shit has been happening for the last 50 years and yet somehow it's only an enormous problem now?! Half the things you're describing could neatly fit into recent Democrat and Republican administrations.

And crying about "tax giveaways for corporations" has me howling. Love to see how you justify this shit if Bloomberg is the nominee. It'll be sad but also very, very funny.

[Irish]

Meanwhile ...

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[transmogrifier]

Fuck I'm glad I don't have to put up with your shit political system. It would be maddening.