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Thread: Black Mirror

  1. #101
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    They definitely meant the former. [
    ]
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  2. #102
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Eh, she could be furious because the mother was giving her medicine without her knowledge.

  3. #103
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    I'm trying to be generous here, [
    ]
    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  4. #104
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    [
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  5. #105
    Bark! Go away Russ's Avatar
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    All of a sudden, the Arkangel episode is even more interesting; think a 2nd viewing is in order.
    "We eventually managed to find them near Biskupin, where demonstrations of prehistoric farming are organized. These oxen couldn't be transported to anywhere else, so we had to built the entire studio around them. A scene that lasted twenty-something seconds took us a year and a half to prepare."

  6. #106
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    Surprised but also not. The first episode misrepresents DNA and the last repeats that old saw about "unused" parts of our brains.

    This is a science fiction show that doesn't care about science.

  7. #107
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    Can't believe this is being debated because it definitely has to be the former,[
    ]
    Midnight Run (1988) - 9
    The Smiling Lieutenant (1931) - 8.5
    The Adventures of Robinhood (1938) - 8
    Sisters (1973) - 6.5
    Shin Godzilla (2016) - 7.5

  8. #108
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Peng (view post)
    Can't believe this is being debated because it definitely has to be the former,[
    ]
    Do you mean outside of MC? I don't feel we're really debating it, just saying what we initially thought it was.

  9. #109
    Hodge shan't be shot Kirby Avondale's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Yeaaaaah. I dunno about that. I couldn't tell what they were really going for. The opening was a superficial parody of "Star Trek," but the ending uses worn-out genre tropes to become a typical chase/thriller. The episode becomes what it criticizes and does it for entertainment value.
    [
    ]

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    And [
    ]
    [
    ]

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I couldn't take it as a jab at gaming, either, because what happens is more or less a dramatic variation on what people did while playing "The Sims," which predates the obsessiveness found in GamerGate and 4chan. I'm not sure what insight Brooker thinks he has, or if he has any at all. (Really, the script boils down to an 80 minute riff on Penny Arcade's "Dickwolves" comic strip from 2013.)
    People fucking with their Sims aren't the target of the episode. I'm sure Brooker understands that there are plenty of people who've fucked with their Sims but don't harbor toxic sentiments in real life. Gamergaters do and Robert fits the profile.

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    I was disappointed that the writers studiously avoided the main question---whether simulated people in a simulated world are "real" enough to matter. They take the answer on faith, as obvious, and then write characters who dismiss themselves as artificial. So that point seemed muddled to me too.
    Some people claim that free will is a complete illusion and then continue to go about their lives as if that isn't the case. If these digital people make an offhand comment or two about not being real, but otherwise don't practice what they preach, I'm fine living out the ambiguity with them. I consider the social dynamics of the episode more of the focus.

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    (Also, as a general criticism and in a fit of super-nerdiness I need to point out that if I made a digital copy of someone's DNA to reproduce them on a fucked up Holodeck that wouldn't include their memories and identity.)
    The premise is obviously outlandish, but as far as self-consistency goes, it seemed like the point of keeping their identities was purely sadistic.

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    (Also, in another sort of fit, stealing the fucking lolipop would have done nothing because the DNA was digitized, which means the potential for millions of copies of that little boy, tucked away on servers all over the world.)
    I mean, if he made copies. Presumably if he kept the lollipop, it's because he didn't. But I'm in more of a Hitchcock mode with an episode like this regardless. Doesn't really matter to me if all the little loose ends tie up into a nice bow or not if the larger emotional and narrative picture hangs together for me.
    Last edited by Kirby Avondale; 01-06-2018 at 05:07 PM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Quoting Kirby Avondale (view post)
    [
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    Sure, but why be subversive in the dialogue and then so rote in the execution?

    Quote Quoting Kirby Avondale (view post)
    [
    ]
    Except the villain never expresses anything to anyone outside of his fantasy. [
    ]

    As for bad fans---eh. I think SNL (Shatner yelling "Get a life!" at Jon Lovitz) and The Simpsons (Poochy, et al) had more pointed criticisms of fan culture than this episode does.

    The premise is obviously outlandish, but as far as self-consistency goes, it seemed like the point of keeping their identities was purely sadistic.
    It was a nitpicky complaint, but I'm pretty sure there was a way to get to where they wanted to go without ignoring grade-school level science. So the choice struck me as lazy.

    Quote Quoting Kirby Avondale (view post)
    I mean, if he made copies. Presumably if he kept the lollipop, it's because he didn't. But I'm in more of a Hitchcock mode with an episode like this regardless. Doesn't really matter to me if all the little loose ends tie up into a nice bow or not if the larger emotional and narrative picture hangs together for me.
    The writers cared so little for their setting they created a bunch of engineers who don't even acknowledge the potential for a million copies, or local backups, or remote servers, or anything having to do with computers at all. Instead, the plot runs them through a standard heist conceit. I thought it was silly because anybody who's ever selected "copy" then "paste" from a dropdown menu shoulda been like, "Waaaaaaaait a sec."

    Hitchcock got away with his absurdities because of his supreme technical chops. Brooker isn't playing at that level so I can't suspend my disbelief as easily.
    Last edited by Irish; 01-06-2018 at 09:20 PM.

  11. #111
    Hodge shan't be shot Kirby Avondale's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Sure, but why be subversive in the dialogue and then so rote in the execution?
    I think it's more than the dialogue. I think it was in the whole set-up and the subtext I was talking about. If we want to take the subversion further, we need only consider our condescending laughs at the first scene of the show played out as vintage camp, and then reflect on ourselves experiencing almost the same set-up, astroid belt and all, as it plays itself out at the end, and we're all in. (Well, not you, but me and a lot of other people.) And if we wanted, we could say that humanity doesn't escape the feedback loop of fantasies, but carries them on in different ways.

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Except the villain never expresses anything to anyone outside of his fantasy. [
    ]
    [
    ]

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    As for bad fans---eh. I think SNL (Shatner yelling "Get a life!" at Jon Lovitz) and The Simpsons (Poochy, et al) had more pointed criticisms of fan culture than this episode does.
    I don't see what's so pointed about "Get a life!" but oh well. I don't think any of the examples you've mentioned so far really dig into the sinister side like this episode did.

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    It was a nitpicky complaint, but I'm pretty sure there was a way to get to where they wanted to go without ignoring grade-school level science. So the choice struck me as lazy.
    Despite a lot of work to make the tech feel real and lived-in, I look at Black Mirror a lot like I look at The Twilight Zone. The central conceit is ridiculous after you scratch the surface, an excuse for talking about other things or creating general dramatic tensions to work through, and details are purposefully waved away.

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    The writers cared so little for their setting they created a bunch of engineers who don't even acknowledge the potential for a million copies, or local backups, or remote servers, or anything having to do with computers at all. Instead, the plot runs them through a standard heist conceit. I thought it was silly because anybody who's ever selected "copy" then "paste" from a dropdown menu shoulda been like, "Waaaaaaaait a sec."
    I thought only two of them were really engineers. Sure, Brooker could've wrote in some aside to wave away this concern, but not a lot is riding on that for me. He could've telegraphed in some other way that backup copies were kept on a specific hard drive, that there was something stopping him from uploading copies to the cloud, etc., but at bottom it all still would've rested on the fairy tale logic of being told take one thing as something else, given a few simple rules of the game and then rolling with it. "Just push a button - like, literally, any button..."

    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    Hitchcock got away with his absurdities because of his supreme technical chops. Brooker isn't playing at that level so I can't suspend my disbelief as easily.
    If Hitch directed the episode, would you have brooked these flaws?

  12. #112
    Piss off, ghost! number8's Avatar
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    Right on time.

    Quote Quoting Donald Glover
    I was actually just reading about Matt Damon and he’s like, ‘There’s a culture of outrage.’ I’m like, ‘Well, they have a reason to be outraged.’ I think it’s a lot of dudes just being scared. They’re like, ‘What if I did something and I didn’t realize it?’ I’m like, ‘Deal with it.’
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  13. #113
    Bark! Go away Russ's Avatar
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    Ranking S4:

    1. Metalhead
    2. Hang the DJ
    3. USS Callister
    ...
    4. Black Museum
    5. Crocodile
    ...
    6. Arkangel

    Kind of surprised that Metalhead was (imo) this season's Best in Show; but then again, that Boston Dynamics shit has always been my ultimate nightmare fuel. Reminded me somewhat of Spielberg's Duel (ie, the tension of a chase unaided by expository backstory), it played like a truly classic Twilight Zone episode.

    Possibly strongest season yet, but Booker does seem to be recycling a lot of ideas.
    Last edited by Russ; 01-19-2018 at 12:31 AM.
    "We eventually managed to find them near Biskupin, where demonstrations of prehistoric farming are organized. These oxen couldn't be transported to anywhere else, so we had to built the entire studio around them. A scene that lasted twenty-something seconds took us a year and a half to prepare."

  14. #114
    All Black Mirror episodes ranked:

    1.White Christmas (Special)
    2. White Bear (S2)
    3. USS Callister (S4)
    4. The Entire History of You (S1)
    5. The National Anthem (S1)
    6. Be Right Back (S2)
    7. San Junipero (S3)
    8. Metalhead (S4)
    9. Men Against Fire (S3)
    10. Fifteen Million Merits (S1)
    11. Shut Up and Dance (S3)
    12. Hang the DJ (S4)
    13. Black Museum (S4)
    14. Playtest (S3)
    15. Hated in the Nation (S3)
    16. Nosedive (S3)
    17. Crocodile (S4)
    18. Arkangel (S4)
    19. The Waldo Moment (S2)
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    Run
    (2020) 64
    The Whistlers
    (2019
    ) 55
    Pawn (2020) 62
    Matilda (1996) 37
    The Town that Dreaded Sundown
    (1976) 61
    Moby Dick (2011) 50

    Soul
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    Heroic Duo
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    A Moment of Romance (1990) 61
    As Tears Go By (1988) 65

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  15. #115
    Super Moderator dreamdead's Avatar
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    I have an essay on Black Mirror's episode "White Bear" contracted with an academic book collection that's analyzing every episode of the series, and I have the ability to include two images. I have mine chosen, but does anyone have mad resolution skills to make the images as high-res as possible for the editor? If so, please private message me your email and I'll send over the two images.
    The Boat People - 9
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  16. #116
    Am I the only one with no interest whatsoever in "choose your own adventure" movies and TV shows? The very thought of it just frustrates me. I'll wait for "Bandersnatch" to be re-edited into a proper form.
    Last 10 Movies Seen
    (90+ = canonical, 80-89 = brilliant, 70-79 = strongly recommended, 60-69 = good, 50-59 = mixed, 40-49 = below average with some good points, 30-39 = poor, 20-29 = bad, 10-19 = terrible, 0-9 = soul-crushingly inept in every way)

    Run
    (2020) 64
    The Whistlers
    (2019
    ) 55
    Pawn (2020) 62
    Matilda (1996) 37
    The Town that Dreaded Sundown
    (1976) 61
    Moby Dick (2011) 50

    Soul
    (2020) 64

    Heroic Duo
    (2003) 55
    A Moment of Romance (1990) 61
    As Tears Go By (1988) 65

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  17. #117
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    I find it a curiosity at best. But as someone who has watched Black Mirror, I will wait to see if the masses are sucked into the Borg collective by this venture before risking my peepers on it.

  18. #118
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    I would probably watch it through one time with my own choices then read about the rest (both graph and article).
    Midnight Run (1988) - 9
    The Smiling Lieutenant (1931) - 8.5
    The Adventures of Robinhood (1938) - 8
    Sisters (1973) - 6.5
    Shin Godzilla (2016) - 7.5

  19. #119
    In the belly of a whale Henry Gale's Avatar
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    Oh I watched/played/navigated it for about two hours once it posted and thought it was great. And then after I felt I had exhausted most of the big options as well as my general stamina for it for one night, I decided to watch the trailer and realize there was a lot of footage I hadn't even cracked in my ventures.

    So not just as a feat of making something that's essentially video game dynamics working so nicely in polished narrative film/TV, or even just how many legitimately different paths they committed to writing and producing, but I thought the experience was as engaging as it was because of just how much of its central gimmick it immersed into the actual mechanics of its storytelling and themes. That results in some directions that go from uneasily sinister to then knowingly goofy in ways of doubling down on its self-awareness to hilarious branches of ideas. But then again, that may have just been in the version(s) I got, which I know I got myself to at least two very unique conclusions, with at least three of four significant variations within one of them.

    So in the end, I don't think there's really a "correct" version to cut together, especially since the more you get through it, the more you realize just how much your participation in the guiding of it is a vital component of its story.
    Last edited by Henry Gale; 12-29-2018 at 10:12 AM.
    Last 11 things I really enjoyed:

    Speed Racer (Wachowski/Wachowski, 2008)
    Safe (Haynes, 1995)
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    Bad Trip (Sakurai, 2020)
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    Diva (Beineix, 1981)
    Delicatessen (Caro/Jeunet, 1991)
    The Hunger (Scott, 1983)
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    Chungking Express (Wong, 1994)

  20. #120
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    I have completed my first play through. I say play, because this feels more like a narrative video game than a film, and I'm glad. This is not the future of movies. Its a fun novelty, and the best place it could have started is from the demented minds of Black Mirror.

    This obviously wont be everyones cup of tea, but (trans I'd like your thoughts) it went far smoother than I ever couldve imagined. Once you reach a dead end it back tracks to different possibility via dream or sleep or time travel(?) in very inventive ways. I feel like I saw a lot of different possible endings in one movie length sitting. You don't have to sit through the same scenes either, because they edited it to recap in seconds which path youre on then on to next option path. That was very well done and hurts my brain to try to map out that editing process.

    The choices...I expected them to be more direct. The first half of them are not that crazy. Like what cereal you want for breakfast or what music you want to listen to. Im very curious if a second play through those options change the path drastically or if at all.

    My best advice going in: First round, play it dead serious. Don't try to be funny or crazy with path selection, play it like you care. I say this because on the way back down revisiting the other options, the sillier ones are funny and take away from the good story at the core. This was just my experience.

    All in all, I had extremely low expectations, and now I want to see my wife play it and see what choices she makes.

  21. #121
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    Possibly relevant to your interests:

    - Ebert's essay on the future of interactive film from 1994

    - Siskel and Ebert discuss "Mr Payback," an interactive movie from 1995 (spoiler: they hated it)

    Personally, I think "interactive" movies have always been gimmicky as hell and violate the strengths of the medium. Having to make a series of choices while watching will always draw me out of a film and make me more aware of just how artificial the experience really is.

    Maybe that's the point of this episode, I dunno. But if it is it's a tired one.
    Last edited by Irish; 12-29-2018 at 06:14 PM.

  22. #122
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    I dont want to give it away, but Black Mirror was the perfect venue for this. It was easy for me to go with it because like I said, it felt like a game story and not a film. I rarely accept an alternate ending for a film, so it's a no brainer that I dont consider this a film. A film for me tells a story, a b c. This is a game story. This is not the future of film. Arcade game from Rick and Morty, sure.

  23. #123
    Evil mind, evil sword. Ivan Drago's Avatar
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    On my third full playthrough now. My strategy on the first one was to make the choices I would make, then make the exact opposite on the second playthrough, which ended abruptly on one of the sillier divergences that was crazy enough to make me want to go back to that moment and find out what happens when I make the alternate choice.

    That said, there's too many instances where I make the opposite choice from my first but the episode diverges into the first choice, anyway, that I can't help but feel like this would have been a great standalone episode without the CYA gimmick. It feels pointless to not give us another divergence if I as the controller select it, but perhaps, that's the point? It's a great narrative, though, and either way, I'm having fun.
    Last Five Films I've Seen (Out of 5)

    The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and the Horse (Mackesy, 2022) 4.5
    Puss In Boots: The Last Wish (Crawford, 2022) 4
    Confess, Fletch (Mottola, 2022) 3.5
    M3GAN (Johnstone, 2023) 3.5
    Turning Red (Shi, 2022) 4.5
    Tokyo Story (Ozu, 1953) 5

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  24. #124
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Ivan Drago (view post)
    On my third full playthrough now. My strategy on the first one was to make the choices I would make, then make the exact opposite on the second playthrough, which ended abruptly on one of the sillier divergences that was crazy enough to make me want to go back to that moment and find out what happens when I make the alternate choice.

    That said, there's too many instances where I make the opposite choice from my first but the episode diverges into the first choice, anyway, that I can't help but feel like this would have been a great standalone episode without the CYA gimmick. It feels pointless to not give us another divergence if I as the controller select it, but perhaps, that's the point? It's a great narrative, though, and either way, I'm having fun.
    I wondered if that was the case. I assume the cereal meant nothing lol. #frostedflakesbitch

  25. #125
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    Lol, I hit a brick wall on the first real choice (whether to accept a job offer) and the show made me to choose again. So I obstinately made the same exact choice. Then made me do it again, presenting only one option. That's interactive, baby!

    Quote Quoting Ivan Drago (view post)
    That said, there's too many instances where I make the opposite choice from my first but the episode diverges into the first choice, anyway, that I can't help but feel like this would have been a great standalone episode without the CYA gimmick. It feels pointless to not give us another divergence if I as the controller select it, but perhaps, that's the point?
    The same problem exists in story driven RPGs. I remember reading a dev blog from Bioware years ago where they talked about how branching story paths get out of control very easily, because it becomes too much work once the player is two or three levels deep. The size of the tree increases exponentially the farther you go.

    ETA: I paused the show to post and now I can't find my f'ing remote!
    Last edited by Irish; 12-29-2018 at 06:49 PM.

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