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Thread: Star Wars Anthology Discussion

  1. #926
    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    I honestly think a lot of this just boils down to they realized too late that they hired the wrong directors and sank a lot more money in the project than they should have. They need to re-evaluate these standalones as MCU origins instead of on the aberrance of the success of Rogue One. Dr. Strange and Ant-Man were hardly boffo box-office bonanzas, but they weren't trying to be.

  2. #927
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Let Mangold handle Boba Fett, and save the rest for later.

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  3. #928
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    I feel like many are looking at this from *their own* critical perspective why Solo wasn't successful, when in fact audiences generally liked it and the reviews aren't bad. There wasn't just much hype in the first place, a combination of weird release date (smack dabbin the middle of busy summer; Star Wars is really a winter event film!), being way too close to the last one, and also weirdly feeble marketing. I know I was interested more in seeing Rogue One (which I saw in its first week) than Solo (which I saw in like its third week here). There was just more urgency to see a brand-new group of characters in battle more than an origin of an iconic character without the iconic actor that makes that character famous in the first place.
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  4. #929
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Star Wars' biggest mistake with Solo isn't continuing the trend of having it come out in December.

    It was almost a trend for families to have a Star Wars night in December leading up to Christmas.

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  5. #930
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    - This is a rumor of a rumor and Collider has a mixed track record with "scoops," so I think we should take this pseudo-news with a grain of salt.

    - You can hand off big productions to rookies: "Spider-man", "Iron Man", "Winter Soldier," "The Avengers," and "Jurassic World" are prime examples.

    - But then taking an auteurist approach to studio movies in 2018, especially with a studio as controlling as Disney, doesn't make sense. The heavy demands of franchise filmmaking tends to swamp individual voices. For these sorts of movies, the producers have always mattered a whole lot more than the director.

    - Removing a genre film's core elements and saying it's generic is like ... well, no duh? If you take the cowboys, Indians, ad horses out of a western you're left with bright sun and a lotta dust. So what? "Star Wars" has become so ubiquitous that it's redefined 'space opera,' its own subgenre. Criticizing it for generic elements that it helped establish doesn't make sense.

    - "Star Wars" was already pastiche of pastiche; repackaged boomer nostalgia. That isn't what made it special to the tweens and teens that flocked to it and continue to do so. The cantina scene has been endlessly riffed on and ripped off, and had a cultural impact on its own. And that scene has nothing to do with either Jedi or the Force. So even if we do remove core elements, there's still something left that sparks the imagination. Or at least there was.

    - Marvel had ~50 years of material to fall back on and demonstrated an almost paranoid-level of fiscal responsibility when introducing new characters to a mass audience. (Check those low budgets on everything from "Iron Man" through "Ant Man.") This also allowed Marvel take so-called chances on one-off films (eg: "Guardians of the Galaxy", "Thor: Ragnarok") because the stakes were much lower.

    - Marvel also had no narrative baggage to deal with. "Star Wars" still had most of its principal actors alive and in demand. Even if LucasFilm wanted to closely emulate Marvel's success---by releasing one-off hero films before a big event film---they wouldn't have been able to. Everybody wanted to see Luke, Han, and Leia in the next movie.

    - "Solo's" reviews are bad for a wannabe blockbuster. It's sitting at ~71% on the Tomatometer. That's "Thor: Dark World" and "Iron Man 2" territory.

    - We can't claim that audiences generally liked it because the audience didn't show up. Based on average prices, "Solo" sold about 21 million tickets in the domestic market. That's a solid audience size if we're talking first run television, like an episode of "Roseanne," "NCIS," "Game of Thrones," or "The Walking Dead." It's bad in a theatrical context.

    - Total aside, but: "Star Wars" plays a little better in the US + western Europe than it does anywhere else. (This is for historical reasons; the original movie never opened in China, for instance, so there's no generational pull toward the franchise there.) Meanwhile, Marvel movies aren't as a big domestic draw as the trades, the blogs, and the fans would have us believe and tend to play better overseas. Go figure.

    - LucasFilm thought that switching up the release date would work because Pixar did it 20 years ago, when they moved from Thanksgiving-weekend to the middle of the summer. (And the same bullshit about "family" theatre going was spewed back then, too.) That generally worked out for Pixar, but then Pixar has a few advantages that LucasFilm doesn't.

    - Box office prognosticators (not here) wanna lay this off on the release date but I think that's too simple and too easy. And those guys never do the opposite---credit a date for any part of a film's success, despite obvious examples ("Deadpool," "It," "Thor: Ragnarok.")

    - As for "Solo," I haven't seen any interpretation that trotted out the obvious (granted, I haven't looked, either): Nobody wanted to pay 15 bucks to watch an unknown actor for 2 hours and nobody was excited by "A Ron Howard Film." The box office gurus spun this idea that the movie star was "dead" a few years ago, but I've always thought that was exactly wrong. Movie stars are the only thing propping up most of these franchises.

    - Lukewarm reactions to mediocre sequels hasn't hindered Disney franchises in the past (eg: some Marvel films, most recent Pixar films), so I doubt the accuracy of this rumor more than most. It doesn't seem like Kennedy et al had a very strong plan for "Star Wars" from the start, and, if anything, "Solo's" failure might have caused a typical level of corporate anxiety. That isn't really "news" and barely qualifies as a rumor.
    Last edited by Irish; 06-21-2018 at 08:16 AM.

  6. #931
    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    - Removing a genre film's core elements and saying it's generic is like ... well, no duh? If you take the cowboys, Indians, ad horses out of a western you're left with bright sun and a lotta dust. So what? "Star Wars" has become so ubiquitous that it's redefined 'space opera,' its own subgenre. Criticizing it for generic elements that it helped establish doesn't make sense.
    Except I said take out the Skywalker story (a specific group of characters and their narrative) and the Force (the only thing that is specifically Star Wars) and there is nothing else there to hang a cinematic universe on. Cowboys, Indians, and horses are elements of ALL Westerns, so I'm not really sure what point your analogy serves.
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  7. #932
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    - You can hand off big productions to rookies: "Spider-man", "Iron Man", "Winter Soldier," "The Avengers," and "Jurassic World" are prime examples.
    You consider Jon Faverau and Joss Whedon rookies?

  8. #933
    A Platypus Grouchy's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    You consider Jon Faverau and Joss Whedon rookies?
    Yeah, this surprised me as well.

    Quote Quoting Irish
    - Removing a genre film's core elements and saying it's generic is like ... well, no duh? If you take the cowboys, Indians, ad horses out of a western you're left with bright sun and a lotta dust. So what? "Star Wars" has become so ubiquitous that it's redefined 'space opera,' its own subgenre. Criticizing it for generic elements that it helped establish doesn't make sense.

    - "Star Wars" was already pastiche of pastiche; repackaged boomer nostalgia. That isn't what made it special to the tweens and teens that flocked to it and continue to do so. The cantina scene has been endlessly riffed on and ripped off, and had a cultural impact on its own. And that scene has nothing to do with either Jedi or the Force. So even if we do remove core elements, there's still something left that sparks the imagination. Or at least there was.
    I can't speak for TGM (who has an Ewok avatar) but I wasn't criticizing Star Wars. I love the universe. I'm just saying that any story you can tell in it will have to be space opera / western. Instead, a Marvel film could be a space opera / western (Guardians of the Galaxy), a spy film (Captain America), a supernatural adventure (Doctor Strange), a dark revenge thriller (The Punisher), etc. Marvel doesn't even use this diversity to its full potential in my opinion.

    As for the cantina scene, what are you talking about? Obi Wan is in that scene, he cuts off a monster's arm with a lightsaber.

  9. #934
    Moderator Dead & Messed Up's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    - Box office prognosticators (not here) wanna lay this off on the release date but I think that's too simple and too easy. And those guys never do the opposite---credit a date for any part of a film's success, despite obvious examples ("Deadpool," "It," "Thor: Ragnarok.")
    They generally don't, for sure, but sometimes they do. I remember b.o. pundits putting a lot of the success of Suicide Squad on it opening in a weak frame and continuing its success due to the autumn timing.

  10. #935
    Evil mind, evil sword. Ivan Drago's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Nothing at all. I think fans want this don't they?

    Personally, I want a Shadows of the Empire or Jedi Temple movie. Something with Kyle Katan.
    I want a kung-fu movie where all the characters fight in the style of Teras Kasi.

    The callback to that during Solo was probably the highest point of the movie for me.
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  11. #936
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Ivan Drago (view post)
    I want a kung-fu movie where all the characters fight in the style of Teras Kasi.

    The callback to that during Solo was probably the highest point of the movie for me.
    Heck yeah. Bossk name drop too.

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  12. #937
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Now there are reports saying films being put on hold is inaccurate. So whoTF knows what's really going on.
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  13. #938
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    Quote Quoting Skitch (view post)
    You consider Jon Faverau and Joss Whedon rookies?
    It's more like I'm saying you can spend 10 years in the minors and they'll still call you "rookie" when you get called up to the show. Same game, same mechanics. But the scale, expectations, pressures, and audience are different.

    In that sense, both Favreau and Whedon had limited experience when they got their Marvel gigs. Summer tentpoles have big casts, big crews, huge budgets, and scores of digital effects. So, there really isn't a comparison to be made between movies like "Zathura: A Space Adventure" (Favreau) or "Serenity" (Whedon) to "Iron Man" and "The Avengers."

    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Now there are reports saying films being put on hold is inaccurate. So whoTF knows what's really going on.
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  14. #939
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    Quote Quoting Irish (view post)
    It's more like I'm saying you can spend 10 years in the minors and they'll still call you "rookie" when you get called up to the show. Same game, same mechanics. But the scale, expectations, pressures, and audience are different.

    In that sense, both Favreau and Whedon had limited experience when they got their Marvel gigs. Summer tentpoles have big casts, big crews, huge budgets, and scores of digital effects. So, there really isn't a comparison to be made between movies like "Zathura: A Space Adventure" (Favreau) or "Serenity" (Whedon) to "Iron Man" and "The Avengers."
    Ah, I get you now. I often wonder about that - people like Scorsese or De Palma earned their chops doing lots of low and medium budget films before they did their first blockbusters. Now it seems like headhunting has gotten to a point where studios burn young filmmakers with franchises before they can even find their proper voice.

    Of course, they could always say no, but would you?

  15. #940
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    Ah, I get you now. I often wonder about that - people like Scorsese or De Palma earned their chops doing lots of low and medium budget films before they did their first blockbusters. Now it seems like headhunting has gotten to a point where studios burn young filmmakers with franchises before they can even find their proper voice.

    Of course, they could always say no, but would you?
    I think that's how studios want it, since they now view a lot of these franchises more like television shows, where the producers have creative control and the directors are there to direct actors and not challenge the core goals of the franchise. I'm sure the intimidation factor is not an accidental element of this. "You made a million dollar movie? Good, we have an opportunity for you to direct a 200 million dollar movie about a superperson, you have to make everyone happy, it has to open domestically and internationally, and isn't this a great thing we're giving you? And by the way, don't fuck it up, small potato."

  16. #941
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    More Rumors- The Obi Wan movie will launch on Disney's streaming service.
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    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
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  17. #942
    Administrator Ezee E's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    More Rumors- The Obi Wan movie will launch on Disney's streaming service.
    That's quite the way to get everyone to at least join for a month for $15.

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  18. #943
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    Wow, what a step down in prestige for the series that would be.
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  19. #944
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    Quote Quoting D_Davis (view post)
    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
    Quote Quoting TGM (view post)
    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  20. #945
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    Quote Quoting Lazlo (view post)
    Wow, what a step down in prestige for the series that would be.
    My thoughts exactly.

    Billion dollar theatrical blockbusters to the modern equivalent of DTV, in 5 years.

  21. #946
    collecting tapes Skitch's Avatar
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    For the millionth time...the theater system (in Murica) will not survive if they dont start getting rid of asshole theater goers.

  22. #947
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    That interview really makes Kathleen Kennedy look like she has no idea what she's doing.

  23. #948
    Replacing Luck Since 1984 Dukefrukem's Avatar
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    Quote Quoting Grouchy (view post)
    That interview really makes Kathleen Kennedy look like she has no idea what she's doing.
    Right?? Compare this to when Feige speaks.
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    Uwe Boll movies > all Marvel U movies
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    I work in grocery. I have not gotten sick. My fellow employees have not gotten sick. If the virus were even remotely as contagious as its being presented as, why haven’t entire store staffs who come into contact with hundreds of people per day, thousands per week, all falling ill in mass nationwide?

  24. #949
    Sunrise, Sunset Wryan's Avatar
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    Wasn't there a report about Miller and Lord "crossing" Kennedy? And that this was one of the things that led to their ouster?

    She's "baked in" at this point. She could start word-salading like Trump and she'd still have her seat at the table.
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  25. #950
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    Quote Quoting Dukefrukem (view post)
    Right?? Compare this to when Feige speaks.
    Eh, to be fair she's speaking extemporaneously at a fan event / press line / red carpet. Of course she's gonna spew some bullshit.

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