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Thread: Game of Thrones (Season 5)

  1. #51
    Kung Fu Hippie Watashi's Avatar
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  2. #52
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    That's one of those episodes where you immediately start watching the next one if you were able to... Dammit!

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  3. #53
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Gah. How is there no discussion?

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  4. #54
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Good episode.
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  5. #55
    Supporting Actor slqrick's Avatar
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    Horrifying, repugnant shit. Totally unnecessary for the story.

  6. #56
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting slqrick (view post)
    Horrifying, repugnant shit. Totally unnecessary for the story.
    ...other than that. Yeh I was taken back a bit. I actually had forgotten about the end because I made myself forget. To end an episode on that note is tough. Then it goes right into Silicon Valley. Yeesh.
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  7. #57
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Not sure why there's so much criticism on that final scene considering it's not at all surprising from Ramsay.

    The whole final half hour was certainly uncomfortable but well executed. Who knew there would be a character more hated that Joffrey?

    Also, Eko Adebisi is the one thing to cheer about, even if his way of being dissuaded by Lannister wasn't very convincing (albeit hilarious).

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  8. #58
    Screenwriter Lazlo's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Ezee E (view post)
    Not sure why there's so much criticism on that final scene considering it's not at all surprising from Ramsay.

    The whole final half hour was certainly uncomfortable but well executed. Who knew there would be a character more hated that Joffrey?

    Also, Eko Adebisi is the one thing to cheer about, even if his way of being dissuaded by Lannister wasn't very convincing (albeit hilarious).
    That "cock merchant" line was hilarious.

    Arya's trip to the face vault wowed me. Just beautiful.

    I think the final scene's worth will heavily depend on the payoff. Will Sansa be dealing with the emotional repercussions of the rape for the rest of the season or will its impact be misunderstood and mishandled by Benioff and Weiss just like they failed to understand and pay off Daenerys' and Cersei's assaults?
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  9. #59
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    I don't really get it. People expected a sadist like Ramsay to be a loving husband on his wedding night? It's a tough scene, sure, but completely in line with the show.

    Arya's story is fascinating. I can't wait to see where that leads. And what was what we were saying, 8? Cersei's revenge didn't take long.

  10. #60
    Second star to the right [ETM]'s Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    completely in line with the show.
    That's just it. They invented it, could have done it a number of ways and still be completely in line with the books, yet they went with rape. Again.

  11. #61
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting [ETM] (view post)
    That's just it. They invented it, could have done it a number of ways and still be completely in line with the books, yet they went with rape. Again.
    Well, I haven't read the books so I don't know what becomes of Sansa in them.

    In the TV show... I don't see the problem. Ramsay has already been established as a sexual sadist and a psychopath.

  12. #62
    I don't know why they couldn't still kill Tyrion but not cut his dick off. Then deliver the body to the cock merchant with the cock intact, let him cut the dick off himself to prove it came from an actual dwarf. Poof. Problem solved.

  13. #63
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    I cannot deny that it is utterly comical that the show had three major characters violently raped when they weren't in the books. It's not even about faithfulness, because I'm loving a lot of the changes. It just comes across as a writing crutch.

    "We need a turning point for this female character."
    "What do we do?"
    "Let's have her raped."
    "Ooh, drama!"

    Also, hearing people say "That's just how it was for women in the Middle Ages" about made up fantasy worlds is seriously one of my biggest pet peeves, so on a personal level, I hate rape scenes in fantasy works because I'm bound to hear that line come out of some dumb fucking mouthbreather's mouth.
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    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  14. #64
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    Whatever, I'm all about Cersei this episode. Hilarious exchange with Littlefinger.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  15. #65
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Didn't the Cersei one happen in the book? That one I can understand being out of line. It came out of nowhere and hasn't been addressed since. I even think the creators mentioned that they didn't think it was rape, I thought.

    It would be criminal to ignore Sansa's. It was clearly the hitting point of the episode.

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  16. #66
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    No, Jamie did not rape Cersei in the books.
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  17. #67
    Evil mind, evil sword. Ivan Drago's Avatar
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    Sansa's always been one of my favorite characters in the show, so I can't say it didn't affect me. At the same time, I can't help but play devil's advocate and think it's Benioff/Weiss's equivalent to Orci/Kurtzman's magic blood.

    Very good episode, otherwise. Loved the scene where Arya goes into the giant chamber.
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  18. #68
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    No, Jamie did not rape Cersei in the books.
    Not that it really matters.

    It is kind of funny reading tweets about the anger being about it simply not being in the books rather then the act itself.

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  19. #69
    Man, I just have to say it.

    That scene was unforgivable. And to drop it in as a blatant episode cliffhanger? I've had issues with the writing on this show for a while, but this really puts it in a new light for me. I don't know that I'll ever hold these guys in much regard at this point, and, believe me, that was starting to wane long before this episode. They are tapped dry of ideas for how to make this show work on TV.

    I mean, formulate your defenses or whatever. But we already knew Ramsay is the worst kind of human being and that Sansa's life was shit. The scene revealed nothing and certainly feels like an unnecessary piece of repugnance used purely for end-of-episode shock value and emotional manipulation. The real topper was that the final frames focused entirely on the reactions of a side character who has been rendered utterly useless. As if pointing out that Theon has been pushed to the brink is somehow new. I certainly hope, for their sake, that giving a throwaway male character a turning-point wasn't the sole point of this ugliness.
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  20. #70
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting DavidSeven (view post)
    Man, I just have to say it.

    That scene was unforgivable. And to drop it in as a blatant episode cliffhanger? I've had issues with the writing on this show for a while, but this really puts it in a new light for me. I don't know that I'll ever hold these guys in much regard at this point, and, believe me, that was starting to wane long before this episode. They are tapped dry of ideas for how to make this show work on TV.

    I mean, formulate your defenses or whatever. But we already knew Ramsay is the worst kind of human being and that Sansa's life was shit. The scene revealed nothing and certainly feels like an unnecessary piece of repugnance used purely for end-of-episode shock value and emotional manipulation. The real topper was that the final frames focused entirely on the reactions of a side character who has been rendered utterly useless. As if pointing out that Theon has been pushed to the brink is somehow new. I certainly hope, for their sake, that giving a throwaway male character a turning-point wasn't the sole point of this ugliness.
    The only thing I can think of, is Sansa is going to come out of this more powerful than we could possibly imagine.
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  21. #71
    Montage, s'il vous plait? Raiders's Avatar
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    Is rape worse than murder? I only ask, because if he had killed her right there, would we be saying the same? Rape, or sexual predator behavior, is very clearly a weapon used in this kingdom. Ramsay does do raping in the books, if we want to take that angle, but it isn't Sansa he marries. He always looks to exert immediately his dominance over his captives, and he definitely views his wife as a captive.

    I mean, they've murdered babies on this show. I'm not sure why Sansa having her husband force himself on her is the tipping point. It's all disgusting. Are we not allowed to script ugliness anymore? Does this moment not have a lasting impact every time we see Sansa going forward? Would Ramsay telling us he did it be the same?

    The Cersei-Jaime thing was like, 100 times worse to me.
    Last edited by Raiders; 05-19-2015 at 12:16 PM.
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  22. #72
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    I don't think the issue is the actual act, but the "her too?" nature of it that I found almost comical. I'm also willing to wait to see how it plays out, but I found it especially tiresome that the camera stayed on Theon's face and ended on it, as if to imply that he will be the character most affected by the act. Like Sansa was a prop in the conflict between the two, which is especially deflating since they were just starting to set her up as having something to do instead of just being carted from one castle to another getting terrible shit to happen to her before being rescued by someone else. All the other victims on the show (Tyrion, for example, whose main plot trait is also being repeatedly imprisoned and threatened because of his biology) seem to have more of defense mechanism in place, as we saw again this episode in its best scene.

    On a more general note, I have always held the opinion that depictions of rape in media ought to be a little more thoughtful than depictions of murder, partly because it's not an ending for the character and you better have something in mind for them after that, and partly because I don't imagine there are millions of murder victims out there watching movies and television. There's also the fact that depictions of murder tend to be more gender-neutral, but I guess that's a whole nother can of worms.
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    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  23. #73
    Montage, s'il vous plait? Raiders's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting number8 (view post)
    I don't think the issue is the actual act, but the "her too?" nature of it that I found almost comical. I'm also willing to wait to see how it plays out, but I found it especially tiresome that the camera stayed on Theon's face and ended on it, as if to imply that he will be the character most affected by the act. Like Sansa was a prop in the conflict between the two, which is especially deflating since they were just starting to set her up as having something to do instead of just being carted from one castle to another getting terrible shit to happen to her before being rescued by someone else. All the other victims on the show (Tyrion, for example, whose main plot trait is also being repeatedly imprisoned and threatened because of his biology) seem to have more of defense mechanism in place, as we saw again this episode in its best scene.
    It's definitely true that something needs to be made of this, but I think it still sets up to have a lasting impact regardless of whether it is directly mentioned again. I do definitely agree that only focusing on Theon was a mistake. I get it, but it's a bizarre way to compartmentalize the trauma.

    On a more general note, I have always held the opinion that depictions of rape in media ought to be a little more thoughtful than depictions of murder, partly because it's not an ending for the character and you better have something in mind for them after that, and partly because I don't imagine there are millions of murder victims out there watching movies and television. There's also the fact that depictions of murder tend to be more gender-neutral, but I guess that's a whole nother can of worms.
    Well, the true lasting victims of murder aren't those killed, but you're right in any case. It is a more sensitive matter, though a lot of this outrage doesn't seem to be concerned about rape victims watching the show but rather that the creators have yet again resorted to this means of violence and against an already downtrodden character. I don't take so much issue with that myself. It felt like a rather logical outcome to her bad situation, one I think she herself would not have been unable to see coming, however horrific that actually is.
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  24. #74
    I think the perceived female-specific nature of the victimization is certainly a part of it. But I also think people's gut feeling on the perceived brutality or ugliness of the act itself plays a factor (particular in light of Sansa's age, circumstances, etc.), and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. I mean, not all murder is equal either. For example, Ramsay ordering Sansa to die by guillotine or nudging her through a hole in floor may not elicit the same response as having her violently tortured to death (which I am quite sure would have also elicited a very negative audience reaction). The audience is going to react to the brutality that's shown or strongly implied based on the extent to which they feel it's necessary for the story. Even people who aren't consciously watching TV with these things in mind have a sense for it when it pops up. I think the avalanche of criticism that the show is receiving now is indicative of their mis-assessment of the audience's sensitivities. I don't think people are necessarily taking a black/white stance on the depiction of that type of act itself (though that may be how they're verbalizing now), but more so reacting off what they are consciously or unconsciously perceiving as a very ugly scene of brutality that feels unnecessary to the narrative. I'm sure there are other types of acts that likely would've elicited similar outrage if put within the right context.

    Personally, I am someone who has a hard time with the Ramsay stuff since the beginning, even when it was targeted solely at Theon. The prolonged torture of Theon is right there as one of my least favorite aspects of this show, so I don't know that this last scene was a "tipping point" moment for me. Just another example of a show highlighting ugly brutality that I don't find terribly compelling, interesting or particularly well thought out. And yes, perhaps within this specific set of circumstances that outcome for Sansa was inevitable; however, the writers control the circumstances too, so I can't see that as a justification.
    Last edited by DavidSeven; 05-19-2015 at 05:18 PM.
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  25. #75
    Whole Sick Crew Benny Profane's Avatar
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    I really thought Sansa was gonna have a shiv or something up her sleeve as she started undressing. Or that Reek was gonna snap out of it and start slashing throats. Anyway, it was the last scene. How can we know if it will be used for plot development or not yet? We'll find out soon if it was gratuitous or not.

    The sand snakes sure were a letdown. The whole Dorne story has been one embarrassment after another this season. Really came to a head last night how cheesy that plotline has been. But it was cute that Jaime and his wisecracking sidekick got to play dress-up.

    I think we've sat through enough gentle corpse cleansings this season. Time to get Arya's story going quickly. At least the sets are incredible looking.

    Overall this season seems aimless and slow.
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