The Match Cut Presidential Dog and Pony Show

[Melville]

From a South American perspective, I'd like to point out that I don't think the perception of US leaders has ever been positive, at least among my own personal bubble of people. It's why it irks me to see Obama show up as a cool dude in shows like Between Two Ferns or Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee - no matter how charismatic or well spoken, the guy's term in office as far as foreign policy was concerned was still the same old shit and war crimes. I realize it must have been more progressive towards Americans, specially with Obamacare, but the rest of the world has always hated the American empire as a concept. Trump just makes it more obvious.

I think 8's right that views depend a lot on which region you're talking about. I'd guess that the US's history in South and Central America probably makes it particularly unpopular there. But in my experience, as a Canadian living in Europe and interacting primarily with Europeans, while the Canadians' and Europeans' view of American foreign policy is certainly largely negative (and they often obnoxiously look down on America in general), most people seem to have liked Obama's foreign policy a whole lot more than Bush's. And they definitely don't view Trump as just one more in a line of deplorable presidents.

I also think, for all the horrible things Obama did with drones and spying, it's unfair to identify him with "the same old shit" as Bush and Trump. I doubt the modern crop of Republicans would have normalized relations with Cuba or signed a deal with Iran, and Obama didn't start any wars on the scale of Iraq. Sure, it's a matter of degrees, but those degrees make a big difference.

[transmogrifier]

Xenophobia is a huge factor that is difficult to overcome. In New Zealand, Chinese immigration and investors are often identified as the reason for the ridiculously high house prices in Auckland. But when I worked at a high school there, five of my colleagues in my department were from the U.K. All had bought houses in Auckland... but no-one ever tries to use British immigration as a dog whistle...

[Melville]

I don't think there's good data, but there is a lot of joblessness out there, and IIRC, the overall loss has been due to automation (~85%) and outsourcing (~15%). Those numbers may be off, but immigration isn't a significant factor. It's not like immigrants aren't also customers.

Also, according to the most recent stats I saw, more Mexicans have been leaving America than entering it recently. And America's overall immigration rate is similar to other Western countries. Trump's mania for hating immigrants is entirely xenophobic, not driven by any realistic concerns about immigrants driving down wages or putting stress on public services.

[Melville]

Xenophobia is a huge factor that is difficult to overcome. In New Zealand, Chinese immigration and investors are often identified as the reason for the ridiculously high house prices in Auckland. But when I worked at a high school there, five of my colleagues in my department were from the U.K. All had bought houses in Auckland... but no-one ever tries to use British immigration as a dog whistle...

When I moved to the UK, one of the first people I spoke to promptly started telling me about the immigration problem. Of course, she said, it's immigrants of a certain race that are the problem, not nice immigrants like me.

[Grouchy]

Yes, I should clarify I was talking about South America in general and Argentina in particular.

The problem with xenophobia, I think, is that poor people actually engage in it and rich, more educated people use it for their own benefit. It's like that Chris Rock punchline. "Who's more racist, white people or black people? Black people, 'cause we hate black people too!" It's easier to blame your neighbor who's even slightly browner-skinned than you for your hardships than the big business that serve you food and increase your taxes.

When I moved to the UK, one of the first people I spoke to promptly started telling me about the immigration problem. Of course, she said, it's immigrants of a certain race that are the problem, not nice immigrants like me.

Hahahah I've heard so many conversations like that. My girlfriend is Bolivian and blond with curly hair and she's constantly being told that she "doesn't look Bolivian", always framed as if it were a compliment. Even a Chinese guy at the supermarket told her the other day that she was too pretty to be from Bolivia.

[number8]

As a legal immigrant I really resent being used as an example of "doing it the right way" and that undocumented immigrants diminish my experience. I pissed off someone once by saying I don't give a shit.

[Skitch]

I used to be a lot more against illegal immigration until I saw poverty first hand. After that I felt, "Who am I to judge how anyone escapes such poverty?" Especially if you have kids to protect.

[Irish]

I also think, for all the horrible things Obama did with drones and spying, it's unfair to identify him with "the same old shit" as Bush and Trump. I doubt the modern crop of Republicans would have normalized relations with Cuba or signed a deal with Iran, and Obama didn't start any wars on the scale of Iraq. Sure, it's a matter of degrees, but those degrees make a big difference.

Obama was far worse than Bush.

Bush created policies that were patently illegal and unconstitutional. Obama then took those policies and institutionalized them. This is the "constitutional scholar" who prosecuted journalists and their sources, maintained a suspension of habeus corpus, ordered the execution of American citizens without oversight, sold weapons and materials to Saudi Arabia so they, in turn, could flatten Yemen, and signed waivers to sell guns to African warlords.

And now he's handed off his nasty little machine to Trump.

If a Republican president had done half the seedy shit Obama pulled, establishment liberals would have screamed bloody murder. Instead, they said nothing, largely because the guy was good on camera.

[Dead & Messed Up]

If a Republican president had done half the seedy shit Obama pulled, establishment liberals would have screamed bloody murder. Instead, they said nothing, largely because the guy was good on camera.

I don't think it was largely because he was good on camera, although there's a fair amount of people I know who were... let's say "infatuated" with the former CIC. I think it had a lot to do with the fact that he didn't sabre-rattle or present his policies as some sort of righteous corrective in a gigantic war on an abstract concept. It's easier to criticize a leader when they're being melodramatic about their militarism and might, putting it front and center. It's your call on whether or not Obama's method is more insidious and/or destructive than Dubya or (presumably) Trump, both of whom were more blunt and disruptive in their war-hero self-mythologizing.

[Ezee E]

Good point D&MU.

All of trump's social issues (and even most of his reform ) i care very little about. If the republicans had a good answer for the Affordable Care Act, I'd love to hear it. But they have nothing.

Do people really care about immigration outside of California? Do we even have good data that shows this is a problem? Are Americans so lazy to go out and look for jobs we blame immigrants??

As someone that does work in Arizona and New Mexico, they absolutely care about ILLEGAL immigration. Especially from what I've overheard in Tucson.

[Dukefrukem]

I don't think there's good data, but there is a lot of joblessness out there, and IIRC, the overall loss has been due to automation (~85%) and outsourcing (~15%). Those numbers may be off, but immigration isn't a significant factor. It's not like immigrants aren't also customers.

I think that perception is a combination of very real job loss in rural areas due to de-industrialization and automation, coupled with a concurrent rise in local non-whites (dominantly Latinos), so the two things seem to be tethered together psychologically. "Things were better before they came here" is a true statement for a lot of rural Americans. It's taking that statement beyond its correlation that runs you into trouble.

Agreed! There's a lot of unemployment because people are disgruntled and give up looking for a job when they come to the realization that they are unqualified for today’s jobs. Or they'll declare a disability which will qualify them for a new set of benefits.

[Dukefrukem]

As someone that does work in Arizona and New Mexico, they absolutely care about ILLEGAL immigration. Especially from what I've overheard in Tucson.

So three states? That's what got Trump elected?

[number8]

One of the more interesting research I saw (though I don't remember where so someone else can verify this) is that there are numerous sectors where job availability outweighs the demand, and it's because of gender roles. People perceive the job market as scarce because things like factory and mining jobs are dwindling, but traditionally female-filled jobs in healthcare, office assistant/admin, and cosmetics have actually been steadily on the rise in the past few years. This is causing the number of women in the workforce to rise, but really, if you're a dude who can't get a job, it's worth asking yourself also if you've been closing yourself off to jobs that are available simply because you perceive it to be too feminine for you.

[Irish]

[...] but really, if you're a dude who can't get a job, it's worth asking yourself also if you've been closing yourself off to jobs that are available simply because you perceive it to be too feminine for you.

This viewpoint assumes employers would be willing to hire a man for those jobs. Largely, they wouldn't.

[number8]

This viewpoint assumes employers would be willing to hire a man for those jobs. Largely, they wouldn't.

Great point. I should've said that the onus goes both ways, to take advantage of the opportunity that's there.

(Although I guess my larger point was more to lament the fact that when people talk about "jobs" on the macro level, whether it's up or down, it tends to be limited to traditionally masculine jobs.)

[Ezee E]

So three states? That's what got Trump elected?

No. And I don't work everywhere, just speaking on my own observations in states.

[Ezee E]

Kind of funny when the President calls out the company you work for.

[number8]

This has been a doozy of a day.

[Dead & Messed Up]

This has been a doozy of a day.

Flynn debacle or something more?

Not that Flynn wouldn't be sufficient.

[number8]

Well, his resignation is the 11th hour (LITERALLY!) climax of a whole day of insane National Security news. Flynn's debacle, but also the reports of Trump openly discussing and showing classified materials in front of his Mar-a-lago members. This morning I thought random rich assholes being allowed to take selfies with the nuclear football would be the craziest story of the day. How the hell did the day got weirder?

[Irish]

How the hell did the day got weirder?

And Disney fired PewDiePie for posting anti-semitic videos!

[Russ]

This Twitter account is genius:

https://mobile.twitter.com/PresVillain

[ledfloyd]

As a journalist, I'm honestly concerned someone is going to use his rhetoric as an excuse to bomb a newsroom.

[ledfloyd]

As a legal immigrant I really resent being used as an example of "doing it the right way" and that undocumented immigrants diminish my experience. I pissed off someone once by saying I don't give a shit.

I'm currently working on a story talking to some local immigrants about the process. So far what I'm getting is that it's an expensive, arduous, dehumanizing process, which I don't think is captured in the political debates telling people to get in a non-existant line or whatever. Which is kind of the point, to put a local, human face on this abstract issue of people "pouring into our country." To find out what people's experiences with it actually are.

But I am kind of concerned that it will reinforce that same argument.

I talked to a woman yesterday that hasn't been home to see her family during the five years she was going through the green card process. Now her lawyer is telling her she shouldn't leave the country. She told me she just wants to go see her grandmother before she dies. She's not even from one of the seven countries in Trump's ban.

[Dead & Messed Up]

As a journalist, I'm honestly concerned someone is going to use his rhetoric as an excuse to bomb a newsroom.

As a non-journalist, I'm worried about the same thing.

I knew this presidency would be bad, but it's like Trump cranked the Falcon's lightspeed stick.